Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part I

George J

Postby George J » 11 Nov 2005 10:44

JCage wrote:Gj,
They need targets to get records for the NCTR on the MKI. :P


Thats what they SHOULD have done in Sindex.....your efforts to console me are in vein....I am inconsolable. :cry: This was the unkindest cut of all...and here I believed the MOD PIB.

....Participating forces include a squadron of F-16 from a USAF base in Japan and various types of IAF fighter aircraft like the SU-30K, Mirage-2000, BISON and MiG-27.....
:(

I need a drink..........

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Postby ashuinalwar » 11 Nov 2005 11:31

Dear all,
Does anyone in this forum have any idea about the results of war games in between India and US ?

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Postby Indrajit » 11 Nov 2005 11:41

ashuinalwar wrote:Dear all,
Does anyone in this forum have any idea about the results of war games in between India and US ?


Arey bhai yeh Test match hain,ODI nahin,thoda intezar kijiye. :P

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Off target

Postby member_7791 » 11 Nov 2005 12:21

and unknown to the USAF guy secretly forming chankian strategies to defeat that technology


If you truly think this is how the Americans are thinking, and that their diplomatic PR face is representative of the complexity of their thinking or approach, it's you who are in for a surprise.


post Cope India 2004 it was funny to see all these guys on the airforce forums trying to rationalise why the F-15s got beaten by elderly bisons


There wasn't much "rationalization" needed when the facts of the scenario were known.


Besides providing good DACT training for USAF and building interoperability, part of the game is for the USAF to cry wolf so that they get more funding.


Excellent point that many non-Americans do not grasp, despite the long history of the Pentagon doing just this. Crying wolf is not always _simply_ crying wolf, mind you. Sometimes it's necessary to play up a potential problem as more than it really is in order just to get the funding to deal with the actual level of threat in the U.S. system.

Interoperability is another excellent point that seems strangely overlooked here. This is how the U.S. operates, and it benefits greatly from it. America often plays coy about its capabilities, often because it's politically difficult to fully employ them. With the leash off, U.S. capabilities are significantly more advanced than many people want to believe, and its strategic thinking is VASTLY more multi-layered, complex and long-term than people believe.


You need good PR, if you run up huge bills all around the world, doing things which the US taxpayer may not approve of, but having to convince them anyway.


As a side note pertaining to "huge bills all around the world" - U.S. debt loads as a percentage of its economy are smaller than those of virtually every other developed economy, and many large developing economies such as India's. For example, America's current federal budget deficit is 2.6% of GDP, versus around 4.5% for India. Overall public debt for India is in the double-digit range. Because America's GDP is so much more massive than any other single nation's, the dollar amounts of its debts and deficits appear huge and have a far larger impact on global finance, but versus the resources available to the U.S. those figures leave the U.S. in reality in a much better fiscal situation than many of its critics.



But US human capability is average to average (-), by our standards, and its proven everyday.


The same way various negative stereotypes of Indians are "proven" every day? The U.S. has been vastly underestimated by many, and yet it never turns out to be the slow, slovenly, broken dullard it's portrayed as. Yet such stereotypes persist. Odd, no? It's almost as if the U.S. does little to hide its dirty laundry, and permits the stereotypes to go unchallenged.


The MKI “is an amazing jet that has a lot of maneuverability,” an essential trait when fighters fly within visual range of their enemy during combat missions, Captain Mentch said.


Which underscores what I said above. (And what others elsewhere note.) This sounds like high praise - and it is, but within a certain scope, that scope being that the reality is that U.S. (and other advanced Air Forces) doctrine and technology revolves heavily around eliminating the enemy _well_ before visual range.


And, finally, these exercises for the U.S. are _not_ about "winning." If this is how you see the Americans' mindset toward these things then I submit once more that you are operating under some grave misunderstandings of how they think and operate. Winning or losing a cooperative exercise does not matter to them. Their goals are multi-faceted: Analysis of their performance within narrow ranges, analysis of Indian performance within narrow ranges, overlapping of ranges and concommitant performance by both sides, deepening military-to-military ties, expanding interoperability, getting a feel for the attitudes of Indians, the atmosphere, and the mindset of Indian officers, and many, many more. Coming out on the winning or losing side of a scorecard doesn't change their large technological edge, their resources, their experience, their talent, their geostrategic position. It does _nothing_ for them except _help them improve_ if necessary, at the possible cost of having some people engage in empty, often misguided chest-thumping and gloating.

