Malabar Naval Exercises

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Malabar Naval Exercises

Postby Pulikeshi » 04 Sep 2007 23:00

India, the United States, Japan, Australia and Singapore held combined "Malabar" naval exercises in the Bay of Bengal on Tuesday.

This biggest-ever war games in the international waters between Visakhapatnam and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands will end on September 9. This will also be the first time when 26 warships from other nations practice not far from the Indian coastline. The last time such a large flotilla of U.S. warships entered the region was in 1971.

The exercises involve three aircraft carriers, two from the United States -- USS Nimitz and USS Kitty Hawk -- and one from India, hundreds of military aircraft, destroyers, frigates and submarines. Besides the aircraft carrier INS Viraat, India is fielding maritime Jaguar and Sea Harrier fighters, Tu-142 surveillance planes, Delhi and Kashin Class destroyers, Godavari and Brahmaputra Class guided missile frigates and a German origin submarine.

The exercises will involve capsules of anti-piracy, anti-marine terrorism, air defense, surveillance and interception elements.

  1. India, U.S. hold Joint naval exercises
  2. US Official Reassures China on India Naval Discussions, Exercise
  3. Joint naval exercises begin today
  4. Five-nation naval exercise begins
  5. Sri Lanka welcomes joint naval exercise in the Indian Ocean
  6. Communist party protests naval exercises by India, US, 3 other nations

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Postby Shankar » 04 Sep 2007 23:34

An attempt to bind India to the United States on foreign policy would not be acceptable," said a statement from the Communist Party of India (Marxist).

-so very stupid -they should be kept out of defense loop for sure

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Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2007 16:47

There was a debate on telly the night before involving Air Cmde.Uday Bhaskar and Adm.Vishnu Bhagwat ex-CNS and a "Leftie" (apologies to him,I can't remember his name).While the rep. of the Left made the usual statements we have heard from them these days,there was a difference ofopinion between the two ex-service officers.
Bhaskar felt that the current Malabar exercises was just another "routine" one,not aimed at China or anybody.Bhagwat however strongly refuted this saying that these exercises were actually "war games".He quoted a US defence analysts who said that these exercises were meant to "control the SLOCs" (Sea Lanes of Communications).He also said that the Chinese exercises were merely the equivalent of afriendly port visit and that in the current Malabar exercise,two nuclear powered carriers and a host ofother support ships which were being used in the Iraq war and confrontation with Iran,were present.

The "Leftie" said that these warships were "killing Iraqis" and would go back to thier businewss ofwar once the exerciseswere over.Bhagwat also said that it was unusual that no neutral ASEAN navies (other than Singapore,a US ally) were also taking part in the war games.Moreover,Japan,Australia and Singapore were all US allies and three of them ,the US,Japan and Oz were involved in Iraq and Afghanistan with their troops.It sent a wrong message to Iran and many of the the Arab countries with whom we had strong ties and depended upon forour oil supplies.The aim was to be able to integrate the IN into the US'smilitary forces ,supporting its international strategy (involving a string of "frontier forts" and "lotus pods",as one US analyst has called them,across the globe,using the facilities and forces of nations integrated into the US's gameplan) to dominate the globe.Bhagwat also said that this exercise was being seen as provocative by the members of the Shanghai Cooperation Oragnisation (SCO).The SCO includes Russia,who are the mainstay of the IN,assisting it with the ATV project,refitting the Gorshkov,building Talwar class frigates,upgrading LRMPaircraft,so-partners in the Brahmos project and most importantly leasing to us Akula-2 class SSGNs.

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Postby Tilak » 05 Sep 2007 17:01

Bhai Log,

Can we please keep this thread out of bounds, wrt. internal politics. Incase people forgot there is a wonderful avenue for venting --> "Red menace thread".
----------------------------------------

No entry for Indian media at naval drill
Nivedita Mookerji
Tuesday, September 04, 2007 09:12 IST

[quote]NEW DELHI: A joint naval exercise in the Bay of Bengal involving the navies of India, US, Japan, Australia, and Singapore, starting today, will be out of bounds for the Indian media.

