Cope India 2002

advitya
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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby advitya » 26 Oct 2002 05:52

Originally posted by George J:
Have we ever excercised with the Soviet Onion and the russians?

Or any Warsaw pact countries?
NO

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby member_201 » 26 Oct 2002 07:39

AF delivers 2,500 pounds of clothes, food to the residents of India charity home

http://www2.hickam.af.mil/news/2002/2002246.htm

George J

Re: Cope India 2002

Postby George J » 26 Oct 2002 09:50

Are you sure we NONE of our forces ever excercised with soviet union or russia or warsaw pact countries?

That sounds absolutely strange to me....why would we not excercise with forces with whom we have at least common equipment with?

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Mohan Raju » 26 Oct 2002 10:08

why would we not excercise with forces with whom we have at least common equipment with?
George:

For the same reason that we never allowed Soviets to have bases in India. Buying eqpt is one thing, getting too close is a different thing altogether. India has always jealously guarded its independence and kept other countries at arm's length.

Further, I don't think (and this is my speculation) India thought she had anything to learn from the Soviets. Russian military performance is a history of incompetence and bumbling, compensated for by brute force and massive numbers. This is vastly different from Western countries and India, who both have at least a respectable number of successes, and a few brilliant successes, to compensate for their occasional failures/bunglings.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby debjani » 26 Oct 2002 11:59

The turning point of WWII as acknowledged by all concerned [including a recent BBC programme] was the Battle of Kursk, where the Russian in the greatest Tank Battle of WWII routed the superior Germans!
A Soviet tank specialist Marshal [name I don't remember because of difficult spelling but starts with a 'T'] was an acknowledged futuristic looking General as acknowledged by the West and more so by Brig Richard E Simpkins (Race to the Swift and a oft quoted military genius}.
The much touted US 'Revolution in Military Affair (RMA)' of which much was seen in the Gulf War, is but an acknowleged follow up of the Soviet 'Military Technological Revoltuion (MTR)'.

Therefore, it may not be fair to debunk the Soviets that glibly.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Raj Malhotra » 26 Oct 2002 12:54

T-34 was also a beautiful tank design though the mechanicals may not have been very good.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby JE Menon » 26 Oct 2002 13:03

George J, we were non-aligned. We still are, I think :D , but there's nobody to non-align against so we can exercise with all comers.

George J

Re: Cope India 2002

Postby George J » 26 Oct 2002 22:16

A ha now this thread has life..... no more psychophancy of chasing ATV, GPS and red heads.

Mohan:
What you say is cogent, but then how to you rule out what Ray said and what GD has to add? If I extend your logic, then it seems that Indian are merely 'users', and I would say tactless and short sighted ones too.

Further, if joint exercise implies allowing bases, then Agra will soon have a strip mall and a 7Eleven.

If you factor in the recent spetznaz raid against the theather, and also that Col. Ivan Crasto had undergone specialized training with th Spetznaz, its almost difficult to accept your hypothesis.

I am trying to weed throught the hoopolah of the current COPE dope by understanding who have we exercised with in the past and what did we do?

Like someone said on the previous page, this exercise at Agra is nothing more than a PR exercise and hopefully a micro level PR building exercise. Micro PR are always suseptible to macro policies. Tomorrow we **** of the Americans, say bye bye to exercises, all we have to show for is donated cloths to Missionaries of Charity home in Agra (pardon my saturday morning super-cynicism).

Excercises always carry a deeper meaning than just plain jumping off each other's planes (which reminds me could someone post pics of amrikans jumping off An-32 with desi gear?)

The bedrock of good US-Paki relations which flies in the face of sheer morality, is the deep military ties the countries have had for decades. Training at US colleges, exercises etc. Jumping around the Taj Mahal in the oh-so-fine october weather in Northern India aint gonna undo that. Hence I m a bit cynical of the great euphoria displayed in ths thread.

Even if the argument is "every thousand mile journey beings with a first step"*, the sheer fact that its gonna take a thousand mile journey makes me rather impatient. And to borrow from our other jingos on other threads, a lot can happen between Pakistan and the US in our thousand mile journey. Somehow in all my siestas through history class, the concept of 'divide and rule' seems to be creeping into my memory.

I need some kapee now......