Can you not see this? The U.S. is not where it's at simply due to fortune or luck or happenstance, regardless of how many people try to play it off that way. Even the Chinese, as they have emerged more onto the global stage, and as is evidenced by their defense and political white papers, have abandoned their similar long-held beliefs. They now speak of a new-found appreciate for the depth and breadth of the position of the United States, and government universities have published several papers in the past few years that have done a 180 degree turn and frankly discuss that they believe the U.S. is not only not a waning superpower but that it will likely strengthen through century (while China and India do as well, of course). This is not the country of the stereotypes. That sort of behavior and mindset, the stereotypical "short-term thinking," the ego and the arrogance -- all of those are PRESENT in the United States, obviously, but their display obscures the fact but those are not the CORE of the country.

The U.S. does many foolish, sometimes stupid things. But the U.S. itself, its long-term course and its core systems, instutitions, goals and planning are _not_.

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Postby Murugan » 11 Nov 2005 12:53

The same way various negative stereotypes of Indians are "proven" every day? The U.S. has been vastly underestimated by many, and yet it never turns out to be the slow, slovenly, broken dullard it's portrayed as. Yet such stereotypes persist. Odd, no? It's almost as if the U.S. does little to hide its dirty laundry, and permits the stereotypes to go unchallenged.


great, great...
Highly professional, highly technologically advance, humint is very powerful...
good good...

then there are keyhole satellites - but where are/were the WMDs of Iraq?
Super humint and ******** spies - where is Soya Bin Laden or charakavi?

Super trained motivated manpower with technological superiority:
Katrina made a difference

Great GDP
and 75 F-16 to your milk fed serpents
what is for poor Indians with less GDP?

very great !!

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Postby Anand K » 11 Nov 2005 13:08

Incendiary attack warning........................

Pleej shtikk to the thread folkjjjj. We'll do the "Who's got the bigger Richard" in the hot air forum. :P

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Postby shiv » 11 Nov 2005 14:13

ashuinalwar wrote:Dear all,
Does anyone in this forum have any idea about the results of war games in between India and US ?


Yes.

The US scored 6 goals but the Indians were playing cricket.

So the jury is out and we are waiting for the verdict which should be out on the 20th of November.

Watch this space!!

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Postby Ved » 11 Nov 2005 20:20

JCage wrote:
How would you rate ourselves then- average or above? Asking as there are many contradictory articles on how the IAF "slots" its airmen by capability.


I assume we are inherently 'average +' to above 'average', by world standards. This is not because we are supermen, but because it is one of the spinoffs of adapting to less-than-ideal equipment, resources, manning and finances. Example: have you ever heard of anyone repairing a PCB? Most folks just replace a suspect PCB. But it happens here (on the decline, thankfully), whether in an air conditioned lab or shack in Bhagirath Palace, is besides the point.

When you say 'airmen', do you mean officers or PBOR (what the IAF refers to as 'airmen').?

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Postby Dileep » 11 Nov 2005 21:10

Ved, ref to my earlier post, I would like to know how the relationship of aircraft and pilot works in IAF. Who is primarily responsible for the aircraft? Pilot? Maintenance guy? Commanding officer of the sq? And whether a pilot has an assigned ac? Or does he get assignment on a mission by mission basis?

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Postby Arun_S » 11 Nov 2005 22:14

Forgestone: Welcome. But I want you to adher to BR Forum guideline that you should have read before clicking your approval. The user name you chose is invalid. BR requires use of a normal human name. Pls modify it immediately. -Arun_S Admin hat on.


Dileep wrote:Ved, ref to my earlier post, I would like to know how the relationship of aircraft and pilot works in IAF. Who is primarily responsible for the aircraft? Pilot? Maintenance guy? Commanding officer of the sq? And whether a pilot has an assigned ac? Or does he get assignment on a mission by mission basis?


Ved is the utimate authority on the subject; but from my limited understanding is it is a cross functional responsibility. Thus turnaround and uptime is Tech officers responsibility. CO is anyway overall responsible for all. The buck stops there. To best of my knowledge pilots are not assigned aircraft. Aircraft is a pool resource and pilots are pool resource too that are asisgned on mission and avaiability basis.

BTW someone earlier said IAF tech officers doing the maintentence work. Remember that IAF is not super-rich like US/european AF. Thus the maintenance procedure and checkout process are vastly different. So while western AF are largely based on higher assembly level FRU (Field Replaceable Units) where as Indian approach the FRU is smaller assembly parts, and deeper disassembly and assembly. That requires greater skill & inspection.