Sources said journalists are not being taken to cover the drill because the government wants “to downplay the eventâ€

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Postby Tilak » 05 Sep 2007 17:13

X-Posted from Geo-Political Thread

China’s naval gazers
Arun Prakash
Wednesday, September 05, 2007

Beijing’s complaints on the navy’s current exercises are best answered by citing India’s national interests


[quote]When English Prime Minister Lord Palmerston said in the mid-19th century that “nations have no permanent friends or allies, but only permanent interestsâ€

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Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2007 18:24

That was a good piece by our former naval chief.Can one argue then that Chinese actions have brought about the "equal and opposite" reaction? Yes,in part.Chinese hegemonic attitudes and actions have had their effect in India and we are after years of sonambulism reacting to their little concealed ambitious adventurism with moves of our own,namely widening our circle of military exercises with others equally wary of China.Let us never forget that China has relentlessly armed Pak to the teeth with even nuclear weapons and their delivery systems (actions winked at by the US ,as they too woo Pak!). This indicates that for China,India is its greastest enemy,not the US-too far away to interfere successfully in China's Asian ambitions,not even Taiwan-just a hop away,Russia is too Euro-centric in its outlook,but India being the world's largest democracy and one of the fastest growing economies,rivals China in some aspects and is its greatest stumbling block to total Asian hegemony.India is a country that was looked up to with global admiration in the post-colonial era for its moral standing.China resented India's popularity and had to destroy India's international stature and reputation and did so in '62.

However,in the present context the current wars in the region and their extra-regional players with their intervention have alarmed the littoral and Asian states because of the synergy that has developed by the US and its key allies participating in these spats.For India to be seen to be tilting with the US's military bloc and its pro-active neo-imperialist ambitions,espeically to control the world's oil through regional alliances and military action is another matter.It worries many.The Chinese will now accelerate their gameplan for the region,as I've described elsewhere,using the terrorist state of Pak,its mischief maker the ISI and the Taliban,to further destabilise India and the region through terrorism and internal strife.

If the US really wants to play a meaningful role in the region,it should dismantle the TSP,which is the source of almost all global terrorism.It is a incomprehensible as to why the US winks at Pak's perfidy and still packs it with lethal arms that can only be used against India.It cannot run with the hares and hunt with the hounds anymore,it has to choose between India and Pak.At the moment it is brokering a scandalous marriage of (in)convenience between Benazir and the Bandicoot.Until it ditches Pak,such naval exercises will have symbolic value only and suspicion will remain in Indian minds about the US's true intentions.Indian can ,if it has the confidence to do so,play the role of a "Switzerland" in Asia,where it becomes the venue for the settlement of regional disputes,rather than becoming a participant in the mayhem.

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Postby vinayak_d » 05 Sep 2007 18:45

Philip these excercises are also meant to increase interoperability and send political messages. Chinki navy is already shitting bricks at the thought of US, India, Japan and Aussie nexus in the south east asia/ south china sea region. As far as I am concerned IN needs to really bolster up its forces and quietly set up a new fleet (Far eastern naval Fleet) for continued presence in SEA. Singapore would not mind it and lately indonesia is also comming around to our side. Malaysia will bitch and whine but they can't do much.


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Postby Naidu » 05 Sep 2007 22:43

Kakarat wrote:http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/070905-N-8591H-310.jpg


How come there are no whiners complaining about the dirty gloves, the scooter helmet and the grimy overalls of this crewman? Even the flag colours on his uniform are obscured! Does he get a pass since he's with the USN, and not the IN?

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Postby NRao » 05 Sep 2007 23:31

Naidu wrote:
Kakarat wrote:http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/070905-N-8591H-310.jpg


How come there are no whiners complaining about the dirty gloves, the scooter helmet and the grimy overalls of this crewman? Even the flag colours on his uniform are obscured! Does he get a pass since he's with the USN, and not the IN?


Did not find a good thread to post that complain in. Certainly this is not the thread to do so.

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Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2007 03:59

http://www.navy.mil/search/photolist.asp

Click on the above link, type Malabar in the search engine at the top right hand section and see the wonderful images that come up! Teen Jai to the US Navy!

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Postby Gaurav_S » 06 Sep 2007 04:29

Just wondering after looking few snaps there!

