Exercise Co-operative Cope Thunder

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Postby Shankar » 20 Aug 2004 11:44

let us not put too much importance on these reports.The optimum long range cruise speed of jaguars is 400 -450 knots and that of il-78 s is 350-400 knots at 20000 ft + .so we can safely assume the whole group traversed atlantic at 400 knots average to stay together .In a war situation the tankers wil be positioned all along the route and the jaguars will tend to sprint from one refuelling point to other significantly incraesing the average speed to well
over 500 knots but not much higher to save the engines and since then they will mostly prefer fly at less than 1000 ft .

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Postby Vaibhav » 24 Aug 2004 21:34


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Postby Kartik » 25 Aug 2004 04:49

we've already seen those pics, including the ones at the bottom of that page. but thanks anyway. :)

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Postby JaiS » 25 Aug 2004 19:21

Indian Air Force at Pratica di Mare
http://www.afterburner.nl/indianaf.htm

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Postby JaiS » 26 Aug 2004 17:26


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Postby Amitabh » 05 Sep 2004 22:28

This is really about Cope India 2004, but it's a Pakistani analysis of that exercise.

http://www.caps.org.pk/Papers/July2004.htm

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Postby vksac » 06 Sep 2004 22:43

I was wondering. Since we have developed such good relations with isreal and its been a long time since we had such relations. Why has there not been joint combat training exercises with the isrealis. Since their airforce is one of the best in the world which has seen quite a lot of action.
Plus we can get the chance to see the F-16Is in action. Know its syntax and semantics. What I mean is...it is not necessary to publicize this endeavour. Its like.... some of our pilots can act as navigators in the 2 man team in their airstrikes against the hizbulla. Or even accompany them in the formation to have a first hand look at their tactics. Even some of our army aviation corps guys can tag along in their cobras or apaches in their operations.
So we can have excellent opportunities to learn in anti-terrorism operations and for strikes.

We can learn and adapt some of their tactics. I think they would offer excellent training platforms compared to wasting money on exercises with singapore air force , south african airforce, which are not that reputed and are not that experienced in the situation as ours.

Troops monitoring their anti-terrorism operations, joint naval exercises with their dolphin class submarines....we just buy stuff from them....we can also train from them.

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Postby Rudra » 06 Sep 2004 23:12

if is really secret , why would *we* here know of it :)

it is however known in public that indian commandoes/hostage rescue people have done courses in israel.

the analysis of CopeIndia is not a real analysis since he concludes its in search mode. Moreover nobody but the USAF has access to ultra advanced ECM on tap so they had best learn how to get by on much less :twisted:

and the line on PAF ACM superiority was *expected* and *par for the course*

not a great read. the 1978 shahbaz exercise either he or another guy has already written about and been posted separately in AFM.

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Postby vksac » 06 Sep 2004 23:29

Rudra Singha wrote:it is however known in public that indian commandoes/hostage rescue people have done courses in israel.


Courses are effective to teach you ways of handling situations. There are set of proceedures laid down which you follow. Each time a training is under taken, a basic foundation is presented to you in unique way and you are supposed to find sollutions.

They do not provide you with the experiences which are important.
Situations arise where on spot decisions have to be taken. Thats what I am talking about. But this is with respect to army only. I was talking about the airforce too. Anyways.

Our model for anti-terrorism does'nt count on air-power which it should. Helicopters with smart sensors should be more often used. Even a lancer (which costs less) fitted with good electronics increases the chance of human survival. The moment a terrorist is detected, a lancer can be called with a dedicated individual in control of a rocket launcher/machine gun. He can fire the launcher from a distance, thus avoiding getting shot and lengthy hrs of gun battle that rages. Thats effective suppression where you show the use of force and hence induce a feeling of de-moral among the terrorist.

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Postby Jaeger » 07 Sep 2004 13:38

Helos work fine in open country, and we have used them in "Op. Sarp Vinash" in Hill Kaka region.
However, it would be tough for us to use rocket/missile armed helos in MOUT like ie. Srinagar because while the the Israelis couldn't give a damn as to how many Palestinian civilians (more the merrier) die, the Kashmiris are our own people, so we would prefer judicious use of firepower resulting in minimum loss of life AND property.
But I do agree that we need to find ways to avoid 6 hr gun battles with 2-and-a-half terrorists.

