Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part II

shiv
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Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part II

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2005 08:35

[Rakesh's Note: The old thread has been moved to the Military Exercises Archive]

More and more, it appears to me that the world is moving away from the "static" paradigms of the cold war to a new strategy of coping with new threats in various regions as they arise.

In a sense there is a globalization and "multi-nationalization" of dealing with threats to trade and energy supply of many nations. The supply sources and routes of resources are limited in number - but the threats are no longer limited to an imperial power or a single superpower bloc.

What I believe we are seeing increasingly in these exercises is not US vs India or USAF vs IAF but an intention to understand each others' procedures and operations so that forces can act in concert to put out "fires", be they piracy, terrorism or a nation state getting out of hand and leading to a world war type of situation.

My email to Vishnu bounced.

Can someone get photos please??

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Postby Dileep » 19 Nov 2005 10:12

I am intrigued with statements like "we can hit the ground running". If that reflects the REAL unkly idea, it means a lot. I would think that the USAF mid level cmdr will not say that unless the objectives of the exc were not outlined clear on those lines.

That could mean many things, including unkil is trying to forge a spatula, buy a dog, or kill a snake.

Interesting times we live in!

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Postby Roop » 19 Nov 2005 13:49

George, you want something genuine to worry about, let me suggest thie following:

Recall (from Vishnu Som's post) that incident about the taxi driver wandering about the runway while an aircraft was taxiing, and ask yourself, how in hell does a taxi wander onto a military air base in the middle of flight operations, and worse yet, drive onto the runway while an aircraft is taxiing? Who is taking care of ground traffic control here? :shock:

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Postby Rakesh » 19 Nov 2005 20:59

'Surprises' for US pilots from Indian counterparts on MiG-21s

From the above article;

...others privately admitted the US pilots were often "amazed" by the performance of the Indians.


...but other officials from both sides privately said the Indians had often surprised the American pilots.


...but some Indian pilots admitted the performance of the ageing but refurbished MiG-21s had "dumbfounded" the Americans :twisted:

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Postby RanjanRoy » 19 Nov 2005 21:47

Mohan Raju wrote:George, you want something genuine to worry about, let me suggest thie following:

Recall (from Vishnu Som's post) that incident about the taxi driver wandering about the runway while an aircraft was taxiing, and ask yourself, how in hell does a taxi wander onto a military air base in the middle of flight operations, and worse yet, drive onto the runway while an aircraft is taxiing? Who is taking care of ground traffic control here? :shock:


I believe was authrorised civil taxi traffic to provide car to mil visitors (IAF USAF). But one on open airfield they become kids lost to rules and dangers.

Or maybe he thought 'runway taxi path' and the place where car taxi can do what they please :twisted: A rifle shot by onduty DSC or Varun gaurds would have been right way to send the serious message to all Qualis drivers in future. 8)

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Postby Vishnu » 19 Nov 2005 22:41

Actually I saw the entire thing ... It was a typical case of a taxi wallah who believed his Qualis was more important than the F-16. Fair enough I suppose! So, rather than stop and wait ... he stepped on it ... and passed no more than 15 feet in front of the F-16 ... promoting the F-16 pilot to hit his brakes. Few people really noticed ... and I doubt if the taxi driver knew that he was doing anything wrong !!

Vishnu

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Postby Dileep » 19 Nov 2005 22:44

For taxivala, the f-16 is just another vehicle I suppose.

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Postby Div » 20 Nov 2005 01:20

I agree with MR, you don't wanna end up with one of these.

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Postby JTull » 20 Nov 2005 03:05

Just wondering about the taxi incident... When ships move into an harbour, there are harbour masters who guide the boat to it's mooring. Civilian vehicles shouldn't be allowed to drive freely in an airbase. Could be a big security risk as well. Wonder what IAF would do if an MKI got damaged by reckless civilian driver.

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Postby SaiK » 20 Nov 2005 07:40

please note "civilian vehicle drivers" carry indian driving license and trained on driving on indian roads, and more importantly the way indians would drive.

perhaps he though f-16 or any aircraft would be like that handle an one inch difference between two vehicles when they come to signal lights.. the right-of-way concept has to seep in.

its behavior and driving habits that determine a safe mode operation be it qualis or f-16.

btw, lets not get carried away when americans say anything sugar-coated.. and we go :twisted: .. they actually has a last :twisted: for every :twisted: of ours.

american culture is always a "wow" culture, and then it turns yeah!.. done that. btw, you have a pretty good ambassador, though i drive a saab, it looks awesome.. similar performace after upgrading various parts. but, we failed to acknowledge in return is "your saab" was great! while we gloat about our ambassadors.

