IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Umrao
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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Umrao » 29 Jun 2004 01:06

daulat ji>> Jaguars are indeed multi role in the hands of Som(e). Leave it to our imagination for som shall also join the Ryder club.

George J

Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby George J » 29 Jun 2004 01:22

Does it seem funny that our favorite DDR on vacation in Italy has the time and the inclination to post on BR.

People attending BR meets on their honeymoon, posting while they vacation, planning family trips around BR meets...what is the world coming to?

BR is the BORG. Resistance is paki.

Katare
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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Katare » 29 Jun 2004 01:27

Originally posted by George J:
Does it seem funny that our favorite DDR on vacation in Italy has the time and the inclination to post on BR.

People attending BR meets on their honeymoon, posting while they vacation, planning family trips around BR meets...what is the world coming to?

BR is the BORG. Resistance is paki.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Ashutosh » 29 Jun 2004 01:35

Originally posted by George J:
BR is the BORG. Resistance is paki.
then looks like you are the only Paki around! :D

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby srai » 29 Jun 2004 01:51

Originally posted by Vishnu Som:
... BTW ... of the 16 Jag pilots, most are TACDE ... some of the others are on their way to TACDE ... morale is high ... The IAF has asked the USAF to train with them on parity since we know what happened when the USAF rated us "inferior" the last time round ...

Cheers
Vishnu Som
NDTV 24/7
It was probably also TACDE pilots for Cope India 2004 with USAF and Exercise Garuda with French.

Imagine in the future ... USAF's Top Gun pilots vs the IAF's TACDE pilots :D

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Samir » 29 Jun 2004 02:34

The Jag pilots have been drawn from all squadrons. WingCO Rajiv Khera, CO of 14 Sqn, is the team leader. Sqn Ldr Pawan Kumar, senior flight commander of 16 Sqn, is the deputy. The remaining pilots are drawn from 5,14,16,27,6 Sqns. There is a wide variation in ranks in the pilots contingent.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Kartik » 29 Jun 2004 06:20

Here is a link in which there is a video of a Mirage-2000N and a Jaguar A of the French AF refuelling. its a very good video, and whats noteworthy is that refuelling the Jaguar seems to be so much trickier than the Mirage-2000N.

http://www.airpic.net/video_001.htm

check out the first video.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby shiv » 29 Jun 2004 06:58

Originally posted by Kartik:
N.

http://www.airpic.net/video_001.htm

check out the first video.
This children's video will not work on a real man's operating system Linux. Will view when I download codec$ for this proprietary, "my stuff will not work unless you me pay$$$" Window$ wmv

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Ashutosh » 29 Jun 2004 07:42

shiv, try xine or mplayer. They're both free, google is your friend.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Harsh » 29 Jun 2004 07:54

bsplayer(.com) is by far the best
(Kazaalite zindabad!)

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Hitesh » 29 Jun 2004 08:11

I watched the video. I was alarmed and surprised that when the drogue refueling probe hit the Mirage's nose, it did not put a dent in the nose of the Mirage or push the nose away or something like that.

What happened to the laws of physics?

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Kartik » 29 Jun 2004 17:27

What're you talking about Hitesh ? The probe did'nt hit the Mirage-2000N's nose at all. had it hit the nose, it would have probably caused major damage to the radome. you probably saw the probe pull up and thought that it hit the radome.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby daulat » 29 Jun 2004 18:00

drogue fairings have soft edges since there is bound to be some banging around. lots of wake turbulence behind the tanker. wouldn't surprise me if things hit now and again

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby rad » 29 Jun 2004 18:27

HI
could someone explain the lack of refuelling probes on the jaguars, i tried my best to make out the probes in all the jag pics but was unable to .Did i miss something.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Manne » 29 Jun 2004 20:06

rad,

Please to click on this onlee to see IB and IM feeding :)

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Jagan » 29 Jun 2004 20:16

Originally posted by rad:
HI
could someone explain the lack of refuelling probes on the jaguars, i tried my best to make out the probes in all the jag pics but was unable to .Did i miss something.
The probes retract neatly into the forward fuselage. There is no way to make them out if they are retracted.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby abhishek » 30 Jun 2004 00:35

The Jags and the motu tankers look very dull in the grey colour scheme (sarkari almirah colour)... :confused: ... they should have been turned into chic magnets by some kind of hip camo color scheme before they were being sent to Alaska..

