Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part II

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Postby Singha » 26 Nov 2005 19:14

the matter is settled. Moose turned out to be a ok guy and a couple of people from here gently corrected him.

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Postby Samir » 26 Nov 2005 19:15

You know what is really advanced about the USAF? Their pilots can go on a BB, right after they have completed an exercise, and talk about it, and post photos.

Wow, if one of our pilots tried that, the IAF would expel his kid from Air Force School, make his wife dance at the AFWWA dinner, and add 5000 to his serial number.

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Postby khan » 27 Nov 2005 00:21

Samir wrote:You know what is really advanced about the USAF? Their pilots can go on a BB, right after they have completed an exercise, and talk about it, and post photos.

Wow, if one of our pilots tried that, the IAF would expel his kid from Air Force School, make his wife dance at the AFWWA dinner, and add 5000 to his serial number.
Actually the USAF has very little to loose, their capabilities are well known - they don't have many weaknesses. If any weakness/deficiency does show its self they have the funding and politicial backing to fix it. OOTH the IAF has to be more careful about what it exposes.

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Postby Rajit Ojha » 27 Nov 2005 00:27

You know what is really advanced about the USAF? Their pilots can go on a BB, right after they have completed an exercise, and talk about it, and post photos.

Wow, if one of our pilots tried that, the IAF would expel his kid from Air Force School, make his wife dance at the AFWWA dinner, and add 5000 to his serial number.


...So, so true.

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Postby Mohan Raju » 27 Nov 2005 03:15

Samir, what you said about the differences beweeen India and the US is true, but what Khan said is also true, and IMO more important, as it explains the caution (some would say paranoia) with which India operates.

To illustrate this point better, take the example of what I will call "photo security" (it's my term, not something standard). For decades, it has been illegal in India to take photographs at airports and certain other places considered to be of interest to terrorist and other enemies. Why? Because of the fear that these photographs could be used by enemies (Pakis and other terrorists) to plan attacks on Indian territory.

Well, of course most people, including Indians, assumed this was just another example of GoI paranoia and stupidity. I myself used to think that very thing. Why, these people asked, can't India be more open and free in these matters. Look at the US, for instance -- who ever heard of someone being prevented, by law, from using a camera at a US airport? Well, post-9/11 that question has been answered -- the US now (i.e. after 9/11) is in "full national secutrity paranoia" mode. You can now definitely run afoul of the law for taking simple tourist-type pictures/movies just about anywhere. And if you don't like it or act sassy to the cop who accosts you, you can be thrown in jail and, if it comes to that, be held without bail, without access to a lawyer and without formal charge, for as long as the state wants to do that. The USA PATRIOT Act makes it so, and polls indicate that most Americans think that is just fine and dandy.

This is what the US is after a single significant terrorist episode. This is the vaunted Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. I put it to you that if, God forbid, another significant terrorst attack occured on US soil, Americans would be happy to ditch their Bill of Rights and call down martial law on their own heads. Compare that with Indian democracy. After decades of terrorist attacks and wars initiated by real enemies, India still does not throw its citizens in jail and hold them without charge indefinitely -- the legislature, the courts and most importantly the people would never tolerate that. And, I put it to you, India's security services are generally pretty damned good at keeping an eye on bad guys without turning the country into one vast prison camp. After all that India has suffered over the decades, we still do not have a GITMO, nor a desire to have one.

If GOTUS or the USAF thought there was a significant down side to letting their officers post on internet forums, they would slap a gag order on their people so fast it would make their heads spin. GoI and the IAF are not (or do not perceive themselves to be) in the position of invincible strength and lack of meaningful challengers that the USAF is in, hence they take what they consider to be reasonable precautions. Personally, I wish the IAF (and the IA and the IN) would be more assertive and self-promoting in their PR, but they aren't. Never mind posting on the inernet, we need some more (lots more) Akashyodha-type or Discovery_CHannel-type hype and promotion, but we don't get it. WHat to do, Indians are like that onlee. :( :(

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Postby Ved » 27 Nov 2005 10:15

Mohan Raju wrote:..... And, I put it to you, India's security services are generally pretty damned good at keeping an eye on bad guys without turning the country into one vast prison camp. After all that India has suffered over the decades, we still do not have a GITMO, nor a desire to have one.......(


Hear, hear!!!

