IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4441
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby putnanja » 23 Aug 2008 02:33

Nevada war games in crucial phase

Nevada war games in crucial phase

Sandeep Dikshit

Indian Air Force taking part for the first time in ‘Exercise Red Flag’



IN ACTION: Indian Air Force’s IL-78 mid-air refueller and a Sukhoi Su-30 fighter flying alongside a pair of USAF F-16 and F-15 during the Red Flag exercise at Nevada in the U.S. on Wednesday. - PHOTO: PTI

NEW DELHI: The multinational air exercise ‘Exercise Red Flag’ at the Nellis base of the U.S Air Force in Nevada entered its crucial phase following the crawl, walk and run pattern of exercising.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is participating with eight Su-30 fighters, two Il-78s (mid air refuellers), an Il-76 and 247 air warriors. This is the first time the IAF has been invited to one version of the Red Flag exercise, originally a Cold War exercise but now expanded to include the US’ new-found friends and allies.

During this phase of the exercise, a present-day air campaign is replicated, in which the opposition forces, or the ‘aggressors’ F16s and F15s, are the air-to-air and air-to-ground threats to the Blue Land and its forces. Surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) along with long and short-range quick reaction missiles are deployed to neutralise the friendly Blue Forces.

The Red Land always keeps shifting their SAM sites making it difficult for the Blue Forces.

Owing to these facts, the Blue Forces have to typically carry out certain missions, in which they sanitise the air space first by removing or eliminating the enemy airfields, destroying the aircraft and SAM sites. These tasks are carried out by ‘strike packages’ comprising the IAF’s Su-30s flying with the U.S. Air Force F15s and F16s, ‘Prowlers’ of the U.S. Navy, Rafales of the French Air Force and F15s of the Korean Air Force.

Once the air space is sanitised the Blue Forces’ strike package goes about its task in which they are assisted by KC-135 and Il-178 tankers, AWACS of the USAF and the Compass Call (a USAF Boeing aircraft used for electronic warfare).

An interesting aspect of the air war between the Red and the Blue Forces is that the aggressors use all possible means to gather intelligence from the Blue Forces. This they use against the Blue Forces.

It is imperative on the part of the Blue Force personnel not to give away any information to unauthorised person as he or she could be a Red ‘spy.’

The success of the missions in these air campaigns is the situational awareness of all persons involved. Hence network-centric operations are the pivots.

The main challenge during the exercise for the IAF has been to adapt to the USAF network and also carry out ‘Stand Alone’ tasks simultaneously.

The young IAF pilots (average age late 20s) have done this with dexterity.

Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vick » 23 Aug 2008 03:03

Found at AFMF that there is a nearly complete S-300P SAM system set up in Nevada for USAF to play tag with during Red Flag. I guess S-300P system is compromised, at least to a good degree.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/08/us- ... sites.html

Also, regarding the Garuds, it has been noted that they are also tasked with CSAR duties. Could a purchase of a PAVE HAWK type platform be far behind?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby SaiK » 23 Aug 2008 03:49

An interesting aspect of the air war between the Red and the Blue Forces is that the aggressors use all possible means to gather intelligence from the Blue Forces. This they use against the Blue Forces.

It is imperative on the part of the Blue Force personnel not to give away any information to unauthorised person as he or she could be a Red ‘spy.

Interesting indeed.. MKI signature will be well documented, and perhaps having those bars radar replaced with a lesser sensitive one should help giving a different blue read., else we could be seeing many red spies having a very big smile!.

A Sharma
BRFite
Posts: 1144
Joined: 20 May 2003 11:31

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby A Sharma » 24 Aug 2008 02:21

IAF SOFTWARE EXPERTS MAKE Su30MKIs MORE VERSATILE

Despite scorching heat and average tarmac temperatures above 50 degrees Celsius during flying hours, IAF technicians ensured a very high availability of aircraft for all exercise related requirements, during exercise Red Flag at Air Force base, Nevada, USA. The exercise concludes its operations on 23 Aug 08.

During extreme heat conditions there is a tendency of the flying machines to develop snags such as leaks in hydraulic systems, engine oil, gear box etc. The performance of avionics system also becomes erratic as integrated circuits develop problems in extreme heat conditions. However due to proper planning and hard work of IAF technicians, aircraft serviceability was kept high at all times.

IAF technicians worked on the tarmac with usual motivation baring extreme heat and dehydrating conditions. Even touching the hot metal surface of the aircraft without proper protection is near impossible.

