Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part I

George J

Postby George J » 18 Nov 2005 11:49

Sure but no colors or fonts. I am sure McJingos* will be very interested in knowing what it means....but shouldnt we wait for our favorite DDM to tell us what he has learnt?

_____________________________________
*McJingo=Anyone who attends a BR Meet outside India and deals/lives with the consequences that it entails. Derived from the classification bestowed on the BR communit by Chinese PS experts.

This is the beginnings of a BRF caste system, the McJingos are the superior folks and other jingos SHOULD aspire to become a McJingo. Mu hu hu ha ha ha

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Re: Vishnu's report

Postby maitya » 18 Nov 2005 13:05

Vishnu Som was seen giving a brief lecture on cope-india standing infront of an F-16 ...

That's an excellent presentation by Vishnu ... could've been for a little more duration though :(
But overall an excellent presentation ...

Raju

Postby Raju » 18 Nov 2005 13:19

George J wrote:*McJingo=Anyone who attends a BR Meet outside India and deals/lives with the consequences that it entails. Derived from the classification bestowed on the BR communit by Chinese PS experts.

This is the beginnings of a BRF caste system, the McJingos are the superior folks and other jingos SHOULD aspire to become a McJingo. Mu hu hu ha ha ha


nah nah nah....McJingos are NRI jingos who just redeemed themselves. :P

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Postby Philip » 18 Nov 2005 14:16

Westerners are generally scared of large crowds of "natives" who are dissimilar in appearance from the palefaced proles whom they understand.I once met a huge six-foot Asutrian ski-commando who said that the most frightening experience of his life was being chased by a band of child beggars round the ramparts of an old fort! Nevertheless,whatever the final scorecard of this exercise,it appears that the IAF is as sharp as ever and that should send a suitable message to our "potential enemies",east,west and north! these exercises are also valuable in that it also reinforces the confidence in our pilots and air-crew of their capabilities,as they've taken on the most powerful air force in the world.It would be most interesting to see how the IAF fares against the Israeli Air Force,Russian pilots and the RAF.
Last edited by Philip on 18 Nov 2005 14:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby AnantD » 18 Nov 2005 14:17

Posted by Singha
if the mig29 is carrying a belly tank, what is the capacity and how much is
the combat radius of a 29 with this tank ?


The Centerline fuel Tank carries 400 Gallons or 1275 Liters.

Ferry radius w/ tank is over 1200 N Mi or 2,200 KM, could be 25% more for the MiG-29S. Combat Radius depending on stores, type of mission, 20 min. loiter time is about 450 KM with the tank could be higher for the S.

If you know the internal fuel capacity, some simple math would put you in the ball-park for the increased combat radius. I don't know the internal capacity.

This data is a little old, improvements in engine fuel efficiency and internal fuel capacity for the Mig-29S over the Mig-29A is something I don't know. Looking at a old book about the MiG-29 by Jay Miller, so the numbers above could be considered minimums.

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Well Done IAF!!!

Postby ashuinalwar » 18 Nov 2005 14:51

Well done IAF :D :D . Now we can say that we are right on top in whole world in air combat.
After uprooting USAF back in Gwalior we have again scored a punck in belly against all our future enemies.
What about next Cope India/US exercise ,when and where is going to happen?

High 5 :D :D :D
Abhi

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Right on top

Postby Vishnu » 18 Nov 2005 15:53

Hi there .. Yes, I was in Kalaikunda yesterday ... though I spent the rest of the day abusing the An-32 I was flying in ... The return journey to Delhi from Kalaikunda took more than 3 and a half hours ... and for those of you who have been on an An-32 you will know that it is no executive jet ... Mind you ... the C2 Greyhound which I flew a month back or so to land on the USS Nimitz was infinitely worse ... though the rush of snagging a wire and later a cat shot was quite the experience!

Anyway ... on to what you want to know ... Let me begin with a rider: I have very few technical details ... primarily because it was a quick in and out visit with very little time to talk to folks ...

The basic point here is that we may all need to have a small rethink on our jingo-baba ways ... While the performance of Indian pilots was exemplary ... both American and Indian exercise commanders repeatedly told me that so far no one had collected numbers on the individual kills of pilots. What was collected and analysed were the mission objectives and whether they were met. Remember, not all missions were run with the objective of pilots targeting one another ... Many of the 300 missions which were flown were meant for joint training, working out engagement procedures ... partially simulating attack runs etc.

