IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Tanay
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Tanay » 03 Nov 2008 07:49

sunilUpa wrote:Did any one download the videos? I am getting a message that it is pvt.


I did.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby shiv » 03 Nov 2008 08:23

Tanay wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:Did any one download the videos? I am getting a message that it is pvt.


I did.


Could you put it on rapidshare please?

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Lalmohan » 03 Nov 2008 15:54

I don't think we need to fret too much about the air-air kills here - there was a claim of 'when our top guys' took them on (having fought the raptor many times) - and them being a regular operational squadron, then the usaf knew a few tricks to get at the SU's. also, the Su's are operating in a more restricted mode, which hinders them. frankly if the top red flag aggressor dudes are what it takes to beat the IAF Su's, then we are doing well.

they didn't say NO IFF, they said Russian IFF which is not compatible with USAF/NATO IFF, therefore the IAF pilots were asking AWACS for ID and getting shot down whilst they waited for confirmation. to counter this, IAF pilots started shooting first, and in the process got a high rate of frat kills, which worries the americans.

important point - this was a merged coalition effort, i.e. mixed force flying. the USAF really only does that operationally with the RAF and sometimes one or two other NATO airforces, not often with the French. So, given the restrictions, IAF did good.

I thought the guy was trying hard to shore up USAF H&D there and playing to the home crowd.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 03 Nov 2008 15:59

from the transcript :
anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.

AFAIK, it was the USAF pilots who went to town detailing the outcome, the IAF didn't release any "results".

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Dileep » 03 Nov 2008 16:07

The ONLY bit of concern is the comment about the TVC. TACDE will have to work on that. Rest, like fracticide, is specific to the red flag. If this is what they had to say at this context, we are doing great.

So we are still using a stick for TVC on MKI! I thought it's all integrated with the FBW.

It IS integrated to the FBW system. You engage it with a switch, and the stick input gets translated to BOTH the control surfaces AND the nozzles.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby neerajb » 03 Nov 2008 16:41

IMO the videos have been removed because those were revealing the sustained turn rates especially of Raptor (28 degrees per second). It is really intresting that Flanker can pull 24 degrees per second whereas F-15 manages to aroudn 15-16 degrees per second. It is intresting to note that F-16 and even Grippen boast about 20 degress per second.

Cheers....

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby rkhanna » 03 Nov 2008 16:46

I am a little disturbed about the whole lack of Datalink (HUD) thing. Was it because the Datalink was down on purpose (security measure) or is it that the MKI is not able to develop a complete picture from AWACs like other ACs?

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby maitya » 03 Nov 2008 16:50

But, but, the MKIs were instructed not to switch-on their radars, isn't it? :-?
So how come all this talk of 22nmi nose thingie being mentioned - unless, of course the IRST detect/track data is being talked about (still 22nmi is very high from tracking perspective - detection range is just about right though) with IFF confirmation from AWACS.

But if it's only detect then how are simulated weapons delivery (Fox1 and Fatricide etc.) possible? :eek:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby MukulMohanty » 03 Nov 2008 17:00

Second attempt.

I can bet my last dollar that someone is going to lose their job over this. Largely for the following reasons

1) qualitative comments on other AF's by participants which is largely supposed to be a training exercise. Reflects very poorly on the proffessionalism of the host AF.

2) Accusing another AF of unfair play and snooping around. I wonder how the FrAF would react to that.

3) Disclosing specific drawbacks. PAF, PLAAF would be laughing at IAF thinking we paid $20m to have our tactics disclosed on youtube.

4) Specific A/C charecteristics. Pretty sure, everyone knows the turn rates of these A/C. Doesn't take a genius to calculate it but seriously...

I am pretty sure this is a career terminating move...

Mukul

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby MukulMohanty » 03 Nov 2008 17:04

shiv wrote:
Tanay wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:Did any one download the videos? I am getting a message that it is pvt.


I did.


Could you put it on rapidshare please?



Could someone put this on rapidshare? My comments are based on the transcripts.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 03 Nov 2008 17:10

guys, just a request instead of rapidshare try ifile.it.

it's much much better than any other free filehosting site w/o any irritating counters,download limit and impressive download speed.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Jagan » 03 Nov 2008 17:12

Tanay, cmon, what are we waiting for, please please please upload on rapidshare asap.

Neeraj, thanks for those additional numbers on the turn rates, will update the transcript with yournumbers soon.

regards

Jagan

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 03 Nov 2008 17:15

Look at the pther videos posted by same guy...there is one analyzinf PLAAF (J-10, J-11 and PL-12) etc...)

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby maitya » 03 Nov 2008 17:17

rkhanna wrote:I am a little disturbed about the whole lack of Datalink (HUD) thing. Was it because the Datalink was down on purpose (security measure) or is it that the MKI is not able to develop a complete picture from AWACs like other ACs?

IIRC, the datalink that MKIs sport has very low bitrate (compared to MIDS etc.) and can only go in for a 4 way cluster max (i.e. max 4 MKIs can share data amongst themselves). Many moons back I'd posted some info on JTIDS and MKI datarate (open-source info that is), can't find those in the archives any more. :oops:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Lalmohan » 03 Nov 2008 17:54

it also doesn't make sense that IAF/Russia origin datalinks will be automatically compatible with NATO AWACS

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby MukulMohanty » 03 Nov 2008 18:06

sunilUpa wrote:Look at the pther videos posted by same guy...there is one analyzinf PLAAF (J-10, J-11 and PL-12) etc...)




Could we get a user name for this person, I would like to see his other videos.

Thanks,

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby HariC » 03 Nov 2008 20:06

Tanay wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:Did any one download the videos? I am getting a message that it is pvt.


I did.


..and......?

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 21:04

rkhanna wrote:I am a little disturbed about the whole lack of Datalink (HUD) thing. Was it because the Datalink was down on purpose (security measure) or is it that the MKI is not able to develop a complete picture from AWACs like other ACs?


the mki has polyot datalink able to provide jamproof/eccm resistant communication with other sukoi-30 mki aircraft. datalink information is available on mfd and aircraft can operate in wingman, or formation mode.

this operates on specific frequency and wsith protocol not = nato standard link 16 datalink, so of course mki cannot receive same

what u should be happy about is the factt that operating on training mode mki was able to detect and successively prosecute target at bvr ranges, this show range of bars radar and its actual ability.

read vishnu som comments about "having highest number of kills on some evening"

and video on timesnow about iaf coming out top @ redflag with actual interview saying the same.

the comments above by the youtube guy are sour grapes.

the bison doesnt have israeli radar but russia kopyo-21

red Flag was not hyped by indians but they were hyped by aviationweek because f-15 community in US requested it since they were widespread humiliated by rumors in USAF that they were kicked around so they wanted to clear their name.

the mki radar it is clear they still dont know its capability (but he still found it respectable) so training mode did paid off.

maitya wrote:IIRC, the datalink that MKIs sport has very low bitrate (compared to MIDS etc.) and can only go in for a 4 way cluster max (i.e. max 4 MKIs can share data amongst themselves). Many moons back I'd posted some info on JTIDS and MKI datarate (open-source info that is), can't find those in the archives any more.


there is nothing wrong with bitrate. please look up earlier nato datalink and function. they were slowed than mki and could share as much information. barely fraction of mids/link-16 bandwidth information is used. datalink with high rate, large b.w is more useful for a2g function which is good for the transmission of video pictures and imagery

also maximum 16 mkis (almst the entire squadron) can oprate in formation with datalink

targetting information can be shared--> lead mki can designate target so each plane will know targetting order and will have number at its side

all this is open information but i'll shut up now

----------------------

also about sustained turn rate remember, no AF shows all its tricks in exercise

so MKI sustained turn rate is "at least" 24 sustained.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby HariC » 03 Nov 2008 21:23

so MKI sustained turn rate is "at least" 24 sustained.


My understanding of the transcript - anything more than that the MKI stalls and drops out of the sky. Isnt that what he is saying?

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 21:36

stall is indicative of at flight speed and angle of attack, when lift is not sufficent and wings no longer "bite" the air as terms go

my point was that iaf pilot could have been instructed to "hold back" in str, ie you begin the turn after a marginal delay which will undershoot the str observed

there is much more about the mki that dioes not seem to have been used @ red flag.

one thing we know is it went to red flag with ~3 litening 2 or 3 pods (source: reports in us newsmedia)
Last edited by Vikram_S on 03 Nov 2008 23:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby HariC » 03 Nov 2008 21:41

Vikram_S wrote:stall is indicative of at flight speed and angle of attack, when lift is not sufficent and wings no longer "bite" the air as terms go

my point was that iaf pilot could have been instructed to "hold back" in str, ie you begin the turn after a marginal delay which will undershoot the str observed


yes. if IAF fighters went into a stall, then they tried to tighten the turn over the current turn rate . why would they do that if they had been asked to 'hold back' ?

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 21:47

you are not getting my point

he sees the opponent, he wants to win (why not), but he holds back slightly initially (per order) and when he doesnt get the results still goes for the kill (or tries to) at which point he stalls (he is a newbie pilot per transcirpt). against someone who has many flight hour in mki it wont work, he will knw the tradeoff of holding back in the beginning and that a stall would occur

remember "holding back" a bit does not mean he will not try to win

this is just a rookie mistake,
from photos it appears some seniors and a large number of entrant/pilots in training just operational on MkI but with few hours under ther belt

and it actually is good for the IAF they are having the brains to send rookies to redflag because seniors will retire in a decade but these guys have entire career ahead of them. every mistake will "burn" and they will remember it

but if u observe STr from external POV, he took so much time to take the turn.

same as bars radar issue. yes they can model all they want but actual range is dependent on signal processing and they can know only what we show

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby HariC » 03 Nov 2008 22:01

he sees the opponent, he wants to win (why not), but he holds back slightly initially (per order) and when he doesnt get the results still goes for the kill (or tries to) at which point he stalls (he is a newbie pilot per transcirpt). against someone who has many flight hour in mki it wont work, he will knw the tradeoff of holding back in the beginning and that a stall would occur

remember "holding back" a bit does not mean he will not try to win


You have to admit that you are making lots of assumptions on what the rookie pilot was told or felt. and the contrary may also apply. There may not have been any orders to 'hold back'.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 22:11

haric wrote:You have to admit that you are making lots of assumptions on what the rookie pilot was told or felt. and the contrary may also apply. There may not have been any orders to 'hold back'.


in every exercise till date iaf pilots have held back.
so you be the judge who is making assumptions

i am just saying STR is at least 24 degree sustained. nothing more nothing less. based on what 90% of reports on mki on net are, versus reality i have good basis to make my statement.

and there is a good reason why a pilot flies 180 hours annually. you have not arrived till you have at least 3-4 years on airframe and know what it is capable of.

and quality of the transcript in term of "truthing" can also be made out below:

us pilot wrote:Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there.


compare to:

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-co ... cle02.html

These same U.S. participants say the Indian pilots showed innovation and flexibility in their tactics. They also admit that they came into the exercise underrating the training and tactics of the pilots they faced. Instead of typical Cold War-style, ground-controlled interceptions, the Indians varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations. Indian air force planners never reinforced failure or repeated tactics that the U.S. easily repelled. Moreover, the IAF's airborne commanders changed tactics as opportunities arose. Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.

and point is it is selective truth by only mentioning su-30 k: he says bison was key threat also not just su-30 so again, most senior pilots there?

what about mirage 2000s? again most senior pilots there?

su-30 will have senior pilots because of a simple reason: su-30 k was acting as operational squadron making tactics for future squadrons. and these chap faced su-30 k which was primitive compared to f-15c.

as george bush would say: "truthing"!!

i think it is clear now cope india was a BIG blow to some in USAF community so they will fib, or use selective "truthing" to make it go away

not all at all but a few surely.

there is no doubt that f-22 is far superior to mki, but some of the statements in the transcript are very political for local consumption of "good old boys"
Last edited by Vikram_S on 03 Nov 2008 22:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 22:19

Dileep wrote:The ONLY bit of concern is the comment about the TVC. TACDE will have to work on that. Rest, like fracticide, is specific to the red flag. If this is what they had to say at this context, we are doing great.

So we are still using a stick for TVC on MKI! I thought it's all integrated with the FBW.