Can these Indian Navy officers clearly follow accent of those US counterparts and vice versa.

Infact, US angrezi is kind of corrupted English. Very well know for gobbling up few words.

Or is there any special training to avoid communication gap as well??

What is more, along with the US we have Aussies on board!!

:roll: :P :?:

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Postby negi » 06 Sep 2007 06:06

Naidu wrote:
Kakarat wrote:http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/070905-N-8591H-310.jpg


How come there are no whiners complaining about the dirty gloves, the scooter helmet and the grimy overalls of this crewman? Even the flag colours on his uniform are obscured! Does he get a pass since he's with the USN, and not the IN?

Naidu bhai to be honest those gloves are authentic leather ,which gets the charecteristic two tone shade due to sweat as for the flag on the uniform well afaik all uniforms on the field do away with their characteristic glitter and opt for embroided flag and insignia in khaki/olive green colour .

Albit helmet does look pretty ordinary but then man in the pic is a helo crew (not a fighter ace/gunship pilot with HMS and retractible visor ).

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Postby Vick » 06 Sep 2007 06:28

negi wrote:
Naidu wrote:
Kakarat wrote:http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/070905-N-8591H-310.jpg
Albit helmet does look pretty ordinary but then man in the pic is a helo crew (not a fighter ace/gunship pilot with HMS and retractible visor ).

The helmet might look ordinary to the untrained eye but one can clearly see that the crewman is a fan of the San Diego Chargers.

Now let's derail this thread by talking about the chances of the Chargers going all the way this year? You think LT is gonna have another monster year? :roll:

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Postby Vick » 06 Sep 2007 06:41

Image
The RSS Formidable would have made a nice template for the IN's P28s. Let's see where the P28s stack up, the Formidable has clearly set the bar for corvettes in the IOR.

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Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2007 07:06

Vick wrote:The RSS Formidable would have made a nice template for the IN's P28s. Let's see where the P28s stack up, the Formidable has clearly set the bar for corvettes in the IOR.


I would be interested in technical data to back this up, because this is the sort of statement made by salesmen to sell stuff to the Indian armed forces who then find that in tropical temperatures, salinity and humidity a lot of equipment does not work the way the makers planned.

A whole lot of redesigning and re-equipping is then required.

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Postby vinayak_d » 06 Sep 2007 07:06

gauravsurati wrote:Just wondering after looking few snaps there!

Can these Indian Navy officers clearly follow accent of those US counterparts and vice versa.

Infact, US angrezi is kind of corrupted English. Very well know for gobbling up few words.

Or is there any special training to avoid communication gap as well??

What is more, along with the US we have Aussies on board!!

:roll: :P :?:


Honestly, Its easier to understand americans than british with their silly queens english or local dialect.

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Postby Vick » 06 Sep 2007 07:09

shiv wrote:I would be interested in technical data to back this up, because this is the sort of statement made by salesmen to sell stuff to the Indian armed forces who then find that in tropical temperatures, salinity and humidity a lot of equipment does not work the way the makers planned.

A whole lot of redesigning and re-equipping is then required.

Shiv, just out of curiosity, what lattitudes do you think Singapore is located at? And what ocean(s) does its navy operate in? :P

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Postby Gaurav_S » 06 Sep 2007 07:19

vinayak_dangui wrote:
gauravsurati wrote:Just wondering after looking few snaps there!

Can these Indian Navy officers clearly follow accent of those US counterparts and vice versa.

Infact, US angrezi is kind of corrupted English. Very well know for gobbling up few words.

Or is there any special training to avoid communication gap as well??

What is more, along with the US we have Aussies on board!!

:roll: :P :?:


Honestly, Its easier to understand americans than british with their silly queens english or local dialect.


Vinayak, you are talking about slang which is used among Brits. This would only happen when they engage with Brit on the other side. Point is difference in accent with plain English.

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Postby negi » 06 Sep 2007 08:02

Vick wrote:The helmet might look ordinary to the untrained eye but one can clearly see that the crewman is a fan of the San Diego Chargers.

I for one was only trying to highlight the difference between helmets worn by an aircrew aboard a helo and a fighter/gunship ace , graphics and stickers notwithstanding.

