Exercise Vajra Shakti

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Postby pranavhp » 10 May 2005 20:03

If IA had planned this exercise, then it should have used whatever the Arjuns it could find.

Why IA does not use them during exercises? I do not see any mobility problems during these kinds of events.

These events are very good opportunities for regular soldiers to use new tanks and give back the report.

At least if nothing else, I would have seen few more Arjun tank pictures.

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Postby Singha » 11 May 2005 08:50

few months back CCS approved imagery interpretation setups for each IA division HQ down from the current Area HQ 2 levels above. Looks like this exercise is the first where a Div HQ got such a facility and is a precursor for general deployment.

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Postby Rajit Ojha » 11 May 2005 09:12

If IA had planned this exercise, then it should have used whatever the Arjuns it could find.

Why IA does not use them during exercises? I do not see any mobility problems during these kinds of events.

These events are very good opportunities for regular soldiers to use new tanks and give back the report.

At least if nothing else, I would have seen few more Arjun tank pictures.


Well, maybe because it has something to do with the fact that no Armoured Corps Officer wants the damn thing! Whatever the merits of the Arjun, perception is stronger than reality always, and the Arjun is proof that when the Armed Forces want to play politics they can. Anyway, all this is old hat....good to see the Army giving more details and being more and more PR friendly. Maybe one day they will change enough to use the Arjuns :-o

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Postby uddu » 11 May 2005 14:41


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Postby vishal » 11 May 2005 15:07

Read the text in this page
http://specials.rediff.com/news/2005/may/10sld03.htm

Excerpt: "For the first time, army tested its battlefield satellite real-time imagery to map the entire built up terrain of the exercise area comprising Jalandhar and its outlying areas like Nawashahr, Nakodar and Moga."

DDM or something the IA let slip intentionally to let the world at large know what it has in the kitchen???

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Postby Singha » 11 May 2005 15:34

Cold Start takes into account fighting thru build up areas like towns and villages because entire punjab and north sindh is heavily populated now.
the world knows what TES is capable of - those that need to know. they also have a fair idea what cartosat-1 and 2 are capable of.

But we do need a dedicated constellation of :
1. GLONASS-mki for precision guidance and navigation
2. 3 x NARADA-mki for encrypted, on demand, plentiful commlinks
3. 3xTES-2 for 0.5m and 3xTES-3 for 0.25m imint
4. SHAKUNI-1 and SHAKUNI-2 dedicated ELINT sats
5. SHESHNAG-1 & 2 radar sats for sea surveillance

so a lot of work remains before we reach a comfortable position. GSLV mk2
launches must be accelerated and satellite division undergo huge expansion and funding. It also includes a dedicated military fab purchased from either singapore or taiwan with japanese fab equipment.

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Postby Manu » 11 May 2005 15:51

A more humble opinion, if you will:

The Cold Start Doctrine lists massed/concentrated fire power as a key requirement.

We need Artillery Guns, in numbers and sometime this century. That is, if it does not displease her majesty and Monsieur Chidambaram (of Madras Law College & Harvard fame) too much.

Slow and unsteady looses the race.

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Postby Hitesh » 11 May 2005 17:05

What is interesting to me is how the IA has modeled the field the IA uses for exercises after Pakistan's bundhs. See the canals and sandbars IA created to mimic the Pakistan's line of defences. I hope they are of the same depth as Pakistan's line of defenses. I wonder if the IA has mined the area in the field of exercise to properly stimulate a true life size future Indo-Paki battlefield. I wonder how did the IA fare crossing the canals and breaching the minefields and overcoming the machine gunners and artillery the opposing side was throwing against them. Did the exercise also take place at night?

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Postby Babui » 11 May 2005 20:20

The first pic in the ReDiff series has 2 tanks. In big white letters on the tanks are the words "ATAL" and "BHAGA". Is it the names of the tank commanders? some kind of training exercise signals (for safety)? Is it common among all tank units? Anybody has an idea........what could be the reason for the letters? Just curious........ :?:

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Postby Khalsa » 12 May 2005 13:27

Common practice among armoured and mechanised units to personally name their steeds.

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Postby saty » 12 May 2005 13:53

Hitesh wrote: Did the exercise also take place at night?


The fight is simulated, so it does not take into account actual who keeps their head under fire scenario's. It's like a garngutan chess board. Pieces are moved and removed on the basis of rules (which model real life as closely as possible) The idea is practicing startegy rather than firefight.

The reports clearly state they did (check the news folders), a point was also getting practice with night vision equipments.

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Postby AmanC » 12 May 2005 18:26

The tanks/BMPs are named after their drivers.