The bottomline is that IAF maintenance crew do much more & more detailed work compared to westerns procedure thus the maint heavy process require effort and skill of both airmen and technical officers. There is nothing to rue about it. IAF runs its house different from others. The bottomline comparision is the punch the organization deliver. And that is the only bottomline

George J

Postby George J » 11 Nov 2005 22:30

shiv wrote:Yes. The US scored 6 goals but the Indians were playing cricket.So the jury is out and we are waiting for the verdict which should be out on the 20th of November.Watch this space!!



6 Goals??? You means 6 touchdowns......only women play soccer in the US. :twisted:

Now back to me drowning my sorrows about IAF flaunting the MKI. :(

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Postby Shishir » 11 Nov 2005 22:46

GJ,
Maybe we need to wait for confirmation by DDM that MKI's were in fact used. So far we just have the one yankee article.....
Even if we did use them, I hope we did not bare all and maybe even allowed them to score over us a few times. :twisted:

George J

Postby George J » 11 Nov 2005 22:56

You jingos disgust me, I found a story on Oracle's forum about Cope India that was NOT picked up by BRF. THis is what happens when you get distracted from your message.

Kalaikunda: IAF men display AWACS instinct Courtesy: Bring it On, from Oracle's Forum

....... The IAF, which virtually has no experience in flying in an advanced airborne radar environment, is at least two years away from owning an AWACS fleet, but has all that's needed for an “eye in the sky” killer profile. (George: See Ved's comment on previous pages)

...........But the IAF's real test will be during the Large Force Engagement (LFE) sorties to begin on November 12-13, when AWACS will come into full use by both forces. LFE sorties involve full squadron-sized missions, implying about 30 fighters of both will be airborne at the same time using the E-3 AWACS for cooperative target designation.

The E-3 will give the teams battle information and location of “adversaries” as also instructions.........

The USAF is especially under pressure from the Pentagon not to show the F-16 Falcon in bad light, since Washington wants this exercise to work also as a subtle tool for sales to New Delhi. ..........

During the current exercise, while trying to play down what had become virtually a diplomatic embarrassment last year, exercise director Gp Capt Hari Kumar has been told not to comment on which side performs better. But the IAF has also told its men to keep up the good work. :twisted:

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Postby SaiK » 12 Nov 2005 01:57

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123012868
11/10/2005 - KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India (AFPN) -- For the first time, U.S. pilots faced the Indian Air Force’s most advanced, and newest, fighter -- the Su-30 MKI -- during an exercise Cope India 06 mission here.

-16 Fighting Falcon pilots Capt. Martin “Gabby” Mentch and 1st Lt. Robert “Pipes” Stimpson were the first to mix it up with the Su-30s Nov. 9.

The Airmen, deployed here with the 13th Fighter Squadron from Misawa Air Base, Japan, flew against the new jets, which have a thrust-vector capability and updated avionics.

The MKI “is an amazing jet that has a lot of maneuverability,” an essential trait when fighters fly within visual range of their enemy during combat missions, Captain Mentch said.

The American fighters are also squaring off against an older version of the Su-30 Flanker during the exercise, which runs through Nov. 19. The Indians are also flying the MiG-21 Fishbed, MiG-27 Flogger, MiG-29 Fulcrum and Mirage 2000 against U.S. Airmen participating in the exercise.

With all these different types of aircraft, the training the pilots are getting here is invaluable, said Lt. Col. Hugh “Hef” Hanlon, the Misawa squadron commander.

“Flying against dissimilar aircraft gives us a different level of training than if we were back home just flying against ourselves,” he said.

Colonel Hanlon also said flying against the Indian aircraft is a thrill.

“In all my 18 years in the Air Force, I’ve dreamed of going up against these aircraft,” he said.

In addition to the initial MKI-F-16 encounter, the exercise has another piece of history to it.

Americans are learning from their Indian counterparts that this is the first time U.S. Airmen have operated from here since World War II. Back then, Army Air Forces pilots flew supply missions from here. Many of those missions were to China, over “the hump” of the Himalaya Mountains.

About 250 U.S. Airmen from throughout the Pacific region are participating in the exercise, which Colonel Hanlon said is “a once in a lifetime opportunity.”

"We’re proud to represent the Air Force and the United States of America,” he said.