Now let's derail this thread by talking about the chances of the Chargers going all the way this year? You think LT is gonna have another monster year? :roll:

Dont you think you are taking this too far ? BRF is blessed with competent mods to take care of the issue btw if you are so particular about the thread derailment then why not practice it first ? iow what have P28s got to do with the malabar exercise ? likewise should I start building my own scenarios with ATV and ADS just because Nimitz and SSN USS Chicago are participating in Malabar 2007.

Lastly fyi I just replied to an existing post so in first place I am not the one who is at fault.

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This should be in the humour section

Postby Bolasani » 06 Sep 2007 09:34

Image
Description: The Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Santa Fe (SS 763) and the guided missile destroyer USS Chaffey (DDG 90)!!!!! participate in Exercise Malabar 2005.

Now thats scary. :D

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Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2007 09:41

Are we being told about the nature of the exercises being carried out?With such a formidable collection of ships,subs and aircraft,these are war games of a sort.

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Postby Anantz » 06 Sep 2007 09:58

Well the photos of the Harriers from the link looks cool, they must definitely be the upgraded ones... It seems the Indian Navy has standardised mid air refuelling probes on its Harriers, but apart from buddy refuelling, can the sea king provide refuelling to these harriers on the high seas? It would be gr8 if they cld do tht.. The Harriers range wld definitely have been extended.. not to mention their loiter time.... :)

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Postby krishnan » 06 Sep 2007 15:51


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Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2007 15:59

DDG 90 looks pretty stealthy using non-RCS organic material(wood), lean manning (5 visible) and submerged vl tubes

could be template for PLANs Type2008 DDG to be sold to PN

the Formidable's stealthy shaping - it doesnt matter whether france or
spore - its certainly quite low-RCS compared to the (ahem) clutter in
the back. Heracles and Aster15 is a bit "weak" though compared to
Empar + Aster30 or MF-star-NG + Barak8

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Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2007 16:08

a decent one:- all three carriers led by a SSN

http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/ ... 6R-352.jpg

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Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2007 16:13

Vick wrote:
shiv wrote:I would be interested in technical data to back this up, because this is the sort of statement made by salesmen to sell stuff to the Indian armed forces who then find that in tropical temperatures, salinity and humidity a lot of equipment does not work the way the makers planned.

A whole lot of redesigning and re-equipping is then required.

Shiv, just out of curiosity, what lattitudes do you think Singapore is located at? And what ocean(s) does its navy operate in? :P


I have no idea whatsoever. I just want to know why that ship is a template for the Indian Navy. Do you happen to know?

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Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2007 16:30

shiv wrote:I have no idea whatsoever. I just want to know why that ship is a template for the Indian Navy. Do you happen to know?


If you looked through BR's Navy pages, you would have realised that adopting a stealth design for the IN's future surface combatants is the path that the IN is taking.

This is Project 17, Shivalik Class. DCNS of France is involved in the project overseeing signature management.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ect17f.jpg

Then there is Project 17A, which will be along the French La Fayette design and will adopt a number of features from Project 17.

Then also there is Project 28, another ship that has considerable more stealth features than any other corvette in Indian Naval history.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ect28b.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ect28c.jpg

*The P28 corvette also has designs adopted from the P17 frigate.

The Formidable Class among others is one of the many 'new' ship designs that the Indian Navy studied. Every Russian surface combatant that the Indian Navy bought had to go through considerable design changes to operate in Indian Navy climates and even then, they were not 100% successful (i.e. the INS Andamans episode).

And by the way, the Formidable Class is built by DCNS of France....the same company that built the La Fayette Class for the French Navy. They are one and the same in terms of stealth design, although they are not similar in shape. And the P17A is being built along the lines of the La Fayette design.
Last edited by Rakesh on 06 Sep 2007 16:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2007 16:38

Rakesh, the Lafayette is too small for P17A which must face a heavier threat environment. word on street was the "improved" FREMM design was frontrunner but for all we know, some other Spanish or Italian design could also figure.

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Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2007 16:47

Singha, I am not saying that the La Fayette (3600 tons full load) will be bigger than the P17A (~5000 tons full load) but the design philosophy will be the same. DCNS served as consultants on both the P17 and P28 vessels.

