Vishnu and Shiv, thanks for the pics.
Shiv, Now do you know why the "Two men and the Donkey" is an Indian story? Honest, most folk tales have parallel tales in other cultures while the above mentioned is unique Indian onlee.
Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part II
Hey thanks for the great pictures Vishnu and Shiv.
The US Govt King Air must be from the Kolkata consulate (wonder if its still on Ho Chi Minh Sarani?
). Wonder where else they go in this short range, rough airstrip capable plane? For the major metros, they would use regular airlines or a jet I think.
Shiv: for the song, ask google and ye shall recieve: nelson+garden+party+mp3
The US Govt King Air must be from the Kolkata consulate (wonder if its still on Ho Chi Minh Sarani?
). Wonder where else they go in this short range, rough airstrip capable plane? For the major metros, they would use regular airlines or a jet I think.Shiv: for the song, ask google and ye shall recieve: nelson+garden+party+mp3
Don't you know? We are a peace loving nation; our air force is like that only!vonkabra wrote:Please ignore this if its been discused before, but why are the F-16s carrying Sidewinders & Amraams while the MiGs, Mirages & Sukhois only have drop tanks?
My guess is that they pulled the missiles off before bringing them into the static display area. Home field advantage. Presumably, the visitors do not have anywhere to store the missiles if they pulled them off the aircraft. I'm sure the IAF birds did not fly in "clean" configs in the air during the exercise. All this 'I'll show mine, if you show your's' wouldn't work otherwise.
Thanks, Shiv and Vishnu, for the pics!
(Nice product placement ad for Tata Motors in pic #8. Our 1210s vs your F16s and MiGs!)
I think F-16's always fly with wingtip AIM-9's or inert sidewinder lookalikes for ballast/aerodynamic reasons to provide stability. I beleve the Tejas carries a pair of R-60's for the same reason.
Here is an F-16C at the Comox Air Show in canada from earlier this year:
This aircraft did a full aerobatics display with those 'missiles' attached and I can't see why the USAF would want to deplete the useful life of real missiles by subjecting them to all those G's and other stresses.
Here is an F-16C at the Comox Air Show in canada from earlier this year:
This aircraft did a full aerobatics display with those 'missiles' attached and I can't see why the USAF would want to deplete the useful life of real missiles by subjecting them to all those G's and other stresses.
Nice Pix Vishnu (BR's most cherished DDM 
). Thanks a lot.
Nice work by Shiv too.
And to cool you down, here is a gift (just for you)
Garden Party - Ricky Nelson
). Thanks a lot.Nice work by Shiv too.
And to cool you down, here is a gift (just for you)
Garden Party - Ricky Nelson
Thanks for spending a lot of time on this to make it available for all of us.shiv wrote:Folks when I posted the pics unedited I have people telling me that they should be watermarked.
When I edit them some people want the unedited info and others don't like the watermark.
I have an idea.
I am going to do nothing more.
Those pictures are now to be seen in an as is where is condition. Farce magazine and Prasun Sengupta steal pictures that have watermarks on one edge by cropping them.
Arun - sorry but I am not going to download all the pictures you sent again and upload them again.
..but it's
alright now
I learned my lesson well
you can't please everyone, so you
gotta please yourself
In the future, maybe we shouldn't be so paranoid about Force and its like ... we shouldn't have to be the ones making absolute compromises.
Question for members:
Any ideas on how in the future we could make the watermarks less obtrusive but at the same time make it difficult for others to steal?
It is possible that steganography can be used.srai wrote: Question for members:
Any ideas on how in the future we could make the watermarks less obtrusive but at the same time make it difficult for others to steal?
I need to educate myself about this because even if we post a pristine image that can later be PROVEN to have been stolen by say Prasun Sengupta because of coded steganographic information - it hardly makes a difference.
I mean the image has been stolen and the onus is on us to prove it. Prasun Sengupta and Force Magazine for example have NO problem about lifting entire articles word for word without permssion or credit.
We need to have a foolproof legal system that takes people to task the minute this happens. In the absence of that we either post unmarked images and let them be stolen or mark them obscenely. I see hidden steganographic coding as a sort of post facto "hymen examination" for proof of virginity. It does not discourage wide usage - it only attempts to prove it after it has occured. On the internet that is no use. I am sure that is why Corbis are so vulgar and blatant in their watermarking.