Appreciating the IAF technicians Col. Corey, Maintenance Commander of USAF base Nellis said "IAF has maintained amazing serviceability rate in a sustained manner during the entire exercise. This is because of in-depth planning, knowledge and focused approach of the maintainers." Wg Cdr JD Kapoor, Senior Engineering Officer of 20 Sqn said that IAF technical practices and systems are comprehensive and well defined and meticulous adherence to these have ensured high tarmac availability that allowed aircrews to perform their missions. He further added "Intelligence and out of the box thinking of the technicians of the unit has earned us praise from all quarters".

The IAF software experts from Bangalore based Software Development Institute (SDI,AF) indigenously developed software patches to make Su30MKI avionics compatible with NATO operational philosophy. This wholly indigenous effort has saved valuable foreign exchange to the Indian exchequer. Wg Cdr JS Gavankar, Software Engineer from SDI presently with the contingent at AF base Nellis explained "The SDI software has made the Su30MKI platform more versatile and compatible with other Air Forces”, the avionics software developed by SDI has reduced the cockpit workload and has assisted in increasing the Pilots situational awareness multifold" said Wg Cdr J Singh, Flt Cdr 20 Sqn.

Ved
BRFite
Posts: 154
Joined: 08 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Ved » 24 Aug 2008 09:43

So its over! Well done, by all accounts.

I'm sure our boys are looking forward to being home, after a brief 3 day stop at Saudi Arabia for a mini exercise with those guys.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10016
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sum » 24 Aug 2008 11:13

But, the Saudis are the biggest benefactors/Mai-baaps of the Pakis...... :-?
Do we even have a working relationship with them considering half of their AF must be staffed with Paki pilots?

Maybe, we are trying get the message of the might of the Su-30 across to the Pakis through the Saudis!!! :twisted:

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16935
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 24 Aug 2008 11:20

sum wrote:But, the Saudis are the biggest benefactors/Mai-baaps of the Pakis...... :-?
Do we even have a working relationship with them considering half of their AF must be staffed with Paki pilots?

Maybe, we are trying get the message of the might of the Su-30 across to the Pakis through the Saudis!!! :twisted:

are you sure most KSA military men are pakis. I thought most of them are/were ex US forces.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10016
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sum » 24 Aug 2008 11:29

IIRC, Paki pilots go on deputation to KSA to staff their squadrons and the SSG guards the royals....

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16935
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 24 Aug 2008 11:39

sum wrote:IIRC, Paki pilots go on deputation to KSA to staff their squadrons and the SSG guards the royals....

remember reading some reports that most of those were nothing more than urban legends and as much as 80% of the technically competent fraction of KSA military personnel comprises of americans. unfortunately can't seem to locate it now.

added later: the AWACS was most certainly operated by US personnel at some time or the other.
_____________________________________________________________________

edit: sorry for the OT post.

this is a good overview of KSA foreign military personnel, a bit dated tho'.
http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/saudimilbook_02.pdf
It formerly had some 10,000 Pakistani troops to fill out one brigade (the 12th Armored Brigade) at Tabuk.
These Pakistani forces left the Kingdom in 1988 and 1989.

Moreover, the Kingdom has not had good experiences in trying to use Arab and Islamic forces to supplement its own. The countries involved have invariably had political and economic agendas that have conflicted with those of Saudi Arabia and their forces have probed to be ineffective and/or unreliable. Efforts to use Jordanian contract officers led to defections and political problems in the 1950s and 1960s. Pakistani forces serving in the army refused to deploy as requested during the Iran-Iraq War, and no Pakistani battalion-level forces have existed in the Saudi army since that time.

All in all, I think current stories about paki pilots staffing KSAF jets is more fiction than fact.

Ved
BRFite
Posts: 154
Joined: 08 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Ved » 24 Aug 2008 13:25

Ved wrote:So its over! Well done, by all accounts.

I'm sure our boys are looking forward to being home, after a brief 3 day stop at Saudi Arabia for a mini exercise with those guys.


Sorry - I meant UAE!! :oops:

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10016
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sum » 24 Aug 2008 14:12

Sorry - I meant UAE!! :oops:

Now, thats more understandable....

For heavens sake, hope that the IAF crew also have a close look at the UAEAF M-2000-9s and report back about them in glowing terms so that we make a move towards acquiring them when the UAE switches over to the rafael...

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16935
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 24 Aug 2008 15:22

rafale, you mean. rafael is the israeli arms manufacturer.


Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Lalmohan » 25 Aug 2008 00:42

a number of middle east air forces have pakistani pilots... UAE may well be one of them

ranganathan
BRFite
Posts: 277
Joined: 06 Feb 2008 23:14

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby ranganathan » 25 Aug 2008 01:05

I don't think Indian armed forces do any serious exercise with arab armed forces except maybe Oman. This will probably be equivalent of the Naval Passex.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16935
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 25 Aug 2008 01:15

Lalmohan wrote:a number of middle east air forces have pakistani pilots... UAE may well be one of them

Lalmohan, that certainly used to be the case, but AFAIK the situation has changed now.

*gulf countries have more competent personnel from their own population than they did previously.(many not good enough by world standards but still better than what they used to have)
*level of trust in paki personnel has gone down considerably in recent years from the heady days of muslim unity and all that. see the KSA's case, for example in my post above.
*the pro west countries are more comfortable fielding operators from countries which originally designed the equipments.

p.s. IIRC, lately, all news of paki pilots in gulf air forces have come from one source only, the paki def sites.

clay
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 35
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 15:46
Location: Kuwait
Contact:

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby clay » 25 Aug 2008 05:01

US wants IAF to be part of wargames on regular basis

Impressed with the combat skills of IAF top-gun pilots flying Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, IL-78 mid-air refuellers and IL-76 heavy-lift aircraft, the US would like IAF to take part in the "Red Flag" wargames on a regular basis.

"IAF is a world-class air force, with great aircraft and great leadership. It's a great training opportunity for USAF and IAF to integrate our assets in a training environment. We would like to have IAF here as a regular participant," said Captain Marcus 'Spike' Wilson, leader of American F-15s and F-16s, during the ongoing exercise at Nellis US Air Force base in Nevada.


complete artcle in link.


Regds, Clay

kedar.karmarkar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 99
Joined: 05 Aug 2008 22:50
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby kedar.karmarkar » 25 Aug 2008 07:37

The IAF maintainers have really done a very splendid and professional job in RF. The performance of an air force in RF-N is not only measured by the combat flying, but also the associated support elements which enable the pilots to fly the aircraft. In scorching heat (I was there on 13th and 14th, the temp on the tarmac was around 130-140F) these guys did an amazing job. Everyday I was there, I guess there was 100% availability of the Su's - the maintainers worked round the clock operating in two shifts, to keep the a/c serviceable for the next day's flight. On one occasion, when a tire burst happened they changed the wheel on the runway, and cleared the runway in less than 20-25 mins. The USAF maintainer folks were mightily impressed with our maintainers. Way to go, folks!! Three cheers for them.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Aug 2008 08:41

Hi Kedar,

Your shots on SmugMug were fantastic! Do you happen to have the EXIF data as well, or did I just miss them?

Its really ashame there are only going to be less than 280 Su-30MKI planned. The rest of the world would sh!t in their pants if the IAF had nearly 3000 Su-30MKI.

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Dmurphy » 25 Aug 2008 09:12

Mort Walker wrote:Its really ashame there are only going to be less than 280 Su-30MKI planned. The rest of the world would sh!t in their pants if the IAF had nearly 3000 Su-30MKI.


3000 Sukhois! yeah, right!

Then how about having a "Sukhoi Ministry" to oversee their development. :rotfl:
God, how i love to set my mind free.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16935
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 25 Aug 2008 09:22

:rotfl: :rotfl: how about 1 mn brahmos, 2 mn astras , 0.5 mn KS-172 and a tankful of vodka to wash these down ??

Misraji
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 11:53
Location: USA

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Misraji » 25 Aug 2008 10:13

Rahul M wrote::rotfl: :rotfl: how about 1 mn brahmos, 2 mn astras , 0.5 mn KS-172 and a tankful of vodka to wash these down ??


It would probably be cheaper to buy entire Russian Mil-Industry complex, you know ??? ..... :mrgreen:

Regards,
Ashish.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Aug 2008 10:52

You laugh, but having a few thousand fighter A/C for a country that will by 2018-2020 have a $4 trillion GDP is not inconceivable. Also, who says you have to buy the whole thing lock-stock-and-barrel from those crazy Russians. HAL, with a few ruski parts and domestic industries, if adequately funded, could crank them out like pappads.

The big problem with most Indians is not to think big and question "why can't it be this way?".

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10016
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sum » 25 Aug 2008 11:49

But, with already looming pilot shortage, 6000 pilots/WSOs(only for the flying and not even the backups) for the 3000 sukhois will be tough to find as more and more sectors get lucrative ....