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Postby shiv » 20 Nov 2005 15:13

SaiK wrote:please note "civilian vehicle drivers" carry indian driving license and trained on driving on indian roads, and more importantly the way indians would drive.

perhaps he though f-16 or any aircraft would be like that handle an one inch difference between two vehicles when they come to signal lights.. the right-of-way concept has to seep in..


Indeed. I can imagine the indignant Qualis driver thinking "Vat phor this galata? I going 60 kmph. Plane coming 25 kmph far away. Vat problem occured? You first tell vat problem occured? Not even touch happened. Plane braked? Why phor it is having brakes? To brake only no? Plane is plane. Plane should fly. If plane want to go on road, then plane is car. I horn many times before crossing. Where the plane horned? I only horned. You stop telling nansense."

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Postby Cain Marko » 20 Nov 2005 18:47

This taxi business reminds me of an airshow I went to in Terre Haute, IN. They had some F14s come in and do some moves and simulate carrier landing ops. It was funny and dangerous I s'pose when a f14 pilot suddenly found a truck driver on the runway while he was about to do a quick landing and take off (something that happens when the arrestor cables don't catch I think). It was funny because the pilot probly forgot that he was hooked to the PA system and what came out of his mouth was really filthy and totally shocked my mother in law and other people :lol: - didn't want the kiddies listening to the ripe language i believe (heh heh little do these people know as to what comes out of little kiddies mouths any more!)

So I guess Indian taxi wallahs aren't the only road hogs around! Yup, a country boy in his chevy with a 6 pack and shotgun sometimes thinks pretty much the same way (esp. after having a few swigs of the good stuff.) :D

Regards,
CM.

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 20 Nov 2005 20:02

I am just wondering that we should not reveal too much in our enthusiasm to win the mock battles. The idea is to know about US tactics not win excercises.

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Postby shiv » 20 Nov 2005 20:13

Raj Malhotra wrote:I am just wondering that we should not reveal too much in our enthusiasm to win the mock battles. The idea is to know about US tactics not win excercises.


Raj I would tend to disagree with this assessment. These exercises are not so much like I play with your wife to find out what turns her on and you play with my wife likewise.

The world is moving on. Threat perceptions are different.

Terrorism, piracy, loose nukes, failing Pakistan, an uncertain Myanmar and NoKorea and a burgeoning China are all on the radar screen - leading to the need for cooperation of like minded nations.

The exercises are about interoperability and learning each other's routines and procedures. Of coure there is also "comeptition" - but highlighting the competition and victories and imagining that it is red vs blue is a gross mistake. Too many people are making that mistake.

The exercises are not being conducted to make the IAF feel it is going tdefeat the USAF or vice versa.

I am reading a book for an SRR review right now. I will try and do a good job of the review - to make people understand how nations are thinking.

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Postby NRao » 20 Nov 2005 20:14

Raj Malhotra wrote:I am just wondering that we should not reveal too much in our enthusiasm to win the mock battles. The idea is to know about US tactics not win excercises.


Winning within the learning process?

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Postby Victor » 21 Nov 2005 00:10

Div, thanks for that pic of the Eagle sitting on a police car. The Falcon guy should have done the same thing to the taxi, perferably with the idiot who allowed this to happen inside it.

It is entirely possible that this security-cleared Qualis contained DDM trying to get a "scoop" shot or something. I can't imagne it doing what it did while containing either USAF or IAF personnel who would never have allowed this to happen. Trust whoever it was has been demoted to chaprasi, 3rd class.

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Postby Ved » 21 Nov 2005 07:13

shiv wrote:......The exercises are about interoperability and learning each other's routines and procedures. Of coure there is also "comeptition" -..... .


The Yanks seemed to have been trying really hard to do well, and however carefully the ex settings may have been devised to avoid ego trips, there were cases by the US of deviations driven by the compulsion to excel. At times there was deliberate 'cheating', which was countered effectively in the air and debriefed firmly on the ground. Such instances only served to push the IAF image further on top!

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Postby Philip » 21 Nov 2005 11:21

At last we have the answer to the shortage of pilots in the IAF.Send in the ubiquitous Indian "taxi-driver"!We all know that our taxi drivers are the kings of the road.Imagine if their 'ground" skills are used in the air.Our friend has also proved that the Indian taxidriver is vastly superior to a US F-16 pilot!

back to the MIG-21 Bison.Members might remember that a few years ago,when the replacment for the MIG-21 was being avidly debated on BRF,I said that the best replacement for the MIG-21 was the MIG-21 (upgraded)itself.Wisely the IAF has done so and from reports in the media about Pranab's Russian visit,the option of upgrading even more MIG-21s was discussed.This aircraft is the real "LCA" that we have right now.In fact,we should use the Bison's radar on the LCA (as the new radar apparently hasn't yet been developed,which will also help spped up weapons trials and intergation) as an interim solution and speedily induct the Tejas as soon as possible.Until that time,our Bisons have proved that they can acquit themselves with the very best.

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Postby rajpa » 21 Nov 2005 13:27

it is interesting that the us mil folks should say that they are preparing for joint operations with indian forces... through this exercise...

afaik there is no political or military evidence to this statement...

(except for two distinctly different operations as far as the tsunami is concerned..)

another topgun jumping the gun?! :)

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Postby Manne » 21 Nov 2005 15:59

Bison seems to have become an enigma of sorts. Warms the cockles of me heart at the thought of dem paklurks reading about it.

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Postby abhisheks » 22 Nov 2005 03:01

What is that small white aircraft in the pictures doing there? Is it a Gulfstream Mini brought in by Unkil's men for Vayu Vihar?

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Postby Naidu » 22 Nov 2005 04:02

abhisheks wrote:What is that small white aircraft in the pictures doing there? Is it a Gulfstream Mini brought in by Unkil's men for Vayu Vihar?


My guess is that its from the US Embassy in N. Delhi.

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Postby SaiK » 22 Nov 2005 05:11

http://www.af.mil/mediacenter/transcrip ... =123013031

Leaders say Cope India 'great success'

The exercise marked the first time F-16 Fighting Falcons have flown against Indian fighters -- including their newest Su-30MKI variant -- in dissimilar air combat training. E-Sentry airborne warning and control system aircraft also participated.

n one scenario, Indian Su-30’s escorted AWACS -- and clashed with F-16 attackers.

“That’s 180 degrees from what I’ve always trained to do and thought about,” AWACS detachment commander Lt. Col. Pete Bastien said. “We think of the Su-30 as our adversary.




KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India (AFPN) -- Civilians flock to the flightline to see displays of U.S. and Indian Air Force aircraft. About 250 U.S. Airmen from five bases are participating in the Cope India exercise. The exercise provides an opportunity for the two air forces to enhance their ability to operate together. (U.S. Air Force photo by Capt. John Redfield)

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/ ... 0S-002.jpg

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/ ... 0S-003.jpg

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Postby karan » 22 Nov 2005 06:29

Shivji ki Jai Ho...Excellent insight of a Qualis Driver. As far as this excercise and statements are concerned, let me say it this way, US does not involve other nations unless there is a long term strategy behind it. I agree with some member assessment, Pakis are failing, Myanmar will become a thorn in flesh. US Military Strategists have learned from WWII when they had hell of a time to develop synergy between USAAF and RAF. We are part of a very dangeours real estate, only reason Ummah, Pakis, Iranis, Arbi Ghode have not struck yet is they don't have the military might, technical capability, counterweight of USA on their side. If China does become as capable as USA is today and throws her weight behind ME, does anyone think this Ummah will sit quietly? US startegist know all this and they are planning about future. India the 2nd most populus nation, with military force that is battle hardened and knows how to fight. No Amount of technology can substitute the numerical strength of Grunts, Only India can provide that kinda numbers, US will provide techonology. Heck it sounds like a great arrangement to me. If we could just take care of loser leadership of this Nation.

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Postby shiv » 22 Nov 2005 09:17


Mort Walker
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Postby Mort Walker » 22 Nov 2005 10:21

Shiv,

Can we get a brief description of the date, time, camera, lens, focal length, shutter speed, aperture, and ISO speed of each photo? The data containing that info should be in the file. It would be nice to know. Perhaps Vishnu Som could summaraize it for us. Please. Pretty please.

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Postby Singha » 22 Nov 2005 11:16

Mort you can use Xnview yourself and view the exif data.

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Postby shiv » 22 Nov 2005 11:18

Mort Walker wrote:Shiv,

Can we get a brief description of the date, time, camera, lens, focal length, shutter speed, aperture, and ISO speed of each photo? The data containing that info should be in the file. It would be nice to know. Perhaps Vishnu Som could summaraize it for us. Please. Pretty please.


Sorry - I can't help here

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Postby Shalav » 22 Nov 2005 11:58

EXIF was erased when the pictures were watermarked.

From one of the unedited originals posted this earlier

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/cope/Picture_001.jpg

ImageDescription -
Make - NIKON
Model - E4100
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 300
YResolution - 300
ResolutionUnit - Inch
Software - E4100v1.0
DateTime - 2005:11:16 22:37:19
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
ExifOffset - 284
ExposureTime - 1/330 seconds
FNumber - 4.90
ExposureProgram - Normal program
ISOSpeedRatings - 50
ExifVersion - 0220
DateTimeOriginal - 2005:11:16 22:37:19
DateTimeDigitized - 2005:11:16 22:37:19
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel - 3 (bits/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
MaxApertureValue - F 2.83
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
LightSource - Auto
Flash - Not fired, auto mode
FocalLength - 17.40 mm
UserComment -
FlashPixVersion - 0100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 2288
ExifImageHeight - 1712
InteroperabilityOffset - 1026
FileSource - DSC - Digital still camera
SceneType - A directly photographed image
CustomRendered - Normal process
ExposureMode - Auto
WhiteBalance - Auto
DigitalZoomRatio - 0.00 x
FocalLengthIn35mmFilm - 105 mm
SceneCaptureType - Standard
GainControl - None
Contrast - Normal
Saturation - Normal
Sharpness - Normal
SubjectDistanceRange - Unknown

Maker Note (Vendor): -
Data version - 2 (512)
ISO Setting - 0
Color Mode - COLOR
Image Quality - FINE
White Balance - AUTO
Image Sharpening - AUTO
Focus Mode - AF-C
Flash Setting - NORMAL
Unknown - 5.64
ISO Selection - AUTO
Image Adjustment - NORMAL
Auxiliary Lens - OFF
Manual Focus Distance - 0.00/0.00
Digital Zoom - 1.00 x
AF Focus Position - Center
Scene Mode -
Saturation Adjustment -
Noise Reduction - OFF

Time looks like the picture was taken mid/late-morning though the cameras time shows the image was taken at 10:30 PM!

NICE PICS !!

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Postby abhisheks » 22 Nov 2005 12:30

Nice pics....but the water marks are a little bit overbearing... :P

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Postby Arun_S » 22 Nov 2005 12:33

Shiv: Is it possible to use a watermark scheme (like inverse image) so that watermark is less obstrusive but prominent enough to be not easy to erase? I can help.

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Postby shiv » 22 Nov 2005 14:15

Folks when I posted the pics unedited I have people telling me that they should be watermarked.

When I edit them some people want the unedited info and others don't like the watermark.

I have an idea.

I am going to do nothing more.

Those pictures are now to be seen in an as is where is condition. Farce magazine and Prasun Sengupta steal pictures that have watermarks on one edge by cropping them.

Arun - sorry but I am not going to download all the pictures you sent again and upload them again.

..but it's
alright now
I learned my lesson well
you can't please everyone, so you
gotta please yourself

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Postby JTull » 22 Nov 2005 14:42

Shiv, we appreciate your work. The watermarks are fine for me. No need to be offended. It is not about pleasing everyone but about pleasing the majority.

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Postby vonkabra » 22 Nov 2005 16:48

Please ignore this if its been discused before, but why are the F-16s carrying Sidewinders & Amraams while the MiGs, Mirages & Sukhois only have drop tanks?

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Postby Mort Walker » 22 Nov 2005 19:16

Shiv,

I'm sorry, but I forgot to say THANK YOU AND VISHNU SOM VERY MUCH! Your work is of great service. BTW, the watermarks are ok by me.

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Postby A Sharma » 22 Nov 2005 20:22

Thx Vishnu and Shiv.
Vishnu said about a pic of all DDM in An-32. Did I miss it or its not there?

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Postby abhisheks » 22 Nov 2005 21:02

..but it's
alright now
I learned my lesson well
you can't please everyone, so you
gotta please yourself



Sorry, if what I said offended you. Most of us are very appreciative of what a lot you do to keep this exclusive and high quality forum/think tank going. We know it's really, really not easy.

But, sometimes users/long time lurkers like me who are very eager, proud and pleased to see pictures like this can be a little bit demanding for all the very same reasons.

Bottom-line is that, it was just an impromptu comment accompanying the appreciation. :)

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Postby Harry » 22 Nov 2005 21:06

Great pics. Thanks Vishnu.

Jagan, note the low viz Gnat.

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Postby shiv » 22 Nov 2005 21:20

A Sharma wrote:Thx Vishnu and Shiv.
Vishnu said about a pic of all DDM in An-32. Did I miss it or its not there?


Ahhh! So that is what the mystery pic is.

I will get it and put it up in due course. There were only 4-5 more pix - of which two seem interesting. I did not bother even downloading a couple - including the nameless faces in an An 32.

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Postby shiv » 22 Nov 2005 21:25

abhisheks wrote:
..but it's
alright now
I learned my lesson well
you can't please everyone, so you
gotta please yourself


Hey it's OK Abhishek - I was more pissed off with the stupid Yahoo account that took me all day and 3 "error - please try reload"s per download to get 27 pictures of 1MB plus each. The whole damn day went in that. The verse is from a song by Rick Nelson - that I am guessing that only people over 45 may remember hearing.

I need to get the MP3 from somewhere.


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