Also, please note ... the majority of missions were joint missions ... not missions where Indians targeted Americans ... So there were missions where formations of Sukhois, Mirages and F-16s took on F-16s, Bisons and Sukhois ... so while it is true that Indian pilots were engaging Americans flying F-16s ... its also true that they were engaging Indian pilots as well. Also, Americans were engaging American aircraft as well.

The bottom line here ... in terms of what Indian pilots did which was impressive ... According to my sources, Indian pilots were extremely impressive in the Large Fighter Engagement exercise where 15 plus aircraft were in the air. Both sides were being given targeting data by the AWACS ... and Indian pilots were apparently much quicker off the mark than their American counterparts in attacking targets which they had been assigned. In other words, they worked well in an AWACS environment.

As far as the WVR Su-30 MKI engagement was concerned ... there were at least two engagements ... one where the MKI was offensive and one where it was defensive. Though I suspect the MKI won the one on one when it was in an offensive position ... I am not sure what happened when it was defensive.

Thats pretty much what I figured out in the little time I was there.

To be absolutely certain, the US Air Force was glowing in its remarks on the pilot skills of Indian pilots. The US General who was around also said ... repeatedly ... I might add ... that the exercise organised in Kalaikunda was the single most impressive exercise of its type which he had seen in decades of being with the USAF.

As far as showmanship was concerned ... There were two F-16s which took off ... the first flew level gaining height steadily ... and then pulled big time ... to go into a Vertical Charlie ... very impressive. The second F-16 I saw also did a vertical jig ... This was done in plain view of the MiG 29U driver who was next to take off ... and he didn't spare the Americans ... the big smoking Tumanskiis announcing his take off run ... and in about half the take off distance of the Americans he pulled ... went vertical immediately ... but not before he pointed his tail squarely at us journos ... the noise was predictably increadible ... and the message of that young jock seemed clear ...

Three other small points ... an An-32 pilot who was tasked to be a high value target had a huge smile on his face ... Though he refused to tell me all the details ... he did say that try as they did ... the opposition F-16s and Indian jets just couldn't lock him up ... He did of course have a fighter escort of his own ...

An AWACS radar operator reportedly told another journalist that the aircraft he loved vectoring the most was the Bison.

and finally ... a Qualis taxi driver paid no attention to instructions ... and passed directly in front of an F-16 which was taxying ... The American had to break sharply ... and looked distinctly irritated ...

All in all ... a great day out ... I have pics ... How do I get them across to BR or to any of you to post here ...??

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor (Defence)
NDTV
Last edited by Vishnu on 18 Nov 2005 16:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby saty » 18 Nov 2005 15:59

Vishnu, Sir you are too good, although I am told you flirt a little too much with the ladies at the cocktail parties :-) at the bases, or do they flirt with you :-)

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Postby Ujjal » 18 Nov 2005 16:01

Thanks for the details, Vishnu. The Qualis driver must've been high on hachish de jingo :D

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Postby Manne » 18 Nov 2005 16:18

Vishnu,

Thanx for the update.

added later:

Your previous comment about rethinking the next round can now be seen in a much better perspective. Do send the photos to mannechi yahoo com in the unlikely event of Jagan not responding. And yes, keep your eyes peeled for Farce lifting your photos. :twisted:

An AWACS radar operator reportedly told another journalist that the aircraft he loved vectoring the most was the Bison.


Guys, what do you make of this? Vishnu? Ved?

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Postby Vishnu » 18 Nov 2005 16:36

At one level ... the Americans are clearly amazed at the Bison ... which was capable of successfully engaging the F-16s ... the radar signature of the Bison is also quite small ...

I suppose the AWACS operator could have been impressed at how it may have been for him to get a track on the Bison ... though this is just me speculating. I don't know more.

Vishnu

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Postby Indrajit » 18 Nov 2005 16:52

Vishnu,u can host the pics on Imageshack or any other site and copy paste the URLs over here,would b great to see them. :D

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Postby daulat » 18 Nov 2005 17:12

the Mig21 is quite tiny compared to most of the others, i was shocked when i saw one up close just how small it really is. given the Bison config, and its inherent T/W and manoueverability - i am sure its very potent. pity about the short legs!