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Exercise Vajra Shakti Video

Postby Kakarat » 13 May 2005 06:50


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Postby Singha » 13 May 2005 08:42

Victor @ AFM

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050512/main5.htm

Army’s tactical network goes hi tech
Vijay Mohan
Tribune News Service

Gag (Jalandhar), May 11
In a bunker beneath the swirling dust and sun-baked plains of Punjab, a group of Army officers in battle fatigues sit before a bank of computers, processing information flowing in on data lines from various formations deployed in the field for operations.

In an adjacent bunker, with its walls covered with maps, a commander grazes at a projector screen showing a video image being transmitted from an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) flying overhead, checks a blow-up picture downloaded from a satellite and printed in a mobile centre a few minutes ago and compares it with a picture of the same area taken a few hours ago.

Information from other formations about their location, movement and feedback from their own surveillance set-up, data from UAV and the latest satellite imagery on enemy positions and movements give the commander an instant picture of the scenario in his theatre. This enables him to drastically cut down on the time frame required to make a comprehensive assessment of the emerging situation and take tactical decisions on deployment and movements which are passed down the line equally fast.

This is the new face of the Army’s command and control mechanism battlefield management system and in an operational environment. This emerges from its approach towards network-centric warfare on which its new doctrine for a short and intense war is based upon. This is a drastic shift from the earlier situation, where commanders in the field had to rely on information which was several hours or even days old and often had no visual references.

A visit to the well concealed tactical headquarters set up by 11 Corps for the conduct of Exercise Vajra Shakti here showed the Army’s growing emphasis on modern equipment, information technology and communication modes for achieving information domination on the battlefield.

One of the most striking aspects of the exhibition was the unveiling of the imagery interpretation vehicle (IIV) and the imagery printing vehicle (IPV). Mounted on an 8-wheeler TATRA vehicle, the canisterised, air-conditioned IIV can download pictures directly from a satellite and process them. These pictures can be printed by the IPV with the print size being up to about three feet in width and length. These vehicles can function independently under any field conditions.

Another innovation displayed was the Simputer, a palm top device fitted with a miniature camera. The simputer can transmit data and pictures from a recce team back to an operations centre over a radio network.

The Israeli-made long range recce and observation system provides day and night surveillance capability for tracking movements of men and vehicles up to a distance of about 13 km. Mounted on a TATRA truck, it consists of a night camera, laser range finder and electronic surveillance equipment which culminate into video images for commanders to view. The system can also be used for target acquisition and directing artillery fire.

Hand held thermal imagers for detecting movements at night, Elta battlefield Surveillance Radar for getting ranges and bearings of intended targets and emergency radio relay terminals mounted on jeeps are among other recently introduced equipment adding to the Army’s information warfare capability.

To manage these assets and make optimum use of what the Army is terming as force multipliers, an establishment called Force Multiplier Command Post (FMCP) has been set up at tactical headquarters. “While setting up Tactical Headquarters is an existing measure when a formation is deployed in the field, the FMCP is meant to serve as a mid-point on the ‘sensor to shooter’ link,” an officer said during a briefing. “It is connected to all the surveillance and reconnaissance assets as well as formations and channelises the flow of data and information,” he added.

George J

Postby George J » 13 May 2005 09:08

Singha wrote:..........One of the most striking aspects of the exhibition was the unveiling of the imagery interpretation vehicle (IIV) and the imagery printing vehicle (IPV). Mounted on an 8-wheeler TATRA vehicle, the canisterised, air-conditioned IIV can download pictures directly from a satellite and process them. These pictures can be printed by the IPV with the print size being up to about three feet in width and length. These vehicles can function independently under any field conditions..........


Hmmm HP DesignJet 500 large format printer does 21sq ft in an hour (best quality-which is what you would need to print PICS...especially sat pic) so a 9sq ft would take about 25 mins? And thats at 1200 x 1200 dpi, if you want 2400 x 1200 dpi you need the DesignJet 800. And they are really messy and finicky mofos especially about keeping the feed lines clean and preventing the printer heads from drying up.

And using something like this in the field???? How far is the nearest Staples from Jalandhar? Incase you run out of those pesky print cartridges.

With all this tech they should think of some sort of large format touch screen rather than wasting their time trying to print pics ....imaging what a difference 25 mins can make in a realtime war situation.

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Postby Singha » 13 May 2005 09:35

Does any equipment offer the scope of selecting which areas to print in high res and the rest can be filler in 600x800 res ? that way imagery analyst can mark out interesting areas while the outhouse can be blurred.

Why dont they just take it across on a portable HDD and use a LCD projector to display it on the wall like a PPT image. ? some sw's even allow to mark such maps I think using a tablet PC.

