Exercise Garuda-II: Istres AFB, France

Laks
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Postby Laks » 28 Jun 2005 23:46

Nice partner swapping (oops) of Il-78s with Mirage 2k and Su-27 with C-135.

L'armee de l'air site has been updated too! Some the above photos in the official link. They engaged in mutual air defense exercises of increasing difficulty + mid-aur refuelling with the bigbirds.

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Postby JaiS » 01 Jul 2005 16:26


eklavya
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Postby eklavya » 01 Jul 2005 22:24

JaiS wrote:Su30 Tribute ...


Isn't it just a beauty ... mid-flight. Thanks for the link.

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Postby D_Prem » 01 Jul 2005 23:10

Wonderful pics! but I wonder how well our planes did against the French ones? I guess we'll have to wait for the 'AAR' reports to come out.

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Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2005 07:10

eklavya wrote:
JaiS wrote:Su30 Tribute ...


Isn't it just a beauty ... mid-flight. Thanks for the link.


This is one of the most unusual and beautiful pics I have seen

http://robin.julien.free.fr/Su30/IMG_8186_web.JPG

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Postby Div » 03 Jul 2005 10:21

Shiv, what did you find unusual?

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Postby shiv » 04 Jul 2005 08:39

Div wrote:Shiv, what did you find unusual?


It is extremely unusual to get a really good picture of a plane from that angle given the constraints that most aircraft enthusiast photographers face.

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Postby putnanja » 04 Jul 2005 08:48

Doesnt that look as though it was taken from air?

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Postby shiv » 04 Jul 2005 09:06

RaviBg wrote:Doesnt that look as though it was taken from air?


Looking at all the other pics - I suspect it was taken from the ground after takeoff - as the plane banked.

That is why you have a sky background and not a terra background.

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Postby SRay » 04 Jul 2005 12:55

Depends. I too thought that this was an aerial pic at first - from a plane slightly below the subject. But i'm having second thoughts now... if it is indeed from the ground, then this is a very unusual pic - it must have been taken just as the plane was lifting up.

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Postby bhavani » 04 Jul 2005 14:01

Shiv,

I also thought that there was something unusual about the pic. But cant a picture of this type be taken from an another plane at some low level.

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Postby shiv » 04 Jul 2005 14:13

bhavani wrote:Shiv,

I also thought that there was something unusual about the pic. But cant a picture of this type be taken from an another plane at some low level.


That angle is unusual even in an air to air picture - but it is often seen as a brief glimpse as part of a video as a plane takes off. Since I spend a great deal of time watching such videos it struck me that a still at the right moment might show the top of the aircraft as well as sky in the background.

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Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2005 15:46

more pix at bottom of this link:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 061&page=2

finally some pix of the "large hunters" looming up through the heat haze.

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Postby Rustom » 05 Jul 2005 01:12

Here are some shots that I found on airliners.net

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.s ... arch=India - Air Force&placesearch=Istres - Le Tube (LFMI)&specialsearch=MILITARY&countrysearch=France

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/872713/L/ - this one is amazing.

Can we please have a compilation of all the shots....its pretty hard clicking on each link/URL & going through pages & pages...also, any idea about the result? :) ......Oh & I was going through some of the pics....good to see that we FINALLY have a shot of our Mk1's taken from the top. :D

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Postby SRay » 05 Jul 2005 04:56

Reposting Rustom's above airliners.net link in a shorter url form here:

http://doiop.com/airliners.india.photos

check out doiop.com or tinyurl.com for shortening urls to post them.

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Postby Aditya_M » 05 Jul 2005 10:14

From an online forum, translated by a French member:

The exercice make the front page of Air&Cosmos mag' this week. Long article.