4 bison with 2 Mig29's is my fav mix for handling incoming 8)

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Postby JCage » 18 Nov 2005 18:29

Tiny apart, how many bets that the IAF has done more with the Bison. That said, I'll still be happy if they cap it at 125 and buy more MiG29s and Mirage 2000's apart from the MRCA deal..Qatar deal where art thou!

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Postby JCage » 18 Nov 2005 18:32

Vishnu wrote:At one level ... the Americans are clearly amazed at the Bison ... which was capable of successfully engaging the F-16s ... the radar signature of the Bison is also quite small ...

I suppose the AWACS operator could have been impressed at how it may have been for him to get a track on the Bison ... though this is just me speculating. I don't know more.

Vishnu


Vishnu were there strict range ROE *ie dont engage beyond this limit* this time around or was it a free for all...
The RSAF exercise perhaps played a role in changing how the Bison should be used against the F-16's.

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Postby Vishnu » 18 Nov 2005 18:43

There were obviously lots of variables in each exercises ... but like in the past .. there were fly zones, no fly zones and neutral zones .... where the awacs was deployed ... Each exercise had very specific objectives ... and there was no free for all at all.

Vishnu

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Postby Shankar » 18 Nov 2005 18:48

Vishnu -thanks a million for your update and i like your report on tv yesterday night very much of what you said and what was between the lines .
Bisons keep on surprising me first cope 2004 and then first time i saw it taking off very close in lohegaon yhe quickpreflight and the minimum pilot fuss just like a maruti getting out of a congested car park and effortless landing in less than 1/2 the available runway length

Mig 29 doing a vertical stunt is expected after all they are even toady most acrobatic aircraft in outr inventory ,have seen doing them vertical scissors and barrel rolls way back in 90s and ofcourse the sharp breadth taking vertical climbs when just being inducted .

One raised this point with some very senior HAL he had to admit the fulcrums are the most perfect aerdynamic platforms ever made but then sukhois were yet to come . But he was also bit sceptical about its self defense capability in BVR .

By the way are you attending navy -industry meet in delhi on 25th ?

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Postby Vipul » 18 Nov 2005 20:15

Thanks for the Coverage Vishnu. Waiting now for the Photos to be uploaded.

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Postby Vishnu » 18 Nov 2005 20:18

Hi ... I have 38 high res images which Image Shack isn't accepting because the images are too large ... Can I email it to someone with a monster sized Gmail account or whatever?

Vishnu

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Postby Dileep » 18 Nov 2005 20:30

Vishnu,

Zip them into one zip file and put in rapidshare.de

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Re: Right on top

Postby shiv » 18 Nov 2005 20:52

Vishnu wrote:I have pics ... How do I get them across to BR or to any of you to post here ...??


Vishnu I have emailed you.

Thanks for the report.

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Re: Right on top

Postby Arun_S » 18 Nov 2005 21:04

Vishnu wrote:and finally ... a Qualis taxi driver paid no attention to instructions ... and passed directly in front of an F-16 which was taxying ... The American had to break sharply ... and looked distinctly irritated ..


The amriki jock I am sure banged his hand to Honk but WTF %^$*&^ road rage. Turn around and full blast the musharraf hawadaar thundaar.:twisted: Tit for tat.

Vishnu saar. Thanks.

George J

Postby George J » 18 Nov 2005 21:48

So the take home message is that is that MKI could only handle itself in a WVR offensive role?? WTF? We need more clarity on this issue? What constitutes an offensive and defensive situation. Ved????


Oh and the final take home message? One India Toyota Qualis=One American F-16. :twisted:

PS: BAN AKUMAR FOR USE OF COLOR.

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Postby Vick » 18 Nov 2005 21:52

Offensive situation: The aircraft is trying to penetrate a defended airspace and carry out ops

Defensive situtation: The aircraft is trying to prevent an aggressing aircraft from carrying out ops inside the defended air space

:P

PS: Ban GeorgeJ for using all caps!

George J

Postby George J » 18 Nov 2005 22:03

Vick:

Err whats the difference in these two situation? Is its WVR less effective in defensive coz the a/c has a lot more fuel load? While in offensive it has burnt up a significant portion of the fuel load. Also wouldnt it carry more ordinance in an offensive role. What exactly is offensive? Escorting a package? Does it only carry an AAM load? When its offensive does it NOT carry AG munitions? Should'nt that make it heavier? Would'nt it be easier when you are defending since you have the benefit of SAM cover?