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Postby SaiK » 27 Nov 2005 10:35

just came back from an imax film.. it was titled "fighter pilots", its training exercise at neveda base. very fantastically picture, and when it comes to an imax near you, just dont miss it. why? because its just the sort of exercise you might want to see, hoping IAF going AWACs from this exercise onwards.

in the film, the f16s were the bad guys, and eagles + hornets were the good guys, along with E3 sentries, they show dog fights, carpet bombimg, plus plus.. the most important is they gave good command and control graphics from e3s, that shows graphically all aircrats in combat.. including the appearing enemy ones. it gives the flight path, based of groups [coloring] of the squadrons,.. the sentry has many on board personnels actively monitoring the exercise/combat, throwing graphics even for those targets get killed/dead. the film atleast shows about 6 to 8 AWACs control terminals being handled.. no doubt, all that jazz added by hollywood type presentation. pretty impressive and given imax quality look/peer into the awacs insides.

the commander has total information to control and say to either call off mission or return success. pretty impressive platform, looking from operational point of view.

besides, they also show some good rescue ops. dont miss it.., if you have not seen it. i saw it at hutchinson cosmosphere.

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Postby Jagan » 27 Nov 2005 10:45

Mohan Raju wrote:To illustrate this point better, take the example of what I will call "photo security" (it's my term, not something standard). For decades, it has been illegal in India to take photographs at airports and certain other places considered to be of interest to terrorist and other enemies. Why? Because of the fear that these photographs could be used by enemies (Pakis and other terrorists) to plan attacks on Indian territory.


Mohan,

While not disagreeing to the bit about the paranoia in the US, The Indian Government does allow photography at airports for some time now (provided you are a bonafide passenger - not a spotter) . Now when the threat of terrorism is as high as ever.

That can be taken as an example on how some rules which had a long history are now seen as unnecessary. So perhaps we will have one day some guidelines that allow serving junior officers to participate in internet communities.

wishful thinking on my part!

Jagan

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Postby Victor » 27 Nov 2005 12:50

Good post, Mohan.

Exactly because of the Patriot Act, I would lean towards the two F-16 guys being coached by GOTUS to release the desired line for the general audience in such fora. One can never tell who's listening. In this case, that line happend to be good-to-OK stuff about us Injuns from the horse's mouth which complements the line at the official USAF websites. What leads me to this view is the fact that these two are joined-yesterday newbies at F-16.net suddenly saying "ask and I shall tell all". As F-16 Jocks, didn't they have anything to share with the F-16 Jock wannabes on that forum before Cope India? And the "minimum rank colonel" bit was jarring. They COULD be that uninformed but I doubt it.

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Postby Samir » 27 Nov 2005 19:22

Whoeee - the gen levels in that F16.net thread are awesome. Great reading - we should archive that thread :)

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Postby JCage » 27 Nov 2005 19:51

The posts are worth repeating:

moose69 Posted: Nov 27, 2005 - 11:08 AM

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Status: Offline I am happy to answer any questions that I can but it seems like some of them are nearing the secret level. The aircraft did not simulate any of their "real weapons" because we all had "make believe" weapons with the same shot ranges in every aspect. We had make believe heaters and slammers. We even made up rules about when we could employ the gun. I am sure the dudes that flew with their helmet mounted sites were making use of them. I was able to use my JHMCSS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System) for everything but firing off boresight because part of the rules dictated that. The ROEs were pretty simple for shot criteria because of the fictional weapons.

