Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part I

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Nov 2005 10:33

Shivji, I'v been on this forum long enuff to know what the initial reasons were for the sarcasm of the short dark rice eating Indian and the tall fair tight assed Puke..But I feel that its time is past, and flogging that same rubbish talk of the Pukes is just not funny anymore..when its time to let something go, it should be let go of, imho.

sorry to stray off topic.

but why is there no news since the past 2 days ?! I just hope that all that rabble rousing by those no good commies has not resulted in a total shutdown on info flow from the exercise..or is it that they are'nt talking about the Ex maybe just not to piss off the commie crap ?

Rajit Ojha · Post by **Rajit Ojha** » 15 Nov 2005 14:51

but why is there no news since the past 2 days ?! I just hope that all that rabble rousing by those no good commies has not resulted in a total shutdown on info flow from the exercise..or is it that they are'nt talking about the Ex maybe just not to piss off the commie crap ?

Ask and thou shalt receive!

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/ ... 0S-001.jpg

Also note the subtle Pepsi advertising in the backdrop

And given all the angst a couple of pages back...here's an Indian giving "gyaan" to a yank.

Ved · Post by **Ved** » 15 Nov 2005 17:45

JCage wrote:Ved- great news- could u take a dekko at my prior statement as well?

"Ved, thanks- by airmen i was being colloquial..referring to pilots...so by world stds, we are average+ to excellent...per the gist of your post.. "

Is that an accurate summary?

I would say definitely average +. Let me tell you a story.... I'm told more than 25 years ago when the Jags were a new acquisition, the IAF was invited to send a pilot to take part in a European flying exercise involving live gunnery on the Jag. Their best Jag guy was chosen, but just before he left he broke a leg, and the standby guy's sister had to get married in a hurry due to some visa problems in the US and so he also begged off. Over the weekend, Air HQ apparently came up with a third guy, hurriedly culled from a list of guys who met the requirements; holidaying with his family in Simla, this guy was plucked out by the neck and sent packing, seething with promises of vengeance against Air HQ, to UK. So he went, set a new NATO gunnery record and came back with at least one of the trophies for gunnery, all set to continue his vacation in Simla!!

I'm sure theres a bit of 'masala' in this story, but the basics, I'm told, are correct.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Nov 2005 22:54

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123012899

U.S., Indian controllers on scope

Looking at the radar, the four F-16 Fighting Falcons were clearly outnumbered as 12 opposition aircraft closed in to fire their weapons.

An E-3 Sentry airborne warning and control systems aircraft started relaying coordinates, preparing the Falcons for their impending battle.

However, this time something was different. The AWACS crew was not soaring high overhead in their Sentry.

Instead, they were on the ground using Indian air force radar and tracking systems as part of exercise Cope India 06. .........

Samir · Post by **Samir** » 15 Nov 2005 22:58

A random tidbit for those who worry about the standing of IAF personnel in flying terms or gen levels:

In the 1970-71 time frame, W/C Harsharan Singh 'High Speed' Gill, CO of 47 Sqn, (later to receive a posthumous Vir Chakra for a raid on Badin), did a aerobatics display in a MiG-21 for the visiting Soviet Air Chief. After the display, the Chief shook his hand and said, "no pilot in my air force can fly the MiG like you". I don't think the Chief's remark was hyperbole - he could have just said "fantastic display" had he not meant the superlative.

Theres plenty more like this. (Overseas Staff College honours stories are out there as well). Yes, I know, trivia, but what the heck.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 15 Nov 2005 23:01

No awacs ????

yogindra · Post by **yogindra** » 15 Nov 2005 23:10

Rajit Ojha wrote:
but why is there no news since the past 2 days ?! I just hope that all that rabble rousing by those no good commies has not resulted in a total shutdown on info flow from the exercise..or is it that they are'nt talking about the Ex maybe just not to piss off the commie crap ?
Ask and thou shalt receive!

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/ ... 0S-001.jpg

Also note the subtle Pepsi advertising in the backdrop

And given all the angst a couple of pages back...here's an Indian giving "gyaan" to a yank.

Am I sleeping or there is indeed cola in water bottle?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Nov 2005 23:11

awacs would be for IAF men to use.. next time, but I guess the last time was all USAF men working with our radar setup. note:

Though this exercise pits U.S. and Indian aircraft -- battling daily overhead -- the exercise ultimately is about crafting understandings and constructing a working relationship between the two air forces.