Or was the IAF just trying to perserve its TVC nozzle life by not even trying in a defensive engagement.

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Postby viveks » 18 Nov 2005 22:40

I guess that is why they say.....An offense is the best form of defense.

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Postby sudipn » 18 Nov 2005 22:43

George J wrote:Vick:

Err whats the difference in these two situation? Is its WVR less effective in defensive coz the a/c has a lot more fuel load? While in offensive it has burnt up a significant portion of the fuel load. Also wouldnt it carry more ordinance in an offensive role. What exactly is offensive? Escorting a package? Does it only carry an AAM load? When its offensive does it NOT carry AG munitions? Should'nt that make it heavier? Would'nt it be easier when you are defending since you have the benefit of SAM cover?

Or was the IAF just trying to perserve its TVC nozzle life by not even trying in a defensive engagement.


Bhaisaab.. offensive win is scored by bombing the designated target.. defensive win is scored by not allowing the enemy aircraft to bomb the target.. taking out the opponent aircraft is just one of the ways in which you can win...

George J

Postby George J » 18 Nov 2005 22:51

There is no question of what to bomb or not bomb in the "WVR engagements". The engagement is between an MKI and something. The MKI is either in an offensive mode (escorting a strike package) or defensive mode (CAP). Since BVR was out of the question the MKI patiently waits for its adversary to come into R-73 range. The question is whats different about the MKI in these two situations it affects its performance in WVR enagagements.

The hypothesis was that an MKI is an MKI in any situation BVR or WVR. Thats what makes it an MKI. Its an air-dominance fighter. Now we hear that its can only dominate in offensive WVR but not defensive WVR. So this begs the question why? Is the load out making a difference? Also in an exercise why would it? Its not flying its usual "air defence config" its just flying with R-73 training rounds.

Too many questions.

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Postby Tilak » 18 Nov 2005 23:06

US pilots get 'surprises' from India's ageing MiG-21s

Rezaul H. Laskar, Kalaikunda (West Bengal): US Air Force pilots flying sophisticated F-16 jets were in for a few "surprises" when they squared off with their Indian counterparts in ageing MiG-21 fighters during an exercise at an airbase here.

Though senior Indian and US officials were at pains Thursday to emphasise Cope India 05 - the largest air force exercise between the two sides - was all about cooperation and not competition, others privately admitted the US pilots were often "amazed" by the performance of the Indians.

The nearly two-week-long wargame that began Nov 7 sparked angry demonstrations from Left parties opposed to New Delhi's growing military ties with Washington, but US and Indian pilots were unconcerned with such protests, focusing instead on training for possible joint missions in future.

Gen. D. Deptula, vice commander of the US Pacific Air Force, said the manoeuvres - which featured 12 F-16s flying alongside 26 Indian jets, including Su-30s, MiG-21s, MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s - led to increased mutual understanding that would help both countries respond to "unnamed and unknown" contingencies.

"As these unknown contingencies pop up, we can respond better without wasting time," Deptula told a news briefing.

Deptula and Air Marshal Fali Major, chief of the Indian Air Force's (IAF) Eastern Command, insisted that "kills" or successes during combat missions during Cope India 05 were not tallied or reported, but other officials from both sides privately said the Indians had often surprised the American pilots.

Major merely noted that the "home grown ingenuity and skill of IAF pilots has earned respect from different nations", but some Indian pilots admitted the performance of the ageing but refurbished MiG-21s had "dumbfounded" the Americans.

"This happened despite the fact that the Americans had an AWACS (airborne warning and control system) with them and we had little experience of operating in an AWACS environment," said an IAF pilot who did not want to be named.

Deptula brushed aside protests against the exercise by the Left parties that rule West Bengal state, remarking that the US and India were democracies whose militaries had to protect the rights of expression of all sections of society.

"That's what this is all about - protecting the people's right to articulate their feelings," he said.

Lt. Col. Pete Bastien, a fighter controller on the US E3Sentry AWACS sent from Japan for the exercise, had plenty of praise for India's Su-30 multi-role jets. "We had never flown in India and we had never operated with the IAF. The page was blank and we learnt a lot during this exercise," he said.

Capt. Ben Mosley, an F-16 pilot, was more forthright. "We're very proud to be allies with India and happy that we will work with the IAF," he said after a few training sorties with the Su-30s.