Misraji
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 11:53
Location: USA

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Misraji » 25 Aug 2008 11:51

Mort Walker wrote:You laugh, but having a few thousand fighter A/C for a country that will by 2018-2020 have a $4 trillion GDP is not inconceivable. Also, who says you have to buy the whole thing lock-stock-and-barrel from those crazy Russians. HAL, with a few ruski parts and domestic industries, if adequately funded, could crank them out like pappads.

The big problem with most Indians is not to think big and question "why can't it be this way?".


Come now, Mort Walker .... You are not serious!! .... Where can we even begin on why this is infeasible??

I always considered myself a thorough jingo, but this has been a humbling experience!!!! .... :mrgreen:

Regards,
Ashish.

PS: Not thinking big is one thing ... Getting carried away is another ....

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1644
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Sid » 25 Aug 2008 13:03

sum wrote:But, with already looming pilot shortage, 6000 pilots/WSOs(only for the flying and not even the backups) for the 3000 sukhois will be tough to find as more and more sectors get lucrative ....


even if you get 6000 pilots, you will still need "super CNG kits" to fly these gas guzzlers :mrgreen:

Even experience from red-flag ex. didn't came cheap. Although it provided huge training experience to our pilots, we should build on this training and create our own red-flag thingi.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 25 Aug 2008 13:30

it is being addressed in Kalaikunda. but we lack the vast desolate areas of the US southwest to
play games in. out tacde and fighter schools are spread in places like gwalior, bidar, jamnagar
but weapons ranges in pokhran and so on. germans and singaporeans have a permanent base
in Nellis. for us it has to be over the bay of bengal.

a fleet of 1000 modern fixed wing a/c is desirable by 2025. out of this 150 trainers and 250
transport a/c would take out 400. of the remaining 600 there could be 200:200:200 ratio of
light: medium: heavy

100 strategic airlifters and 150 tactical.
75 - basic, 75 - hawkish.

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3080
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rony » 26 Aug 2008 04:13

Not being paranoid but hope the IAF did take measures to avoid things like these

U.S. Spying on Its Pals?
When the Indian Air Force sent six Su-30MKI Flankers and a couple of Il-78MKI Midas tankers to RAF Waddington [air base] on June 28 [for a two-week exercise], the U.S. and U.K. airborne intelligence agencies were provided with a major coup. It gave them a chance to learn more about the radar frequencies of one of the most feared combat aircraft in the world -- even if it meant "eavesdropping" on their Indian friends.

The Indians have a reputation for paranoia (in this case justified), so the Su-30s weren't allowed to use their radars during the mock battles, instead flying only close-range, visual dogfights. But radars in standby mode still radiate, so unless the radars were completely switched off at all times before, during and after the exercise, it's likely that the U.S. and Great Britain scored some seriously valuable intel.

ranganathan
BRFite
Posts: 277
Joined: 06 Feb 2008 23:14

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby ranganathan » 26 Aug 2008 04:21

Singha wrote:a fleet of 1000 modern fixed wing a/c is desirable by 2025. out of this 150 trainers and 250
transport a/c would take out 400. of the remaining 600 there could be 200:200:200 ratio of
light: medium: heavy

100 strategic airlifters and 150 tactical.
75 - basic, 75 - hawkish.


Too small for a country the size of India. IAF needs atleast 750 fighters (250 (MKI)+200(Rafale :roll: :(( )+300 LCA. Atleast 250 transport divided into Heavy(IL-76), Med (MRTA), light (An-32 replacement RTA based) and dornier replacement in the form of Saras and Saras-S. 50 force multipliers for AWACS, Refuellers, ELINT etc etc. 500 trainers (140 stage-1+200 IJT+ 100 Hawk+ 60 LIFT) and 600-700 odd choppers and 100 odd HALE/MALE UAV's.

Sigh: If not enough this jingo would also recommend 50 dedicated bombers Tu-22m3 types :wink:

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Aug 2008 06:59

Well, 3000 Su-30MKI is a tongue-in-cheek comment, but 60-80 squadrons of the Su-30MKI would also cause squishy chaadis too. Its enough to damage chinni CCC infrastructure during hostilities. Strength respects strength.

Pilot shortage you say? A billion+ people with nearly 400 million college graduates and you can't train enough pilots? I guess that's a valid argument if you think its fine for a billion+ people to only win 3 medals at the summer Olympics?

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2223
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vivek K » 26 Aug 2008 07:32

The problem with India is - thinking small and taking a zillion years to build up even to the small thinking. Then imagining that a foreign power will help us become a great power!