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Kartik » 30 Jun 2004 02:19

That camo scheme is only meant to reduce visibility of the aircraft to lowest possible levels. it lends a great deal of respectability to the aircraft as well. :D

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Javee » 30 Jun 2004 04:10

Pilot fatigue must make the air-to-air refuelling much harder. wonder if they take something along to alleviate boredom.
May be dats why they took the European route?? more colorful? ;)

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Raman » 30 Jun 2004 04:55

Pilot fatigue must make the air-to-air refuelling much harder. wonder if they take something along to alleviate boredom.
What do you think all that "literature" tucked above the right glare shield was? Maps? :)

Seriously, the changes and experience that the IAF is racking up with AAR extended ops and military exercises has massive implications on the dominance it can impose on an already withering fizzle force. With additional Bisons continuously trickling in, impending additions of HAL Rambhas and the promise of the LCA program, things don't look too good for the Pakis. :D

Nabha sparsham deeptam, baby!

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Kartik » 30 Jun 2004 05:12

Any idea how many operational Bisons are there in how many operational squadrons ?

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby JCage » 30 Jun 2004 07:59

Ok Rajesh's comment made me said it out aloud.
Cope 2004 proved the dominance of the IAF wrt its threat scenario. How? Look at the missions flown and what the IAF did: Offensive counterair with composite strike and escort packages- which slashed through the F15 bouncers.
Now imagine the plight of the Packees. So the comment was:
"What we faced were superior numbers (strike plus escort) and IAF pilots very proficient with their a/c and smart on tactics. That was tough for us to overcome ". ;)
Now think how the Packees would have felt- given that they have to send obscolescent a/c against the IAF to boot and are overstretched..
The IAF success bodes well against the PLAAF as well.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Raman » 30 Jun 2004 09:17

Originally posted by Kartik:
Any idea how many operational Bisons are there in how many operational squadrons ?
Last I heard, it was two squadrons' worth: No.3 and No.21. Timing-wise, I'm hoping to hear of the third sometime soon ... :)

George J

Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby George J » 30 Jun 2004 09:50

Originally posted by nitin:
....The IAF success bodes well against the PLAAF as well.
Somehow I dont think so. If you ascribe all the success to the equipment and not the folks manning it then yes. Given that some of the folks who took part in Cope India have lets say... a LOT more than 300 hours on the Su-30. The only way PLAAF could match these 'gentlemen' would be if they had folks who have been flying 4 gen a/c for a 'long time' and grayed their hair in spending countless hours refining tactics and integrating them with the rest of the AF. Do they?

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby JCage » 30 Jun 2004 09:59

Hey you said "no" but you are agreeing with what I said. What gives? ;) super duper guns? They would not be- the aim would be to spread the experience among as many as possible.

So what the exercises conclsuively proved is that the IAF can well manage large raids. And defend them.

In the same way- the PLAAF-IAF matchup would be more complicated with the A50 vs Phalcon arguement. Hence I said bodes well, not necessarily= overwhelming success.

Against the PAF...well ...it would not pay to be in the PAF. I'd wager ten to one that the Cope ex results have really let the cat among the pigeons in Packeeland.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Mohan Raju » 30 Jun 2004 10:23

[quote][b]Hey you said "no" but you are agreeing with what I said. What gives? :D Call it George's BRJCA (BR Jingo Confusion Algorithm).

FWIW, I suspect (although of course I have no supporting evidence -- just call it a hunch) that Fizzle Ya pilots are basically better than their PLAAF counterparts. So your point is reinforced, but of course the Chinese AWACS (something that Fizzle doesn't have, so far) would be a complicating factor for IAF planners.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Kartik » 30 Jun 2004 17:18

FWIW, I suspect (although of course I have no supporting evidence -- just call it a hunch) that Fizzle Ya pilots are basically better than their PLAAF counterparts
Why ? They too have trained on FT-5s and Mushaks. What makes them any better ? they dont get too many hours to fly and their equipment is pretty much obsolete. You should see pictures of their pilots. They stand in American G-suits proudly strutting in front of Chinese junk, and promptly are called better trained. Its like a taxi driver wearing a Formula 1 dress standing in front of his Padmini and then being called equivalent to Schumi.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Anant » 30 Jun 2004 20:32

