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Posted: 07 Dec 2005 08:52
by JCage
Flight International reported the 8222 deal way back- it was stated to be for the MiGs and Jaguars and IN Sea Harriers. Then a second tranche for the MiG21 upgrade. Then came the report of it having been selected for the MKI as well.

Posted: 07 Dec 2005 08:54
by JCage
BTW, the Jaguar upgrade is stated to have got a new ASPJ as part of the program.

Posted: 07 Dec 2005 21:05
by rad
Can any one confirm that su-30mki`s took part in the recent cope exercise, i am unable to a see a pic of one in the pics posted on the forum , all i see is su-30`s---. . if we did not, the better.

Have sources from the US given us the same credit what they gave us during the last exercise ?.

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 05:26
by Vijay Hirani
Rad,

For the first part of the question, I did see a photo on the F16 site where a 4 aircraft were flying in a Diamond formation, with the SU30K followed by 2 F16 and an SU30MKI at the back.

The SU30 MKI did participate but for a very short while, they went back to their home bases while the exercises were still going on.

For all I know they just came to the exercise to collect signature information on the F16s.

For more details, the experts can contribute

Vijay

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 06:59
by PV Mathew
rad wrote:Can any one confirm that su-30mki`s took part in the recent cope exercise, i am unable to a see a pic of one in the pics posted on the forum , all i see is su-30`s---. . if we did not, the better.

Have sources from the US given us the same credit what they gave us during the last exercise ?.


here is a copy of the original quote by one of the f-16 pilots (Moose) on SU-30mki participation

Quote: Moose69

I am sure that they are impressed with the USAF F-16s but whether or not we were there to sell them Vipers is way above my pay-grade. As for the MKIs, they only did BFM for a few days and then split. The MKI is the pride of their fleet and the SU-30ks are eventually going away. There were only a couple of pilots that flew against them and from what I am told it handled nicely. I am not sure of what I can talk about in that area.

Posted: 09 Dec 2005 22:12
by maitya
JCage wrote:BTW, the Jaguar upgrade is stated to have got a new ASPJ as part of the program.

This what I don't get - an internal SPJ was always an integral part of the Bison programme - and so should be part of the 27/Jaguar and probaly MKI too.
Now external ASPJ may be ok for 27/Jaguar/MKI - but WHY on a Bison. I mean with 2+2+1 pylon why waste a hard-point at all - on an escort mission (that too on a short-legged one like the 21s), the 27s can carry it - but why on Bisons. :eek: Just get those 77 and 73 pairs plus a drop-tank :twisted: and you've a formidable top-cover platform.

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 22:13
by Igorr
The "bisons" came out excellently"
To some sums of Indian- American exercises in India

From 19 to 24 November, 2005, in India were carryout the joint Indian- American exersises. The informed source in the region of military technical collaboration with the foreign countries in the conversation with the correspondent "aviaPort..Ru" commented some sums of the joint exercises of two countries.

From the Indian side in the studies have participated Su-30MKI's, modernized MiG-21bis with onboard RLS "Kopyo -21", MiG-27, MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage. The aircraft of distant radar detection and control OF AWACS participated from the side OF THE USA. In to the so-called first wave of studies participated lightweight fighters F -16s with the equipment block 50 with finished BRLS "68", and in the second wave - the heavy fighters F -15.

F -16s block 50 are some of the most perfect planes of American AF with passive ESA radar. Only the fighters of the last modification F -16 block 60 are equipped with active impulse antenna cascade .

Data of study were the third according to the calculation. In previous two theAmerican side, with advancing heavy fighters F -15 , completely lost all combat, moreover sometimes the relationship of losses it reached 8:1 and 9:1 in favor of Indian pilots. Russian Su-30MKI showed the suppressing superiority over F -15 both on the maneuverability and on the combat effectiveness. The effect was the torn bomb for the Americans became application in training combat of the light modernized destroyers MiG-21bis with the airborne radar (BRLS)"Kopyo -21" - these destroyers, possessing small RCS, actually on the equal "battled" with the the contemporary F -15 and won in them. Both Russian and American aviation specialists noted the extremely high level of the professional flight training of the crew of the line units AF of India. In many parts of the AF of India the annual fly expierence of crew comprises to 300 hour (in THE USA - 250 hour, in Russia - 30-40 hour).

the Americans recently noted two factors - combat Su-30MKI and with those modernized MiG-21bis "bison". Moreover MiG-21bis "bison" it participated both in the air battles and in the war shooting against the ground targets.

As already was communicated, the Indian destroyers Su-30MKI won the majority of air combats with lightweight fighters F -16s. MiG-21bis "bison" as a whole they also showed themselves well. In all in the studies participated several destroyers MiG-21 of different flying line units VVS of India.

MiG-21bis "bison" revealed F -16 at the distance 60 km, which corresponds to its declared characteristics. Destroyers F -16 revealed MiG-21bis "bison" by approximately the same distance - in F -16 somewhat more powerful than BRLS, but RCS of the MiG-21bis "bison" are less than in F -16.

The Americans analyzed rather well previous air "combat" with MiG-21bis "bison" and drew the specific conclusions - they increased the zones (distance) of launching AAMs . However, the increase in the zone of launching AAMs by destroyers F -16 was given only due to reduction in the probability of destruction of target.

Under the effects along the ground targets Indian pilots on MiG-21bis "bison" simply amazingly conducted the bombardment of ground targets with the free-falling bombs - with the discharge of aircraft bomb from the distance of 1,5 km from the ground target, its deviation from the purpose comprise practically "zero". The Indian side noted that the assault actions MiG-21bis "bison" by aircraft bombs are performed on this destroyer was "excellently".

As yet there is no reliable information about actions and results of the war shooting of American side, they will appear more lately. American participants in the studies speak about the relationship of the effectiveness of air it is combat in relationship 50:50, i.e., even with the presence OF AWACS, Americans consider the absence of the suppressing superiority of Indian pilots on the Russian fighters .

Until today the absence of the suppressing superiority of Indian pilots on Russian aviation engineering forced Indian AF to solve the problems of retaining its advantages in the larger volume. Thus, in the course of the carried out exercises the destroyers MiG-29 of Indian AF themselves "did not show something eminent" and therefore now the Indian side is approached the fastest conducting of the modernization of combatant MiG-29 in its AF.

Source: site"aviaPort..Ru"
Correspondent: Dmitriy Kozlov
babelfish translation http://www.aviaport.ru/news/2005/12/12/98582.html

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 22:25
by JCage
Sorry but that report has a few errors as well. The MKIs participated but briefly in the exercise, they didnt take part in the one against F15's at all.

The F16 Block 50's are not equipped with passive ESA radar. They merely have slotted array APG's of the latest block bar a couple.

The RCS bit is very interesting- how reliable is this magazine regarded in Russia?

Posted: 12 Dec 2005 22:42
by Dileep
RDM? In parallel with DDM?

Posted: 13 Dec 2005 03:18
by Igorr
JCage wrote:Sorry but that report has a few errors as well. The MKIs participated but briefly in the exercise, they didnt take part in the one against F15's at all.

The F16 Block 50's are not equipped with passive ESA radar. They merely have slotted array APG's of the latest block bar a couple.

The RCS bit is very interesting- how reliable is this magazine regarded in Russia?

- The issues of aeronautics both mil and civ - are their specialisation. It is a most reliable site about the russian aeronautics problems. However, with the international issues they may have problem, bcoz they have not any stringer in India. The source, I think, somebody from the russian Industrial-Mil Complex. Interesting also, that the brought facts seem ambiguous for MiG Corp (MiG-21 good, MiG-29 poor). Thus can belive it is not PR campany only.

Posted: 16 Dec 2005 02:56
by JCage
Or they are just pushing the need for an upgrade. Journos all over the world have little clue of mil industrial stuff and regurgitate bilge without a wince. Especially in india.

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 09:07
by member_7896
Namastae! :)

Regarding Cope India's, Garuda's and so on. How do they register simulated fires and their results?

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 12:40
by Arun_S
Maximus_G: Доброе утро. & Welcome :)

IIRC a combination of weapon computer log, camara shot, excercise referee(s) watching in the AWACS and sometimes refrees in the WASO seat. The result is simply based on agreed upon effective range of the weapon and agreed upon weapon's Pk (probability of kill)

Posted: 19 Dec 2005 14:09
by Austin
In many parts of the AF of India the annual fly expierence of crew comprises to 300 hour


So factual is the above statement , is the 300 hours and average for pilots or just for some elite squadron.

Posted: 20 Dec 2005 05:15
by member_7896
Arun_S wrote:Maximus_G: Доброе утро. & Welcome :)

IIRC a combination of weapon computer log, camara shot, excercise referee(s) watching in the AWACS and sometimes refrees in the WASO seat. The result is simply based on agreed upon effective range of the weapon and agreed upon weapon's Pk (probability of kill)

Considering a typical BVR engagement using SARH missiles. The attacker should lock on target and maintain that lock for the time equal to the estimated travel time of the missile. Loss of lock (due to target's or self-maneuvering, etc.) would mean missile's miss.
If we're not using that scenario, then there are no missile misses, no counteracting, no maneuvers, no fight at all.
So there should be some real-time technology, more advanced than a combination of calculator+stopwatch in the hands of the pilot :)
Maybe some special training radar modes?