Though not quite 3000, but what stops us from buying 400-500 MKIs? Why don't we buy 200 GE engine (instead of buying small quantities in batches) to make large nos of LCAs that can have engine upgrades as MLUs when the GTRE/HAL come up with an alternate? And what is holding us up from buying the 126 MRCAs? If there was an urgency we would have at least a squadron strength purchased in so many years that we have been talking about it.

We need to fight and win against a combined Chicom and Puki attack. Therefore instead of sitting around counting pennies, we need to place orders and get the equipment delivered.

JaiS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2190
Joined: 01 Mar 2003 12:31
Location: JPEG-jingostan
Contact:

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby JaiS » 26 Aug 2008 07:54

Gentlemen, let's continue discussing Red Flag and have tangential discussions elsewhere.

Indian Advanced Su-30MKIs Come to USA

By David A. Fulghum davef@aviationweek.com


American, French and South Korean aircrews are getting a close look at one of the world's fabled aircraft - the Indian air force's Su-30MKI strike fighter.

An Indian air force group of 50 pilots and weapon systems officers - flying eight Su-30MKIs, two Il-78 tankers and an Il-76 transport - are just finishing a month-long deployment to the United States with a training cycle at the latest, annual Red Flag aerial combat excercises based at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.

One long-time military analyst mused to Aviation Week that the event might provide insight, although it was no certainty. "I'll bet your [intelligence] boys hovered up every little squiggly amp from BARS. [Yet] sometimes the [radar's] training mode is just a software package that emulates the radar transmissions, but it's actually not emitting."

Indeed, to observers' dismay, and no doubt to that of the U.S. intelligence community, the IAF flew with a number of handicaps, some of them self-imposed, some not.

Their powerful Russian-made radar was, in fact, emitting, says Choudhry, but operating only in the training mode which limited all its range and spectrum of capabilities. In addition, the IAF wasn't allowed to use chaff and flares to avoid being targeted by surface-to-air missiles nor did its aircraft have the common data link. CDL brings a flow of targeting information into the cockpit displays that improves the accuracy and speed of data transfer and eliminates the need for most communications. The Indian air crews had to rely on voice communications which slowed the process and limited situational awareness.

Despite its limitations, the Su-30MKI's radar was able enough to allow the IAF's Sukhois to participate in a beyond-visual-range fight with U.S. aggressor aircraft carrying simulated AA-10C air-to-air missiles. Because there were so many foreign aircraft capable of offensive counter-air/escort missions (including French Rafales and South Korean F-15Ks), the Sukhois are flying fewer air-to-air missions than Indian team members had hoped, Choudhry says.


"It was almost what we expected," Choudhry says. "Because we couldn't use our chaff and flares, when we were targeted by SAMs we were shot down. And there was no picture in the cockpit to help our situational awareness so the workload on the [aircrews] was very high." Nonetheless, "We came a long way. We trained hard. And the degree of difficulty was not unexpected."

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5811
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Dileep » 26 Aug 2008 09:48

The 'training mode' can have totally different emission characteristics than the military mode. Given the notorious paranoia we all have, I wouldn't worry too much about the radars transmitting.

Was the 'no chaff and flare' limit self imposed, or imposed by the 'environmental concerns of the USAF? Was the concern about the chaff/flare having distinguishable signatures that could be filtered out if sufficient data is available.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 26 Aug 2008 09:53

I ams sure unkil can steal a box of russian flares without doing r&d on our flares.
unkil is clumsy and big but not inept.

gauravjkale
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 29 May 2007 15:32
Location: Mumbai

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby gauravjkale » 26 Aug 2008 09:57

the only thing that we are reading is that our birds were shot down by SAMS and the maintenance crew were par excellence. But how did they fared against the others in air to air and and other air to ground missions???

Vishnu
BRFite
Posts: 272
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vishnu » 26 Aug 2008 11:44

Hi Guys ... I will let you know the broadcast date and time of my documentary soon ... but just so that we are all clear ... the Indian Air Force did outstandingly well in these exercises. Everything that has been posted is accurate so far and the focus on maintenance is important. In temperatures of more than 47 degrees centigrade ... Sukhois kept rolling out with very few having to abort their missions. The availability of the jets was higher than both the French and the South Korean Air Forces.