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Postby shiv » 07 Sep 2004 13:48

Jaeger wrote: Kashmiris are our own people, so we would prefer judicious use of firepower resulting in minimum loss of life AND property.
But I do agree that we need to find ways to avoid 6 hr gun battles with 2-and-a-half terrorists.


I wonder if there is a contradiction in what you have said.

Let me explain.

The need for 6 hour battles with 2.5 terrorists is precisely to pin them down and tire them and make them exhaust their supplies of ammunition and food so that collateral damage is minimized.

They hide inside a building. Israelis would fire a PGM through the window and demolish the building and Allah help anyone nearby. The Indian army/paramilitaries suorround the building, evacuate the area and the "overnight gun battle" is part of the plan.

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Postby Jaeger » 07 Sep 2004 13:48

On anther note:

"Cope India 2004... blah blah... Shahbaz 1978... blah blah... we won... blah blah... we beat Israel AF in 1973... we are sword of Pakistan... blah blah... we're the BEST. And when Thundaar comes, we will blow MKIs out of sky. And then F/A 22. And then destroy Israel. DIE INFIDELS DIE."

I've figured it out; they're actually masturbating when they talk like this.

:twisted:

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Postby Jaeger » 07 Sep 2004 13:53

shiv wrote:
Jaeger wrote: Kashmiris are our own people, so we would prefer judicious use of firepower resulting in minimum loss of life AND property.
But I do agree that we need to find ways to avoid 6 hr gun battles with 2-and-a-half terrorists.


I wonder if there is a contradiction in what you have said.

Let me explain.

The need for 6 hour battles with 2.5 terrorists is precisely to pin them down and tire them and make them exhaust their supplies of ammunition and food so that collateral damage is minimized.

They hide inside a building. Israelis would fire a PGM through the window and demolish the building and Allah help anyone nearby. The Indian army/paramilitaries suorround the building, evacuate the area and the "overnight gun battle" is part of the plan.


Sure but are we using those tactics because we have no other choice? In a lot of these battles, one or two guys manage to escape, we take casualties, it gets long tiring and bloody expensive in terms of army/para lives and civil property.

What if we had some sort of sleeping gas like the one the Russkies used in the Moscow theatre? Or a severe skin irritant? This might border on chem warfare, but it would be very limited use and tightly controlled. If the Army is evacuating the surroundings anyway, this can work.
This is not THE solution, but A solution. I'm sure the Army can come up with 50 more, if provided the $ and freedom to improvise.

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Postby vksac » 07 Sep 2004 22:32

Jaeger wrote:

Sure but are we using those tactics because we have no other choice? In a lot of these battles, one or two guys manage to escape, we take casualties, it gets long tiring and bloody expensive in terms of army/para lives and civil property.

What if we had some sort of sleeping gas like the one the Russkies used in the Moscow theatre? Or a severe skin irritant? This might border on chem warfare, but it would be very limited use and tightly controlled. If the Army is evacuating the surroundings anyway, this can work.
This is not THE solution, but A solution. I'm sure the Army can come up with 50 more, if provided the $ and freedom to improvise.


You are right. The situations where the terrorist escapes happens quite often. You are right when you say that the army can come up with 50 strategies. What I think is that there is less transparency among the areas of various anti-terrorism operational groups. Please note that I am not being a critic here but I am trying to focus on an operational re-structuring.

Its like this...consider each commander/captain in charge of a team currently engaged with the terrorists. He is in touch with his base commander. If you know a tree data structure the base comander is a parent and the captain the leaf node. This parent has multiple childs who are captains who may also be engaged with terrorists. If the situation goes bad, this parent has to get in touch with his parent(say X) to decide whether additional type of help is needed. It might be that X or his parent has a pointer to another tree structure of the helicopter commander's list who he can summon for help.

What I am talking about is getting the helicopter command's pointer right into the base commander's data structure. You know greater freedom and transparency among sections of army & airforce operating in kashmir. You do not need to use costly and highly sofisticated Mi-8/17 or ALH. Just a lancer would do the job perfectly...sitting far away. Plus extra imaging equipment can be installed in it to aid in spotting the escaping terrorist. Its like how police out here make use of choppers in car chases. LA is famous for that.