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Postby Jagan » 13 May 2005 09:37

Who said they were using Design Jets and Catridges? They could well be using equipment that would equip a photo lab. those would churn out large formt prints in seconds.

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Postby Singha » 13 May 2005 10:17

A huge Tatra truck with container could certainly accomodate A large photo lab and associated generator.

Its all GJ's fault! isolate him, feed him crow soup!
:evil:

http://www.cymbolic.com/lightjet500XL.html
this could produce a useable table map in around 5 mins.
I am sure better gear is available for those willing to dish out big bucks.

George J

Postby George J » 13 May 2005 20:35

No Soup for you!!!
Read your own link man

Resolution

Spatial Resolution
Continuous-tone: 200, 300 dpi, apparent half-tone resolution is 4,000 dpi


300 dpi for a sat image whose best resolution is 8 ft????? I want my money back!!!!!

Jagan:
Oh yeah like what equipment are you talking about? And we want TIME to print too. Remember all this is online realtime stuff....your major saahab will be blown to simthereens while we wait for Havaldar to print up a super crisp image on his AGFA large format photo printer.

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Postby Jagan » 13 May 2005 20:47

George J wrote:
Jagan:
Oh yeah like what equipment are you talking about? And we want TIME to print too. Remember all this is online realtime stuff....your major saahab will be blown to simthereens while we wait for Havaldar to print up a super crisp image on his AGFA large format photo printer.


George ol boy, I routinely print poster sized pictures at my local neighbourhood 'studio' in our galli - and that can fit in an Auto Trailer. That machine can print 32"x40" as far as I know. and it costs Just about Rs 300-500 for such a print :P And They print them directly off jpeg files from a CD.

Put in a generator, AC, stool and chair for havaldar saab, and some special equipment for the army and you can churn out 9sqft prints in matter of minutes. dont need any deskjet or crummy catridges to go with them.

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Postby Manne » 13 May 2005 20:51

It can print != only printouts are used.
One would imagine these IxVs to be away from the battle scene.

George J

Postby George J » 13 May 2005 20:57

Jagan wrote:George ol boy, I routinely print poster sized pictures at my local neighbourhood 'studio' in our galli - and that can fit in an Auto Trailer. That machine can print 32"x40" as far as I know. and it costs Just about Rs 300-500 for such a print :P And They print them directly off jpeg files from a CD.


Monay....you give him your CD and go home...next day you get your prints...thats how it gonna work in a conflict. Thats why specfically asked you about the time. Also JPEG is a lossy compression format. Its good for prints of rust buckets that you called a/c :twisted: but not when you need hi rez imagery.

Psst...does anyone know the format and size of sat imagery?

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Postby Dileep » 13 May 2005 21:10

300 dpi for a sat image whose best resolution is 8 ft????? I want my money back!!!!!

Isn't the sat images halftone? And the quote says 4000dpi for half tone.

Also an analysis on visual perception here http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/printer-ppi/

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Postby Dileep » 13 May 2005 21:16

Monay....you give him your CD and go home...next day you get your prints

Achaayaa, the printer actually prints an 8X10 photo in under a minute. the next day thing is just for scheduling jobs.

Now, I wouldn't imagine that a chemical photo printer would be used in war zone. Most probably it will be inkjet onlee, because, considering all printing techies, that would give the best for the field. JMO

George J

Postby George J » 13 May 2005 21:46

Dileep wrote:Also an analysis on visual perception here http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/printer-ppi/


Monay....your link shows that 600 dpi produces an image sharp enough to see the eye of the gopher. Given that min resolvable object on the IMINT is 8 feet, imagine how important printing high quality imagery is gonna be. Besides Half one works for newspapers...you want that quality for your IMINT?

Printing 8 X 10 in under a min is one thing, but printing 36 X 36. Even if you split it into 9 frames you still only get a 24x30 in about 9 mins....but what bout 3 ft sq??

Injets (at the size being talked about) are great but even in the civilian environment that we use them in...they are a pain...you have to make sure the lines are always free from air bubbles...takes about 4 hrs of maintainance a week...even if you DONT use it.

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Postby Jagan » 13 May 2005 21:47

George J wrote:Monay....you give him your CD and go home...next day you get your prints...thats how it gonna work in a conflict. Thats why specfically asked you about the time. Also JPEG is a lossy compression format. Its good for prints of rust buckets that you called a/c :twisted: but not when you need hi rez imagery.


Dont jump the gun. Things work different in India. I go give my CD.. Stand for ten minutes, take my prints and leave. Whats does the CD have? mostly photos that i have taken scanned as 20MB+ TIFF Files using a negative scanner. The color lab can print from JPEGs, BMPs, TIFFS , you name it.