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Postby Avid » 06 Sep 2007 17:09

From: http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=50416

Indian naval and air force personnel listen to a brief in the ready room aboard nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (CVN 68 )


This is the first reference to IAF role in the exercise. Can someone comment? Perhaps I missed a reference to IAF earlier.

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Postby Surya » 06 Sep 2007 17:17

All Vick is saying if the Singaporean ship performs better the navy needs to accelerate its projects to build ships of comparable charateristics.

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Postby tsarkar » 06 Sep 2007 17:53

http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/ ... 2D-140.jpg

Elta EL/L-8212 pod. 8212 is the pod and 8222 is the internal system.

Rakesh - you can use the following link to update the Sea Harrier, Jaguar, MiG-21 & MiG-27 pages.

http://www.israelaerospace.com/ELTA.asp ... 17&lang=en

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Postby tsarkar » 06 Sep 2007 18:02

Avid - Officers of IAF Maritime Air Operations based out of Mumbai are regularly deployed on ships to coordinate operations since pre independence days. This fellow wears a Jaguar patch - probably deputed from No. 6
Last edited by tsarkar on 06 Sep 2007 18:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2007 18:15

A letter to major European and Russian buliders has been sent by the GOI inviting proposals from them to refine design/build our std.frigate class (P-17A?),with one or two frigates first built abroad and the rest in India.This is probably due to the galloping developments in stealth and conformal sensor systems revolutionising the architecture of contemporary naval warships.The British "skunk works" BMT design group have come out with some revolutionary designs for subs and "pentamaran" surface ships.

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Postby Raman » 06 Sep 2007 22:03

Avid wrote:From: http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=50416

Indian naval and air force personnel listen to a brief in the ready room aboard nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (CVN 68 )


This is the first reference to IAF role in the exercise. Can someone comment? Perhaps I missed a reference to IAF earlier.


One can see a gentleman who seems to be an officer from No.6 "Dragons" there ...

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Postby Shankar » 06 Sep 2007 22:05

I think IAF is participating in a big way in this exercise .Day before at Lohegaon was held up for 2 hrs as 3 sukhois followed by two more sukhois and lone jaguar took off in quick sequence and headed for south easternly direction.The pilot said delay due closure of air space because of unscheduled exercise.tHE Sukhois were carrying winf tip R-73 dummy /training rounds black stripes on white background I think.

Guessing the five sukhois three were the air superiority role and two sukhois and jaguar which followed on in anti ship mission . Three came back after 90 minutes and the other two and jaguar much later . Maybe we tried a multi axis strike against Nimitz group.All the chaiwalas are tight lipped so me on aguessing game -your views?

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Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2007 22:15

3 strike a/c and 3 escorts attacking 2 CVNs and around 6 SM2 equipped cruisers/ddg would be a rather paltry test.

but it would be a good test against the JMSDF, SN and Aus.

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Postby Shankar » 06 Sep 2007 23:22

well it depends on how close the sukhois could get to the carrier group
like where they within launch range of a pair of brahmos each say less than 250 kms before being detected and shot by the sm2/3 or rather were they being able to penetrate the aegis screen in ultra low flight profile and then why a single jaguar accompanied the sukhois what if a nuclear strike with a low flying aircraft was being practiced with the 3 sukhois acting escorts and two subsequent sukhois acting as red herring strike aircraft and the real strike being carrier out with a sub kiloton yield jaguar.

what I found un usal was the lone jaguar with a large center line load may be that simulated a free fall nuke -point is whether it suceeded

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Postby Shankar » 06 Sep 2007 23:30

another scenario

1st wave of 3 sukhois strieks from south west
2nd wave of 2 sukhois strike from north east

each group firing 2 brahmos each almost simultaneously that is almost 10 supersonic missiles being launched with a flight time of few minutes.While the aegis is busy prioritizing threats and launching missile say 4 per target since they are fast moving sea skimming type the lone jaguar goes straight for the capital ship ,comes out of coast line along the wave tops and climbs to lob toss profile ,releases a single nuke and loops back and out of the blast zone.

A scaled down saturation attack from a nuke armed bandit country .

China uses sukhois and the USN might want to know if their area defense system works when faced with unconventional threat and tactics


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