As far as air to air performances are concerned ... can I just say our pilots did splendidly. Yes, there were instances when they were shot down ... but there were days when they were number one in the air intercepts charts. And yes, there was one evening when the Sukhois shot down more than a dozen jets in a single evening mission but before we all get too excited ... I think its important to point out the following:

1. Sukhois were not flying independently. They were flying as part of a team.
2. Teams were broken down for specific roles. Missions were accomplished if the objective was carried out ... not necessarily because a fighter-jock bagged an F-15 that evening.
3. The de-brief process is singularly professional. Pilots are told if they did something right and got something wrong. There is no massive cheer for pilots who shot down other jets.
4. There were significant numbers of EW E6 Prowler jets participating in the exercises.
5. Chaff and Flare deployment was a problem for the IAF because of objections ... I think ... from the FAA. The IAF doesn't have training flares/chaff which are less intense. I believe they were trying to resolve this by imposing height restrictions for flare/chaff deployment though I do not know if that eventually worked out.
6. Most air to air engagements were BVR ... the use of the IRST was negated.
7. The Garuds are shaping up nicely. They were paradropped into areas where they simulated pilot rescue missions. They are being trained to the same standards as our SFs, MARCOS etc though are yet to be fully equipped.
8. The fully loaded Il-78s pretty much took the entire length of the runway to take off in the super hot conditions.

Cheers
Vishnu

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5030
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Kartik » 26 Aug 2008 12:15

Vishnu, if the MKIs did so well, and mostly in BVR combat, how was it possible without them having a NATO standard Datalink or without the Bars being used in anything but the training mode?

I'm puzzled because no reports clearly tell how the IAF's MKIs actually got their targeting info without the Bars operating, unless their IRSTs are so capable that they're passively detecting targets from BVR range itself. and, what aircraft did they manage to shoot down ? any Rafales and F-15Ks ? did they even operate against the Su-30s in any missions or was it only the Aggressor squadrons of the USAF with their older block F-16s and F-15s ? what were the impressions of the IAF pilots of the Rafale?

soo many questions that you've got to answer man ! :D

Vishnu
BRFite
Posts: 272
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vishnu » 26 Aug 2008 13:38

Hi Kartik ... the IAF Sukhois dont have a Link 16 system. They operated on the basis of voice commands.
The Bars radar has a pretty robust training range enough anyway for the Sukhois to be targeting F-15 and F-16 aggressor jets flying `Soviet' style. The Rafales flew mostly with the IAF. There was no real assessment done on its merits though some commented on its relatively poor maintainability though that had more to do with a lack of available spares.

Thanks

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 26 Aug 2008 13:51

did the missions involve dropping live ordnance like bombs and LGBs on targets at night?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 26 Aug 2008 13:54

Telegraph...first mention of a Bars 2 radar. maybe the baseline Bars got a
upgrade with the MK3 sukhois in terms of improved SAR sw and faster processing.

Flying blind, Sukhois ‘shot’
SUJAN DUTTA

New Delhi, Aug. 22: Flying near-blind in the US, the Indian Air Force’s frontline Sukhoi 30Mki fighters have been “shot” down in missions at the Red Flag wargames, the toughest combat aircraft exercise that the US hosts for its allies.

The Russian-made Sukhoi 30Mkis have been asked to fly in the exercise only after switching off a sophisticated radar and without recourse to a key shield against surface-to-air missiles, a senior air force officer said. The exercise in which the IAF is participating for the first time entered its most complex phase today.

“Shooting down” or getting “shot down” must necessarily take place in a wargame. In 2003, US Air Force’s (USAF) F-15 Tomcat aircraft participating in an exercise out of Gwalior in India were similarly “shot down”.

Despite being hamstrung at the Red Flag games, the IAF contingent was getting invaluable training as part of a “Blue force” tasked to defend its territory against an aggressor “Red force” in the Nevada desert. The range over which the exercise is taking place has mock-ups of several targets that are mostly military establishments, air force spokesman Wing Commander Mahesh Upasani, who is with the contingent, told The Telegraph from the Nellis air force base.

The IAF is participating with eight Su-30s, two IL-78s (mid-air refuellers), an IL-76 (heavy lift transporters) and 247 men led by Group Captain D. Chaudhary. Frontline aircraft from the air forces of South Korea and France and, of course, the US are engaged both with the IAF and against it in the drills.

“Captain Marcus ‘Spike’ Wilson of the USAF Aggressors in his appreciation of the IAF has said the IAF is a world-class air force with great aircraft and great leadership,” said Upasani.

The IAF Sukhois have been asked not to show the full capacity of their BARS II radar so that their signatures may not be recorded
.


Return to “Military Exercises Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest