IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 26 Aug 2008 15:50

Hi ... I will have a word with Sujan. While he is correct in what he writes ... I disagree with his emphasis.
These exercises went off extremely well for the Indian Air Force. The Sukhois were not flying blind at all. In the type of scenarios that the jets were deployed ... and given the rigidity of Red Flag engagement rules ... there were bound to be losses ... and all sides participating lost jets which were asked to leave the area of operations if they were shot down.

This was a great great opportunity for the Indian Air Force to operate in a realistic theatre of operations. The ground targets were very realistic. Whats more ... this was a great chance to work within a large force engagement. There were more than a dozen jets in the air at once. Also ... unlike in the past ... the bulk of participating IAF pilots were young jocks ... some just Flight Lieutenants and by and large they performed very well.

I think ... without doubt ... these exercises prove that the IAF is right there among the best operators ...

I was among the first to look at joint exercises as an us versus them scenario in the past. The Americans don't see it at all that way. They have now accepted that they are dealing with a professional operator. They are genuinely curious about the Sukhoi 30 and yes, the IAF was careful in operating the jet with restricted settings. Someone told me they were operating at 70 per cent of the capability of the jet but this was a general statement ...

Cheers

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 26 Aug 2008 17:10

Mort Walker wrote:Well, 3000 Su-30MKI is a tongue-in-cheek comment, but 60-80 squadrons of the Su-30MKI would also cause squishy chaadis too. Its enough to damage chinni CCC infrastructure during hostilities. Strength respects strength.

Pilot shortage you say? A billion+ people with nearly 400 million college graduates and you can't train enough pilots? I guess that's a valid argument if you think its fine for a billion+ people to only win 3 medals at the summer Olympics?

I would say we need to have 500 of all 3 types. 500 MKI , 500 MRCA, 500 LCA. Then we have enough to kick both Panda and Pig at the same time.

Dhanush · Post by **Dhanush** » 26 Aug 2008 17:18

Are Su-30MKI being spooked in US?

Some new developments reported in Shiv Aroor's blog
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/08/ia ... nt-on.html

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 26 Aug 2008 17:32

Quick Q, I thought MKI's had datalink? May not be Link 16 but datalink for sure, otherwise what's the point of saying you are a mini-awac if you can't transpond the data.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 26 Aug 2008 17:40

MukulMohanty wrote:Quick Q, I thought MKI's had datalink? May not be Link 16 but datalink for sure, otherwise what's the point of saying you are a mini-awac if you can't transpond the data.

AFAIK the MKI doesnt have a dedicated digital link like the link 16 used by Unkil and allies. It does however have a radio relay system/datalink under which one MKI can radiate and share the info with others who are flying silent....just my 2 cents.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 26 Aug 2008 17:46

Vishnu wrote:and given the rigidity of Red Flag engagement rules ... there were bound to be losses ... and all sides participating lost jets which were asked to leave the area of operations if they were shot down.

Thanks a lot Vishnu. One question though. if disclosable then how many MKIs we lost?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 26 Aug 2008 18:00

Anand Barve wrote:
MukulMohanty wrote:Quick Q, I thought MKI's had datalink? May not be Link 16 but datalink for sure, otherwise what's the point of saying you are a mini-awac if you can't transpond the data.
AFAIK the MKI doesnt have a dedicated digital link like the link 16 used by Unkil and allies. It does however have a radio relay system/datalink under which one MKI can radiate and share the info with others who are flying silent....just my 2 cents.

Su-30K had TKS-2/R-098(Tipovyi Kompleks Svyazi) Intra Flight Data Link (IFDL).

Su-30MKI has tactical information data link system (TIDLS) (model i am not sure of??).

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Aug 2008 18:00

abhijitm wrote:
Vishnu wrote:and given the rigidity of Red Flag engagement rules ... there were bound to be losses ... and all sides participating lost jets which were asked to leave the area of operations if they were shot down.
Thanks a lot Vishnu. One question though. if disclosable then how many MKIs we lost?

the answer to this question could very easily be taken out of context... all depends on the exercise parameters, etc., etc. and a pure number will not be an accurate reflection of the reality

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 26 Aug 2008 18:02

You're right, voice and limited data.

INCOM-1210A http://www.hal-india.com/AvionicsHyd/Products.asp

http://polyot.atnn.ru/production.phtml

However using them would have exposed frequencies and encryption to ELINT and consequently jamming that is smarter after DRFM came into play

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 26 Aug 2008 19:04

This Vegas trip will surely set the cash registers ringing.Vayu Bhawan must already be getting its shopping list ready.Our folks will now say...Nellis was heaven...Gwalior Sucks.!!!We want new stuff...brand new US Goods...and we want our own Lal Jhanda...!!!

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 26 Aug 2008 19:07

The INCOM-1210A is an airborne, secure, jam-resistant V/UHF communication system designed for air-to-air and air-to-ground voice/data communications. The system incorporates ECCM for tactical communications. INCOM-1210A is compact and of moderate weight, suitable for all fighter applications and compatible with MIL-STD-1553B and ARINC 429 data transfer.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 26 Aug 2008 22:01

Any news on how the other aircraft fared?
How did the IL-76 and the Garuds do? Did they neutralize / successfully paint their targets? The garuds in operation would mean that the opposing party too had special forces deployed?
Especially how did the IAF find the Rafale? What was the Rafale's role in this exercise, how did it fare?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Aug 2008 01:09

we only heard about MKI emittings!.. how about MKI collecting as well gathering about other a/cs' signature in the vicinity.!? why should "onlee the khan" be collecting always?

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 27 Aug 2008 03:06

Because we are SDRE's onleee...We can only cower in our dhotis, we can't think of such nefarious deeds..

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 27 Aug 2008 07:02

With the new cold war looming, I don't think Russia would be very happy to see their top of the line fighters in Indian service getting prolong exposure to American Intel snooping. The fact that the US was willing to risk a confrontation by sending a couple of warships is reason enough to think that they are confident of being able to withstand or counter Russian air attacks in the extreme scenario. Russia would not like further exposure of her tactical assets to American scrutiny.
Avram.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Aug 2008 09:08

With the new cold war looming, I don't think Russia would be very happy to see their top of the line fighters in Indian service getting prolong exposure to American Intel snooping. The fact that the US was willing to risk a confrontation by sending a couple of warships is reason enough to think that they are confident of being able to withstand or counter Russian air attacks in the extreme scenario. Russia would not like further exposure of her tactical assets to American scrutiny.
Avram.

IMHO, Indians are the "baap" of Russians when it comes to Paranoia(esp of Amrikans) and so, Russia need not be so worried about their assets in Indian hands...

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 27 Aug 2008 10:52

Yeah both, 'sum' and 'asprinzl' have a point. But then even the Amrikis run a risk of exposing their best of F-15s (USAF and ROK) and F-16s especially when they were running air-to-air missions. Raptors or not, the bulk of USAF still consists of Falcons and Eagles.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 27 Aug 2008 11:07

asprinzl wrote:With the new cold war looming, I don't think Russia would be very happy to see their top of the line fighters in Indian service getting prolong exposure to American Intel snooping. The fact that the US was willing to risk a confrontation by sending a couple of warships is reason enough to think that they are confident of being able to withstand or counter Russian air attacks in the extreme scenario. Russia would not like further exposure of her tactical assets to American scrutiny.
Avram.

I was shocked to see this video. After 09:22 one can see SA-2, SA-3, SA-6 and S-300 (only four vertical tubes are visible in the video)

at Nellis AFB. Further following was quoted in this thread.