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Ashok » 27 Oct 2002 02:39

Originally posted by Ray:
The turning point of WWII ...was the Battle of Kursk, where the Russian in the greatest Tank Battle of WWII routed the superior Germans!
A Soviet tank specialist Marshal [name I don't remember because of difficult spelling but starts with a 'T'] was an acknowledged futuristic looking General as acknowledged by the West and more so by Brig Richard E Simpkins (Race to the Swift and a oft quoted military genius}.
.....
Therefore, it may not be fair to debunk the Soviets that glibly.
I think the person you have in mind is Marshal Semyon Timoshenko. However, I was under the impression that the general in command at the
battle of Kursk was not Timoshenko but Georgii Zhukov; Timoshenko perhaps had overall command, but Zhukov, I think, deserves the honours for Kursk. Also, I would dispute the fact that the Germans had superior forces -- at best, I would say that the numbers were comparable, with the Soviets having a marginally higher number of tanks, if memory serves me right.

I am not, however, implying any implicit inferiority or superiority of the Soviet military in comparison to the Western European forces.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby NRao » 27 Oct 2002 03:24

That sounds absolutely strange to me....why would we not excercise with forces with whom we have at least common equipment with?
Add to the above list: I would prefer to excercise with those who have diff equipment than I do.

Regarding Amrikan jumping of An-32s, well, well, Deshi Bhai do not have fotokamera in the first place, even if they did the foto have to be declassified, then they have to be developed for publication, then they have to be transferred to a plate, etc, etc, etc. Just wait. They will come out in 03. Flip side, you may just find one soon on the Hickam web site.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Mohan Raju » 27 Oct 2002 04:00

George:

I'll try and confine my remarks to this post, to avoid hijacking this thread.

When discussing military cooperation/exercises with other countries, I was confining my remarks to "conventional" military operations, not Spetsnaz-type deals. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you meant the same. Certainly, that's what this "Cope India" thing, along with "Malabar" etc. are. As for Spetsnaz-type ops, it may very well be that Indian forces could gain from cooperative trainiing with Russia. They probably do, for all I know.

Re. Kursk/Stalingrad/Leningrad etc., you have to remember that many of the "natural advantage" factors were in Russia's favor. They were on home ground, they had the advantage of size (Mother Russia was so vast that they could withdraw to the interior almost at will, to exhaust the Germans and strain their logistics), they had the advantage of climate (General Winter was on the Russians' side, as in the fight against Napoleon). The Sovs were being massively supported, in terms of money and supplies by the US/UK, and in spite of all of this, it was sheer brute force of numbers and firepower that defeated the Germans, after many years. To say nothing of the fact the Germans were simultanoeusly fighting the whole world, and advanced to within a few kilometers of Moscow in the bargain. Along the way, the Wehrmacht had to fight two enemies -- the Soviet forces on the one hand, and Hitler and his incompetent micro-managing cretins on the other. Under such circumstances, I fail to see how any halfway-competent Soviet performance could fail to dislodge the Germans in time. And that is exactly what happened -- a halfway-competent Soviet performance dislodged the Germans in time. The Sovs had the advantage of massive numbers and firepower, against an enemy whose supply lines were stretched to the breaking point.

So tell me, George, what exactly does India have to gain from training/exercising with the Russians? It seems to me that the lesson from Russo-German conflict is this: if you are going to fight someone, it helps if you have American money and industrial power on your side, and it helps if your enemy is simultanously fighting the rest of the world. It also helps if your enemy's military men are constantly being micro-managed and second-guessed by their incompetent, semi-insane civilian dictators.

In scanning the history of Russian military performance, I look in vain for instances of brilliant performance under dfficult conditions. Where is Russia's Operation Safedsagar? The equivalent of IA's heliborne ops in East Pakistan? Rommel and the Afrika Korps? Montgomery and the Eigth Army? Royal Navy's supply convoys to Murmansk? Britain's performance in the Falklands?

Even simple naval operations like horizontal and vertical replenishment have not been demonstrated by the SOviet/Russian navy. This kind of thing, a test of basic seamanship, is routinely carried out by the IN and various Western navies.

This is not a discussion of whether the Russians are good or bad, it is a discussion of tactical military skills. I fail to see what India has to learn from Russia.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Kakkaji » 27 Oct 2002 06:34

Mohan:

I think you are discounting the Russian fighting ability in WWII a bit too much. Consider the following:

1. If the Germans suffered from micro-management by an incompetent Hitler, the Russians also suffered from micro-management and worse from an incompetent Stalin. He actually killed most of the competent officers of the Red Army in his numerous purges before and during WWII.

2. The German industry was far more advanced and their armament technically superior to what was available to the Russians. The levels of education and training of the Russian soldier were also much lower than his German counterpart.

While the American material aid and the favorable weather and logistics helped, it was the doughty fighting spirit of the Russian soldiers and the patriotic fervor of the Russian population that, despite sustaining horrific casualties (20 million dead out of a population of 200 million), did not surrender, and kept on fighting toe-to-toe until defeat was turned into victory. Think of Stalingrad (where Russian soldiers and civilians had to pay the price for Stalin’s vanity in not allowing to surrender the city bearing his name), where an entire Russian infantry division was consumed within something like four days of hand-to-hand urban combat, and yet they defeated the elite German Luftwaffe troops. I cannot think of many other nationalities that can fight so doggedly. Their military tactics are often different from the Western militaries, but are more suited to their own circumstances, and have succeeded in defending their nation against technically superior enemies in the past. Some of their doctrine/tactics may be more suitable for India, which is a poor and highly populous country, as opposed to those being used by the western countries. Do you seriously think that India can afford to deploy the levels of capital/technology that the likes of US/UK can do so as to avoid casualties among their soldiers?

While I do not discount the value of joint exercises with the Americans, I think there is value in conducting such exercises with the Russians also (and who knows if we are not doing that already!)

Rajeev

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Victor » 27 Oct 2002 07:28

Originally posted by George J:
(which reminds me could someone post pics of amrikans jumping off An-32 with desi gear?)
You got it.
From RK's earlier posts. Incidentally, the caption is wrong. Those are An-32s, not 'US Air Force planes', and presumably US paratroopers, not 'Indian Air Force soldiers'.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby debjani » 27 Oct 2002 08:22

George,
Much of your contentions are valid.
However, apparently the rubbishing on Russians when someone was rhetoric about if we have exercised with what they called ‘Soviet ONION’ has caused the examples to bring forth the fact that Russians too have points that are praiseworthy.
As I had mentioned, the much touted US Revolution in Military Affairs is ORIGINALLY a Soviet philosophy that the American have copied and refined. Therefore, one may give the Soviets some credit.
If one goes through Richard E Simpkins RACE TO THE SWIFT and other related books by him or even read THE ART OF MANOEUVRE by Robert Leonard one would find that while predominantly Germans have led in this field, yet Russian to find a place for credit.
In fact, Marshal Tukhachevski [the name that was escaping my memory] was the author of the concept that there was a requirement for an AFV for the ‘ordinary’ forces [close fight – infantry support] and an AFV for ‘extraordinary’ forces [long range tanks for deep penetration manoeuvre.
Tukhachevski was not at the Battle of Kursk since he had been purged!
Indeed Marshal Zukhov was a great general. He became the Soviet Defence Minister later.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby nathan » 27 Oct 2002 17:01

even if these exercises are of value (not just for symbolism, feel good displays) for now, how is it good if when there ever is a joint mission of US-India, it will likely be an entirely different set of guys on both sides whom never had such experience or exercises. Only remedy is to have ongoing exercises all the time. Am I right?

Another thing is i've looked at all photos posted and all of them follow the same them of Indians learning from US forces, Indian jumping out of US planes, Indian taking intructions, Indians learning this that, listening to lectures. Where the heck is the part where US learns something from india, jumps out of us planes, etc. even if that 1 photo shows US jumping out of india planes and caption is wrong, there should be still other pictures. there is zero publicity about this joint exercise in media in US. But even where there is coverage (as linked to in this thread) it all seems to follow the one-sided them of India being learner, US being teacher. Unequal relationship. they probably want their western public to see: oh our boys just teaching some third worlders how to fly, jump from planes etc.

i hope i'm wrong, but the conclusion is unavoidable as just look at all the pictures all are showing US teachers, INdian learners.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Nikhil Shah » 27 Oct 2002 17:24

To get a true picture of this exercise, you have to wait it our "Indian Air Force Soldiers" put their version on a website or a newsletter....knowing India, that won't happen so I am going to join the w-camp and call for closoure of all such exercises in future unless it involves practicing taking out nukes from certain countries. :whine:

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Rudra » 27 Oct 2002 18:25

Mohan Raju, all the books I have read agree that by Kursk the Russians were superior to the Germans in the concepts of armoured manouver warfare. They were still held back by attrition, and inferior tanks compared to panthers & tigers but on a broad level they had something to teach the Germans.