Off topic - but has anyone on BRF read it or reviewed this book?Manu wrote:Link 1shiv wrote:Who the hell is George Tanaham?
Link 2
He has been cited on BR here and here
Lastly, Indian Strategic Thought: An Interpretive EssayDomestic and budgetary constraints will continue to limit Indian military power for many years.
Acharya, that RAND "study" was not worth the paper it was written on- as regards the IAF. The rest was Ok in some parts. A very disappointing study of the IAF which basically said that the IAF was a soviet equipped and ergo trained force. Believe you me, the same kind of report would have been published today by RAND citing Brian Cloughley, Pravin Sawheny, SM Hali and other "authoritative" sources thanks to the fact that the IAF itself has never been PR adept or even open about its own capability and consequently the Paki propoganda (re 65 for eg) had been bought easily, but the key difference today is that the USAF and by default the rest of the world got a wake up call via Cope India. Even the most India friendly people were shocked to learn in times past, that IAF MiG21 pilots pulled 300 sorties and more annually and many pilots crossed the 180 hrs/ annum NATO std average.Acharya wrote:Just 12 years ago George Tanaham said that IAF does not have a strategy for fighting war.
What has changed now.
People have underestimated the Indian services for low. In their view, flying "obscolescent" MiGs meant that the IAF was sub-par.
anyone noticed, the Oracle forum has disappeared off the face of the earth ?
there goes one common South Asia forum where peaceluvin people from both sides could share their thoughts, indulge in p2p debate and build bridges of friendship and southasianhood
Where should the Golden Horde invade next ? we await orders Sire and our black steppe horses grow restless even as our 14 foot javelins catch the morning sunlight.
there goes one common South Asia forum where peaceluvin people from both sides could share their thoughts, indulge in p2p debate and build bridges of friendship and southasianhood
Where should the Golden Horde invade next ? we await orders Sire and our black steppe horses grow restless even as our 14 foot javelins catch the morning sunlight.
JCage - the statement "The IAF does not have a strategy for fighting a war" is a suspect statement and I would really like to make sure that these were the exact words used by the author.
If they were - I can blast the sentence into orbit.
In India the IAF does not fight wars on its own. and cannot have a separate compartment of a warfighting strategy in isolation from the other armed forces and national requirements.
Secondly - a "warfighting" doctrine is a doctrine where you know exactly what sort of war you are going to fight and where you are going to fight the war.
In today's scenario (for India)of Pakistan, China, Bdesh, Myanmar, terror, piracy, keeping sea lanes open, peacekeeping etc - a "warfighting strategy" has to involve preparation for every single on of these. It is about speed, mobility and flexibility. In fact the biggest change in warfighting scenarios in the last 15 years is exactly this, and sticking to a single "warfighting doctrine" is wrong.
Besides - what sort of warfighting doctrine is expected from the IAF other than flexibility if a nation like Pakistan can have 150 fighters added to its air force withing a few months as happened in the 1960s?
If they were - I can blast the sentence into orbit.
In India the IAF does not fight wars on its own. and cannot have a separate compartment of a warfighting strategy in isolation from the other armed forces and national requirements.
Secondly - a "warfighting" doctrine is a doctrine where you know exactly what sort of war you are going to fight and where you are going to fight the war.
In today's scenario (for India)of Pakistan, China, Bdesh, Myanmar, terror, piracy, keeping sea lanes open, peacekeeping etc - a "warfighting strategy" has to involve preparation for every single on of these. It is about speed, mobility and flexibility. In fact the biggest change in warfighting scenarios in the last 15 years is exactly this, and sticking to a single "warfighting doctrine" is wrong.
Besides - what sort of warfighting doctrine is expected from the IAF other than flexibility if a nation like Pakistan can have 150 fighters added to its air force withing a few months as happened in the 1960s?
When war making is divorced from diplomacy & national determination, then IAF war fighting strategy is as confused as the national determination.
War has be first won in our minds before picking up arms. Ask what in the mind of top echelons of Indian citizenry? Surely from 1973 to mid 90's IAF/IA/IN strategy was mostly tactical devoid of strategic thinking, planning and action. A mirror of national political character roaming in wilderness.
JMT.
War has be first won in our minds before picking up arms. Ask what in the mind of top echelons of Indian citizenry? Surely from 1973 to mid 90's IAF/IA/IN strategy was mostly tactical devoid of strategic thinking, planning and action. A mirror of national political character roaming in wilderness.
JMT.
Last edited by Arun_S on 23 Nov 2005 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
Induction of IL-78, Phalcon, upgradation of Bisons to fire R-77, induction of an "Air Dominance Fighter" in numbers, obscene / inhuman training requirements, one of the largest orders of 4th Gen fighters in recent history, emphasis on data-linking, and etc.
That doesnt just sound like an airforce with a strategy, that sounds like an airforce that is working its butt off preparing for a war in which it knows exactly what its going to do.
Like someone somewhere said, "this is an airforce thats going to dish out a lot of pain to whoever tangles with it"
We may have lacked a strategic culture in the past, we may still accuse some parts of the government machinery of this sin. BUT definitely not this airforce. This is no longer a reactive airforce happy with status quo, this really looks like an airforce which is pushing itself hard to get to the top. If someone chooses to believe that this effort is without a guiding strategy then for his sake I wish he isnt in the Paki or Chinese AF.
That doesnt just sound like an airforce with a strategy, that sounds like an airforce that is working its butt off preparing for a war in which it knows exactly what its going to do.
Like someone somewhere said, "this is an airforce thats going to dish out a lot of pain to whoever tangles with it"
We may have lacked a strategic culture in the past, we may still accuse some parts of the government machinery of this sin. BUT definitely not this airforce. This is no longer a reactive airforce happy with status quo, this really looks like an airforce which is pushing itself hard to get to the top. If someone chooses to believe that this effort is without a guiding strategy then for his sake I wish he isnt in the Paki or Chinese AF.
Hi there Shiv ... Thanks for the water mark ... I don't know your time constraints but if you can ... you are welcome to take off my name and just leave the BR bit on ... that way, the pics are nicer to see ...
I have also sent all the pics to Jagan.
Also ... the unnamed guys in the An-32 WERE ALL the DDMs in the country ... a ready reckoner for BR ... There was also one of your favourite DDM ... next to the undercarriage of an AN-32 !!!!
Vishnu
I have also sent all the pics to Jagan.
Also ... the unnamed guys in the An-32 WERE ALL the DDMs in the country ... a ready reckoner for BR ... There was also one of your favourite DDM ... next to the undercarriage of an AN-32 !!!!
Vishnu
Shivji, my brain is not working right now, somewhat befuddled, but the rand study was really bad ..it basically said that the IAF had horrible maintenance issues but didnt mention tje corrective issues underway at that time itself, obsolete a/c (and the paf and plaaf were very sophisticated sure), obsolete eqpt etc (when sipri reveals we bought bvr eqpt galore) and ended with that dialogue above....many iaf ppl took issue with it in vayu etc..but typical of the iaf..it never bothered to rebut the issue...problem was/is all these authors, use same sources- janes, cloughley writing in some us journal etc and take them at their word..result is that iaf comes out looking like a hick AF,which nobody, even Iaf doesnt rebut...many of the statements in that rand study were ludicrous..they didnt even bother asking iaf ppl at the time..as was obvious..as to what iaf training stds were...or how iaf handled the mig 29 issue...rupaks article in brm in contrast is a keeper...so it all boils down to the intensity of effort..basically cherrypicking quotes about an af, when the entire economy is down in the dumps is no use..but common analysis...shiv wrote:JCage - the statement "The IAF does not have a strategy for fighting a war" is a suspect statement and I would really like to make sure that these were the exact words used by the author.
If they were - I can blast the sentence into orbit.
In India the IAF does not fight wars on its own. and cannot have a separate compartment of a warfighting strategy in isolation from the other armed forces and national requirements.
Secondly - a "warfighting" doctrine is a doctrine where you know exactly what sort of war you are going to fight and where you are going to fight the war.
In today's scenario (for India)of Pakistan, China, Bdesh, Myanmar, terror, piracy, keeping sea lanes open, peacekeeping etc - a "warfighting strategy" has to involve preparation for every single on of these. It is about speed, mobility and flexibility. In fact the biggest change in warfighting scenarios in the last 15 years is exactly this, and sticking to a single "warfighting doctrine" is wrong.
Besides - what sort of warfighting doctrine is expected from the IAF other than flexibility if a nation like Pakistan can have 150 fighters added to its air force withing a few months as happened in the 1960s?
-
Rajit Ojha
- BRFite -Trainee
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 31 Jul 2004 13:23
Water-Mark?
Well, cant wait to see that particular photograph being uploaded...with target roundels as a watermark naturally...(or should that be a HUD pipper?)Also ... the unnamed guys in the An-32 WERE ALL the DDMs in the country ... a ready reckoner for BR ...
If one can contribute to the Tanaham post please do so no need to whine or lament.
George Tanaham was the preeminent RAND scholar on India and his study set the tone of relations in the 90s. So it is of relevance now as to how the image of the IAF has changed after the Cope series of exercises. Acharya is bring attention to that only.
Ashley Tellis is the India expert now.
George Tanaham was the preeminent RAND scholar on India and his study set the tone of relations in the 90s. So it is of relevance now as to how the image of the IAF has changed after the Cope series of exercises. Acharya is bring attention to that only.
Ashley Tellis is the India expert now.
Well, the IAF is:
a) an airforce that never lost a war
b) a warfighting team that during Kargil made TSPAF think that safety is better than valour
I don't have a source but I remember reading that in '71 TSPAF had been negotiating with Iran to store their a/c away from the bombs of the IAF and I do remember the TSPAF chief's comment to the PN that it (PN) must learn to fight its own wars.
I am confident in the ability and committment of the IAF & its pilots. And b$ll$ to Jane's/Mr. Tanaham!!
a) an airforce that never lost a war
b) a warfighting team that during Kargil made TSPAF think that safety is better than valour
I don't have a source but I remember reading that in '71 TSPAF had been negotiating with Iran to store their a/c away from the bombs of the IAF and I do remember the TSPAF chief's comment to the PN that it (PN) must learn to fight its own wars.
I am confident in the ability and committment of the IAF & its pilots. And b$ll$ to Jane's/Mr. Tanaham!!
File system corruption. Unless you are logged in, ModMil forum will not be visible. Is being fixed if not fixed already.Rich wrote:Singha wrote:anyone noticed, the Oracle forum has disappeared off the face of the earth ?Oh, is that what happened? And all this time I thought I got banished because of something I posted.
George Tanham's and Macy Agmon's book on the IAF is one of the worst pieces of garbage I have ever read. Their general conclusion is that the IAF will run out spares and crash. There is a dirty comment on the back of the book which I will not even spell out. No new information in it, besides some statistical charts on aircraft inventory, origin etc
Vishnu: Here are some watermark sample for your consideration. (There is an inverse watermark in the center and another one in blue color on bottom right). (Any suggested change I can do quickly and ask Admins to load on BR server instead of photobucket)Vishnu wrote:Hi there Shiv ... Thanks for the water mark ... I don't know your time constraints but if you can ... you are welcome to take off my name and just leave the BR bit on ... that way, the pics are nicer to see ...
I have also sent all the pics to Jagan.
Also ... the unnamed guys in the An-32 WERE ALL the DDMs in the country ... a ready reckoner for BR ... There was also one of your favourite DDM ... next to the undercarriage of an AN-32 !!!!
Vishnu
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/ ... ure011.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/ ... ure010.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/ ... ure022.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/ ... ure031.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/ ... ure030.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/ ... ure015.jpg
Last edited by Arun_S on 23 Nov 2005 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
since quoting 'bideshi experts' is the flavour of the season, let me quote ELP verbatim from f-16.net cope india thread.
start
India might use some Russian tactics. But the majority of it is modern western tactics and home grown training/experience, with a small dash of their RAF culture/roots. They aren't dumb by a long shot. Using the old RuTech GCI-non thinking is a sure way to get killed. Iraq abandoned that method for the most part to go modern, and so did Egypt even before we exercised with them. After the War of Attrition failure by Sov advisor's ( pre 73 War, the Egyptians sent them home with an emperor has no cloths attitude. Egypt would start their own path to modern A2A tactics from what really worked. So nothing new there. India used/uses a lot of RuTech.... but not much of Ru tactics for A2A. History has already shown it. As for "catching up". India has not "caught up". They have been high end BFM gold standard A2A tactics A2A planning, skilled for many many YEARS now. The only thing "new", is it is just recently that we have had a chance to exercise with them. Nothing else.
end
p.s. BFM = basic fighter manouvers.
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/acmintro.htm
see chapter six above for a good description of a 4-vs-2 BVR combat.
start
India might use some Russian tactics. But the majority of it is modern western tactics and home grown training/experience, with a small dash of their RAF culture/roots. They aren't dumb by a long shot. Using the old RuTech GCI-non thinking is a sure way to get killed. Iraq abandoned that method for the most part to go modern, and so did Egypt even before we exercised with them. After the War of Attrition failure by Sov advisor's ( pre 73 War, the Egyptians sent them home with an emperor has no cloths attitude. Egypt would start their own path to modern A2A tactics from what really worked. So nothing new there. India used/uses a lot of RuTech.... but not much of Ru tactics for A2A. History has already shown it. As for "catching up". India has not "caught up". They have been high end BFM gold standard A2A tactics A2A planning, skilled for many many YEARS now. The only thing "new", is it is just recently that we have had a chance to exercise with them. Nothing else.
end
p.s. BFM = basic fighter manouvers.
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/acmintro.htm
see chapter six above for a good description of a 4-vs-2 BVR combat.
Last edited by Singha on 23 Nov 2005 22:43, edited 1 time in total.
The Modern Military Aviation Forum at Key Publishing (Air Force Monthly).vishnua wrote:what is oracle forum??.Rich wrote:
"Oracle" is a name given to a Paki know-it-all on that forum by one of the erstwhile BR members. This paki is famous for spouting outlandish garbage in an attempt to glorify Paki H&D. He goes by the handle of "star49". This character defines the term: "Once a paki, always a moron".
-
George J
Tch Tch Tch...its not Oracle Forum its Oracle's Forum. AFM is so named coz its the home of the "Oracle of Twu BVR". Twu BVR=only true form of BVR when the bandit does not know its been tracked (like in LPI). So any other form of BVR is not Twu (True) BVR so Indian's dont have Twu BVR. Its fake/useless coz the bogie know its been tracked and the badit knows when it has a missile on its tail. Oh and you CANNOT fire a BVR missile across the international boundry with a VISA.
Oracle's forum is also one of the greatest centers for learning: Madrassa Mathematics, Faislabad Fysics, Karachi Kemistry and Lahori Logic (see above). They have recently introduce an new and exciting course: Shanghai Statistics.
Oracle's forum is also one of the greatest centers for learning: Madrassa Mathematics, Faislabad Fysics, Karachi Kemistry and Lahori Logic (see above). They have recently introduce an new and exciting course: Shanghai Statistics.
China has less # aero engg. than India...but it has greater # engg. per capita
-
George J
JEM:
Its the truth....we are not making this up...it (Oracle) really says all this and still gets away with it. Peking/Pyongyang/Peshawar - Psychology does not rhyme, you need a city with S sound. Might I suggest Sarghoda Sychology. I think its a core course for all Pakis thats why they are so hung up on H&D.
Its the truth....we are not making this up...it (Oracle) really says all this and still gets away with it. Peking/Pyongyang/Peshawar - Psychology does not rhyme, you need a city with S sound. Might I suggest Sarghoda Sychology. I think its a core course for all Pakis thats why they are so hung up on H&D.
Jagan/Vishnu.. could you please tell if these Gnats are still there.. a recent image would be great..
Did you see any hunters lying in the corners ...
http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/wbkkd.html
Howz the terrain near Kalaikunda AFB..
http://www.fallingrain.com/apts/3200.html
Did you see any hunters lying in the corners ...
http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/wbkkd.html
Howz the terrain near Kalaikunda AFB..
http://www.fallingrain.com/apts/3200.html