IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Tanay
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Tanay » 04 Nov 2008 03:57

Jagan wrote:Tanay, cmon, what are we waiting for, please please please upload on rapidshare asap.

Neeraj, thanks for those additional numbers on the turn rates, will update the transcript with yournumbers soon.

regards

Jagan



Sorry, for the delay people. I had issues with my laptop.

Part 1 - http://www.MegaShare.com/518704
Part 2 - http://www.MegaShare.com/518707

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Jagan » 04 Nov 2008 04:48

Tanay, You are a champ! :) :) Thanks a bunch!

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 04 Nov 2008 05:09

rajkhalsa wrote:
Jagan wrote:and here it is - courtesy of GJ man and self:

The transcript

Thanks for the transcript, interesting stuff. Jagan, or some of you other guys who downloaded it, is it possible for you to upload that .flv file (I assume you've downloaded it) to rapidshare or megaupload or something, so that we could take a look-see ourselves pls?

sunilUpa wrote:Look at the pther videos posted by same guy...there is one analyzinf PLAAF (J-10, J-11 and PL-12) etc...)

The video seems to have been deleted. Do you have a link to the youtube page of the uploader, or can you please re-upload the videos discussing the Chinese aircraft on rapidshare, etc.?

Thanks to all in advance


I can't find that user name itself!

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby svinayak » 04 Nov 2008 06:48

harbans wrote:Mukul is right in intent, someone must pay for this idiocy. But just think a little more why the USAF has rattled IAF through this spokesman..coz they really got rattled in Cope India..Gwalior and Kalaikunda both! (that too M-21 Bisons and not flankers really) :mrgreen:

:mrgreen:
Yes they are really rattled by the Mig-21 Bisons with the Israeli radar and low signature.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby George J » 04 Nov 2008 09:44



Really appreciate your presence of mind to save these.

Children, regarding this video:

Jagan and I both agree that this was meant for a private audience and based on the keywords attached to the original posting it was probably presented at an Order of Daedalian meeting. What that is etc you guys can google.

While I would like to discredit the ENTIRE talk:
[*]Su-30M newest fighter...... Version 5 airplanes ?
[*]Tumansky engines
[*]No FOD screens on the std AL-31FP
[*]same air show demonstration as the F-22
[*]Cope India Su-30K best pilots-Indians pounded their chest
[*]Regular operational Su-30 unit were brought to Nellis
[*]Experienced guys comes from Mig-21 Bison has an Israeli radar
[*]In V shaped TVC
[*]the fumbling on PESA question

You guys have touched on the incompatibility of the datalinks and the strict use of the training mode on the Bars, so don't hang up on the sustained turn rate. He himself has told you the reason: MKI were flying only with ACMI pod and were simulating ARH. What were they NOT simulating? What happens when the MKI turns its nose to you? Sure you can come at it with guns blazing "and drill his brains out" but that's coz you are discounting WHY the MKI is turning its nose towards you. :twisted:

What really concerns me are the views (which I guess are privately held) that became public.

The French need to hear is what he has to say about them?
The IAF needs to hear what he has to say about where he thinks we should be: Alaska not Nellis.

Bottom line: The Red Flag was/is/will probably the closest the IAF will get to to play with folks who seem to be always at war in a setting that comes close to war. It is worth a lot more than $100 million. But if the private views one pilot moderately reflects the privately held views of his air force or govt then planner need to temper their new found friendship with some good old trust but verify.

Food for thought:
Its been what 4 years since Cope India? Even today do you kids know how many modes the N001V operates in? Even then they got to see only x of YY but we still donno what the YY is, it could be 1 of 99 or 9 of 10. :twisted: Waddya think? So let them soak up whatever they want to soak up. It meant precisely for that.

Don't worry have curry.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby hnair » 04 Nov 2008 09:49

:eek: :eek: :eek:

HOLY SH**!!! Weirdest Halloween ever.......... :twisted:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Nayak » 04 Nov 2008 09:54

Old jungle saying

The world will come to an end when America has a white rapper (eminem) a black president (obama) and GJ-monay re-joins BRF !!!

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 04 Nov 2008 09:57

:eek: :eek: :eek: todin is not normal!!! time to hit the sack.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Cybaru » 04 Nov 2008 10:00

hahah ..

GJ .. Ahem ... Did I just talk you into re-registering :)

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Dmurphy » 04 Nov 2008 10:26

Those videos belong to the humour thread.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby negi » 04 Nov 2008 10:26

^^ George sir heh heh.. Remember the dialogue from blade ?