Our men when get to hold f-16s by its sticks would get the feeling of AWACs, imho.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Nov 2005 23:17

yogindra wrote: Am I sleeping or there is indeed cola in water bottle?

its the color of kalaikunda water. as pure as its gets.

btw, possibilities include:
1. indian rum fina!
2. paan spit
3. tobacco spit [corporate americans are famous for carrying empty coke bottles to spit]
...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Nov 2005 23:20

11/14/2005 - SALUA AIR STATION, India (AFPN) -- Looking at the radar, the four F-16 Fighting Falcons were clearly outnumbered as 12 opposition aircraft closed in to fire their weapons.

An E-3 Sentry airborne warning and control systems aircraft started relaying coordinates, preparing the pilots for their impending battle.

However, this time something was different. The AWACS crew was not soaring high overhead in their Sentry.

Instead, they were on the ground using Indian air force radar and tracking systems as part of exercise Cope India 06.

U.S. controllers have been operating out of the Indian radar facility at Salua Air Station since Nov. 8, as they await the return of their aircraft, which returned to Kadena Air Base, Japan, for maintenance.

“The biggest challenge is getting use to the systems and overcoming the limitations,” said Tech. Sgt. Steven Harshman, a lead weapons director from Kadena’s 961st Airborne Air Control Squadron. “Fortunately most of us have qualified on some sort of ground control station before.”

As Cope India 06 neared the midpoint, fight scenarios intensified with several aircraft participating. Ratcheting up the tempo put added importance on the command and control operators.

“Of course it can be challenging when you have to switch to a system you are not use to using,” said Capt. Michael Thomas, a squadron senior director. “However, with help from our Indian air force counterparts, we have been able to seamlessly transition our operations, keeping our pilots informed and in the game.”

For both the U.S. and Indian controllers operating together has provided many learning opportunities.

“There is a lot of educating for both sides,” Captain Thomas said. “It is always a good opportunity to see how another country’s command and control operations is carried out.”

Though this exercise pits U.S. and Indian aircraft -- battling daily overhead -- the exercise ultimately is about crafting understandings and constructing a working relationship between the two air forces.

“Having Americans control out of here has been a very diplomatic process,” said Lt. Col. Peter Bastien, the squadron’s detachment commander. “The Indian Air Force has been very gracious in working with us so we can continue our work, keeping this exercise flowing.”

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Nov 2005 23:25

Cybaru wrote:No awacs ????

Ludhiana would have been a good place to get it fixed i would think. Why all the way back to Yapan?

yogindra · Post by **yogindra** » 15 Nov 2005 23:41

Is it something fishy about returning this plane back to Japan while it could have stayed here as they are already using Indian radars to keep exercise going?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Nov 2005 00:10

Samir wrote:A random tidbit for those who worry about the standing of IAF personnel in flying terms or gen levels:

In the 1970-71 time frame, W/C Harsharan Singh 'High Speed' Gill, CO of 47 Sqn, (later to receive a posthumous Vir Chakra for a raid on Badin), did a aerobatics display in a MiG-21 for the visiting Soviet Air Chief. After the display, the Chief shook his hand and said, "no pilot in my air force can fly the MiG like you". I don't think the Chief's remark was hyperbole - he could have just said "fantastic display" had he not meant the superlative.

Theres plenty more like this. (Overseas Staff College honours stories are out there as well). Yes, I know, trivia, but what the heck.

Please share more such titbits ! makes for great reading..

yogindra · Post by **yogindra** » 16 Nov 2005 00:42

Instead of sharing there should be formal list of achievements.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 16 Nov 2005 01:44

Having clean, gleaming runways with high albedo makes the damn thing stick
out on moonlit nights in the old days, there was a case in 1971 where the IAF took
pains to "remove" the shine from a new runway. I suppose this makes no sense
nowadays with GPS. On another note all these reports from "Salua" AFS
brings back old memories when one got up at 5 am and subjected ones young bodies to
"sadists" who made you run 6km from JC Ghosh stadium right upto Salua all in the name of developing young minds and bodies. Some went to Salua at night too as some people said to enjoy shall we say the company of nubile "santhaal" women. Fellow now is a big shot architect in Cawnpore.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 16 Nov 2005 01:54

Kartik,

Just straying off the topic to have my final say on this....
The only purpose of me giving the SDRE description was to give an humourous example of a stereotype quite popular with some pakis even now. There was no intention of flog any roobish talk(as boycott would put it) of pakis or anybody else...hence no need to get worked up about it.