Found at AFMF that there is a nearly complete S-300P SAM system set up in Nevada for USAF to play tag with during Red Flag. I guess S-300P system is compromised, at least to a good degree.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/08/us- ... sites.html

So the conclusion is if the US could own these tactical russian weapons then it must be having information about Bars/Flanker too by hook or crook. So why this ho halla about India pitting MKI in Red Flag.

Cheers...

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 27 Aug 2008 11:11

All of those are outdated versions which are used to simulate the threat. If USAf ever went against the ruAF version of S-300 they wouldn't come back.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2008 11:20

So the conclusion is if the US could own these tactical russian weapons then it must be having information about Bars/Flanker too by hook or crook. So why this ho halla about India pitting MKI in Red Flag.

these were compromised during the post break-up days when all of FSU was one giant scrapyard. mki and bars are later developments and should have their secrets intact. Of course that doesn't count leakages from regular bread and butter intel ops.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 27 Aug 2008 11:47

Rahul M wrote:
So the conclusion is if the US could own these tactical russian weapons then it must be having information about Bars/Flanker too by hook or crook. So why this ho halla about India pitting MKI in Red Flag.
these were compromised during the post break-up days when all of FSU was one giant scrapyard. mki and bars are later developments and should have their secrets intact. Of course that doesn't count leakages from regular bread and butter intel ops.

But in one of the NATO exercises (Trial Hammer 05) one of the CIS states bought their full battery of S-300PMU to practice SEAD mission.

S-300 and BARS are potent technologies there is no denying in that.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2008 12:19

yes but the tech of those s-300s should still be around 90s unless I'm much mistaken.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Aug 2008 13:37

rahul,

much of the intelligence of these systems is implemented in software.. with new versions of software you in fact a very new system .. so to say it is 90's tech may not be very correct...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2008 13:43

manjgu, read my post again please !

"those" refers to the CIS s-300 which probably haven't received any upgrade since the days of the USSR. certainly not russian ones(unless I'm much mistaken).

in that case the CIS s-300's are in fact early 90's tech, or at least are not same as current russki versions of s-300. your point supports this assertion.
regards.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 27 Aug 2008 13:51

How did the IL-76 and the Garuds do? Did they neutralize / successfully paint their targets? The garuds in operation would mean that the opposing party too had special forces deployed?

As per one newspaper article the Garud force was tasked with destroying a Radar Site 60kms inside Enemy terrritory and taking over a runway which they accomplished.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2008 13:53

are the garud equipped and trained as FAC ?? rkhanna do you have any idea ?
in fact, does IAF practice those type of ops at all ?

abrahavt · Post by **abrahavt** » 27 Aug 2008 19:56

In the 90s when the russians were broke and chummy with the US they actually sold a couple of the S300 systems directly to the US. The US was trying to get a system from one of the ExSoviet states and the Russians probably figured they would sell it directlya nd make some cash in the process. The system the US has is very old. I am sure the new systems in Russia have been much improved.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 27 Aug 2008 20:26

And they already have the S-400

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 27 Aug 2008 21:37

neerajbhandari wrote:So the conclusion is if the US could own these tactical russian weapons then it must be having information about Bars/Flanker too by hook or crook. So why this ho halla about India pitting MKI in Red Flag.

Sorry .. but we Indians should get of this kind of attitude.Just because 'Americans already might have it' is not a valid reason for Indians not to be careful about their secrets. Whether americans have it or not is irrelevant.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 28 Aug 2008 03:23

Enjoy more of the Sukhoi videos at Red Flags!!