As for flying hours, one of the Flanker pilots told me openly that he gets about 200 hours a year in the front seat...Their higher ranking dudes fly in the back seat and act as Mission Commanders.
I would feel comfortable against the MKI only in BVR...the thing has thrust vectoring for crying out loud


Having flow in mixed formations now with all of their jets i would say that they are very capable and probably the best air force in Asia. Some of their planes are old but the skill of the IAF pilots make them hold their own. I do think that the Viper holds up very well with most of them, however, because we are downright hard to see and our maneuverability is awesome. Getting slow with some of these jets is not advised. :D



moose69 Posted: Nov 26, 2005 - 02:28 AM

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Status: Offline We started off on the first day with mixed formations doing fingertip flying, which was really cool. Next was some BFM, ACM, and Tactical intercepts. Then came the BVR Air Combat Tactics with us flying in mixed LFE formations with Su-30s, Mig 29s, Mig-27s, Mig-21 Bisons, and Mirage 2000s. The last phase was HVAA (High Value Asset) OCA and DCA. We did get into close combat with every jet they had and it was awesome... Their Sus and Migs really have a lot of power and it was impressive to see how they handled in BFM. The SU-30 was soooo easy to spot those because it makes the F-15 look like a Viper. One thing to note on the BFM strategies was that their pilots would do maneuvers that we had not really thought of before...I am not saying that we didn't know how to react to it, I just mean that when we saw them do a certain maneuver we would think "wow, I never thought of doing that before"....so it was good learning on both sides.


moose69 Posted: Nov 26, 2005 - 03:45 PM

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Status: Offline Yeah there were a large number of higher ranking pilots there. I guess I came off as being "literal" in that comment. I wasn't trying to imply anything by saying that they were all LtCols anyway.... I know that two of the Fulcrum pilots were Flying Officers. What I was thinking was a LtCol was actually a Squadron Leader (Major equivalent). They were all good pilots and we all had a lot of fun. We were just thinking that it was really cool that we got to go being so young and flying with their better pilots. Thats all I was trying to say folks. What do you guys really want to know about the exercise? We had "Within Visual Range" fighting with all of the aircraft types but it was based on notional weapons, as Ragin pointed out. The Mig-21 Bisons pilots will tell you that they don't fly the Mig-21, they fly Bisons. :D


Ok I will try and answer all these questions to the best of my ability...Lets start with the Bison in WVR and BVR...thse are all on the unclass side of course. There were never any true 1v1 BFM against Bisons because, lets face it, it's an old airframe and can in no way turn with the Viper. There were, however, some TI to ACM with Fulcrums and Bisons together. Now keep in mind that we were fighting with fictitious weapons, and the Bison felt it had the best advantage to blow through a WVR engagement and "light the candle". On the LFE side, they did openly (because I was in an integrated "package" with them) stick with the floggers as strikers. I thought the fact that they would also do TI and 1v1 ACM with Fulcrums was interesting too.
Now the Fulcrum, I thought, has the most powerful engines as a ratio of aircraft size. Everytime one would take off it would do a slow climb at high AOA and then power out of it, a few times it looked as if it was going to stall at any moment...it was truely impressive to watch. The guys who had incentive rides in the fulcrum were impressived with it's power and maneuverability. It is a large aircraft and was not too difficult to spot in the air unless they were using haze or the sun to their advantage. Their engines tended to smoke significantly. As for BFM, we were all impressed with how the Fulcrum performed...very close to the viper.

As for the F-15's, they were under certain rules just as we were so I am not surprised at what happened.

The Su-30 can perform very well, especially with an experienced pilot who knows his airplane. Their squadron commander was an outstanding pilot whom we all respect deeply. If the Su-30 ever gets into WVR without being spotted (you can see the guy a looong way off), then you are going to have your hands full.

As for the AWACS, it did get airborne and was able to control the IAF from the air. After they IAF got used to the radio comm and working with the E-3. they were doing awesome. I was in a couple of LFEs with them and they seemed to adapt really well in preformance. They are, of course, planning on buying AWACs in 2007...that was in the Indian Newspapers.

As for what they plan to buy...there was only talk on the "BRO" level....the concensis is that they will most likley go a Mirage 2000-5 since they already have maintenence and ties with that airframe already.

Lastly, we were not there to show of the Viper so that they would buy it...again, there were mutual rules enforced based on notional weapons for both sides.. We flew against the IAF and with them against the USAF. We did our best in BFM and in everything else...I am sure that they are impressed with the USAF F-16s but whether or not we were there to sell them Vipers is way above my pay-grade. As for the MKIs, they only did BFM for a few days and then split. The MKI is the pride of their fleet and the SU-30ks are eventually going away. There were only a couple of pilots that flew against them and from what I am told it handled nicely. I am not sure of what I can talk about in that area.