And now getting back to the main job of guessing how the f-16s fared against the Sukhois,...

The lady beside the indian guy giving gyaan doesnt look that bad

where are our female IAF officers?

hehehe

[quote="Kartik"]Shivji, I'v been on this forum long enuff to know what the initial reasons were for the sarcasm of the short dark rice eating Indian and the tall fair tight assed Puke..But I feel that its time is past, and flogging that same rubbish talk of the Pukes is just not funny anymore..when its time to let something go, it should be let go of, imho.

sorry to stray off topic.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 16 Nov 2005 02:27

Kartik wrote:
Please share more such titbits ! makes for great reading..

Don't forget the better performance of SHAR pilots against the Rafale in WVR. It was purely due to pilot skill and they were of the opinion that had they flown the Rafale instead, the SHAR would be creamed in WVR too.

I hope the damn AWACS comes back soon enough to be used in the excercises.

Samir · Post by **Samir** » 16 Nov 2005 02:33

During the Alaskan exercises, IAF Jags flew to the edge of sanitized airspace and then ingressed to carry out strikes. One day, AWACS cover broke down - mass confusion reigned. No problems, the Jags went ahead and did their strikes and came back to base. Debriefings were in disarray. Our desi boys were the only ones to have gone ahead - "arre bhai, we are used to doing this only". Needless to say, other forces were suitably impressed.

Yerna · Post by **Yerna** » 16 Nov 2005 02:41

Makes sense. As dependence on technology improves, human skill decreases as we become to rely on machines to do most of our work. The IAF has to do with inferior technology compared to the americans and to make up for this the IAF men need to have extra skills. You can take the analogy of school students of this generation who use calculators to do even the simplest of calculations to that of the older generation who had all the math tables at their finger tips.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 16 Nov 2005 03:30

SaiK wrote:http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123012899

U.S. controllers have been operating out of the Indian radar facility at Salua Air Station since Nov. 8, as they await the return of their aircraft, which returned to Kadena Air Base, Japan, for maintenance.
.........

This is very very very fishy!!! Suddenly the Sentry needs maintenance? Or they don't want to reveal their secrets but by getting access to Indian radar ops room, they are probably learning something they otherwise could not have? Strange. Very strange.
AS

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Nov 2005 04:19

they took some secret stuffs to be decoded to japan or something they don't want us to get exposed to. it could be something that would show their superiority or inferiority, mostly the later.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 16 Nov 2005 05:21

Bherry Bherry feeshy....so now we have yanks running around the IAF radar systems onlee....why didnt they fly out another sentry from Japan to replace the original one??! I doubt the US only has one such aircraft stationed there.

Loved that tidbit about the Jags going ahead with strikes in face of AWACS failure.

Just to confirm....now that the exercises are in full swing any MKIs participating or just the older Ks as I have been hearing?

SaiK wrote:they took some secret stuffs to be decoded to japan or something they don't want us to get exposed to. it could be something that would show their superiority or inferiority, mostly the later.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Nov 2005 05:30

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/ ... 0S-009.jpg

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/ ... 0S-010.jpg

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/ ... 0S-011.jpg

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Nov 2005 07:22

Don't worry guys. Sentry will come back for foto ops. How can we all miss a Sentry flying with Sukhoi escort?

Ved · Post by **Ved** » 16 Nov 2005 08:07

SaiK wrote:awacs would be for IAF men to use.. next time, but I guess the last time was all USAF men working with our radar setup. note:
Though this exercise pits U.S. and Indian aircraft -- battling daily overhead .....
.

Actually, we need to understand that the exercises are not in a 'USAF vs IAF' setting. To avoid precisely this kind of situation on both sides, where zeal and anthusiasm may get out of hand and actually cloud the issue, each side has a mix of USAF and IAF elements, working together as well as against each other. That way, the learning effect is much better.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Nov 2005 08:23

Harry wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Please share more such titbits ! makes for great reading..
Don't forget the better performance of SHAR pilots against the Rafale in WVR. It was purely due to pilot skill and they were of the opinion that had they flown the Rafale instead, the SHAR would be creamed in WVR too.

