Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part II

Jagan
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Postby Jagan » 28 Nov 2005 17:10

Vishnu, not directed at you, that was for kartik and tilak who got into a dogfight of their own! will be cleaning up the other posts as well.

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Postby Rajit Ojha » 28 Nov 2005 19:19

Blog-jock

Moose...another one of your buddies?

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Postby JE Menon » 28 Nov 2005 19:35

In the Scott Baldauf article, the airbase is referred to as (Mallus hold on to your coffees)...

"Kalaikundi" :oops:

Rough Translation: Bull's Ass :rotfl:

George J

Postby George J » 28 Nov 2005 21:58

Et tu Jagan???? Then fall GJ. :(

JEM:
I snorted my kapee outta my nose when I saw the Kalaikundi. Actually its not kundi in malayalam its chundi, Kundi is Tamizh...but like 80% of the language mallus have even taken over that too.

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Postby Ved » 28 Nov 2005 22:37

Vishnu wrote:Hi ... I really think we should give Moose and Ragin the opportunity to express themselves ..... Thanks
Vishnu


I dont know if he's monitoring this site.

Incidentally, we once flew together in the same formation - do you recall? If so, call me at vedshenag@redifmail.com.

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Postby Dileep » 28 Nov 2005 22:37

What is the correct pronun or Kalaikunda? is it kaalai like bull or kalai like art?

And GJ, you got the manglish wrong. It should be "chanthi" to be phonetically correct, but the other word too is really mallu now.

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Postby Harry » 28 Nov 2005 23:15

Moose, two more questions if you don't mind,

1. What are the salient features of the Bison which make the aircraft so talked about today?

2. How does the vanilla Su-30K (no TVC, canards) compare to the MiG-29, in BFM ?

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Postby Laks » 28 Nov 2005 23:37

That CSM article by Scott Baldauf has been syndicated in ABC, Chicago Sun Times and UPI link :eek: That's some lifafa folks.

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Postby Raja » 28 Nov 2005 23:47

lol too bad they confused f-16.net with BR. Oh well

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Postby khukri » 29 Nov 2005 01:47

khukri wrote:Edited by Admin: The url to news iteam is already posted, why post it again and this time full body?

sorry admins - hadn't seen it when posting!

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Postby Gerard » 29 Nov 2005 02:01

Vishnu wrote:No Sir ... I am true to my tribe ... DDM till I keel over in factual inaccuracies ... !!!



Careful, "factual inaccuracies" nurture the inner dork.

Planning to join Darth Shukla over on the dark side?

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Postby Raja » 29 Nov 2005 03:31

did anyone else notice that posts by the f16 pilots were removed from the other site? Wonder if some jingos saved them...

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Postby Samir » 29 Nov 2005 03:52

Well, about two pages gone from the F16.net thread. Too good to last? Very interesting. I hope someone saved some of those pages.

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Postby Arun_S » 29 Nov 2005 04:06

Here are Vishnu Som's some not seen before images as well as older ones with low footprint watermark. All of them larger in size.

DJM
Image

and DDM
Image

and the deadly Bahadur-Bison combo

Image

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Postby Ujjal » 29 Nov 2005 04:21

Vishnu, you look smart - way better than McJingoes hahaha. Thats how BR should be represented!

Heartfelt apologies to McJingoes. :P

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Postby viveks » 29 Nov 2005 04:37

Looks like I missed the big-moose party. Any one willing to provide details?

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f-16net Ragins, Moose quotes and photos

Postby PV Mathew » 29 Nov 2005 04:39

luckily i saved all of them till they were taken off. must be either an IAF complaint or USAF or both

I guess some body might have visited F-16 admins in UK and gave them an offer they could not refuse

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Postby Himanshu » 29 Nov 2005 04:42

Is it possible to have those transcripts over here....