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Postby SaiK » 12 Nov 2005 02:12

http://gnn.tv/headlines/5960/Why_India_ ... de_Concern

THE LEFT HAS A REASON TO BE CONCERNED HERE... read: wrote:
Defenders of the current Cope India do not omit to suggest an anti-Pakistan dimension to it. Security expert Jasjit Singh, in a newspaper article, notes that “the Americans are employing the F16 fighters, backed by AWACS (the Airborne Warning and Control System) this time.” The exercise, he argues, gives “a unique opportunity to our air warriors” to practice against Pakistan’s air force, which has been operating F16s for years and is waiting to acquire its AWACS from Sweden.


The mock battle over paddy fields was greeted by tens of thousands of militant demonstrators below with slogans asking the Bush air force to go back.
The media defenders of the exercise miss an important point when they ask in all feigned innocence why the Left and others should object to it when they did not oppose exercises with Russia and China.

while India and US fight in a network centric AWACS warfare regime, the LEFTIES are fighting from a Paki centric warfare regime. The force of induced currents emanating for earstwhile east pakistan is un-questionable here...

As we have seen in these columns before, New Delhi has not concealed its keenness to be counted among these crusaders, especially if the PSI could be turned into a US-India alliance against Pakistan as a promoter of nuclear proliferation. In June 2003, New Delhi tried to rope China into joint “anti-piracy” exercises in the Straits of Malacca. Beijing, with significant stakes in Southeast Asia, however, declined.


Why should not the left raise hue and cry, if our IAF needs to be practicing with warplanes that would beat the heck outta pakistan. sheesh! understand folks... and the message is straight from the fatherland! china, the staunch supporter of terrorism and terrorist state of pakistan.

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Postby srai » 12 Nov 2005 05:55

Little dated ... from VayuSena

Cope India 2004 - A "Staged Dogfight"?
Analysis and Some Lessons
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-cope-india-vayu.html

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Postby srai » 12 Nov 2005 06:17

U.S., India Military Exercise: A Test of U.S. Air Superiority
November 07, 2005 22 13 GMT
http://www.stratfor.com/products/premiu ... ?id=258189

George J

Postby George J » 12 Nov 2005 06:46

srai wrote:U.S., India Military Exercise: A Test of U.S. Air Superiority
November 07, 2005 22 13 GMT
http://www.stratfor.com/products/premiu ... ?id=258189


Login and pwd? Please post excerpts.

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Postby srai » 12 Nov 2005 06:51

George J wrote:
srai wrote:U.S., India Military Exercise: A Test of U.S. Air Superiority
November 07, 2005 22 13 GMT
http://www.stratfor.com/products/premiu ... ?id=258189


Login and pwd? Please post excerpts.


Apparently you can get the page through Google (which seems to log the user in as Google Guest).
So search under Google News for cope india 2005

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Postby Shishir » 12 Nov 2005 07:01

Nothing new in the article...

Edited later: Excerpts only since this is a subscription site..

Analysis

A 12-day military exercise began Nov. 7 between a squadron of U.S. Air Force F-16s from Misawa Air Base in Japan and pilots from the Indian air force at the Kalaikunda air base in India's West Bengal state. The exercise, called Cope India 2005, aims to foster closer military ties between Washington and New Delhi, and test Indian pilots' ability to operate in an combat environment controlled by airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft. In February 2004, the last time the U.S. Air Force participated in Cope India exercises, the Indian pilots bested U.S. flyers in several mock-combat engagements.

As other countries -- friend and foe -- better train and equip their air forces, the United States' near-total air dominance could erode.

Washington's foreign policy relies on U.S. air superiority throughout the world. Once a country's air force is eliminated from the battlefield, U.S. planes can penetrate its airspace almost at will to attack enemy leadership, air defense targets and command-and-control facilities. By controlling the air, the U.S. military can operate more freely on the ground without having to worry about significant casualties, even during a major military operation. Having this superiority makes it easier for Washington to consider taking the military option in a crisis.
The Indian air force is equipped with the Russian-built Su-30 MKI Flanker, a powerful fighter capable of performance equal to that of the U.S. F-15C. Even more threatening to U.S. air dominance than advanced combat aircraft, however, are the advanced weapons they deploy. In recent years, the proliferation of modern weapons has narrowed the gap between the U.S. Air Force and some of the world's other air forces. Powerful avionics such as those in the Su-30 and India's French-built Mirage 2000 have given other countries BVR combat capability.
Helmet-mounted sights have been standard equipment on Russian-made MiG-29 Fulcrums and Flankers, as well as the Mirage 2000 for years. The United States, however, only began to field its helmet-mounted sight in 2003.