The Mirages are great in BFM because they are hard to see. Their delta wings give them a good instant turn capabililty too. I would say that in a BVR arena it is essential to have the aircraft on your radar if you want to do anything...In the dogfight arena.....if you don't have visual on the aircraft then you have already lost.
I don't think I can get into details about radars but the Mirage seemed like a pretty nice jet in all arenas.

Moose


Ragin' Posted: Nov 27, 2005 - 02:32 PM

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If you could give us a week we will have a complete compilation of photos to share with you from the exercise. Moose has answered most of the questions you've posed and I apologize for not answering more, but I have been chasing tail since I've been back. It is comforting though to see the tow o f the conversation focus on the premis of the exercise.

One question that I would like to address is that of the MiG-29 vs the Mirage. I had the priviledge to fly against the Fulcrum in ACM and the M2000 in BFM. I would say that the Fulcrum has the exclusive reign of power, but would not weight that in excess of the M2000's ability to point it's nose (which is quite impressive...trust me). However, we did not get the chance to fly with the MiG-29s in BVR combat. The M2000s could hold their own quite well (in combat as well as on the golf course). Once again, I think it is a good example of the real question being of pilot, techinique, and above all else reaction making the real difference.

As said in previous threads, many of us were amazed at how similar we were as far as being fighter pilots...it was also amazing to see that the axioms of BFM stand true...

Lose Sight, Lose Fight
Manuever in Relation to the Bandit
Nose fight versus Energy Fight

Moose...get back to posting the new FIH and stop surfing the net! Just kidding bro!


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Postby JCage » 27 Nov 2005 19:57

Samir wrote:You know what is really advanced about the USAF? Their pilots can go on a BB, right after they have completed an exercise, and talk about it, and post photos.

Wow, if one of our pilots tried that, the IAF would expel his kid from Air Force School, make his wife dance at the AFWWA dinner, and add 5000 to his serial number.


To be honest, part of the US's extraordinary openness with regards to some of their military ability is because of their overwhelming strength in numbers and technology. Take that away (hypothetically) and they too would only be showing bits and pieces of what they have and what they can do. Of course, goes without saying that India needs respite from babucracy in the MOD and hamfisted implementation of the OSA from the colonial era, but we can certainly see some of the reasons why the IAF or the other services are not so liberal about actual operational ability.

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Postby JCage » 27 Nov 2005 20:00

Victor wrote:Good post, Mohan.

Exactly because of the Patriot Act, I would lean towards the two F-16 guys being coached by GOTUS to release the desired line for the general audience in such fora. One can never tell who's listening. In this case, that line happend to be good-to-OK stuff about us Injuns from the horse's mouth which complements the line at the official USAF websites. What leads me to this view is the fact that these two are joined-yesterday newbies at F-16.net suddenly saying "ask and I shall tell all". As F-16 Jocks, didn't they have anything to share with the F-16 Jock wannabes on that forum before Cope India? And the "minimum rank colonel" bit was jarring. They COULD be that uninformed but I doubt it.


Could we please get off the vast GOTUS does everything, coaches everthing conspiracy theory and cynicism? Pretty please?
Sometimes compliments flow from the heart, and theres no reason to shoot oneself in the feet by coming up with convoluted theories to explain them away. Its but obvious that they were riled at suggestions that the USAF purposely "lost" Cope India again to sell the F-16 and similar stories floating around that forum (and many others) when in reality, as Ved pointed out, both AF did their best to prevent it from being a USAF vs IAF thing, and IAF pilots performed well on "both" sides.
Plus, they were tickled pink at flying *with* a/c they only dreamed of, and that too as opponents. I am sure quite a few young IAF pilots would have felt the same about flying against F-16's.