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Re: f-16net Ragins, Moose quotes and photos

Postby viveks » 29 Nov 2005 04:43

PV Mathew wrote:luckily i saved all of them till they were taken off. must be either an IAF complaint or USAF or both

I guess some body might have visited F-16 admins in UK and gave them an offer they could not refuse


Is it possible to send it accross to vivek@msgs.zzn.com

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f-16.net - big moose and co

Postby PV Mathew » 29 Nov 2005 04:45

ok - bug moose is back. lokks like he got a gun on his head

moose69 Posted: Nov 28, 2005 - 11:54 PM

Newbie



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I asked Asif to take those posts down for now because we didn't like where the questions were leading.

Thanks Asif

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Re: f-16net Ragins, Moose quotes and photos

Postby PV Mathew » 29 Nov 2005 04:50

viveks wrote:
PV Mathew wrote:luckily i saved all of them till they were taken off. must be either an IAF complaint or USAF or both

I guess some body might have visited F-16 admins in UK and gave them an offer they could not refuse


Is it possible to send it accross to vivek@msgs.zzn.com



Can the BR and IAF admins advice please, as I am a us resident and dont want copyright problems.

Can someone registred on f-16.net (stealth-spy i think) ask Moose, ragin please

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Postby Kartik » 29 Nov 2005 05:34

Himanshu wrote:Is it possible to have those transcripts over here....


I posted most of Moose's posts on another website to create "awareness" :D ..could post them all back here so someone can save them and use them for reference later on.

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Re: f-16net Ragins, Moose quotes and photos

Postby PV Mathew » 29 Nov 2005 05:52

PV Mathew wrote:
viveks wrote:
PV Mathew wrote:luckily i saved all of them till they were taken off. must be either an IAF complaint or USAF or both

I guess some body might have visited F-16 admins in UK and gave them an offer they could not refuse


Is it possible to send it accross to vivek@msgs.zzn.com



Can the BR and IAF admins advice please, as I am a us resident and dont want copyright problems.

Can someone registred on f-16.net (stealth-spy i think) ask Moose, ragin please


OK Guys, here it is (the transcripts).
The phtos i will upload to ofoto.com if thats ok


Quote:Ragins


As far as what is posted on the internet regarding news stories and who beat who, you can make your own decisions. I would venture to say that the stories of the outcome of the exercise were already written before we flew 10.5 hours across the South Pacific to get there. What really happened there? Both sides had set of notional missiles with notional ranges. Guns kills were based on aspect and range with no regard to stability of WEZ or tracking solutions. Both sides fought hard, but also had integrity for the debrief and no-one tried to skirt around the facts. Sometimes the IAF killed the Vipers and sometimes the we killed the IAF...but a lot of the operations were not designed as IAF vs USAF. Most were mixed configs on both sides.

We got some gun footage and so did they. They made some mistakes and so did we...that's what happens and you learn from it. But, throughout the entire exercise, there was not one safety incident. The USAF lost no fighter sorties due to maintenance the entire two weeks and the IAF only lost one. For two weeks of training, both sides got more out of their training than they probably would in two months.

Quote:Moose69


We started off on the first day with mixed formations doing fingertip flying, which was really cool. Next was some BFM, ACM, and Tactical intercepts. Then came the BVR Air Combat Tactics with us flying in mixed LFE formations with Su-30s, Mig 29s, Mig-27s, Mig-21 Bisons, and Mirage 2000s. The last phase was HVAA (High Value Asset) OCA and DCA. We did get into close combat with every jet they had and it was awesome... Their Sus and Migs really have a lot of power and it was impressive to see how they handled in BFM. The SU-30 was soooo easy to spot those because it makes the F-15 look like a Viper. One thing to note on the BFM strategies was that their pilots would do maneuvers that we had not really thought of before...I am not saying that we didn't know how to react to it, I just mean that when we saw them do a certain maneuver we would think "wow, I never thought of doing that before"....so it was good learning on both sides.

Quote:Moose69


They were all good pilots and we all had a lot of fun. We were just thinking that it was really cool that we got to go being so young and flying with their better pilots.

Quote:Moose69


Lets start with the Bison in WVR and BVR...thse are all on the unclass side of course. There were never any true 1v1 BFM against Bisons because, lets face it, it's an old airframe and can in no way turn with the Viper. There were, however, some TI to ACM with Fulcrums and Bisons together. Now keep in mind that we were fighting with fictitious weapons, and the Bison felt it had the best advantage to blow through a WVR engagement and "light the candle". On the LFE side, they did openly (because I was in an integrated "package" with them) stick with the floggers as strikers. I thought the fact that they would also do TI and 1v1 ACM with Fulcrums was interesting too.
Now the Fulcrum, I thought, has the most powerful engines as a ratio of aircraft size. Everytime one would take off it would do a slow climb at high AOA and then power out of it, a few times it looked as if it was going to stall at any moment...it was truely impressive to watch. The guys who had incentive rides in the fulcrum were impressived with it's power and maneuverability. It is a large aircraft and was not too difficult to spot in the air unless they were using haze or the sun to their advantage. Their engines tended to smoke significantly.

Quote:Moose69


As for BFM, we were all impressed with how the Fulcrum performed...very close to the viper.

Quote:Moose69


As for the F-15's, they were under certain rules just as we were so I am not surprised at what happened.

The Su-30 can perform very well, especially with an experienced pilot who knows his airplane. Their squadron commander was an outstanding pilot whom we all respect deeply. If the Su-30 ever gets into WVR without being spotted (you can see the guy a looong way off), then you are going to have your hands full.

Quote:Moose69


I am sure that they are impressed with the USAF F-16s but whether or not we were there to sell them Vipers is way above my pay-grade. As for the MKIs, they only did BFM for a few days and then split. The MKI is the pride of their fleet and the SU-30ks are eventually going away. There were only a couple of pilots that flew against them and from what I am told it handled nicely. I am not sure of what I can talk about in that area.

Quote:Moose69


The Mirages are great in BFM because they are hard to see. Their delta wings give them a good instant turn capabililty too. I would say that in a BVR arena it is essential to have the aircraft on your radar if you want to do anything...In the dogfight arena.....if you don't have visual on the aircraft then you have already lost.
I don't think I can get into details about radars but the Mirage seemed like a pretty nice jet in all arenas.

Quote:Moose69


As for flying hours, one of the Flanker pilots told me openly that he gets about 200 hours a year in the front seat...Their higher ranking dudes fly in the back seat and act as Mission Commanders.
I would feel comfortable against the MKI only in BVR...the thing has thrust vectoring for crying out loud

Having flow in mixed formations now with all of their jets i would say that they are very capable and probably the best air force in Asia. Some of their planes are old but the skill of the IAF pilots make them hold their own. I do think that the Viper holds up very well with most of them, however, because we are downright hard to see and our maneuverability is awesome. Getting slow with some of these jets is not advised.

Quote:Ragins


One question that I would like to address is that of the MiG-29 vs the Mirage. I had the priviledge to fly against the Fulcrum in ACM and the M2000 in BFM. I would say that the Fulcrum has the exclusive reign of power, but would not weight that in excess of the M2000's ability to point it's nose (which is quite impressive...trust me). However, we did not get the chance to fly with the MiG-29s in BVR combat. The M2000s could hold their own quite well (in combat as well as on the golf course). Once again, I think it is a good example of the real question being of pilot, techinique, and above all else reaction making the real difference.

Quote:Moose69


About their aircraft, obviously each one has strengths and weaknesses depending on what type of mission it is doing. The IAF are trying to adopt more western (and autonomous) methods of flying and beginning to separate themselves from the old Russian style of "close control", which is why they were flying with AWACS and performing their own intercepts, etc. From the rules and weapons that were used in the exercise, I found their jets to be very capable in their respective roles. We all know, however, that in a real war with a real enemy we won't be using fictional weapons and tactics. It was still very much a learning experience for both sides and it was awesome to see their aircraft in action.