Active Radar missiles such as the AA-12, MICA RF, combined with heat-seekers such as the Python 4, allow pilots to shave seconds off their reaction time, which can make the critical difference between life and death in air combat. India's neighbor to the north, China, also operates a large arsenal of the formidable Su-30 MKK. China also has earlier versions of the Python missile and is developing its own version of the AA-12.
Military budget cuts meant to offset the financial burden of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are a prime hindrance to U.S. efforts to maintain its air dominance. For example, orders for the new $250 million F/A-22 Raptor stealth fighter, which began reaching squadron service in 2005, have been cut twice from an original order of 750 in 1991 to 276 in 2005.

The last time the U.S. and Indian air forces met in mock combat, U.S. pilots in F-15s lost several engagements with Indian Su-30 MKI Flankers, which were equipped with AA-12s and flown by expert pilots. This time, the United States might be "stacking the deck" by bringing along an AWACS aircraft -- giving American pilots greater situational awareness than their adversaries.

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Postby Ved » 12 Nov 2005 08:57

Dileep wrote:Ved, ref to my earlier post, I would like to know how the relationship of aircraft and pilot works in IAF. Who is primarily responsible for the aircraft? Pilot? Maintenance guy? Commanding officer of the sq? And whether a pilot has an assigned ac? Or does he get assignment on a mission by mission basis?


I think I have little to add to ArunS's explanation, as below.

Arun_S wrote:Forgestone: ... Thus turnaround and uptime is Tech officers responsibility. CO is anyway overall responsible for all. The buck stops there. To best of my knowledge pilots are not assigned aircraft. Aircraft is a pool resource and pilots are pool resource too that are asisgned on mission and avaiability basis.


The pilot is responsible for the aircraft from the time he signs for it before the sortie, till he signs off at the end of the sortie. All other times its under the care of specific areas of the engineering staff. Incidentlally, that is how all AFs do it. The 'ownership' of the aircraft is only a semantic tool, more of a bonding gimmick.

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Postby Singha » 12 Nov 2005 09:08

afaik, the EF and Rafale has been flown in red flag but certain electronic stuff is never turned on. same for the americans...some stuff is never used in NATO exercises. a senior afm member (NOT oracle!) once PMed me a detailed note on it. the french have shown off *some* of the SPECTRA capability and earned a lot of respect for spectra whatever was shown.

the full range of WVR manouvering is used however. no restrictions on airframe stuff.

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Postby Mohan Raju » 12 Nov 2005 09:57

George J wrote:Now back to me drowning my sorrows about IAF flaunting the MKI. :(


:roll: George, for God's sake stop being such a worry-wart! Follow your own advice: don't worry, have some curry. :lol:

There is no way the IAF would be so stupid as to reveal the full capabilities of the MKI. I'll eat my hat if that ever happens. Or better still, I'll visit you, we can have a backyard barbecue (a "crowbecue") and I'll eat all the crow you can throw on the burner.

Now please get back to your regularly-scheduled activities of bashing pushy newbies around. :rotfl:

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All in a days work

Postby Vishnu » 12 Nov 2005 17:01

I shall say this and no more ... at least not yet ... but for all of you out there worried about how the IAF is coping with the USAF ... stop, have a long cold one ... and start thinking about how we may or may not perform in the NEXT COPE exercises.

Vishnu Som
:wink:

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Postby JCage » 12 Nov 2005 17:21

Ved, thanks- by airmen i was being colloquial..referring to pilots...so by world stds, we are average+ to excellent...per the gist of your post..

vishnu,

:)

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Postby Rajit Ojha » 12 Nov 2005 17:25

I shall say this and no more ... at least not yet ... but for all of you out there worried about how the IAF is coping with the USAF ... stop, have a long cold one ... and start thinking about how we may or may not perform in the NEXT COPE exercises.

Vishnu Som


No...we'd rather focus on this one right now...so if you have something...spill it :twisted:

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Postby JE Menon » 12 Nov 2005 20:13

He already has... So as MR reminded GJ, not to worry be happy.... :D Tx Vishnu

George J

Postby George J » 12 Nov 2005 23:21

MR ji:
Its not a whine.....its a betryal of trust issue....I was told that they wont get to see the MKI anytime soon and now low and behold....anyway I am over it. The MKI sux anyway. :twisted: Besides, I dont push newbies, I socially engineer them.

Shishir:
Thanks....but too many holes to be taken seriously.

Rest:
Whats gonna be different the next time? There will still be no Phalcons from our side...so unless we have perfected some cool new AWACS killing techniques (any hints of which will itself be a terrible waste of resources anyway) whats gonna happen? We know that you really cant use MKI to its full potential unless you want them to hardwire MKI jamming frequencies for the CI07 (or if I actually trust what I have been told in CI06 itself). So its catch 22.

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Postby srai » 13 Nov 2005 15:39

George J wrote:...
Rest:
Whats gonna be different the next time?
...


* F/A-18 E/F

* Combo F-15, F-16, F-18

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Postby Shankar » 13 Nov 2005 18:16

a calculated guess - f-16s with full sentry support which implies data linking strict emcon and ground hugging flight profile atleast for a part of the attack plan is bad news even for su-30 mkis . The whole idea of this exercise from IAF point of view is may be to get an idea the real force multiplication effect an awac can provide in air interception environment and identify its own lacunas so that when the phalcons come it will know how best to use them in both offensive support and defensive networking. What really would be interesting to know is if the flankers by some innovative tactics able to pentrate the sentrys escort screen and make a kill therby levelling the playing field even at some cost .The gap so formed can be then exploited to press home the attack but then only Visnu can help and he is not talking lets see if some paan wala who suplies coke to usaf in kalaikunda has some definite information -trying

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Postby Ved » 14 Nov 2005 07:43

George J wrote:MR ji:
Its not a whine.....its a betryal of trust issue....I was told that they wont get to see the MKI anytime soon and now low and behold....anyway I am over it. The MKI sux anyway. ......


Thankfully, the IAF arent sitting on their brains - sure, the USAF got to see the MKIs,but only during the initial stages of basic manoeuvering. Once the actual electronic work started, the MKIs were replaced by Ks.

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Postby Rajit Ojha » 14 Nov 2005 08:02

Once the actual electronic work started, the MKIs were replaced by Ks.


And you know this as an absolute fact...how :?:

Since this thread is rapidly moving into the realms of wild conjencture, with jingo starved of info...here's a filler about the great interest Cope India seems to be generating in the U.S. Military community, including a hat tip to BR :)

http://officersclub.blogspot.com/2005/11/us-india-air-exercise-held.html

and

http://officersclub.blogspot.com/2005/11/more-on-cope-india.html

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Postby JCage » 14 Nov 2005 08:42

Ved- great news- could u take a dekko at my prior statement as well?

"Ved, thanks- by airmen i was being colloquial..referring to pilots...so by world stds, we are average+ to excellent...per the gist of your post.. "

Is that an accurate summary?

How did the IAF feel about the RSAF and its pilots/ maint ppl?

Rajit,

Ved knows...and lets just leave it at that.

George J

Postby George J » 14 Nov 2005 09:00

Ved wrote: ........ Once the actual electronic work started, the MKIs were replaced by Ks.


And I shall buy you a drink for that news.

Rajit:
Great find...oh and Ved knows...so thats that. :twisted:

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Postby SaiK » 14 Nov 2005 09:04

The MKI “is an amazing jet that has a lot of maneuverability,” an essential trait when fighters fly within visual range of their enemy during combat missions, Captain Mentch said.

The American fighters are also squaring off against an older version of the Su-30 Flanker during the exercise, which runs through Nov. 19. The Indians are also flying the MiG-21 Fishbed, MiG-27 Flogger, MiG-29 Fulcrum and Mirage 2000 against U.S. Airmen participating in the exercise.

In addition to the initial MKI-F-16 encounter,..
.

these wordings should satisfy the crow-eaters. MKI has an initial exposure is a definite conclusion. But, nothing like the inside news.

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Re: Off target

Postby Raja Bose » 15 Nov 2005 00:57

Since this was such a big post I didnt want to respond but what the heck...the conference speaker is getting boring and I am tired for doctoring mushrat pics. So here goes.....

and unknown to the USAF guy secretly forming chankian strategies to defeat that technology

If you truly think this is how the Americans are thinking, and that their diplomatic PR face is representative of the complexity of their thinking or approach, it's you who are in for a surprise.