People seemed to be puzzled by the route. Here's my simple hypothesis. It's called force projection and it can be explained by a simple American analogy known as the Debutante's Ball. In the deep south, when a girl matured into a woman, they would have a big party and parade her for all the town folks, principally unmarried single men. Then, everyone would state how ravishing she was and how desirable they all were to marry her. Ergo, thats what the IAF is doing by stopping in the traditional European countries, which at one time never took India seriously and showing countries like Egypt etc., that hey look there's a new kid in town and he is carrying a rather large "whooping" stick. This would be hard to accomplish flying over the Pacific as islanders and sharks are nary too impressed by overflying airforces. Someone in the IAF is thinking on this one. Personally, I wish they'd stop in more cities, esp. in Uncle Sam's territory. The Indian navy had this PR campaign down cold and now the IAF has caught on. Best of luck to the IAF. May you safely kick @$$ again.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Vivek K » 30 Jun 2004 20:36

Originally posted by Kartik:
.... They stand in American G-suits proudly strutting in front of Chinese junk, and promptly are called better trained. Its like a taxi driver wearing a Formula 1 dress standing in front of his Padmini and then being called equivalent to Schumi.
Great (and appropriate) comparison!! :rotfl:

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Johann » 30 Jun 2004 21:10

Originally posted by Kartik:
FWIW, I suspect (although of course I have no supporting evidence -- just call it a hunch) that Fizzle Ya pilots are basically better than their PLAAF counterparts
Why ? They too have trained on FT-5s and Mushaks. What makes them any better ? they dont get too many hours to fly and their equipment is pretty much obsolete.
-As far as any one can tell, PLAAF combat pilots get less flying time, for reasons of cost and a desire to minimise accidents.

- The PAF has had far more exposure to modern air forces in terms of training and exercises than the PLAAF.

- The PAF has had more direct air combat experience than the PLAAF in the last 40 years.

- PLAAF doctrine is far more limited, which directly impacts the range of missions they are trained and equipped to perform.

- The problem of obsolescence is far more acute in the PLAAF than the PAF, in part because the PLAAF can not afford system upgrades for such a vast fleet.

- It is not clear if the PLAAF's air surveillance network is as well developed as the PAF's.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Amitabh » 30 Jun 2004 21:15

Originally posted by Johann:
- The problem of obsolescence is far more acute in the PLAAF than the PAF, in part because the PLAAF can not afford the incremental system upgrades for such a vast fleet.
Perhaps, but the PLAAF has a much more modern core than the PAF, with spanking new Su-27/30s and JH-7 strike aircraft.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby daulat » 30 Jun 2004 21:29

the PLAAF can focus a core of high quality opposition and the rest of the 'peasant airforce' can make an awful mess by being up there in vast numbers with their pitchforks to unhorse the knights...

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Johann » 30 Jun 2004 21:30

Amitabh,

That's true, but historically the PAF have re-equipped faster than the PLAAF. In the last 40 years they've bought from the French and Americans with Gulf money, and upgraded all of their aircraft including Chinese with western weapons and systems mostly using their own resources.

The technological imbalance within the PLAAF fleet is more acute, which combined with the size of the PRC and the number of potential conflicts spread the new aircraft thin, especially when looking towards India. Given highly conservative air doctrine and lack of training money the benefits of new aircraft seem highly localised within the PLAAF.

This is not to say that the PLAAF do not have their own considerable strengths - just that they can and do get by with a far less developed flight corps. For all of the intentions the PLAAF have not received the resources and support they need from the ground forces and the party/state apparatus to entirely give up the People's War approach.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby SureshP » 30 Jun 2004 21:53

Originally posted by Anant:
People seemed to be puzzled by the route. Here's my simple hypothesis. It's called force projection and it can be explained by a simple American analogy known as the Debutante's Ball. In the deep south, when a girl matured into a woman, they would have a big party and parade her for all the town folks, principally unmarried single men. Then, everyone would state how ravishing she was and how desirable they all were to marry her. Ergo, thats what the IAF is doing by stopping in the traditional European countries, which at one time never took India seriously and showing countries like Egypt etc., that hey look there's a new kid in town and he is carrying a rather large "whooping" stick. This would be hard to accomplish flying over the Pacific as islanders and sharks are nary too impressed by overflying airforces. Someone in the IAF is thinking on this one. Personally, I wish they'd stop in more cities, esp. in Uncle Sam's territory. The Indian navy had this PR campaign down cold and now the IAF has caught on. Best of luck to the IAF. May you safely kick @$$ again.
There is onleee a small fly in the ointment. No one. but no one in the countries you mentioned have even looked sideways at the Indian airforce. It registers as highly as the daily flight from London has landed on time and is now disembarking at gate 4.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Hitesh » 30 Jun 2004 21:57

Nitin, when the Americans came to Gwalior, they did not bring their system such as AWACs, refueling tankers, SEAD etc. so your arguments about the IAF system being good remains to be seen because the IAF system has not been fully tested.