It IS integrated to the FBW system. You engage it with a switch, and the stick input gets translated to BOTH the control surfaces AND the nozzles.


it shows iaf had software disabled the IFF function on bars radar developed by (you know who) india & manufactured at HAL. we saw pics of both HAL and iaf guys at maintenance.
otherwise, you have a transponder enquired detail show up next to fighter designation on HUD/MFd
this BTW is a very wise thing, us is famous for IFF spoofing
also it also shows iaf disabled nctr mode on radar which could otherwise categorise opponent aircraft

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 03 Nov 2008 22:27

also it also shows iaf disabled nctr mode on radar which could otherwise categorise opponent aircraft

probably because it was in training mode.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 22:55

one another thing, the most funny actually:

so iaf rookies+ regulars go up against elite of usaf: red flag aggressors, handpicked from entire USAF and still do well - actually best amongst all 4 participants (see video with iaf officers back from red flag) but the usaf pilot is chest thumping because the iaf didnt overwhelm aggressor force 9:1 like at cope india.

and he thinks this is good.

wow. so next time usaf come to india, india should put TACDE against USAF visitors and feel happy if tacde does well? ;)

is this any kind of reasobale logic? but thats what the pilot is doing..perhaps because it is local audience so he is goign the extra miles

i think IAF has finally made its point interantionally if it takes red flag aggressors for h&d salve. and this is due credit to training process. and hopefully we dont fall into similar chest thumping stuff.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 22:56

Rahul M wrote:
also it also shows iaf disabled nctr mode on radar which could otherwise categorise opponent aircraft

probably because it was in training mode.


thats what i was trying to say
training mode = no nctr, IFF probably shut off otherwise

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Sid » 03 Nov 2008 23:06

crap, i cant see the videos.

can someone upload it plz. Its hard to follow this discussion without that transcript.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 23:23

1 more thing:

The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all. but they had less than 50 hours on it (this type and these were straight from the factory had zero hours on them) and they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact."


this is what i meant by political for local crowd. local aircraft >> than russian sukhoi, french rafale etc

f-15 k dont have AESA. they have msa, apg-63 v(1).

basically the presenter is playing to gallery.

perhaps its AFA presentation,

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby p_saggu » 03 Nov 2008 23:28

WRT the F-15 shooting down the Su-30 MKI's and the turn rates involved therein.

What happens in the opposite scenario? The MKI with an at least 24 sustained turn rate V/S a F-15 with a 16 sustained turn rate?
Result: MKI Wins HANDS DOWN. Gosh even a rookie in a MKI will shoot down a Pro in a F-15 provided the rookie plays the rules of the game correctly.

Just my two paisa

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby HariC » 03 Nov 2008 23:35

p_saggu wrote:
Gosh even a rookie in a MKI will shoot down a Pro in a F-15 provided the rookie plays the rules of the game correctly.



if the rookie knows the rules of the game correctly, then he is not a rookie anymore :) .

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Babui » 03 Nov 2008 23:44

he sees the opponent, he wants to win (why not), but he holds back slightly initially (per order) and when he doesnt get the results still goes for the kill (or tries to) at which point he stalls (he is a newbie pilot per transcirpt). against someone who has many flight hour in mki it wont work, he will knw the tradeoff of holding back in the beginning and that a stall would occur

It is - I'm afraid - a huge assumption and not very credible. I can understand all sides "hiding" key electronic measures but there is little reason to 'hide' operational characteristics of the plane's flight envelope. It is very unlikely, that a pilot (rookie or not) will have the presence of mind to "hold back slightly" when the adrenaline is pumping. I suspect that the USAF aggressor pilots do have significant experience against F-22 and used that experience to score against the Sukhoi. Nothing wrong with that. Better we learn - in training - that there are tactics and countertactics to defeat a Sukhoi than learn to our cost at war.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 03 Nov 2008 23:53

are u seriosu when u say this? "there is little reason to 'hide' operational characteristics of the plane's flight envelope." this is a key thing for all concern.

you need to read up more on exercises. fighters have been sent to exercise in past with detuned engines to mask performance

its standard practise to hold back the key performance of your aircraft in all respects until there is give n take, which happens in nato nations. it has been true in many exercises between many af. fact is nowadays with so much technology floating around every little bit matters, including airframe performance. with the pakistan factor in particular i am reasonably sure that with USAF india will not show all its cards, out of some vain desire to "impress" the usaf. if that is the case then by your logic to best know how to exploit weapons system even Bars would not be on training mode.

and yes, it is the adrenalin factor i am talking about when i say it is rookies who will not fly to the proper limits of the aicraft and overdo it. you seem to be under the impression that iaf would be unaware of post stall issue with mki before red flag or that such restrictions on maneuvering are not put.

and prebriefs and postbriefs are very much in detail, every little bit is analysed for next day flight and tactics determined. if you want to know how much tactics can change @ when professional make the call ask about exercisde garuda1, and what happened in wvr when glove came off.