In few words:

- India showed its brilliant ability to project its forces far away
- first the exercice was to learn to work together with comon missions, cross refuelling, and patrols with M2000C (RDI)
- then, it became more and more complex with fight visual range 1 vs 2 then 2 vs 2 with simulated fires of Magic2 and AA-11 Archer.
- After the 24th of june, the arrival of M2000-5 and more and more complex missions. First, comon patrols then BVR simulated fights with Mica's and R-77. The problem was the evaluations, it was solved with SLPRM mission recording system for french side, and Indian side GPS recording plus Otaris software aboard a E-3F AWACS which recorded every radar signatures. I worked well, just that they had to stay concentrated for long debriefing at the end of the day, sometime 2 or 3 hours...
- some comon 'sky forbiden' mission were made in comon with the participation of some M2000N and Tucano to simulate the intruders.
- In 8 days, 160 fight sorties, 2 to 4 each days: 80 for the 2000, 74 for the SU30, 4 for the E3-F and 4 for C-135FR as well as Il-78
- unanimous comment: "Indians showed a outstanding proffessionalism as well as a amazing adaptation ability with already good knowledges of OTAN procedures".
"It was simply a pleasure to work with them. On the ground or on the air, the are precise and serious as well as friendly and great comarad".
- French pilots learnt to know the SU30K better. "A powerfull and very manoeuvrable weapon system, which performs as well as the 2000 RDI but inferior to the 2000-5 RDY in its K version.
In close combat, the Mirage is more 'nervous' than the Sukhoi, "the edge must be tacken in the first minute or then, the power and the manoeuvrability of the Su-30 make the difference".


(verbatim - i.e. Copy-Pasted :P )

Magazine Cover

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Postby Aditya G » 05 Jul 2005 23:20

The problem was the evaluations, it was solved with SLPRM mission recording system for french side, and Indian side GPS recording plus Otaris software aboard a E-3F AWACS which recorded every radar signatures.

ACMI?

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Postby Aditya G » 05 Jul 2005 23:27

This one is a Su-27:

Image

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Postby sudipn » 06 Jul 2005 02:12

Aditya_M wrote:From an online forum, translated by a French member:

- French pilots learnt to know the SU30K better. "A powerfull and very manoeuvrable weapon system, which performs as well as the 2000 RDI but inferior to the 2000-5 RDY in its K version.
Magazine Cover

well if i am not mistaken the 2000-5 K version is basically installed not on 2000-5's but 2000-9's or 2000-5(markII)
The Mirage 2000-5's RDY version K doppler radar can simultaneously detect up to 24 targets and track the eight highest priority threats.
which would be equivalent to the su-30mki radar.... "RDY-2" radar contains the high-power "Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU)" designed for the Rafale, and an improved countermeasures suite with a new lowband jammer. The RDY-2 is similar to the original RDY, but features two new air-to-ground modes, including a high-resolution "synthetic aperture radar (SAR)" imaging mode.....
though it would be great to know if this radar operates in the LFI mode .....
supporting URL's

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mirage/mirage9.html
http://srirangan.net/india-defence/node/232

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Postby Katare » 06 Jul 2005 05:02

Sudip, I thought the author meant Sukhoi 30 in its 'K' version is infirior to 2k-5 with RDY radar.

You can read it either way! :roll:

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Postby Babui » 06 Jul 2005 05:23

OTAN procedures ?!!

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Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2005 06:53

Babui wrote:OTAN procedures ?!!


NATO in French

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Postby Singha » 06 Jul 2005 09:52

he obviously meant the N001 Myech radar is inferior to the RDY on 2000-5. I believe the RDY-2 was onlee on the UAE M2K-9 (aka 2005-mk2).

just raw range and power isnt the only yardstick, sophistication also counts and in this the leading western radars have always been better - one of the reasons why we went to time and expense of developing the back end of Bars ourself.

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Postby Cybaru » 06 Jul 2005 10:06

But you are assuming that the radars were operating at full power or all modes were active ...

With OTAN awacs have huge amount of passive esm stuff. Not sure what cards IAF will play.

For the french, this works as marketing opportunity that they have to capatilize on. If they screw this up, their next order goes down the drain.

