Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

JCage
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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby JCage » 14 Feb 2003 13:47

A few points:

Vishnu described this as "western BVR tactics etcetc" which the IAF is seeing for the first time and similar lines...this is wrong.The IAF has trained with similar techniques quite a long time back!I can confirm the above and so can many others.
What Vishnu probably meant was that the IAF is training with "Modern French BVR tactics" for the first time.This would be true!

All NATO AF's have a certain component of commonality-but the Logistics commonality shared by ABCA(America,Britain,Canada,Australia/NZ) is unique to them-however,the tactics developed by each AF are pretty much unique to that AF and is as reflective of the aims of the AF and the equipment they deploy!
The RAF uses E3's with Tornado's armed with SARH Skyflash and Foxhunter radars.Their tactics will be honed for this weapons system combination.The French use Mirage 2000's with RDI/RDY radars with Mica's and Super 530D's with E3's.Their tactics will be honed for the operational characteristics of their particular weapons systems.Even with AWACs out of the picture ,i think the point is clear.Each AF uses tactics primarily developed by its gurus as well as shared knowledge common to all and picked up from exercises etc.

Now to the French-IAF ones.The French are using their own tactics honed for their more modern variants of the Mirage 2000.The IAF tactics are also pretty robust and have held up well in exercises.The fundamental premise is sound and the benefits of operating BVR for a couple of decades cant be denied,which can be testified to the fact that the IAF pilots were getting Launches at nearly the same time as the FAF once they revised their tactics.This quick revision wouldnt have been possible without the benefits of sound working principles and experience.

IAF tactics for any a/c weapons system are developed at two levels in the operational sense.
The Squadron Level.The TACDE.Other establishments like the ASTE(Primarily testing agency to induct the system) also chip in with suggestions etc.

Also consider,the IAF's other prime Weapons System is the MiG29.Not in the exercises.The Su30K/MK each witha highly developed radar/missile combo.Not in exercises.The Su30 MKI.Ditto.The MiG21.Ditto.All have longer ranged BVR missiles than the Super 530D.

Net,the IAF is utilising its oldest unupgraded fighters(even the Mig21 Kopyo is better than the RDM) with the French AF's Mirage 2000's with better avionics and getting hands on experience with what the French AF have developed over the decades.

Worth its weight in gold.

Whatever advantage ,any French tactics confer ,will be spread out over the TACDE and all BVR capable squadrons-the MiG21 Bison ones,the Mirage 2000's(which these excercises will hopefully lead to upgrades) ,the Su30 Mki'S and the MiG29's.
The knowledge of *French BVR" tactics(not generic "western tactics") is good for us!

And the French arent going back emptyhanded either.They have learnt BVR isnt infallible against dedicated opponents and have hopefully won their domestic industry a big fat contract!

Heck,now what we need is the IAF's Su30K's vs the USAF's F15's.

--------------------------
Nitin

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Vishnu » 14 Feb 2003 13:49

Hi ... Thanks for the concern about security issues ... but there is nothing I have written which is confidential ... all of this information was available to 40 other journalists who were present. All they had to do was ask. There were things I was asked not to mention ... and those remain with me.

In fact, there were members of Air Forces monthly as well ... this was an effort at transparency by the Air Force ... and a laudable one at that ..

Thanks
Vishnu

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby JCage » 14 Feb 2003 13:51

BTW,whatever Vishnu has said till now appears to be a more refined version of whatever the IAF has allowed to be known.There are other reports of Jags +Mirages vs their Mirages and so on so forth.No security brouhaha here.
Also the other thing he said about RDM radars has also been well known for quite some time back.Has been published in AIrPower and janes and is even available on the net.
No security hangup here.
And i do think the IAF knows what it wants to be known and what shouldnt be.
Time for the MOD To upgrade the Mirage H's.Now why would i say that? :D

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Jagan » 14 Feb 2003 14:09

Vishnu described this as "western BVR tactics etcetc" which the IAF is seeing for the first time and similar lines...this is wrong.The IAF has trained with similar techniques quite a long time back!
Nitin,

Can we have more details please ?

I am talking of a foreign NATo/West European airforce visiting India with its fighters or Indian fighters being deputed to a similar country on such an exercise.

-Jagan

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Vishnu » 14 Feb 2003 14:15

No Nitin ... I don't really think the IAF was using this op to push for the Mirages ... In fact that was the news-peg that all of us were trying to get at ... and it didn't work ... but yes, the IAF is clearly pushing for more Mirages ... I met the Chief a few days back in Delhi ... and I asked him if there would be a competition to win an order ... ie a fly-off with other types ... and he indicated that it didn't make sense for us since we wanted continuity ... Even in the past, ACM Krishnaswamy and ACM Tipnis have spoken highly of the Mirage ... If we do sign a fresh order, this is the plane we will get ...

They probably want to scale down their fleet to 4 types ... the number 4 is doing the rounds ... though the Chief wouldn't confirm the number ...

I would guess it looks like Sukhois, Mirages, Jaguars and LCAs ...

What about the Bisons you may ask ... who knows ... :)

Vishnu

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby JCage » 14 Feb 2003 15:04

Jagan,
Check mail.BR id.

Vishnu,
I am not talking of the IAF trying to push for "more" Mirages,but making the powers that be loosen their purse strings for the long in the works upgrade package.
Regarding a/c types being standardised -not yet,i'd wager.The MiG23BN's,27's and 29's still have a lot of life left in them.The 21-93 upgrade is also a substantial investment.

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Jagan » 14 Feb 2003 15:41

Nitin

I am making a point (as is Vishnu) that we did not pitch aircraft head to head against any western air force aircraft in the modern times. there is a difference between deputing pilots and taking our aircraft/systems over there for an exercise. I know individual pilots have been posted in small numbers to Israel or US and got thier requisite number of hours, probably learnt the BVR tactics etc, but this sort of an exercise did not involve taking our aircraft across.

The College of Air Warfare had done innumerable studies on tactics by USAF, the persian gulf war, kosovo etc, and they would probably know in and out of the theoretical aspect of it. But, in addition to studies by teams on tactics, whats required is a strong need to give the junior guy in the cockpit a feel of flying in these kind of oppurtunities. That can be done by only by getting their aircraft here or taking our aircraft there. To the best of my knowledge - it didn't happen with IDF or any western nation atleast.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby JCage » 14 Feb 2003 16:11

Jagan,

Tactics are useless unless specific systems are in the play.Apart from that,on an open board,one cant say more.Suffice to say,pilots deputed anywhere do not just learn theoretical stuff or for that matter just fly a few hours.

There is a difference b/w what the CAW would theorise and what operational techniques would involve.CAW was talking of western PGM's long before ODS,when did PGM's on the lines of ODS enter IAF service in decent numbers?Of course we had russian PGM's but other things took time to materialise.

Also,i dont think any Junior guys are going to be involved in any exercise involving an AF for the first time.The juniors in any Sq are not going to get a chance to don their suits in any limited number of planned sorties,where the learning curve is steep and every move may translate into a lesson learnt.

If one wants even the juniormost pilot to get into it,then one exercise wont suffice.You need regular round the clock ,round the year exercises with a lot of time to play around wth.Case in point,NATO used the 29's from the former EGermany to fly around and pit their skills against both raw recruits and experienced hands.The exercises were conducted over many days and involved squadrons from many nations.

Hence hopefully even the USAF will head over and this becomes a regular feature.

Vishnu said:

"The issue is not about the IAF lacking BVR ... Most IAF pilots I spoke to mentioned that they were exposed to Western/NATO tactics in BVR for the first time"

I disagree with this statement on a fundamental premise.The IAF pilots are operating on the same principles as AF's worldwide too.Whether it be NATO or Western.

This may have been the first time ,real alive FAF pilots came over to share their BVR techniques instead of IAF pilots heading over and learning the same and applying it back in India.The same tactics whether applied by an Indian or an American dont change the tactic.
And i repeat this is not plain theory.

So the IAF being "exposed to western BVR techniques" for the first time is plain wrong.

And this has been said by live and kicking IAF pilots too in response to earlier stuff about IAF not being exposed to western tactics etc.

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Jagan » 14 Feb 2003 16:43

Suffice to say,pilots deputed anywhere do not just learn theoretical stuff or for that matter just fly a few hours.
dont think any Junior guys are going to be involved in any exercise involving an AF for the first time.The juniors in any Sq are not going to get a chance to don their suits in any limited number of planned s...
Nitin,

I use the term 'Junior' to refer to pilots of Sqn Ldr rank and below. I am sure there are a significant number of Sqn ldrs, Flt Lts involved in this exercise. Now you dont see too many of them getting an oppurtunity to go abroad and test their skills first hand.

To the best of my knowledge all the pilots who went on deputation on the kind of missions you mentioned are either Wing co or Group Captain rank - correct me if I am wrong. The Squadron leaders i know who went abroad were on training assignments.

The number of pilots are deputed abroad is pitifully small - and the time taken for the knowledge gained to be communicated back , studied , analysed and disseminated among the younger pilots at this juncture is quite long. A few pilots may have got this info, but a majority of them have still would not have exposure to it, in that context the statement of 'many IAF pilots being exposed to such environment' is not entirely incorrect.

whatever exposure is gained by whatever number of relatively junior pilots in these types of exercises, its all the more welcome. This one exercise in itself is insufficient in providing exposure to them, but it is a start nevertheless. Lets see what the next USAF exercise has in store for us.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Sanjay » 14 Feb 2003 19:31

Nitin,
The impression I get is that BVR tactics evolved through several stages.

First stage was get to high altitude fast and volley fire BVR missiles at bomber formations.

Second, volley fire at fighter formations with the aim of breaking them up, disrupting their cohesion and getting them to bleed of vital fuel for evasive action. If several are downed - so much the better.

The stage we are now seeing is where two BVR equipped adversaries are trying to employ flexible tactics based around "look first, shoot first" principle. The adversaries not only being BVR equipped but flying aircraft of similar performance. This is where we do have a fair amount to learn from the French.

Unfortunately, the RDM is really ageing and the RDI is a superb radar by any standard.

The word "Western" should be removed. What we are learning are "up to date" BVR tactics borne out of experience against BVR foes - France is still part of NATO - in Yugoslavia and Iraq.

Vishnu, a question - did we pick up any BVR kills against the AdA M2Ks ? You indicated that after refining BVR tactics the IAF started to improve its kill ratio in BVR. Can you elaborate a bit ? Thanks in advance.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Bishwa » 14 Feb 2003 20:11

I would guess it looks like Sukhois, Mirages, Jaguars and LCAs ...

Vishnu,
Does that mean LCAs are going to replace even the MiG-27 apart from the MiG-21?

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Shashank » 14 Feb 2003 20:16

Originally posted by Nikhil Shah:
No personal questions on the forum. You may contact Sanjay and ask him in private.
Yes Nikhil, I will remember that. Thanks for the answer fanne. Just had the doubt as Sanjay's posts are bit different than "ordinary" posts hence the question.

BTW where can I find info about how these excercises are carried out and evaluated? How they decide whether the hit has been made without actually hitting the "enemy"?

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Harry » 14 Feb 2003 20:28

Just how did the french validate their BVR "kills"?

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Div » 14 Feb 2003 21:18

Vikram, I think its safe to assume that if the IAF wanted secrecy they wouldn't have invited reporters...unless they signed some confidentiality agreements.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Sribabu » 14 Feb 2003 22:01

Vishnu,

Thanks for an excellent and concise report.

Vishnu, Jagan and Nitin,

Looks like you guys are nitpicking and loosing sight of some interesting info.

From the following facts
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> IAF Mirages have RDM
    </font></li>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> FAF Mirages have RDI which has atleast 20KM to 30KM more range than RDM
    </font></li>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> By the end of the exersice, both the IAF and FAF were launching about same time.
    </font></li>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This tells me that
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Our guys learnt their lessons fast and adapted to the situation.
    </font></li>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Found a way to overcome their technical deficiencies(lesser range of RADAR).
    </font></li>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Longer range is not everything, if not coupled with proper and appropriate tactics.
    </font></li>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My opinion of the argument is this.
Yes, IAF has done lots of studies of "Western AFs' BVR tactics", but never experienced them live. It is very different to read and learn about something from a sanitised text book, which cannot easily replace first hand experience. So, Vishnu's statement is still valid. (Here I am making an assumption that the BVR training of the IAF is based on the studies and reports of CAW and other institutions)

We all know the publicised performance values of all the RADARs. We also know that these are mostly from Lab. tests. The real performance will vary on the day of action. Hence, using this information in the thick of action is what these excersices are about and developing and practising such scenarios and tactics is what training is all about.

Since this exercise is played out at TACDE, I am sure there will be lessons for all BVR engagements of IAF.

Sri

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Sukumar » 14 Feb 2003 22:30

Vishnu, again being nit picky - a strike package (as invented by the USAF) typically is a larger group of aircraft of different types/roles to facilitate a successful strike mission. Usually it will be a core strike force with SEAD out in front, EW jammers, close in and top cover escorts, AWACS, refuellers, etc. The package will seek to dominate the air space it flies in with the objective of getting munitions on target (think of the vast bomber streams of WW2 slimmed down by the USAF thro Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm).

The reason I asked is - the IAF/PAF have never used "packages" in previous wars. Usually they have done piecemeal commitment of flights of aircraft (or even loners) and in a very tactical fashion. If the IAF is beginning to use "packages" thats a good thing. Perhaps you can clarify if they indeed are or do they still think of sending in a quad of 21s or 27s to take out a target ??

As regards the IAF pilot saying this is their first BVR engagement I find that hard to believe since the IAF has had the Super-530D, R-77 etc for some time (as others have pointed out). Perhaps what the pilot meant is that IAF ROEs might be that you make a visual identification before firing. Whereas, the French see a blip and launch ? Do you know how and when the aircraft "illuminated" their radars ?

As others have pointed out including the MiG-29 and Rambhas might have given the exercise a different dimension. Perhaps it was intentional for the IAF to only show assets the French are already familiar with such as the M2K and Jag.

I am really looking forward to the F-15 - Rambha face off. I am betting that the F-15s will be "Vicced" before they can "Fox". Now if it was the F-14 with the AIM-54 Phoenix, it might be a different story........

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby JCage » 15 Feb 2003 02:00

Jagan,

The tactics evaluated by Air Force chaps on "deployment" are available to all.They are used to re-evaluate tactics "here",make new ones,used in livefire exercises(with ACMI and advanced instrumentation,this is no longer necessary in many cases) and become "standard" training for newbies.In other word training becomes part of institutional memory.It never dies out.

By the same standards,a "Split-S" will be known to fighter pilots around the world;whoever the inventor may have been,it now belongs to a shared pool of knowledge the world over.
The particulars of the maneuver may change slightly depending on the aircraft flown and the wespons used(when to use the maneuver for max effect).But the basis remains the same.

Hence,its incorrect to note that the "IAF has been exposed to wrtyu tactics" for the first time and that these are lost over a period of time.A lot of slogging goes into making sure that these tactics are reevaluated and remain in Institutional memory for some time to come!Till either iterative or radical advances push them back.I do think things have changed from GC Bhargava's time when AF wives wrote the TACDE "rulebook". :)

A few pilots may have got this info, but a ajority of them have still would not have exposure to it, in that context the statement of 'many IAF pilots being exposed to such environment' is not entirely incorrect.

No.These would remain "codified" as it were.The only difference,the employer of the tactic would be "Bhalla" not "Black" etc.

This western tactics shindig is one more myth.The IAF has used datalinks in conjunction wth MiG29's as well as the entire system in conjunction with MiG29's.These arent "western tactics"/or "eastern tactics" but available to all.

While all this may appear semantic nitpicking,its important to make a distinction.It has not been some time before one myth of "western training vs inferior russian training" has died out..too short for us to watch another equally fallacious myth to spring up and gain wide currency.

Sanjay,

The stage we are now seeing is where two BVR equipped adversaries are trying to employ
flexible tactics based around "look first, shoot first" principle. The adversaries not only
being BVR equipped but flying aircraft of similar performance. This is where we do have a
fair amount to learn from the French.


I must add,that the IAf moreorless assumed that the PAF had BVR(through Sparrows) for quite some time and trained to compensate(Though Safedsagar has probably proved or all time this was another myth).Our Opfor may not always have been state of the art -MiG23MF's but there are Mirage 2000's on deputation at TACDE to play both roles!

We have a fair bit to learn from the FAF...i'd say we have a fair bit to learn from everyone!
And the same could be said of them too.

The look first,shoot first" principle has been taken to heart by the powers at be in the IAF for quite some time.In fact,it was this alone that made the IAF invest and wait for the NO11M on the Su30MKI despite the delays it entailed to the project.

The IAF training is defintely not "volley BVR" and this is confirmed.We are pretty dynamic-and this is limited by the equipment we operate.Given what we have inducted recently,the sky is thelimit from now onwards.

My objection,if any,is purely to the assumption that the IAF were exposed to "that western tactics bit" for the first time.If anything,we,as you would know,have spent a fair bit of study and training doing exactly the opposite.

Sri,

From the following facts

IAF Mirages have RDM
FAF Mirages have RDI which has atleast 20KM to 30KM more range than RDM
By the end of the exersice, both the IAF and FAF were launching about same time.


Yes.

This tells me that

Our guys learnt their lessons fast and adapted to the situation.
Found a way to overcome their technical deficiencies(lesser range of RADAR).
Longer range is not everything, if not coupled with proper and appropriate tactics.


Our guys learnt their lessons fast becuase their basic principles were valid.Because the IAF has been training intensively with BVR for some two decades now.Because the IAF operates four(now five) BVR missiles-The R23,the R27ER/ET,the Super 530D and their associated radars and datlinks.Becuase the IAF uses tactics from the world over-not just western/eastern/Sasian/Chinese/.....

This may all apear nitpicking,but do remember that similar myths "Mostly russian trained Indian Airforce" against the "western trained PAF" have become stuff of (in)fame(y).Its taken a lot of work to demolish that bit of fallacy and it does us no good to have another false myth spring up from the ashes.


My opinion of the argument is this.
Yes, IAF has done lots of studies of "Western AFs' BVR tactics", but never experienced them live. It is very different to read and learn about something from a sanitised text book, which cannot easily replace first hand experience. So, Vishnu's statement is still valid. (Here I am making an assumption that the BVR training of the IAF is based on the studies and reports of CAW and other institutions


This is wrong.The IAF has done more.The BVR training on the IAF is extensive and is definitely not based on book reports/tech specs etc.Its realworld to a large degree.And this has included co-training.BVR from text books is impossible.
For more details-hope you catch some fighter jocks!Real interesting stuff.

We all know the publicised performance values of all the RADARs. We also know that these are mostly from Lab. tests. The real performance will vary on the day of action.

Nope.The Radars are non critical flight items but are still-as are all aircraft parts-subjected to regular tests.They have a stated life time-for certain parts-and those need to be replaced and are replaced.At any rate,radars dont conk out "in action".(This is done at BRD's and reg checking is done at Station AFBase itself) .The IAF's exercises are as intensive so as to simulate any real time action.And enough "real tests" are also carried out to boot.

Hence, using this information in the thick of action is what these excersices are about and developing and practising such scenarios and tactics is what training is all about.

Training is always good!No doubt about that.Even the King of the hill-the USAF-spends mucho moolah going and fighting with even dung beetles(in comparison) just so as to acquire a gld nugget(in case).

But certain points must be noted.The IAF has some two decades of BVR experience.This comes from hard won training.

It involves reading assimiliating,applying and practising real world BVR techniques from ALL OVER the world.Not just western,eastern,asian etc.
We apply these tactics with what we have.Skilled crew and available weaponry.

The French have crew of perhaps equal calibre and better weaponry-this would defintely ahve given them the leeway and the edge in Garuda.Not becuase they follow "western BVR tactics" and " we dont"/"have been exposed to them for the first time etc".


Since this exercise is played out at TACDE, I am sure there will be lessons for all BVR engagements of IAF.

True.The IAF would have chosen Maharajpur for two reasons.One-can already support Mirages and two- TACDE's ACMI.

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Badar » 15 Feb 2003 02:20

Hi,

The IAF training is defintely not "volley BVR" and this is confirmed.

nitin, confirmed by who where when? Cite would be nice please.

A quotable confirmation on R-27ET would be nice too.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Sanjay » 15 Feb 2003 02:29

Nitin,
No real problems with what you say but remember we have not flown against anything with the capabilities of the RDI M2K.

There is something we should not lose sight of - we may not be able to fully exploit the Super 530D at extreme ranges because of the RDM.

The AdA pilots can and will.

Nitin, when we first got BVR missiles with the MiG-23MFs, our aim was to use those missiles to facilitate a break up of F-16 formations.

Furthermore, everything I've read indicates that the R-27 early models were not any great pieces of equipment.

Our best BVR missile was for years the Super 530D but we could not make max. use of it.

One hopes that the R-27 ER is really useable against maneuvering fighters at 100km+ and that the R-77 lives up to its hype. Nitin, any news on either ?

Now, some of you indicated that Mica production by BDL might be on the cards - how certain is it ?

Watch for something else - the Meteor. EADS is a participant in the Meteor BVRAAM project as well.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Rudra » 15 Feb 2003 02:33

the new benchmark on the subcontinent is the Bars radar. they MUST depute one MKI to TACDE to rotate
all BVR training batches through - if they are serious about it.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby JCage » 15 Feb 2003 03:46

Badar,
There are limitations to open source!You do realise that. :)
And whats been posted is hardly new news.

Sanjay,

No real problems with what you say but remember we have not flown against anything
with the capabilities of the RDI M2K.

Sanjay,thats not exactly true,but thats that.Cant say more.

Also the IAF operates the NOO1E on the Su30MK/K .Its a pretty powerful radar by itself in the pure air to air BVR mode and compares well with the RDI.
(If we factor in "new" acquisitions-the MKI and the Bison,we have even more comparable/better stuff but lets leave that out for now.)

Nitin, when we first got BVR missiles with the MiG-23MFs, our aim was to use those missiles
to facilitate a break up of F-16 formations.


Quite true(And damn you have a good memory or archive or both :) ) but this doesnt hold good today.The thing at that time was to first get to them using MiG21's and then the MF's.Anyway,the R23's are long gone from being utilised as the "edge" apart from imparting the basics of BVR.

Furthermore, everything I've read indicates that the R-27 early models were not any great
pieces of equipment.


Early variants perhaps.But the IAF sets great store by the R27's it presently has and operates.And fwiw,the PAF does too (Safedsagar also stands testimony).In fact,till the Su,the 29 was a benchmark for BVR combat in the IAF(though the Mirage man-m/c interface and multirole ability make it admired too).
There is a good reason as to why we chose the 29 as the standard escort during Safedsagar.

Our best BVR missile was for years the Super 530D but we could not make max. use of it.

True.

Now, some of you indicated that Mica production by BDL might be on the cards - how
certain is it ?


Sanjay,the MoU is pretty simple and nice.Whatever EADS/MBAD have in their inventory can be license produced by BDL.And BDL will choose whatever the services want.Thats the gist of it.

The Mica is a purely french missile whereas the Meteor is a multi nation one,iirc.So i'd wager the Mica would be a more suitable "immediate" bet.

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby AnantD » 15 Feb 2003 04:06

Could someone explain this:

We are talking about comparing 530D with a range and comparing it to the R-77 etc. etc. Here is what our own BR-Airforce missile specs say for range and terminal speed:

Matra Super 530D 40 4.5 -
R-23R 35 2.5+ AA-7 Apex-A
R-23T 35 2.5+ AA-7 Apex-B
R-60MK 12 2.5 AA-8 Aphid-C
R-27RE1 130 2.5 AA-10 Alamo-C
R-27TE1 70 2.5 AA-10 Alamo-D
R-73RDM2 40 4 AA-11 Archer
R-77RVV-AE 100 4 AA-12 Adder

Big difference between R-77, R-27RE1, TE1 and 530D.
Secondly, The Zhuk N001 on Rambha has a range of over 150 km in A-A from memory, and we are talking BVR in 20-40 km range issues with RDI, RDM. Where is the fallacy in this. Granted the further the plane, it can easier avoid a vick, so in effect, does one have to be less than 40 km with a R-27RE1 to have a decent probability of kill??

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby saint » 15 Feb 2003 04:39

Q: How does a kill happen on BVR exercies, I guess a "lock" is a kill? Does that mean our BVR capability had less ranged radars than the franco, during the exercise... if so, then what "skills of pilot" are we talking about?

Do one require special skills for BVR engagement? or is it all radar business?

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby John » 15 Feb 2003 05:04

guys,
what happened to astra which even outranges R-77 and is also supposed to have a faster than it too. If you ask me i still think reports of BEL producing mica are nothing more than to just to put more pressure on DRDO to devolop astra on time the missile has already been test fired on the ground.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby saint » 15 Feb 2003 05:07

astra, was last reported on DDM, it will be flight tested this year end {2003}.. It is still in the design stage.

feel lazy to google

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Badar » 15 Feb 2003 05:13

Hi,

There are limitations to open source!You do realise that

nitin, A pity. I 'quotable cite' was what I was looking for.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Muns » 15 Feb 2003 06:17

Interesting Points :

IAF hones in on mid-air refuelling, BVR combat :

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=119369

Sources attributed the Indian fliers' problems with beyond visual range combat to French Mirages having more upgraded radars adding that efforts were on to rectify and improve upon these tactics.

Apparently hinting at this, the Air Officer Commanding Gwalior air base Air Commodore JS Panesar said "it is time the IAF went in for upgradation of its Mirage 2000 fleet specially in combat radars".

The French Dassault company is in leading contention with the offer of 130 upgraded Mirage 2000-V in a technology- transfer basis for a deal estimated to be worth 4 billion US Dollars.

Describing the BVR combat which visualises engaging enemy fighters beyond the range of visual sight--about 30 to 100kms away-- with the help of an electronic 'lock-on' and use of long-range missile, Valette said the French effectiveness was enhanced as the pilots used Airbone Early Warning and Surveillance Aircraft.

Div
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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Div » 15 Feb 2003 06:19

So its gone from $8 to $4 billion already.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2003 07:18

I am saying 2.1 if its 50 new home made and 35 upgraded to the latest and greatest

or 2.5 if its 10 delivered + 50 home made + 35 upgraded.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby srai » 15 Feb 2003 10:20

Vishnu,

Just curious to know if any of the exercises were conducted during the night? If so, what were the results of those?

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby JCage » 15 Feb 2003 12:12

Badar,

There is a quotable site citing the R27 purchases made by India!
Google for SIPRI.
They have our purchases in PDF (lots of R27's) and the variants are mentioned,iirc,to boot.Including the ER(or RE) and the ET(or TE).

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Vishnu » 15 Feb 2003 16:29

Hi ...

A couple of responses ... Firstly, yes, there were some night missions ... the scope and details of which I do not know.