Added Later: Its not one print in ten minutes - its a potential 10-15 8x10 prints or larger in that 10 min (assuming they are different images).

The color lab can print say 15-20 copies of the same photo at 8x10 size in under a Minute if required

Inkjets dont even come close...

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Postby Dileep » 13 May 2005 21:59

Besides Half one works for newspapers...you want that quality for your IMINT?
Achaayaa, that qualifies for another dose of your favourite dish!

Any raster hardcopy device prints photos in halftone onlee AFAIK, even the optical photo printer of Kodak/Fuji. The only printer that prints continuously varying tone is the chemical image printer of the previous generation (that prints from film negative). Being said that, the grains of the photo paper does create an illusion of continuously varying image even while the laser that writes the image itself is halftone.

Coming back to IPV, I can't imagine them being chemical photo paper based. That printer needs warm up time, needs at least two chemical cartridges etc. The inkjet can have an integrated cartridge that has the ink and printhead that is replaceable in field. Even laser have the optics and laser source in the main assy, which is rather sensitive. My bet is still on inkjet.


George J

Postby George J » 13 May 2005 22:15

Ok half tone..full tone..dial tone are all greek to me...but hey it only takes a dose of crow soup to make you an expert on all subjects...

http://www.mydesignprimer.com/printing/50017.html
The halftone screen frequency, or linescreen, that one uses is dependent on the capabilities of the press and the paper that will be used to print a project. Presses that print newspapers are only capable of handling a low linescreen like 85 lines per inch (lpi). Quality magazines use linescreens of 150lpi and up. The finer the linescreen (the more dots per inch), the better the reproduction quality and detail you'll see in the image.


Boss even though IMINT 'maybe' B&W, its beauty lies in the details..

There is more on the same page about resolution...but we cant argue semantics unless we know what the format, resolution of even commercial sat imageries is.

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Postby Dileep » 13 May 2005 22:32

More crow soup anyone?

The name half-tone came from the original technique to print photos using letterpress blocks. They used a silk screen to divide the photo into dots, and the chemical etching created dots that vary in size according to the shade of grey in the original image. In general the term half tone means making an illusion of luminous difference by varying the area o a fixed color spot. The bigger the spot, the darker (in ink print) it appears and vice versa. This applies to printing plates used in offset printing (that includes newspaper to the fine quality prints of fashion magazines), laser printers, inkjet printers and now even the photo printers.

The non half tone technique is to create a continuously varying color on the paper, which is half achieved in the film printing process. In fact the color print has grains of fixed color onlee, so even that is half tone.

The finer DPI is important for line art, including text, where you have sharply defined edges. the eye can in fact see differences upto 600+dpi. The higher DPI for halftone is produced by overlapping dots. This simply means that the ink/laser dot is bigger than the resolution of the X/Y movement of the head. I would imagine the printed image would look even better than a chemical+laser printed image on photo paper.

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Postby Katare » 13 May 2005 23:22

Who said that printed images are needed for real time decision-making? :roll:
Who said they are not using large video screen/projectors in IIV for real time decision-making? :roll:
The printing may be only for record keeping or for any other purposes like for other small field formations without large-scale screens, small platoon of Special Forces taking a paper copy with them or something like that. :twisted:

GJ man can create controversies outa of anything! :evil:

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Postby Dileep » 13 May 2005 23:24

The printing may be only for record keeping or for any other purposes like for other small field formations without large-scale screens, small platoon of Special Forces taking a paper copy with them or something like that.

I wonder why do you need a whole seperate TATRA for that? :roll:

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Postby Katare » 13 May 2005 23:28

For printing large size images I guess, thats waht the name suggests 8)

George J

Postby George J » 13 May 2005 23:35

Dileep:
Umm what does anything you have posted in your last thread add to the discussion? it simply states what its stated in your first link the eye can distinguish upto 600 dpi. The moot point still remains, are all IMINT B&W or Greyscale? (Cartosat-1's PAN takes 10 bit B&W stereoscopic pics). If Greyscale is 8 bit @ 256 then a 10 bit image is 1024 colors. What you see on your 96 ppi monitor does not translate into whats printed.

If they are B&W images (1bit) then to print an apparent res of 4000 dpi you would need an image of that res. If they are grey scale then you would need 8000 dpi. Does the PAN do that much? Finally all this mumbo jumbo does not answer the question about whats the resolution required to see an object 8 ft across and what kinda printer would be need to print that in th field and how long would it take.

I am sure you know a lot or can google a lot about half tone printing techniques. But the discussion (as I had started it) is about what can be done in the field and you have given no evidence to support the discussion...except add to the confusion.

George J

Postby George J » 13 May 2005 23:40

katare:
You need some controversy for a lazy friday afternoon. but yeah if you need a separate vehicle to print and you print 3 ft sq images then I guess its gonna be done frequently and on a large scale. Besides unlike the Canberra/Mig-25 thats actually use large format film that needs postprocessing all this is gonna realtime and so I guess hard copies will be very important to keep plan and record all actions/inactions.

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Postby Dileep » 13 May 2005 23:49

I am sure you know a lot or can google a lot about half tone printing techniques. But the discussion (as I had started it) is about what can be done in the field and you have given no evidence to support the discussion...except add to the confusion

What I am saying is, all it needs is 600dpi three color printhead to print any image that need to be read by naked human eye. More resolution is irrelevant, since the human eye can not distinguish it.

Now, I can anticipate the question, then why talk about the 1440dpi of inkjet and the said 4000dpi etc. They are mere technicalities to achieve the said three color 600 dpi net result. I can explain this further, but that is more flame bait, which I am not particularly interested to do.

Let us take a step back: We started with a speculation on what is inside the IPV unit. The speculated options were:

1. A Photo printer, like the Fuji printer in the color lab
2. A color laser prnter
3. An Inkjet printer. (My vote here)

We can discuss this till all of us get old and are able to visit the actual IPV in the defense museum in Bangalore,Kerala, and find that it is another thing altogether in that vehicle. That is unless someone who actually know what is inside.

And why I tried to explain the printing technology? Because I saw obviously incorrect ideas being expressed. Confusing? Maybe! Maybe not!

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Postby Raman » 14 May 2005 00:10

The following link is useful in this discussion:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/Amberish.html
One can observe the size of the photos/maps under consideration.

AFAIK, it's not just "naked eye" --- the photo interpretation people often use strong magnification to peer at the details of already enlarged photographs.
It is worse than looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack, even though the photographs are enlarged.

"We go through the photographs to look literally for specks that might well have just been dirt," said Squadron Leader Chandla. But the speck could also be something foreign on the barren mountains, such as enemy tracks, or an enemy camp or a gun position.

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Postby Sudhir » 14 May 2005 00:11

Jagan wrote:
George J wrote:Monay....you give him your CD and go home...next day you get your prints...thats how it gonna work in a conflict. Thats why specfically asked you about the time. Also JPEG is a lossy compression format. Its good for prints of rust buckets that you called a/c :twisted: but not when you need hi rez imagery.


Dont jump the gun. Things work different in India. I go give my CD.. Stand for ten minutes, take my prints and leave. Whats does the CD have? mostly photos that i have taken scanned as 20MB+ TIFF Files using a negative scanner. The color lab can print from JPEGs, BMPs, TIFFS , you name it.

Added Later: Its not one print in ten minutes - its a potential 10-15 8x10 prints or larger in that 10 min (assuming they are different images).

The color lab can print say 15-20 copies of the same photo at 8x10 size in under a Minute if required

Inkjets dont even come close...



Good stuff. How much does that cost, and is it photo quality?

-- 4x6
-- 8x10 ?

Which city? I am going to be in Bangalore in June and this could be way cheaper than snapfish or my trusty (but expensive) Cannon photoprinter.

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Postby Dileep » 14 May 2005 00:36

AFAIK, it's not just "naked eye" --- the photo interpretation people often use strong magnification to peer at the details of already enlarged photographs

The electronic zooming would give a much better performance in magnification than the magnifying glass approach. The conceivable method would be for the commander to ask for magnification of certain area, either on screen, or by another print. The photo interpret you mentioned are referring to the film based recce pix. In fact any conceivable digital printing technology can support optical magnification IMHO

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Postby Yerna » 14 May 2005 00:44

One problem I see with using projectors against printed images is that there can be only one or at max two projectors in a Tatra truck. This means that only two images at max can be analyzed at a given time compared to 10 or so officers analyzing 10 printed maps/pictures of battlefield at the same time and reporting to the commander.

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Postby Jagan » 14 May 2005 00:44

Sudhir wrote:Good stuff. How much does that cost, and is it photo quality?

-- 4x6
-- 8x10 ?

Which city? I am going to be in Bangalore in June and this could be way cheaper than snapfish or my trusty (but expensive) Cannon photoprinter.


Sudhir,

This is in Hyderabad. Photo Quality on Photographic Paper. 4x6 costs Rs 4.25 8x10 costs Rs 20. 16x10 costs Rs 80. In larger metros, add a premium to these prices and work it out accordingly.

Jagan


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