Cope India 05 also marked the return of US forces to Kalaikunda after nearly 60 years - the airbase was created specifically for US Army Air Force pilots to ferry supplies to China over the "hump" of the Himalayas during World War II.

The IAF recently refurbished the airbase for use in future joint exercise with foreign countries. It will also be "hired" by the Singapore Air Force early next year for training exercises, officials said.

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Postby Laks » 18 Nov 2005 23:25

From the Stars and Stripes published by DoD:
Cope India ’06: Fast-paced and full of firsts
Many of the training scenarios task the F-16s to protect ground targets against advancing Indian aircraft — and vice versa.

Each combat sortie is discussed and scored in combined post-flight briefings using a program that “shows the ground track and location of all aircraft during an engagement,” Hanlon said.

“We’re trying to not talk about the scoring stuff,” he added. “I think both sides got a lot of bad press last year and everyone missed the emphasis. More importantly, both sides are doing well and we’re accomplishing the objective that we set out here to obtain.”

It was widely reported after Cope India in February 2004 that the Indian air force scored several unexpected successes against U.S. pilots flying F-15 Eagles.


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pics please!

Postby varhadi » 18 Nov 2005 23:47

Vishnu Saar,

Eagerly waiting for the pics from your visit.
:)

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Postby akumar » 18 Nov 2005 23:49

del
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George J

Postby George J » 19 Nov 2005 00:02

akumar wrote:GeorgeJ
Did something bit you recently ?


Yep...simplicity. Scan through this ENTIRE PAGE and you will see you are the only jingo who thought colour would be a good thing. Why I donno. Like I keep saying...you WILL be read in simple black text you dont need to resort to gimmicks to be read. Its very eyecatching and hence distracting when what you have to say is no more important that what others have to say.

And the very fact that you read till here without me resorting to funky colors should be illustrative of my point. Think about it.

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Postby akumar » 19 Nov 2005 00:07

del
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George J

Postby George J » 19 Nov 2005 00:17

where did the del button go?
Last edited by George J on 19 Nov 2005 01:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Right on top

Postby svinayak » 19 Nov 2005 00:59

Vishnu wrote:What was collected and analysed were the mission objectives and whether they were met. Remember, not all missions were run with the objective of pilots targeting one another ... Many of the 300 missions which were flown were meant for joint training, working out engagement procedures ... partially simulating attack runs etc.

Also, please note ... the majority of missions were joint missions ... not missions where Indians targeted Americans ... So there were missions where formations of Sukhois, Mirages and F-16s took on F-16s, Bisons and Sukhois ...

The bottom line here ... in terms of what Indian pilots did which was impressive ... According to my sources, Indian pilots were extremely impressive in the Large Fighter Engagement exercise where 15 plus aircraft were in the air.




The most important item in this exercise is the joint missions

The large joint mission engagement over 400 kms AWACS control tells us who the target is; the what type of mission is this training for,. It could be SEAD, first air strike to disable vital installations etc.

If there is any information on the no. people involved for each aircraft maintenence and uptime it will give us more information. We need info on turnaround time and mix formation.

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Postby svinayak » 19 Nov 2005 01:02

Is there any connection of the air exercise with simultaneous Operation Desert Strike in Rajastan Border with observers from China and US.

Could this be air support for a desert strike force.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showde ... &cat=India


India showcases military might to foreign observers
Pokhran (Rajasthan) | November 18, 2005 6:15:06 PM IST

Indian Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee Friday joined military officials from 40 countries, including China and the US, to watch Indian armed forces showcase their firepower and strike capabilities here.

It is the first time that India has invited military observers from foreign countries to witness one of its wargames. Exercise Desert Strike in the deserts of Pokhran featured tank and artillery units of the army and frontline combat jets of the air force.

"It is a novel idea that observers have been invited to witness the exercise. The basic objective of India's foreign and security policy is based on two no's - no territorial ambition and no export of ideology," said the minister.

He added that the exercise would help foreigners "see the professionalism of our armed forces".

Senior Colonel Li Zhao of China spoke in fluent Hindi and said: "My impression is the armies of both countries are almost equal in terms of capabilities. The fact that we have been invited shows Indian and Chinese relations are becoming better.

"This will allow us to understand each other and cooperate," he said.

Pakistan, however, was not among the nations invited to send observers, with the top brass of the armed forces deciding to throw open the manoeuvres only to "friendly countries in the immediate and strategic neighbourhood".