As far as I am concerned, the recent exercise was just showing individual prowess, not comparing one system to another system.

If the Americans had brought one whole squadron like 24 planes, an AWACs, refueling tanker, and other components that would complete a strike or tactical system and brought it to bear against the IAF system, only then we can actually test and judge the IAF system.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Umrao » 30 Jun 2004 22:37

Hitesh>> Who knows had they come with complete complements our implements would have been different to tackle them?

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Rudra » 30 Jun 2004 22:51

PAF capabilities have fallen off greatly since their glory days of the mid-60s , lack of funds has made them fall a lot behind. I am sure they have some good/great pilots , but in a F-7/F16A they arent competitive with the new HW floating around.
their MirageIII/V fleet is worn out and probably kept on low hrs to stretch their life out.

AFM had a interview with a PAF sqdn leader at Karachi who was saying they practise at night over the sea only when the situation is tense, in peacetime he was told to preserve national assets and thats what he was dutifully doing avoiding higher risk training regimes. the french have apparently been gouging them for spare parts cost hence the recent move to buy up frames from Libya.
(btw if anyone has that interview archived pls post it...it was used to settle an argument between S2 and N1 iirc)

I think PLAAF inspite of its insular and secretive culture (doesnt breed competence) is head n shoulders above PAF because
* 250 flankers today, 400 by 2010
* a local AWACS on Il76 is in tests, some A50s have been ordered in the interim
* Access to loads of LR A-2-S missile KH3x, KH5x
* Flankers getting AA12 now, SD-10 on the way
* they have some old AAR a/c , might buy up Midas
* J-10 specwise is a lot better than FC-1 ever can aspire for
* russian avionics is improving and china is also working on local stuff

PAF has none of the above. its in a lighter weight category.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Aditya G » 30 Jun 2004 23:48

Militaries build up their culture over decades. PLAAF was barely a concern 10 years back, it aint gonna change just because they are buying lots of fancy of equipment.

Numbers do matter though, but they aint have what it takes to do deep strike over Indian territory. Let them focus on the tiny island.

PAF has got real issues; i think we would all agree that IAF's worst time was late 1980s-1992/3/4, when the country had no cash and SU&WP broke up. PAF has been in that 'worst time mode' for god-knows-how-many years.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Ashutosh » 01 Jul 2004 00:01

Nitin, when the Americans came to Gwalior, they did not bring their system such as AWACs, refueling tankers, SEAD etc.
Hitesh, Cope India - as Nitin puts it - was about offensive counterair with composite strike and escort packages involving both the USAF and IAF. Both flying intermixed and not one against the other - they had to work in teams. From a operational perspective, they must have learnt a lot of things, however from an equipment pov, the USAF thinks it's own equipment was not upto par to match or overmatch the IAF equipment.

So it was nothing about IAF vs USAF. Secondly - it's an exercise, not an all out war. AWACS, refuellers, SEAD assets, etc. will come into play either only in specific exercises or an all out war. So your comparisons are apples-oranges.

so your arguments about the IAF system being good remains to be seen because the IAF system has not been fully tested.
No airforce in the world has been fully tested.
As far as I am concerned, the recent exercise was just showing individual prowess, not comparing one system to another system.
It is not comparing either one system against another not is it showing individual prowess.
If the Americans had brought one whole squadron like 24 planes, an AWACs, refueling tanker, and other components that would complete a strike or tactical system and brought it to bear against the IAF system, only then we can actually test and judge the IAF system.
24 planes will not make a strike package or a tactical system - it will make an operational squadron.

If that's what you wanna compare, then let the IAF bring in PHALCON, IL-78, the entire Lightnings+Hawks, Mig-29s, etc. etc. Match is on. Lemme get some popcorn.

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Re: IAF Jaguars & IL-78s in Italy

Postby Ashutosh » 01 Jul 2004 00:02

Daulat, it's not about peasants, it's about doctrines and training. If peasants are supposed to be so bad, how come the Marathas annexed territories right upto Attock?


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