Also a few clarifications .. There seem to be a few suggestions that India's pilots have not trained on BVR. This is never what I had suggested. What I was told, repeatedly, by several pilots ... was that the tactics used by the French in BVR combat ... which a few pilots described as "Western, NATO tactics" were something they had not come up against before. Most of these pilots were training with a Western Air Force in air-air combat for the very first time.

Again to clarify ... We had Indian Mirage 2000 pilots taking on better equipped French Mirages in BVR combat. The IAF pilots found their tactics inadequate for the purposes of this exercise forcing them to re-examine their techniques. Once this was done, they were frequently calling kills in BVR combat. Our capabilities in WVR combat are not in question.

Why is it so hard to believe that our pilots weren't the best in many of the air-combat exericises ? ... This has nothing to do with the flying skills of our pilots .. it has to do with a lack of experience in training with Western pilots. Surely we must put our "hum kisi se kum nahin" vision in perspective.

BTW ... it was absolutely wonderful to see the very same Mirage 2000 Op-trainer (201) I had flown in at the end of the Kargil war ... and meet some of the pilots I had flown with.

Cheers
Vishnu

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Harry » 15 Feb 2003 17:20

Vishnu,could you possibly get us a pic of a Mirage-2000 armed with an R-73?Do the mirages also have HMS as indicated by many sources?

I think too many people are making a fuss about nothing.Remember that the IAF refined it's tactics within a short period and started gaining BVR kills fast,against an opponent who is a far more experienced operator of the type which was also upgraded.

About the R-27ERs,

Use a shorter link - Admin

Shorter link 2

Judgement of the early Alamos from the performance in the Ethiopia eritrea war is moot.No one knows the exact situation or methods employed at that time and both sides had BVR.I'm sure many people can also account for first hand IAF happiness with the R-27 type and the missile holding more respect than even the Super-530D.The luftwaffe had also indicated that the Alamo-C had a huge advantage over the Alamo-A.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Sanjay » 15 Feb 2003 17:51

Nitin,
We've done some DACT against the Israelis but allegedly MiG-29s were used.

What I'm trying to stress is how good that RDI is. It was one of the best NATO radars.

Vishnu, after revising their tactics, how did the IAF fare in BVR engagements ?

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Vishnu » 15 Feb 2003 17:52

Sorry Harry ... I don't have pics of the M-2000 with the R-73 ... and the entire issue of R-73 integration with an HMS ... is something I just can't talk about ...

Sorry,

Vishnu

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Vishnu » 15 Feb 2003 18:07

Dear Sanjay ...

I was told that after revising their tactics at the end of the first day of BVR engagements ... the IAF pilots fared much better ... with several pilots claiming kills ... In many cases, as I mentioned, pilots of both sides would "launch" almost simultaneously ... with their missiles flying past each other ...

In all of this ... I do believe it is important to stress that nobody other than those directly concerned with the exercises know the exact parameters of the exercises ... and how and in what circumstances a kill is granted. In the absence of this essential information ... it is impossible to know just where our pilots stood ... so the entire argument on just how good our pilots are (or how bad for that matter) is essentially moot.

Thanks
Vishnu

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Sanjay » 15 Feb 2003 19:18

Thanks for that Vishnu.

You know this topic indirectly brings us to the whole issue of the possible IAF purchase of RVV-AE-PD AAMs - the ramjet powered R-77 - for the Su-30MKI.

Has anybody heard/ read anything on this ? Last I heard from Air Marshal Gole in 1998 was that we were very interested. It would enable max. use of the Su-30MKIs radar.

As an aside - are MKIs fitted with rearward radar ?

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Babui » 15 Feb 2003 20:23

Can anybody speculate as to what type of tactics were innovated by the IAF Mirage pilots to compensate for greater range of French radars ? The way I look at it - if we can innovate to neutralize French radar/BVR superiority; then the PAF can do the same to surprise us.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Sukumar » 15 Feb 2003 20:27

Vishnu, can u please answer my question on "packages" above ? thanks.

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Re: Indo-French exercises: Mixed results

Postby Rudra » 15 Feb 2003 20:28

mki has a small radar in tail sting. range 10km?


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