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 28 Aug 2008 05:47

If you all remember, when the Israelis took out the Nuclear Reactor in Syria, they Jammed all the SAM and Radar sites along the way, including an S-300 System.
Moreover, Greece, Turkey have the system or are procuring it. The russians know that the old S-300 is now compromised.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 28 Aug 2008 10:29

Doesnt China also have the S300 system. Or is it the S300P. I wonder how much more advanced the S300P is.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Aug 2008 11:00

rahul, it is very difficult to know for sure if the systems have received a software upgrade...all i was say saying that upgrading systems now is very easy.... even if the base system was of 90;s vintage...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Aug 2008 12:20

It has been a fact that the Russians have looked towards India in giving them vital feedback on the various weapon systems acquired over the years.The MIG-21 series was modernised/upgraded with Indian input,so have naval assets,with the late Adm.Gorshkov congratulating the IN after '71 saying that they "learnt from us".In similar fashion today,the Russians would be extremely interested in seeing how their prize fighter,the SU-30 fares against the latest western/European aircraft,as the F-22 was not participating at all,as the US finds that it is too great a risk to even use the aircraft in current conflicts,as there re too many secrets to be lost.The basic details signature of the SU-30 has been known for years,as the aircraft has taken part in so many air shows and is in service with several countries.The IAF would've been incredibly stupid to have sent the aircraft exposing all its wares/abilities and must surely have had discussions with the Russians before sending the aircraft,which on the other hand would've done some silent snooping of its own too!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Aug 2008 17:45

on the other hand would've done some silent snooping of its own too!

any real time collection of data on the a/c signatures is good enough for base-lining. f-22s in the vicinity is definitely a good thing to look for, and if IAF had done a full blast MKI bars on it, even for a fraction of second, gives a big big deal for Zhuk-AE folks who are currently doing the field testing of their versions (not sure, the russkies have the switching mode scanning and tracking tech).

swapna · Post by **swapna** » 28 Aug 2008 18:00

SaiK wrote:
on the other hand would've done some silent snooping of its own too!
any real time collection of data on the a/c signatures is good enough for base-lining. f-22s in the vicinity is definitely a good thing to look for, and if IAF had done a full blast MKI bars on it, even for a fraction of second, gives a big big deal for Zhuk-AE folks who are currently doing the field testing of their versions (not sure, the russkies have the switching mode scanning and tracking tech).

Dont think IAF could do a full blast of bars on an F-22. The F-22 does't give any radar signature . When f-15s where pitted againt f-22 although the pilots could visibly see the f-22's there was nothing on their radar screens (BBc program on f-22).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Aug 2008 18:07

The F-22 does't give any radar signature

well, if you believe that.... I've some stealth bridges to sell you, best part is they are invisible !
better than the raptor what say ??

OK, enough fooling around ! here is the ultimate of those stealth bombers !
check it out !!
click !

swapna · Post by **swapna** » 28 Aug 2008 18:16

Rahul M wrote:
The F-22 does't give any radar signature
well, if you believe that.... I've some stealth bridges to sell you, best part is they are invisible !
better than the raptor what say ??

OK, enough fooling around ! here is the ultimate of those stealth bombers !
check it out !!
click !

That was what the pilots of f-15's were saying . All those f-15s were shot with out they even knowing about it .

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Aug 2008 18:41

swapna wrote:
Rahul M wrote:well, if you believe that.... I've some stealth bridges to sell you, best part is they are invisible !
better than the raptor what say ??

OK, enough fooling around ! here is the ultimate of those stealth bombers !
check it out !!
click !
That was what the pilots of f-15's were saying . All those f-15s were shot with out they even knowing about it .

[off topic] i think effective RCS for any stealth fighter is measured from front. But there is nothing as total stealth as of now.

There were similar reports of EF and F-22 in air once and pilot said he got a blip on his radar (captor) when he encountered F-22. But it was later denied by USAF. But F-22 does employ some classified technologies and very high sensor fusion through which i can even control/take direct input from other UAV or air assets.

It was good that it didn't went against MKI

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Aug 2008 20:16

active radar counter measures

just like noise cancellation earphones ! find the radar freq and cancel them out pesa+aesa.one can imagine the computing power it requires ( f22 supposedly has the computing power of 4-5 supercomputers).After the blip then nothing else ! Interesting to see how this would shape up against a good aesa .. you probably would need a 3rd gen aesa to counter it which again only one nation has.