also please look into the backseater/frontseater arrangement iaf is doing in training in terms of exercises and who (even in cope india2) wre majority of front seaters and who were the backseaters and their role.

and in tacde, iaf mig-21 fl has "Drilled" su-30 k. guess who was more experienced...but it does not mean that the same lesson was available to all newbies who hadnt gone to tacde by then. they learnt later.

if usaf aggressors achieve this against their [b]tacde peers or even an all fsl/fcl crew [b] (not mixture of rookies + few fcl/fsl seniors + seniors) then please talk about "lessons learnt" in this respect. understand what this is, a usaf guy bragging because in a few engagements his services best/elite got the better in gun engagements.

it is clear from the transcript that he is just talking up the service: "we got even for cope india guys and this is how".

and even there USAf pilot is playing to the gallery, he says after 3-4 days indians said "fine" at cope india they wanted more. well yeah, first time india met us, obviously we want to judge our skills versus theirs at basic level, this is now 3rd exercise. second time we met french did we do BVR or just as much WVR?

but is this reality?

in real, u would have pre merge (bvr), then merge (with r-73e archer + helmet sight + TVC advantage in STR) and only then guns

i would actually tells that if u got to guns in a mki then boss you have a problem this is a beast meant for bvr and missile ops, this guns stuff is to make the fighter jock feel good.

actually theres little in the transcript that is really unsanitised.

stuff about actual bvr prosecutions, about large force enagagement tactics,. about blue force vs red force counter air....zero information.

so understand the whole context
Last edited by Vikram_S on 04 Nov 2008 00:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 04 Nov 2008 00:05

I agree with Vikram on this. Tactics (by both parties) are decided based on performance, both electroinic as well as aerodynamic.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 04 Nov 2008 00:39

yeah i dont mean to insult the usaf

they are clearly the worlds most powerful AF

BUT the uncessary aviation week articles trumpeting their loss at cope india really hurt the pride of some in the fighter community

so its understandble that in front of home audience the pilot will try to make up for it

its human nature and very understandable

to the USAF PILOt credit he praises the IAF professionalism

that is still a sign of maturity

(something which paf etc will never come to. see retired PAF officers for example, each is a bigger joker than other and constantly tries to put down IAF. but PLAAF is worrying, some of their articles are very open and frank and they have one prasing the IAF system of training and operations. beware the opponent who is learning !!!!)

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby harbans » 04 Nov 2008 01:15

Mukul is right in intent, someone must pay for this idiocy. But just think a little more why the USAF has rattled IAF through this spokesman..coz they really got rattled in Cope India..Gwalior and Kalaikunda both! (that too M-21 Bisons and not flankers really) :mrgreen:

I can think no other reason why professional USAF staff would blurt such kind of stuff. IAF never rattled around what happened in Cope India. It was a senator in California that forced the hand of USAF to issue clarifications on the pasting at Gwalior. IAF never said anything at all.

IAF remains IMHO a more professional and honest force than USAF in this context. This is quite ridiculuos of the USAF personnel. Thats why Mr. Mohanty is correct someone in USAF has screwed up big time with such comments..

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby HariC » 04 Nov 2008 02:32

Vikram_S wrote:you need to read up more on exercises. fighters have been sent to exercise in past with detuned engines to mask performance

its standard practise to hold back the key performance of your aircraft in all respects until there is give n take,


Issue is not 'well known practices' - Issue is - Are you sure the IAF did this? If so how? Or are you just making assumptions?

Surya
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Surya » 04 Nov 2008 02:51

Vikram -

Can you provide the link to the PLAAF article you are talking about?

Thanks

rajkhalsa
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby rajkhalsa » 04 Nov 2008 03:16

Jagan wrote:and here it is - courtesy of GJ man and self:

The transcript

Thanks for the transcript, interesting stuff. Jagan, or some of you other guys who downloaded it, is it possible for you to upload that .flv file (I assume you've downloaded it) to rapidshare or megaupload or something, so that we could take a look-see ourselves pls?

sunilUpa wrote:Look at the pther videos posted by same guy...there is one analyzinf PLAAF (J-10, J-11 and PL-12) etc...)

The video seems to have been deleted. Do you have a link to the youtube page of the uploader, or can you please re-upload the videos discussing the Chinese aircraft on rapidshare, etc.?

Thanks to all in advance


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