I hope the damn AWACS comes back soon enough to be used in the excercises.

again, a little off topic, reading ur articles on IN's SHARs got me so excited that I went and bought this Fujimi 1/72 SHAR. and those pics you took, with the new look low viz gray SHARs are of invaluable help in getting a very good close look at them beauties..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Nov 2005 10:43

we are only now starting to develop desi gear for our ADGES. rest assured unkil knows the nuts and bolts of all our european radars and russian origin radars as well via helpful folks like germany and the new-NATO countries.
they might have wanted a look at our operational GCI procedures and comms gear in the worst case.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 16 Nov 2005 12:22

vsunder wrote:Having clean, gleaming runways with high albedo makes the damn thing stick out on moonlit nights in the old days, there was a case in 1971 where the IAF took pains to "remove" the shine from a new runway. I suppose this makes no sense nowadays with GPS.

How many of Indian challengrs have that capability? Given that most of them doe not have high res images of the target area and certainly not surveyed co-ordinates. Thus final acqusition is mark-1 eyes using a prominent visual marker and as index for the frame.

I was looking at the Google Earth image of Hindon and it was very difficult for me to locate few important fetures that I knew intimately when on ground but was so difficult becuse Hindon maintaines its extensive camoflag. So I used runway and some other fetaures to narrow down my search and descrimate ny query. Now I think of low flying jet with ground fast moving below. It is tough very tough when the onyl thing not camoflaged is smaller than 20 m x 20 runway structure.
JMT

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Nov 2005 12:53

I do think TSP and PRC have purchased quickbird and ikonos imagery of all vital targets in india. PRC also has their own iminit sats. as to GPS coordinates, the army of LeT operatives in india can easily cycle past the main gate with a garmin receiver and note down the co-ords. people like scramble and globalsecurity are also helpful there. occasionally spies are also caught with maps of vital installations.

Camo isnt going to be much help, VL Mica will.

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 16 Nov 2005 13:11

Raja Bose wrote: Just to confirm....now that the exercises are in full swing any MKIs participating or just the older Ks as I have been hearing?

This article confirms the Su-30mki's participation:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1051107/a ... 446107.asp

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 16 Nov 2005 14:19

Folks, without the AWACS this exercise is as good as the one we had with Singapore Air Force. Nothing more... USAF flew against the MKI. Win for uncle and PAF.

Action plan in case MKI are going to be part of the entire excercise would be to withdraw MKI stating tech snag.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 16 Nov 2005 14:48

Waah ji Waah, they came, they saw....recorded the MKI radar footprints on a beast that they bought along and which had specially descended for that very purpose, mission accomplished, they fly away with the only worthwhile thing that they had bought along in the first place. Indo-US military co-operation @ work.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 16 Nov 2005 15:05

Deleted by Admin Arun_S: You can weep for a non existant disaster somewhere else. Caution: Pls be useful and keep to yourself your useless onliner comment.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 16 Nov 2005 15:43

Raju wrote:Waah ji Waah, they came, they saw....recorded the MKI radar footprints on a beast that they bought along and which had specially descended for that very purpose, mission accomplished, they fly away with the only worthwhile thing that they had bought along in the first place. Indo-US military co-operation @ work.

Pls read Veds comments- that did not happen!!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 16 Nov 2005 15:46

Did they bring in Su 30 MKI mk3?

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 16 Nov 2005 15:46

Ajay K wrote:Folks, without the AWACS this exercise is as good as the one we had with Singapore Air Force. Nothing more... USAF flew against the MKI. Win for uncle and PAF.
Action plan in case MKI are going to be part of the entire excercise would be to withdraw MKI stating tech snag.

Sheesh guys, read through the whole thread before weeping.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Nov 2005 17:02

> Su 30 MKI mk3?

I think the first of these will appear early next yr onlee. So we cant even if we felt like it.

daulat · Post by **daulat** » 16 Nov 2005 17:45

i would urge uncle-is-devious-theorists to consider the fact that unkil has no need to withdraw the E3 after elint. it can stay in india and do more elint.

besides, the USN will have been profiling the MKI's flying over the Arabian Sea at a discrete distance

also, they flew to France ne c'est pas? lots of unkils listening posts along the way, not to mention data sharing

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 16 Nov 2005 19:32

MKIs didn't go to France.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 16 Nov 2005 21:32

Raju wrote:Waah ji Waah, they came, they saw....recorded the MKI radar footprints on a beast that they bought along and which had specially descended for that very purpose, mission accomplished, they fly away with the only worthwhile thing that they had bought along in the first place. Indo-US military co-operation @ work.

U R not reading what others have already served on a plate and then reading too much between the lines. Can take a horse to water but cant make him drink that has to come from inside. So keep them in mint condition in the basement for higher resale value.

Think about what IAF want to use this opportunity flying w/USAF? Wake up please.