Nobody was born yesterday so I doubt that the IAF doesn't factor the above in during these types of engagements. It is indeed amusing when people try to project the USAF as something so grand that other AFs cannot be begin to imagine their inner workings....the USAF is made up of normal humans too not demigods...so their strategies, operating procedures are not something unfathomable to other humans. The USAF is definitely the most advanced and powerful airforce today (and I would say for the near future easily) but as far as manpower goes I think the IAF is as good as any of the more advanced AFs....just because they dont come from a 1st world nation doesnt mean their thinking capability is not 1st class. Also sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of people think that in these exercises the poor IAF is all naive, bright and eager to play with shiny USAF toys while the USAF is craftily gathering intel re.IAF capabilities....so I wonder who is being naive.

post Cope India 2004 it was funny to see all these guys on the airforce forums trying to rationalise why the F-15s got beaten by elderly bisons

There wasn't much "rationalization" needed when the facts of the scenario were known.


Actually I should have included some more details on this....but the impression I had got while browsing those forums was the unwillingness to concede that there are other AFs with pilots as skilled as the ones in USAF(albeit with access of lower technology). One would find many posts implying that IAF only had it's experienced flight instructors and expert pilots fly in that exercise. From whatever experience I have of the Indian armed forces...they certainly dont live in cuckoo land like our esteemed neighbour to the west and I doubt they would want to get themselves lulled into a false sense of superiority (The 1962 war certainly cleared out any such false hangovers about superiority).


Besides providing good DACT training for USAF and building interoperability, part of the game is for the USAF to cry wolf so that they get more funding.

Excellent point that many non-Americans do not grasp, despite the long history of the Pentagon doing just this. Crying wolf is not always _simply_ crying wolf, mind you. Sometimes it's necessary to play up a potential problem as more than it really is in order just to get the funding to deal with the actual level of threat in the U.S. system.


There is nothing to grasp here. This is a tactic used by just about any organisation to get resources....American or Non-american. This is not exactly some kind of abstract high level tactic requiring advanced thinking skills. As far as tackling threats is concerned any professional force will take the approach you mentioned. I am sure the IAF also imbibes it's lessons from any such exercise based on it's threat perceptions and needs and pushes the beancounter babus in the GoI for stuff they need.

Interoperability is another excellent point that seems strangely overlooked here. This is how the U.S. operates, and it benefits greatly from it. America often plays coy about its capabilities, often because it's politically difficult to fully employ them. With the leash off, U.S. capabilities are significantly more advanced than many people want to believe, and its strategic thinking is VASTLY more multi-layered, complex and long-term than people believe.


The USAF is coy about its capabilities....IAF is coy about its capabilities nothing new here....none of these two forces are staffed by wide eyed innocents. Interoperability is one of the key things of these kind of exercises...for both AFs. Strategic/Chankian thinking is complex and multi-layered for any country that can be called a country...especially so for big countries with some clout.....I doubt policy for any country gets made at the local tea shop over a round of tea and cookies ;-)
As far as operating with the leash off is concerned...forget about that scenario I dont see that happening unless US turns into some crazy military dictatorship (I am rooting for Madeline Half-bright if that happens!) ;) All armies with democratic govts. controlling them operate under restraint...sometimes with a hand tied behind their back.


But US human capability is average to average (-), by our standards, and its proven everyday.

The same way various negative stereotypes of Indians are "proven" every day? The U.S. has been vastly underestimated by many, and yet it never turns out to be the slow, slovenly, broken dullard it's portrayed as. Yet such stereotypes persist. Odd, no? It's almost as if the U.S. does little to hide its dirty laundry, and permits the stereotypes to go unchallenged.


Stereotypes exist for every country...Americans are bad at math, Indians are short dark and eat rice, british are snobs, french are pansies....but only fools believe them. Any country which gets taken in by these learns it's mistake at a heavy cost (Pakistan's 1 Paki=10 Indians being one that got disproved pretty soundly I would say in 65,71).

And, finally, these exercises for the U.S. are _not_ about "winning." If this is how you see the Americans' mindset toward these things then I submit once more that you are operating under some grave misunderstandings of how they think and operate. Winning or losing a cooperative exercise does not matter to them. Their goals are multi-faceted: Analysis of their performance within narrow ranges, analysis of Indian performance within narrow ranges, overlapping of ranges and concommitant performance by both sides, deepening military-to-military ties, expanding interoperability, getting a feel for the attitudes of Indians, the atmosphere, and the mindset of Indian officers, and many, many more. Coming out on the winning or losing side of a scorecard doesn't change their large technological edge, their resources, their experience, their talent, their geostrategic position. It does _nothing_ for them except _help them improve_ if necessary, at the possible cost of having some people engage in empty, often misguided chest-thumping and gloating.