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Postby Logan » 06 Jul 2005 10:33

Aditya G wrote:
The problem was the evaluations, it was solved with SLPRM mission recording system for french side, and Indian side GPS recording plus Otaris software aboard a E-3F AWACS which recorded every radar signatures.

ACMI?

SLPRM is an onboard mission planning system developed by Sagem. It includes detailed post flight analysis of aircraft signatures and movement. Used on all French aircraft during exercises to determine kills. It was originally developed for Rafale IIRC.
Indian pilots on the other hand use portable GPS receivers that produce a track file of the aircraft. The aircraft flight can be plotted throughout and then used to determine kills. French pilots during Garuda I refused to wear GPS receivers IIRC also. They instead used the SLPRM.

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Postby Singha » 06 Jul 2005 11:25

this SLRPM thing prolly records a whole lotta more stuff than just a series of GPS 3d co-ords. Time we got our paws on such stuff ?
where do the Ehud ACMI pods fit into our game ? Does it need Ehud ground equipment (at tacde) to work ?

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Postby Khalsa » 06 Jul 2005 14:37

shiv wrote:
Babui wrote:OTAN procedures ?!!


NATO in French


hey ShiV
when you are free or have some time. Write down OTAN on a piece of paper.
Look at it through a mirror. Reads NATO
:-)

always thought why they wrote it ulta pulta.... i mean which guys was gonna read OTAN in his rear view mirror....
never knew it was in French

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Postby Laks » 06 Jul 2005 15:00

OTAN = Organisation du Traite de l'Atlantique Nord. Many French qualifying adjectives come after the noun - 'l'annee prochaine' literally translates as 'Year Next' - not some weird mirror logic. As in any other language there are exceptional cases to this.

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Postby Singha » 06 Jul 2005 16:20

visitors report to Istres...

http://franknoort.nl/istres/

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Postby daulat » 07 Jul 2005 01:01

Singha wrote:visitors report to Istres...

http://franknoort.nl/istres/


boy, these guys are serious geeks! god bless 'em :)

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Postby sudipn » 07 Jul 2005 01:15

Singha wrote:he obviously meant the N001 Myech radar is inferior to the RDY on 2000-5. I believe the RDY-2 was onlee on the UAE M2K-9 (aka 2005-mk2).

just raw range and power isnt the only yardstick, sophistication also counts and in this the leading western radars have always been better - one of the reasons why we went to time and expense of developing the back end of Bars ourself.


I would not be surprised if the 2000-5 RDY was the RDY-2...
ne ways here is a quick refral of the two radars which were pitted against each other........

RDY radar
Thomson-CSF/Detexis quote the look-up,look-down, shoot-up,shoot-down performance as being 70 km. In actual practice engagements conducted by the French AdlA, RDY has demonstrated it´s ability to detect, reliably, fighter size targets at 140 km.

N001VE fire-control radar
orignal range 100km, engage 2 targets simultaneously

these two radars are very closely matched... even though the RDY radar says it has a 140 km range one has to understand that it is for detection only.. the track range is 70kms...i am not too sure of the N001VE track range... but ne ways these two radars do seem to be verry closely matched... except for the fact that due to its inherently large size the su-30 would be a bigger radar target ...aand due to a bigger radar would radiate more energy..

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Postby Singha » 07 Jul 2005 01:31

iirc someone was saying RBE2 hadnt yet matched the performance of RDY2 it was supposed to replace. RDY2 has 15% better range in a2a vs RDY per google searches.

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Postby Neethan » 07 Jul 2005 02:58

Su-30 is a bigger aircraft thus would have a bigger radar and have a longer detection range than most aircrafts, !! I don't think the mirage could get close enough to see a su-30mki, the mirage would be spotted much earlier.

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Postby Singha » 07 Jul 2005 10:17

in real life the idea is to use AWACS until time comes for launching missile.
a radiating radar can be detected from well outside its own effective range by RWR gear.