When these concepts got married to superior logistics and materials, they crushed the germans.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Surya » 27 Oct 2002 18:30

thread hijack alert

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Surya » 27 Oct 2002 18:45

thread hijack alert

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Surya » 27 Oct 2002 19:08

thread hijack alert

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Manne » 28 Oct 2002 22:40

Originally posted by nathan:
i hope i'm wrong, but the conclusion is unavoidable as just look at all the pictures all are showing US teachers, INdian learners.
Actually nathan, we should not really have any problem with that as long as

1. our folks are really adding value to themselves and the Indian armed forces
2. our folks know that there are a thing or two that they could have taught others but did/could not due to a variety of reasons

It does not really matter what perception is created as long as the *real* results are positive. That is not to say we need not be good at PR...just that PR is less important. In one of the articles posted on BRF somewhere, I remember someone from IAF saying that they already knew what they were being "taught"...the major difference was that the equipment of USAF was lighter. That kind of a quote tells me not to worry too much about PR. :)

BTW, thread hijack ended successfully :lol:

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby ramana » 28 Oct 2002 23:21

The IAF exercised with RAF and USAF in 1963 in Operation Shikshak. The aftermath was the decision to upgrade the air defence Netwrok with radars etc. The idea was what role could the Western Air Forces in case of need for help against China. Needless to say not much.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Harry » 29 Oct 2002 02:00

i hope i'm wrong, but the conclusion is unavoidable as just look at all the pictures all are showing US teachers, INdian learners
Teaching???Would you care to read the subtitles please?Demonstrations would be more accurate.

If you're not convinced,this should make you happy:

<img src="http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/news/Oct2002/sm_GT1.jpg" alt="" />

Indian paratrooper Saresti Kumar (left) shows 1st Lt. Ned Marsh, Company A, 1st Battalion, 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment, how to use the Indian Army's AK-47 during Geronimo Thrust. The first-ever training exchange between the Indian and American armies.
http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/news/Oct2002/a20021016gerthrust.html

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Rudra » 29 Oct 2002 02:09

it seems the paras get the /cloth covered/ helmets BR has been demanding for last 4 yrs. patkas are cloth covered too and everyone seems to wear these.

who decides on which unit gets to wear patkas -vs-
old-model-helmets ?

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby Amitabh » 29 Oct 2002 04:31

The article posted above has some very interesting information, even if you skip by the inevitable "they're all good chaps and talented paratroopers" commentary. For instance:

After briefings on weapons such as the M240B machine gun and the 60mm mortar launcher, the Indians got to fire all of them. The sharing went both ways, as 1st Bn., 501st PIR soldiers used the Indian army's AK-47s.

"It was cool to shoot their AKs," said Pfc. David Meyers, Company A, 1st Bn., 501st PIR. "Their weapons are lighter than ours, but carry more of a kick on the recoil."

Besides sharing weapons, the allies traded tactical knowledge.

"They're learning about cold-weather operations and how the American Army conducts mass tactical operations," said Glenn. "The terrain here has let them see how to adapt many of their strategies for jumping and conducting ground operations."

The Indians assisted the Geronimos' knowledge in close-fighting, said Chauhan.

"We have a lot of combat experience in anti-terrorism," Chauhan said. "We have been fighting terrorists for a long time now, and I believe that the U.S. Army learned from some of our techniques in exercises such as the shoot house and trench attacks."

The Americans also learned from the Indians about the airborne operations, said Glenn. "We mostly use static lines, and they usually do free falls," said Glenn. "One thing that we can learn from them is more about high altitude operations. The Indians are used to jumping from higher altitudes than we are, and it has
been good to have their input about the way we do things."
This sounds more like an exchange that a one-way process.

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Re: Cope India 2002

Postby debjani » 29 Oct 2002 10:12

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
it seems the paras get the /cloth covered/ helmets BR has been demanding for last 4 yrs. patkas are cloth covered too and everyone seems to wear these.

who decides on which unit gets to wear patkas -vs-
old-model-helmets ?
Helmets are standard issue. Patkas are heavier and locally manufactured. In the CI grid patakas are used.


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