Remember this, sooner or later the thirst always wins. :twisted:

Btw thanks Tanay for uploading the stuff , Imo a bit of 'vanity' is understandable from the USAF.
For me what was noteworthy was the acknowledgment of IAF's disciplined conduct with regards to observing the exercise arena , and 'zero' training rule violations during the whole exercise.

As for the fully loaded F-15 being able to out gun the Flanker ..I don't read too much into it for there are far too many variables to be considered before one would evaluate aircraft performance based on just one maneuver , for arguments sake an F-16 has been reported to have managed to shoot a Raptor in a close combat and back home Bison's came on top against the Eagles (acknowledged by the officer himself) ... so what gives ?

I am pleasantly surprised to read and hear that an A/C designed in 60's when suitably modified/upgraded and manned by well trained and motivated unit can actually give a Mach2.5 Eagle a run for its money.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby vina » 04 Nov 2008 10:35

George J wrote:Children, regarding this video:
..
Don't worry have curry.


GJMAN IS BACK Hallelujah! :D :D

Welcome back birather !.. All is well with the world! Recession /Depression ? . What the hell !. Welcome back to the party!

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby neerajb » 04 Nov 2008 10:36

George J wrote:[*]In V shaped TVC


What's wrong with that?

Cheers...

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 04 Nov 2008 10:46

Allah is kind....Khalid has emerged from the vast sands of the Sahara.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Daedalus » 04 Nov 2008 11:39

Some commends and thoughts after watching the video.

In part 1 of the video he said the MKI where shot down more often in the 1st week. This could be due to lack of proper equipment, like almost not working radar etc. But the interesting thing is from second week MKI trashed every one including friendlies :eek:.

Also he contradicts himself in the second part by saying the "First 3 days of the war they[Indians] had some losses and, they had losses because they where holding their shots waiting to here if there was a bad guy or friendly and they where dying."(Part 2 @ 4:47), which indirectly indicates Indians where extremely technologically challenged during the exercise.

The other thing I noticed is that through out the entire length of the video he compares the MKI with F-22, which means no other aircraft they know of other than F-22 is as capable or even more capable than MKI :twisted: .

He did not have much to say about the French(other than they where cowards) and Koreans(like kids). Which again says the only formidable opponent was IAF.

He also say there is lot of respect for IAF because of their professionalism and attitude at the exercise.

All these things make me conclude, IAF performed pretty good in the exercise and SU-30MKI is the second best in the world. The only problem IAF has is co-operating a campaign with another Air Force, which I don't think IAF has done in the past at least in a major way(not sure). By time and practice IAF will be capable of that too.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 04 Nov 2008 11:47

Welcome back GJman ! now only JC is left to be convinced !

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby hnair » 04 Nov 2008 11:48

Despite all the swagger in the video, the point that comes across is that of a cautious airforce that earned a lot of respect by conducting operations with planning and precision. I do not get on why posters were going off tangent and getting defensive.

In order to prove their even higher competence, we can expect the PAF to switch off everything including the engine in mid fight, at the next Red Flag.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby p_saggu » 04 Nov 2008 12:01

Why can't the IAF have 8 MKI's with derated engines, Western Link 16 datalinks, a derated Bars radar and other goodies specifically for participating in such exercises?
Load these aircraft up with sensors to evaluate all aircraft signatures for analysis later. Or atleast prepare such aircraft before an exercise.

Now is it possible that the current datalink could actually receive and transmit at American frequencies but was not doing so because of training mode of because we have to protect secrets. Is it not merely a function of datalink transmit/receive frequencies and encryption and decryption software where the difference lies? Surely we are masters at this.

And say for exercise purposes we are given a certain frequency to be able to link to those AWACS so that we may participate in a more wholesome manner?