Quote:Moose69


I do think that the Viper holds up very well with most of them, however, because we are downright hard to see and our maneuverability is awesome. Getting slow with some of these jets is not advised.

As for BFM, we were all impressed with how the Fulcrum performed...very close to the viper.

Quote: Moose69

It really sucks to see the press break it down to "whos the best" or whether or not the F-16 is aging. The Vipers we flew just went through the most advanced upgrade there has been since the A model was released. It really doesn't matter what kind of technology we were flying with in that exercise because we were given certain ROEs by the Indians and the playing field was leveled by "making up" weapons to use.

If you want the true facts about the two BFM engagements between the MKIs and the F-16s, here you go: In one of the engagements the F-16 maneuvered from a defensive position to an offensive gun wez based on the "exercise" rules.

We sure didn't underestimate the IAF like the press is implying, we have been training for awhile. Any good fighter pilot trains to not underestimate anyone.

Quote: Moose69

Posted: Nov 28, 2005 - 11:54 PM
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I asked Asif to take those posts down for now because we didn't like where the questions were leading.

Thanks Asif

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Postby Leonard » 29 Nov 2005 05:54

Of-Course the Plagiarist Khalid Hasan, has copied the CSM Article Lock, Stock & Barrel except for ...

u guessed it --- :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Reference to BR Removed ...!!!

Daily WHINES says time to DUMP F-16s

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Postby Dileep » 29 Nov 2005 06:13

And he even maintained the Bull's Ass!!!! :rotfl:

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Postby H Sen » 29 Nov 2005 07:22

The Bulls Ass error is really freshman-level plagiarism! The plagiarist should know better, considering that "Kalaikundi" AFS was attacked very effectively by the PAF in '65... Poor ********. Forgetting apna glorious history etc.

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Postby viveks » 29 Nov 2005 09:50

Actually, the air base was indeed attacked by puki dudes in 65. My father was completing his bachelors then. Those who staid in Azad hall will know how close it is to the base. He saw the dog-fight with his own eyes at that time. He said that the hunters had just returned from bombing their bases, puki dudes followed them to the air -field and the battle took place above the base itself. But the air-field was intact.

Puki dudes did mount the attack but the attack was not effective enough. Our very own Gnat fighters took them down.

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Postby CPrakash » 29 Nov 2005 10:25

viveks wrote: He saw the dog-fight with his own eyes at that time. He said that the hunters had just returned from bombing their bases, puki dudes followed them to the air -field and the battle took place above the base itself. But the air-field was intact. Puki dudes did mount the attack but the attack was not effective enough. Our very own Gnat fighters took them down.


Not wishing to say your dad was wrong, but there were two attacks on Kalaikunda, KKD for short. first atttack by the paf destroyed six aircraft and they went back unscathed. second attack by paf destroyed two aircraft - but was intercepted by our hunters which shot down one/two/four depending on which version you believe. There were no Gnats at KKD.

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Postby JTull » 29 Nov 2005 11:59

CSM article is getting wide coverage (and so is BR :D )

Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run

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Postby Ajay K » 29 Nov 2005 12:38

PV Mathew Posted: 29 Nov 2005 12:22 am Post subject: Re: f-16net Ragins, Moose quotes and photos


Strengths of IAF fleet in excerise.
M2K - BFM, WVR, BVR
Fulcrum - ACM, BFM
SU-30K/MKI - BVR
Bison-Flogger - ACM, LFE
Bison-Fulcrum - ACM
F-16 seems to have done well against all of them. M2K seems to be the most impressive according to USAF.

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Postby joy_roy » 29 Nov 2005 14:51

One thing i would like to point out is the fulcrum`s engines does tends to smoke a lot ...as moose mentioned...and also as we can see in the part 2 of MISSION UDAAN.This might not help fulcrums fighting in a WVR situation and a heat seeker missile after her.