We can even go as far as the leaf node in direct contact with the helicopter commander.

Hey none of you guys expressed any views on air-combat exercises with with the most potent isreali air force.

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Postby Singha » 07 Sep 2004 23:27

vksac, wrt to ur last line I have long proposed DPSA exercises with 10 x F15-I on a mock nuclear plant constructed on the pokhran range in full view of media cameras.

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Postby Vick » 07 Sep 2004 23:34

MT Singha wrote:vksac, wrt to ur last line I have long proposed DPSA exercises with 10 x F15-I on a mock nuclear plant constructed on the pokhran range in full view of media cameras.


Wouldn't that send the exactly wrong signals to another country India considers a "friend" but Israel considers an enemy?

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Postby vksac » 07 Sep 2004 23:37

MT Singha wrote:vksac, wrt to ur last line I have long proposed DPSA exercises with 10 x F15-I on a mock nuclear plant constructed on the pokhran range in full view of media cameras.


You know ...you are one of my favourite personalities in this forum. hahahah!!!!

Jaeger wrote:On anther note: "Cope India 2004... blah blah... Shahbaz 1978... blah blah... we won... blah blah... we beat Israel AF in 1973... we are sword of Pakistan... blah blah... we're the BEST. And when Thundaar comes, we will blow MKIs out of sky. And then F/A 22. And then destroy Israel. DIE INFIDELS DIE." I've figured it out; they're actually masturbating when they talk like this.


Good one....I actually started visualizing this. I think they should also start something like osho...with all of their forums turning into raznish ashrams.

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Postby Singha » 07 Sep 2004 23:41

Vick, we soothe that "friend" beforehand. considering the
300% panic in pindi at the words "F15I have landed in pune" the entire TSPAF is going to be scrambled for months everytime someone breaks wind at any major iaf base.

great fun. install sound recorder with sound of F110 engines taking off in the dark for ISI PCO keepers to soil their shorts over.

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Postby abhishek » 07 Sep 2004 23:45

The Indian army/paramilitaries suorround the building, evacuate the area and the "overnight gun battle" is part of the plan.


From what I know, if the location permits, our forces use shoulder mounted rocket launchers to destroy the hiding house, if the terrorists don't surrender. This is done to avoid casualties on our part that may result from gun fights. Of course the government will have to give compensation to the house owner to re-build his house, but this compensation works out to be less then what we lose when we have a dead soldier. Rocket blasting of the whole hiding house also results in a huge morale blow for the terrorists.

The Israelis resort to missiles fired from air because they have to eliminate targets at locations that are not under their control/rule. In our case, all our engagements with the terrorists are within our own territory.

I therefore think there is no need to use the air-fired missile tactic to eliminate the terrorists. Also there are various other reasons for our Army avoiding such tactics

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Postby Vick » 07 Sep 2004 23:47

IAF squared live fire exercise in the desert would be nice... The Raam and Ramba side by side :)

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Postby vksac » 07 Sep 2004 23:54

MT Singha wrote:panic in pindi at the words "F15I have landed in pune" the entire TSPAF is going to be scrambled for months everytime someone breaks wind at any major iaf base.


Choose your words carfully my friend.

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Postby Rakesh » 07 Sep 2004 23:57

And as for you, please stop posting in red. I am tired of editing your posts! Also please use the "quote" feature, when replying to another poster.

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Postby JTull » 08 Sep 2004 00:09

Vick wrote:
MT Singha wrote:vksac, wrt to ur last line I have long proposed DPSA exercises with 10 x F15-I on a mock nuclear plant constructed on the pokhran range in full view of media cameras.


Wouldn't that send the exactly wrong signals to another country India considers a "friend" but Israel considers an enemy?


Might as well invite the Israeli F-16Is for the show. Would send the right signals to another country we both consider an enemy.

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Postby vksac » 08 Sep 2004 00:15

Rakesh wrote:And as for you, please stop posting in red. I am tired of editing your posts! Also please use the "quote" feature, when replying to another poster.


ok thanks. :wink:

Besides abhishek...you must be refering to that infamous shoot out knocking off Gazzi baba. I do think that manuver was a morale blaster alright for the terrorists. But I do not think the isreallis do not employ these tactics whenever they face something in their land too.