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Postby Kartik » 28 Nov 2005 00:35

in fact, if there is even a little bit of Chankianness in us, we'd use these posts to blow Puke propaganda back into their own windows..these posts are the PERFECT rebuke to those who cast doubts on the IAF and its pilots..and we all saw it come right out of the horses mouth ''Having flown in mixed formations now with all of their jets i would say that they are very capable and probably the best air force in Asia."

now this is coming straight from a USAF pilot..what more could we guys ask for as propaganda tools ?? :D its now time to spread this around..every damn forum that has Pukes in it.. :D

George J

Postby George J » 28 Nov 2005 00:56

Why propaganda? No matter what you say them madrassa maniacs wont listen to you. They cant...they only believe Lahori Logic. Dont waste your energy proving a fact to the keepers of the madrassa mathematics flame. If they still feel that 1 Madrassa Pilot=10 SDRE pilot...more power to them.

We know that, IAF knows that....and the rest of the world knows that. We got bigger lizards to fry.

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Postby Kartik » 28 Nov 2005 02:09

no George sir, heart of hearts they know that the IAF would whoop their asses bigg time..all they care for is show baazi. :D and now that the wind is gone from their sails, no amount of bullshitting is going to work..its time for the BRfites to spread the word..the age of the IAF bragging is here ! :)

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Postby Victor » 28 Nov 2005 03:14

JCage wrote:Could we please get off the vast GOTUS does everything, coaches everthing conspiracy theory and cynicism? Pretty please?

JCage, we might be talking past each other though I'll grant that "coached" was a bad term to use. No doubt the guys spoke from the heart after being impressed by the MKI, Bisons and IAF performance in the air and on the golf course. Their trashing of the earlier nonsense in the forum has sent a message. I would just feel that much more comfortable (and pakis would feel that much more uncomfortable) if it had official sanction which I believe is probable.

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Postby Gerard » 28 Nov 2005 06:13

Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
"Since the cold war, there has been the general assumption that India is a third-world country with Soviet technology, and wherever the Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn't perform well," says Jasjit Singh, a retired air commodore and now director of the Center for Air Power Studies in New Delhi. "That myth has been blown out by the results" of these air exercises.


Tell that to the participants of bharat-rakshak.com (Guardian of India). On any given day, this website seems devoted to which Indian fighter plane uses which missile, with occasional grumblings about why Saurav Ganguly is still playing on the Indian cricket team. But during Cope India '05, Bharat Rakshak was a veritable cheering session for the underestimated Indian Air Force.

George J

Postby George J » 28 Nov 2005 06:44

Umm who discussed cricket on BRF? How did I miss that discussion....must have been Enquoob. :twisted: On one hand you McJingos want this place to be a think tank on the other hand you want to discuss cricket. Imagine if Rand started taking contracts from NFL/MLB. Brrrr...no sports allowed in think tanks.

Now back to CopeIndia "cheering session".

Kartik:
We believe in zimble living and high thinking. Why do we need to brag? Let the braggers do the bragging...the ball is in their court to prove otherwise. Those Yeager trained boys will have no problem inviting the USAF (after all they are MuNNA right) to hold equal-equal exercises with them. After all joint ops are needed on fronts in the war on terror. :twisted:

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Postby Tilak » 28 Nov 2005 06:47

From : Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
More recently, an American pilot who participated in the exercise, added his own two cents on the blog. "It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website," wrote a purported US "Viper" pilot. "They made some mistakes and so did we.... That's what happens and you learn from it."


Mods,
Can somebody please, take up the issue of the "Viper" pilot's comment [ie. "It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website," ] was in response to the preceding comments posted on F-16.net, and was not in response to what was posted on Bharat-Rakshak.com. :twisted:

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Postby Ved » 28 Nov 2005 07:22

Kartik wrote:..what more could we guys ask for as propaganda tools ?? :D its now time to spread this around..every damn forum that has Pukes in it.. :D


Why bother?

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Postby Rajit Ojha » 28 Nov 2005 07:53

From : Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Quote:
More recently, an American pilot who participated in the exercise, added his own two cents on the blog. "It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website," wrote a purported US "Viper" pilot. "They made some mistakes and so did we.... That's what happens and you learn from it."


Mods,
Can somebody please, take up the issue of the "Viper" pilot's comment [ie. "It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website," ] was in response to the preceding comments posted on F-16.net, and was not in response to what was posted on Bharat-Rakshak.com.


Actually, Scott is a regular on "Foreign Correspondent" an NDTV news analysis show hosted by Colonel "Arjun-is-crap" Shukla :) . Maybe Vishnu can ask the good Colonel to get the good Mr. Baldauf to retract :)

But nice to see BR getting more and more publicity 8)

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Postby Div » 28 Nov 2005 08:23

...would have the occasional outburst of jingoism...


Scott is definitely a lurker here...hopefully he will read these posts and clear up the article to differenciate between BR and F-16.net.

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Postby Kartik » 28 Nov 2005 09:38

anyway, Moose is definitely genuine..he has posted new pics and I'v asked him to mail a few to me if he can..watermarked of course. those pics are really great ! and he said that the pics will make their way to the IAF..so I guess the IAF will come out with a report just like last year with all pics and stuff..and there is another stunner of a Fulcrum supporting a whole squadron of guys on it ! :D

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Postby Mihir » 28 Nov 2005 10:07

Kartik wrote:and there is another stunner of a Fulcrum supporting a whole squadron of guys on it ! :D


Wasn't that a Flanker? Or is there another pic of the Fulcrum?

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Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2005 10:09

elmihiro wrote:
Kartik wrote:and there is another stunner of a Fulcrum supporting a whole squadron of guys on it ! :D


Wasn't that a Flanker? Or is there another pic of the Fulcrum?


There's a new fulcrum pic carrying humans just like trains and buses i.e. - on the "roof". :lol:

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Postby Mihir » 28 Nov 2005 10:19

shiv wrote:There's a new fulcrum pic carrying humans just like trains and buses i.e. - on the "roof". :lol:

Kind of makes you wonder what the Il-76 is capable of... :wink:

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Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2005 11:12

. Moose confirms a flanker pilot told him got 200 hrs/yr and the senior pilot flies in the back as WSO. oriented towards a BVR combat regime I guess wherein radar , ECM and missile release need a good hand while junior in front follows the AWACS orders.

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Postby AnantD » 28 Nov 2005 11:22

About the weight of all those guys sitting on top of the airplane wing:

The wings on these planes is designed much in excess 100 psf air pressure, which would be the maximum weight these guys would have if they sat side by side covering the entire wing.

I was watching the testing of a Boeing 777 wing on a program, and the load and deflection that took was tremendous, about 500 psf maybe. So a relatively short wing on a superonic fighter with 9G capability is going to be designed for a lot more. My guess is that with all those people on the wing, say 15 people x 200 lbs, or 3,000 lbs is nothing compared to what the wing might actually see carrying a full load of armament while pulling 3-4 G. Since the loading is dynamic and not static other issues such as fatigue and overdesign are involved.

I don't think they would have all got up there on the wing if they didn't know, they have probably done it on other planes before.

psf = pounds per square foot, for those metric people.

George J

Postby George J » 28 Nov 2005 11:31

Singha wrote:. Moose confirms a flanker pilot told him got 200 hrs/yr and the senior pilot flies in the back as WSO.


You can use your madrassa maths and figure out how many hours the airframe has flown since 1997 and then perhaps you will understand why I keep harping about the fact that IAF "flogged" the -30K. Its nearly obscene the # of hours they have put on that aircraft, there is no way that airframe can ever be upgraded to anything...MKI avionics?? Ha.

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Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2005 12:03

with two sets of pilots each 30K may have logged around 400 hrs in the air for last 8 yrs -> 3200 hrs. what is total airframe life 6000 hrs ?

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Postby Jagan » 28 Nov 2005 12:17

George J wrote:
Singha wrote:. Moose confirms a flanker pilot told him got 200 hrs/yr and the senior pilot flies in the back as WSO.


You can use your madrassa maths and figure out how many hours the airframe has flown since 1997 and then perhaps you will understand why I keep harping about the fact that IAF "flogged" the -30K. Its nearly obscene the # of hours they have put on that aircraft, there is no way that airframe can ever be upgraded to anything...MKI avionics?? Ha.


You still need to have the Pilots/Squadron figure to calculate the airframe hours.

With just one variable 200 pilot hours per year, its not enough.

You can probably have 6 pilots logging 1200 total flying hours each by flying 600 airframe hours or just have 2 pilots logging 200 hours each by flying 200 airframe hours. So unless you know how many pilots in the sqn are there, you cant arrive at the figure.

(disclaimer - all terms are mine - not official, perhaps someone can put in the correct terminology)

member_7824
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Hello All

Postby member_7824 » 28 Nov 2005 12:24

Hey guys, this is Moose. I see you guys have been reading F-16.net and that some of you are not happy with my posts there. I was mistaken about the IAF rank structure and I apologize for saying there were only Wing Commanders and above.
I feel very lucky to have been at Kalaikunda and am thankful for the IAF friends that I made there. I don't care about politics or "whos the best", I was just having a good time flying and hanging out with the IAF. The objective of the exercise was to improve relationships between the two nations and I am sure that we did that.

Very Respectfully,

Moose

Arun_S
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Postby Arun_S » 28 Nov 2005 12:36

Moose: Welcome to BR.

Your apology is accepted and I withdraw my comment.

George J

Postby George J » 28 Nov 2005 12:49

Jagan wrote:You still need to have the Pilots/Squadron figure to calculate the airframe hours.........With just one variable 200 pilot hours per year, its not enough...........


True true...but then I guess you will never know....mu hu hu ha ha ha. Thats why you infidels should be worshipping the K not the MKI. :twisted: There be no MKI if it werent for them K.

Moose:
A lot of people who matter.... where it matters the most read BRF. I can guarantee you that those familiar with your call sign (and those who played golf with you) would find it strange that you think only Wing Co.s took part in CI05. Its a big faux pas, I would find it kinda strange if my new golf buddy didnt know where I stood in the pecking order, especially when we are both trying to build/improve relationship, interoperablity etc. etc.

Jagan
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Postby Jagan » 28 Nov 2005 13:22

Moose,

just a post to let you and your friend on F-16.net know that we are very thankful for the vast amount of information and photos posted on that site. As you can see most of our site members thoroughly enjoyed the info and photos you guys have posted - Thanks!

As we keep saying in India Lage raho. (Keep going on at whatever you are doing!!)

regards

Jagan

Arun_S
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Postby Arun_S » 28 Nov 2005 13:27

Moose: For interoperability did you use secure link(voice, data)? of Indian or US standard?

What was the typical & longest sortie duration? Did part of the excecise fly far and wide to Rajesthan desert?

member_7824
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Postby member_7824 » 28 Nov 2005 13:31

"A lot of people who matter.... where it matters the most read BRF. I can guarantee you that those familiar with your call sign (and those who played golf with you) would find it strange that you think only Wing Co.s took part in CI05. Its a big faux pas, I would find it kinda strange if my new golf buddy didnt know where I stood in the pecking order, especially when we are both trying to build/improve relationship, interoperablity etc. etc."

You're absolutely right. Again, I apologize.

Singha
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Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2005 13:42

whew I only wish our pilots had 50% of the freedom usaf pilots get. the details released so far from indian size is total zero. hope the "powers that be" lose their needless paranoia about nonclassified stuff . if need be they can release in controlled manner via reliable channels like deccan herald and The Hindu science reporters to keep down the DDM factor.
:roll:

Vishnu
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Postby Vishnu » 28 Nov 2005 13:45

Hi ... I really think we should give Moose and Ragin the opportunity to express themselves without them worrying about Bison mounted BR jingos storming their homes with spears, country-made rifles and golf clubs ...

Everything mentioned so far as far as the exericises went are completely accurate. We need to move beyond the rank issue and get a genuine understanding of stuff ...

Since Moose seems keen to comment further ... then I have a few specific questions ...

1. Did the Bison score kills against the Viper and if so in what situation .. BVR, WVR ...
2. Did IAF pilots rely extensively on datalinks ... and since you were flying in mixed formations ... did the IAF transmit any data to you?
3. You seem to indicate in F16.net that an F-16 manuvered from a defensive to an offensive position against a Su-30 MKI ... to go to guns? Did the MKI also have a kill against the F-16?
4. Did you detect anything different or unexpected in the radar characteristics of the Mirage 2000?

Thanks
Vishnu
Last edited by Vishnu on 28 Nov 2005 15:30, edited 1 time in total.


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