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Postby eklavya » 29 Nov 2005 16:52

joy_roy wrote:One thing i would like to point out is the fulcrum`s engines does tends to smoke a lot ...as moose mentioned...and also as we can see in the part 2 of MISSION UDAAN.This might not help fulcrums fighting in a WVR situation and a heat seeker missile after her.


With all due respect, a heat seeker seaks heat, not smoke ... otherwise designing counter measures would be exceptionally easy.

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Postby Uday » 29 Nov 2005 17:53

eklavya wrote:
joy_roy wrote:One thing i would like to point out is the fulcrum`s engines does tends to smoke a lot ...as moose mentioned...and also as we can see in the part 2 of MISSION UDAAN.This might not help fulcrums fighting in a WVR situation and a heat seeker missile after her.


With all due respect, a heat seeker seaks heat, not smoke ... otherwise designing counter measures would be exceptionally easy.

where there is smoke there is of course there is fire and hence heat!!!

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Postby saip » 29 Nov 2005 18:04

Uday wrote:
eklavya wrote:
joy_roy wrote:One thing i would like to point out is the fulcrum`s engines does tends to smoke a lot ...as moose mentioned...and also as we can see in the part 2 of MISSION UDAAN.This might not help fulcrums fighting in a WVR situation and a heat seeker missile after her.


With all due respect, a heat seeker seaks heat, not smoke ... otherwise designing counter measures would be exceptionally easy.

where there is smoke there is of course there is fire and hence heat!!!


All AC engines produce heat and smoke. The question is whether an engine producing more smoke has a higer heat signature than the one that does not produce as much smoke.

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Postby Uday » 29 Nov 2005 18:05

my own analysis of cope-india 2005

1) CI 2004 if it was about confrontation,then CI 2005 was about absorbtion/assimilation read about friendships(moose/ragin) being made, golf being played ...,mixed group of USAF/IAF machines. It was no longer about x v/s y . How better it is for a USAF to assimiliate IAF amongst its wings.They have realized it too late.Good for a change.They will of course say that IAF set the ROE's!!!

2) These excersises hope to establish amongst the IAF many things
A) A new generation of young IAF pilots will now grow up on western machines/technology/tactics and so on. This of course will reflect on procurement policies/ policy shifts or trying to mate more western equipment to Russian machines which is already under way.
B] When Moose remarked about lifelong frienships being made, then he was subtly indicating about USAF trying to harvest human intelligence. They will sow the seeds now and harvest it later. IAF will do the same.

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Postby joy_roy » 29 Nov 2005 19:09

eklavya wrote:With all due respect, a heat seeker seaks heat, not smoke ... otherwise designing counter measures would be exceptionally easy.


A heat seeker seeks heat???????? Silly me....I used to think that they are after the pilot`s autograph :lol: . Anyway....a smoking engine leaves a trail of hot smoke behind it which is pretty helpfull to a heat seeker.

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Postby Dileep » 29 Nov 2005 19:48

Heat! Smoke! Come on children! The exhaust is hot whether it is with or without carbon particles, ie smoke, so it does not matter for a heat seeker. But it is a slightly different story for eyeball-mk1 sensor. however, the smoke gets dispersed quickly, so it will not be a great deal of problem.

And would anyone really distinguidh the smoke in our hazy skies?

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Postby Ved » 29 Nov 2005 20:45

Dileep wrote:....And would anyone really distinguidh the smoke in our hazy skies?


Absolutely - especially with an overcast of stratiform clouds. The smoke could be spotted from >20 kms.

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Postby Dileep » 29 Nov 2005 21:05

Vedji, that was a piece of pun on our skies. Watching the airshow clips and snaps, it is clear that you can see the trail from a long distance. But I would imagine that only eyeball-mk1 can distinguish it. Right?

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Postby khan » 29 Nov 2005 21:31

What percentage of IAF fighter pilots are TACDE grads?


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