Also with most of the engagements that you hear about involve patrol parties who engage them first hand which are not in settlement areas also.

Also, the question of being our land or their land does not address the issue of showing of force in suppression. I think it means use of effective means to solve problems with minimal burdens thereby also promoting high morale among our guys.

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Postby Subra » 08 Sep 2004 01:00

Err this thread is about Cope Thunder
Last edited by Subra on 08 Sep 2004 17:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vksac » 08 Sep 2004 08:51

Subra wrote:Err this thread is about Cope India.


Not Cope India but Cope Thunder. Anyways....

Also something which will be good for TV channels in india. They should show live telicast of enounters or infiltration bids being foiled. Its like how they do here for car chases.

I think there will be plenty people glued to the TV sets when this happens. They can get a lot coverage. There will be more awareness and it will be nothing better to see than a terrorist being killed live on TV. It will lower their morale even more and encourage more younsters to join the armed forces.

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Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2004 10:16

Jaeger wrote: What if we had some sort of sleeping gas like the one the Russkies used in the Moscow theatre? Or a severe skin irritant? This might border on chem warfare, but it would be very limited use and tightly controlled. If the Army is evacuating the surroundings anyway, this can work.
This is not THE solution, but A solution. I'm sure the Army can come up with 50 more, if provided the $ and freedom to improvise.


Jaeger this is the wrong thread for this discussion.

But I must point out that we must not confuse reality with sci-fi. Unfrotunately sleeping gas and stun guns are more sci fi than reality.

Have you read the article on the Russian theater indcident in the BR monitor - written by Jagan Mohan (with me as co author)?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... mohan.html

Recall that incidents of school shootings and hostage situations in the US and elsewhere have not been dealt with using this "sleeping gas or something else" technique because in most instances none of these techniques is good enough except under laboratory conditions. The Russians who developed a whole chemical warfare system were able to use that innovative gas in only one incident in a closed theater. Do look for and read the article on BRM and it will give you some idea of why it is easier to say "be innovative" rather than actually coming up with an effctive and innovative solution. I assure it is not for want of trying.

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Postby Jaeger » 08 Sep 2004 13:30

Sorry for disrupting the thread! :D

But just one last thing... like I said, the chem thingy was just an idea. The Army (which obviously knows best) can think up other more doable ways.

ok, back to the original thread...

Just a question... what tactical lessons does everyone think the IAF derived from this execise? And how will these lessons be disseminated through the rest of the IAF?

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Postby Luxtor » 09 Sep 2004 19:32

Amitabh wrote:This is really about Cope India 2004, but it's a Pakistani analysis of that exercise.

http://www.caps.org.pk/Papers/July2004.htm


[/quote]With PAF as their primary adversary, IAF pilots can ignore their air combat training only at their peril. IAF pilots too have honed their air combat skills to match their main adversary and I am sure they are not too far behind.[/quote]

HA, Spoken like a true Paki. If they pat themselves on the back and always think their pilots are so good and their army and navy are so good then why was their country split in half by India? (so easily too I might add). The Pakis never won a single war against India or anyone else. They got their ass kicked each and every time most recently in Kargil. A better airforce always makes a tremendous difference in a war. Look at the Israelis. They always won easily against the Arabs because of their airforce being so much superior despite the fact that the Arab forces were numerically stronger and had some of the best weapons that oil money could buy. So the Paki claim of the superiority of their airforce pilots over their Indian counterparts but nothing really to show for it is nothing more than self soothing imagination for a wounded ego.

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Postby bagha » 09 Sep 2004 20:10

Wounded ego??
dont you mean cut, diced, chopped, pureed ego??
Its like us saying hey the Chinese sure started a fight but we defeated them and drove them back.
Proof? They went back didnt they??
No sir, this soothing of wounded ego is incomprehensible.

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Postby Singha » 09 Sep 2004 20:14

Pakistan is not part of the TOP10 asian AFs which in unordered format are:

Israel, Turkey, KSA, UAE, India, Singapore, Taiwan, S.Korea and
Japan and China.