Exercise Desert Strike, a 10-day exercise that began Nov 11, is meant to fine-tune doctrines for joint operations by a strike corps - or almost 25,000 troops - of the Indian Army and combat squadrons of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

"The army and air force will test their new equipment, like the T-90 missile-firing tanks, Tungushka air defence systems, unmanned aerial vehicles and communication and surveillance equipment," Brigadier Gurpal Bal had told reporters in New Delhi Wednesday.

Bal and Group Captain B. Suresh of the air force said the exercise would prepare troops for fast-paced manoeuvres in the desert with electronic and information warfare playing a key role.

(IANS)

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F= ... &C=asiapac
India Holds War Games near Pakistan Border
By MANPREET ROMANA, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, POKHRAN, India

India’s military Nov. 18 staged a grand finale to major military maneuvers, showcasing newly acquired T-90 battle tanks and warplanes close to the border with Pakistan in the Thar desert.

The Indian military said New Delhi gave advance notice of the 14-day exercises, code named “Operation Desert Strike,” to neighboring Pakistan in line with a pact between the nuclear-armed rivals, who are engaged in a slow-moving peace process to end their decades-old feud over Kashmir.

“Such exercises show our capability and ability,” said Defense Minister Pranab Mukherjee. He said, however, the war games were not designed to intimidate India’s neighbors.

“India does not have any territorial designs … all our capabilities are just aimed at protecting our interests,” Mukherjee said as supersonic jets dived in mock attacks.

Officials said the exercise was the biggest since the 1987 Operation Brass Tacks in the desert state of Rajasthan, which sent tensions between India and Pakistan skyrocketing. The two countries have fought three wars, two over the Himalayan state of Kashmir.

Forty-two observers and diplomats from 30 countries, including Bangladesh, Britain, China, France and the United States, were at the war games in Pokhran.

“We welcome such observers,” the defense minister said.

Army Chief of Staff Gen. J.J. Singh said Beijing had invited New Delhi and Moscow to send observers to recent Chinese exercises. Ties between India and China, which fought a border war four decades ago, have warmed in recent years.

“Our men also went to China and so we invited them as we are just showing our capabilities and we hope there will be better cooperation in the future,” Singh, head of India’s 1.4-million strong Army, told reporters in Pokhran.

The latest exercises were staged in the vicinity of India’s nuclear testing site, where New Delhi stunned the world by carrying out nuclear tests in May 1998 that sparked tit-for-tat blasts by Pakistan days later.

The Nov. 18 finale came a day after the Indian Air Force wound up joint 12-day exercises with the U.S. Air Force in West Bengal state.

The Indian Air Force, the world’s fourth largest, said that in the Thar exercise it deployed its French-made Mirage-2000s, Russian MiG-27s and MiG-21s and British-designed Jaguar warplanes along with attack helicopters and drones.

“Forty percent of the participation in the exercises is by the Air Force,” said Indian Air Force spokesman Squadron Leader Mahesh Upasini.

The Army said some 20,000 troops, combat vehicles and artillery were also taking part in Operation Desert Strike, aimed at highlighting India’s military capability in a high-tech environment.

“The exercise is of great significance as joint operations have acquired strategic importance,” said a commander quoted by the Press Trust of India news agency, which did not disclose his name.

The Army said the two Gulf Wars were key examples of successful military campaigns in which action was initiated by air power and sustained by ground operations.

India deployed some of the 310 T-90 tanks it bought from Russia, its Cold War ally and biggest military supplier, for 105 million rupees ($2.44 million) each as part of a February 2001 deal.

“These machines are being put to extreme tests in extreme conditions of the Thar,” an armored corps commander said.

Russia supplies 70 percent of India’s military hardware.




Last edited by svinayak on 19 Nov 2005 01:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Prateek » 19 Nov 2005 01:09

Excercises like these, I would like to know more about how USAF and the falcons performed, rather than boasting by IAF. we must be proud of iaf, but time to learn more about usaf.

SaiK
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Postby SaiK » 19 Nov 2005 01:32

top brass of the armed forces deciding to throw open the manoeuvres only to "friendly countries in the immediate and strategic neighbourhood".


china, a friendly country!?!?!?!?!? :shock:

yogindra
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Postby yogindra » 19 Nov 2005 01:39

Isn't inviting china is same thing as honoring TSP?


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