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Postby appuseth » 07 Jul 2005 10:22

I think the ability to engage multiple targets simultaneously becomes very important in bvr exercises. It is in this regard that the RDY2 is better than the N001. Raw range of the radar is less important because the actual engagement range of either bvr missile, mica or R-77, is lower than the 70 km tracking limit of the RDY if fired when the target is within the no-escape zone.

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Postby Singha » 07 Jul 2005 11:28

Myech being inferior to RDY isnt surprising, its a late-80s std radar while RDY is a mid-90s std. RDY2 is late 90s and has inputs from Rafale design.

since we arent upgrading the MK's to MKI std structurally, we should still go ahead and upg their cockpits and avionics to MKI stdmk3 to bring them upto par. this would probably cost in region of $5 mil/plane and well worth it. A sub-squadron of 7 can be sent to flight school also --- should be shit scary to jump from Hawk to Flanker sized hunter :twisted:

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Postby JTull » 07 Jul 2005 12:07

Singha wrote:since we arent upgrading the MK's to MKI std structurally, we should still go ahead and upg their cockpits and avionics to MKI stdmk3 to bring them upto par. this would probably cost in region of $5 mil/plane and well worth it. A sub-squadron of 7 can be sent to flight school also --- should be shit scary to jump from Hawk to Flanker sized hunter :twisted:


there was link posted few weeks ago that K's will be exchanged for new MKIs as the cost of exchange is marginally different from upgrade.

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Postby Logan » 07 Jul 2005 12:08

this SLRPM thing prolly records a whole lotta more stuff than just a series of GPS 3d co-ords.

It can collect almost the same amount of data that an ACMI pod will. ACMI of course is a far more comprehensive system and collects vital information around the aircraft too. Not just what goes on inside the aircraft.

where do the Ehud ACMI pods fit into our game ?

ACMI is a training tool only. SLRPM can actually be used in wartime. It will plan pre flight status, waypoints, 2/3D terrain, HUD camera recordings just as well in wartime. The French are known to use it for live training exercises as a force multiplier rather than a simple track tool.

When it comes to training the best way to think of the difference between the two is that ACMI is a macro system and places more emphasis on the team as a whole. SLRPM is designed as a micro system and places more importance on the individual pilot. ACMI relies on vast electronic ranges while SLRPM can be used simply by storing information on a disk and loading it on the aircraft.

The trend of course is towards SLRPM systems with various studies going on worldwide. Poded systems cannot be used in combat and waste hardpoint space. Internal systems can provide more detail and actually perform with the aircraft on the live mission. They can also improve BDA and hone pilot skills using detailed software on live missions. The idea is not to rely on gun camera pictures and such to know what went right or wrong in an actual mission.

Does it need Ehud ground equipment (at tacde) to work ?

Yes. All ACMI systems require basic infrastructure on part of the OEM. Things such as data recorders, display systems, processing units etc. are part of the deal. A large part of the ground infrastructure is setting up of the tracking instrument range. This is separate for Air to Air ranges and bombing ranges. Aspects unique to the range also come from the ACMI pod suppliers *usually*. Of all the things the software liability is usually given to the user so they may play with equipment as they wish. So simulating an R77 from a Su30K is not very hard even though is reality it may only carry R27s.

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Postby Arun_S » 07 Jul 2005 20:12

Singha wrote:in real life the idea is to use AWACS until time comes for launching missile.
a radiating radar can be detected from well outside its own effective range by RWR gear.

Not all radars.
LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) Radars are designed to counter RWR gear.

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Postby sudipn » 07 Jul 2005 21:14

Singha wrote:in real life the idea is to use AWACS until time comes for launching missile.
a radiating radar can be detected from well outside its own effective range by RWR gear.


well you are right but this statement is not completely true.. in condition where an awac is not avaliable an air tactic called sentry is employed...
this formation has a radiating platform at least 100 kms behind the lead aircraft ... data is displayed to the lead aircraft by means of a secured datalink...


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