Again nothing grand about how the americans think or operate and nothing surprising about the stuff you mentioned(those high flown words makes it sound more like an MBA term presentation!). They are a highly professional force and it is only expected of them to be like that. Ditto for IAF and other AFs.
Surprisingly after Cope India '04 we had all these quotes from USAF personnel but very few from the IAF personnel. So I doubt any sort of 'chest thumping' was done or intended...the IAF viewpoint was they did a good job and that they knew all along they were good...its just that others got to know that as well. Nothing more, nothing less.

Can you not see this? The U.S. is not where it's at simply due to fortune or luck or happenstance, regardless of how many people try to play it off that way. Even the Chinese, as they have emerged more onto the global stage, and as is evidenced by their defense and political white papers, have abandoned their similar long-held beliefs. They now speak of a new-found appreciate for the depth and breadth of the position of the United States, and government universities have published several papers in the past few years that have done a 180 degree turn and frankly discuss that they believe the U.S. is not only not a waning superpower but that it will likely strengthen through century (while China and India do as well, of course). This is not the country of the stereotypes. That sort of behavior and mindset, the stereotypical "short-term thinking," the ego and the arrogance -- all of those are PRESENT in the United States, obviously, but their display obscures the fact but those are not the CORE of the country.


There is nothing to see here. The US is where it is due to fortune, luck AND smart thinking & hardwork (apart from having very nice neighbours). It has always had geographical stability in it's own neighbourhood which is a key thing for strong development. After all how many times has the US mainland been attacked in times of war....the US population has never experienced the horrors of war directly on their homeland. This makes a big difference. India has not been fortunate in this matter but still I would say the same for India as regards its progress in the last 50 years, unspectacular as it may be for some people. Like I said before stereotypes are just stereotypes...no country is accurately portrayed by its stereotypes.

As far as Chinese whitepapers which are full of praise and 'frank discussion' are concerned...dont read too much into it....they are too chankian to tell the whole world what they are actually thinking! :wink:

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Postby Harry » 15 Nov 2005 01:19

Indians are short dark and eat ricebut only fools believe them


Watch what you write. That's not a stereotype about Indians but what the West Pakis read/wrote in their school textbooks about East pakistanis.

Pakistan's 1 Paki=10 Indians being one that got disproved pretty soundly I would say in 65,71


Again, this is not a stereotype but Ayub Khan's unique blather. Too bad we did'nt make such claims as they would have actually been proven in combat.
Last edited by Harry on 15 Nov 2005 01:25, edited 1 time in total.

Kartik
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Postby Kartik » 15 Nov 2005 01:22

Harry wrote:
Indians are short dark and eat ricebut only fools believe them


Watch what you write. That's not a stereotype about Indians but what the West Pakis read/wrote in their textbooks about East pakis.


exactly ! and the irritating thing is seeing how many times this is getting mentioned on BR even as a joke ! its almost as if we ourselves have started believing in that crap..its high time people stopped using it even sarcastically.

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Postby Harry » 15 Nov 2005 01:29

Kartik wrote:
exactly ! and the irritating thing is seeing how many times this is getting mentioned on BR even as a joke ! its almost as if we ourselves have started believing in that crap..its high time people stopped using it even sarcastically.


Absolutely. Just because some pakis spouted that crap a very long time ago, does'nt mean it should be entertained. Imagine if the average kwashiorkorstani started talking about his "muscles" on forums? :D

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Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2005 07:51

Kartik wrote:
Harry wrote:
Indians are short dark and eat ricebut only fools believe them


Watch what you write. That's not a stereotype about Indians but what the West Pakis read/wrote in their textbooks about East pakis.


exactly ! and the irritating thing is seeing how many times this is getting mentioned on BR even as a joke ! its almost as if we ourselves have started believing in that crap..its high time people stopped using it even sarcastically.


The overdone hype of SDRE Indians vs TFTA Pakis came at a time when people on BRF were spending 50% of their time on unmentionable fora and bringing information that "worried" them on here and asking for "reinforcements" from here to go and fight battles over there.

In other words the "character" of BRF was getting tied up to what was happening on unmentionable fora, echoing and responding to what they did or they said rather than concentrating of discussions and info over here. And we were also giving them a lot of traffic - the way we nowadays give the Friday e Times or Dawn.

It became easy to ping the Pakis by this "reverse" humor in which we got a laugh every time there was the hint of a TFTA or 10:1 brag.

It served a psy-ops purpose at that time and needs to be remembered more as a psy-ops tool that has become a standing joke. No need to get too touchy either way.


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