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Postby Kartik » 09 Sep 2004 20:48

actually Luxtor, we all happen to know that already. :) . but living in a land of dreams is what Pukistan is all bout. let them be. who really respects them anyways ? at least not those who're not taken in by propaganda.


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Postby JaiS » 14 Sep 2004 12:10

Indian Air Force team leaves for South Africa


Thiruvananthapuram, A 100-strong Indian Air Force (IAF) contingent left here Monday for South Africa for multi-nation war games that will be witnessed by visiting Indian President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam.


Exercise Golden Eagle comes in the wake of the hugely successful Exercise Cooperative Cope Thunder 04-01 in Alaska in July during which IAF pilots matched their skills with their counterparts from the US and NATO air forces and came out with flying colours.

"Our participation in Exercise Cooperative Cope Thunder 04-01 brought laurels to the country, thanks to the high precision displayed by the fighter pilots in penetrating air defences and scoring direct hits on ground targets in the mountain ranges," the air chief, Air Chief Marshal S. Krishnaswamy, had said after the contingent returned.


Air forces from the Asia-Pacific and NATO countries such as Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Canada, Germany and Britain too participated.
Early this year, a similar exercise was conducted by the IAF at Gwalior, where the US Air Force participated with F-15Cs and the combat skills of Indian pilots drew much appreciation.

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Postby JaiS » 14 Sep 2004 15:40


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Postby JaiS » 14 Sep 2004 16:20

8)

INDIAN SUMMER IN ALASKA
http://www.aflyer.com/INDIAN.html

Outbound for a training mission, this Indian Air Force Jaguar pilot smiles for the camera
Image


by Ken Kula


The Indian Air Force made a historic leap across the Atlantic Ocean during June, July and August, 2004. Six Jaguar deep strike jets, a pair of new IL-78 tankers and 2 IL-76 support transports, along with over 200 personnel hopscotched halfway around the world from their bases in India to arrive at Alaska’s Eielson AFB, near Fairbanks in early July. Their mission was to participate in the Cooperative Cope Thunder 04-01 exercise, the annual summertime military flying exercise that combines aircraft, crews and observers, this year from 10 countries.

The amount of time spent in the air to reach Alaska from India was staggering. Eight stops in Qatar, Egypt, Italy, Portugal and Canada were required, totaling 35 hours in the air for each jet (not to mention the humans!), just to arrive for the exercise. The route of flight stretched almost 20,000 kilometers, or close to 12,500 miles. The return trip was to be a mirror image back across the Atlantic Ocean. Finishing the trip by continuing around the world was preferred, but wasn’t an option due to some technical issues (distance) as well as poor weather conditions across the Pacific Ocean during their flights, according to a Technical Officer in charge of planning part of the deployment. The average flight time per leg was approximately four hours long. In all, the deployed unit will be away from India almost two months, just for a two-week Cope Thunder training period.


India’s Air Force exploited a new capability during the Cope Thunder deployment to Alaska this summer. Its’ new IL-78 tankers, modeled after the Russian IL-76 transport, have only been operational for one year. This is the first time that India has operated air refuelers in international airspace, and this capability allowed for unusually long flight legs (4 to 5 hours and longer) of the Jaguar strike jets. On each wing is a hose-and-reel system allowing a pair of fighters/bombers to refuel at the same time.


Undoubtedly, there will be a detailed review of their first international deployment by the Indian Air Force, after their contingent arrives home by mid-August. After that, the possibility of more Indian summers in Alaska will be explored.

The author notes the extraordinary access granted to the Atlantic Flyer for gathering information and photos for this article. Specifically, thanks to USAF Major Brenda Campbell, Director of Public Affairs/Elmendorf AFB, and Indian Air Force Tactical Team Leader Group Captain S. J. Nanodkar and his staff for their time and willingness to discuss their deployment with me.



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Postby Naidu » 14 Sep 2004 18:29

Another image from the Atlantic Flyer main page:

http://www.aflyer.com/images/kula-jags1cover.jpg

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Postby Kartik » 15 Sep 2004 03:27

God, I wish that pic of the pilot was in color and full size. would've made an awesome wallpaper. :cry:

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Postby Singha » 15 Sep 2004 03:41

Harry has posted a pic of the Vajra landing in mauritius here:

http://forum.airforces.info/showthread. ... 177&page=4


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