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby p_saggu » 04 Nov 2008 12:07

The conclusions of Red Flag for the IAF are now derived in an indirect manner. Where the IAF was not seamlessly linked with the AWACS and so either they were undershooting and getting shot or over shooting. Although much more capable, the result would not reflect what would otherwise be really good performance.
The other thing that I want to know is, If all data is from an AWACS, then the Fighting aircraft is just basically a bomb / missile truck, firing off when it acquires the target and when the AWACS says so.
So the difference then lies in the tactics employed to corner the opponent - a human factor before the technology part kicks in.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Dileep » 04 Nov 2008 12:14

Am I awake? <pinch><pinch>Ouch!!
YESSS!! GJman is REALLY back.
Time to make some ulli theeyal in a bronze urli :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 04 Nov 2008 12:57

we dont have enough planes to keep dedicated 'aggressor' squadrons
with special derated kit.

on the datalink issue, a fleet wide datalink fitment for all of IAF
fighters to work with Phalcon is imminent. has been in development
for some time. will replace and far surpass lazur / biryuza / xyz and
bring everyone to same std.

it will take a few yrs thats all. afaik link16 is quite a old std and the
F22 has some better std to pump video imagery if necessary. the
gripen TIDLS is said to be more modern...thats something we can
shoot for.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Sid » 04 Nov 2008 13:09

from the video he looks more concerned with MIG 21 with "big jammers" then MKI.

But integration with AWACS is something worrisome, like how are gonna data-link with our own AWACS as they too are western in origin and wont be compatible with Russian data-link or whatever we have on MKI right now.

Since Phalcons will be Link 16 compatible, are we gonna upgrade all our fleet with this data-link? what is the future course of plan?

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby p_saggu » 04 Nov 2008 13:28

My only grouse is that because of the datalink issue, we were not able to seamlessly integrate in a large force attack / defense training. Much more valuable training data was missed because of this single issue only.
It was funny to see the USAF officer trying so hard to explain away things. Full marks to the IAF for the way they carried themselves. Full marks to them to take care of their equipment, the issue of the 1 minute delay takeoffs reflects their concern that all equipment should function to its fullest and no opportunity for an unnecessary engine damage to happen on foreign shores. The americans don't like it when someone else tells them to do things their way, I think the sheepish behaviour of their various allies has spoilt these brats. I smell sour grapes when they say that IAF should go to Alaska and not Nellis perhaps because the IAF threw its weight around - Justifiably - the IAF was the one with the most advanced most powerful piece of equipment around because the F-22 wasn't there. The next time around we should not give them even this opportunity and let them find a new set of excuses.
IAF lost out on not having live AWACS feed of how the aggressor force was maneuvering and how they would deal with this. Currently because we don't have our own AWACS, this should have been an area where we should have given priority focus to.
For BVR engagements and in large force engagements the AWACS is the most important piece of equipment, and when the first shots have been fired and if the second engagement is WVR, then the capabilities of the indicidual fighter come in. IAF with SU-30MKI + thrust vectoring + HMS cued missiles + Welltrained / disciplined crew in an ECM/ECCM environment will prevail over any aggresor, including the USAF.

Problem with an opponent like the USAF is that they will NOT let the battle get into WVR with superior numbers + BVR + Overwhelming ECM/ECCM. This is what we have to learn at all Indo-US exercises.

The MKI is the second most capable fighter aircraft in the world period. The raptor scores in carbon composite skin + AESA + RCS wrt the MKI onlee. Otherwise individual capabilities of these 4th gen fighters is a case of a "Mine is bigger" affliction.

JMT

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby andy B » 04 Nov 2008 14:15

George J wrote:
Tanay wrote:
While I would like to discredit the ENTIRE talk:
[*]Su-30M newest fighter...... Version 5 airplanes ?
[*]Tumansky engines
[*]No FOD screens on the std AL-31FP
[*]same air show demonstration as the F-22
[*]Cope India Su-30K best pilots-Indians pounded their chest
[*]Regular operational Su-30 unit were brought to Nellis
[*]Experienced guys comes from Mig-21 Bison has an Israeli radar
[*]In V shaped TVC
[*]the fumbling on PESA question

George welcome back...as Rahul said now only to get Jcage to sign up

Thank for summarising the above points, IMHO the USAF officer in question should be getting his facts right before making those statements because as shown in this case even "private" debriefs can get out and raise a lot of questions. I had a question or two for the gurus:
1). Rambha has got the saturn AL31FP right? not the tumansky???
2). In regards to the datalink will the current russian system be able to recive data from the phalcon will as Singha ji has already pointed there will be a comprehensive datalink upgrade for all of IAF?
3). Indian made MKIs are planned to have more composites so again a late manufactured MKI (post 2010) will these fare better?
4). Regarding what he said about the Bison about being invisible and all, IMHO that actually can play out quite well against the PLAAF where in a flight of MKIs coming from the south can be high up and attract all the attention whereas a flight of Bisons flying from bases close to the border in the north/north east can be low on the horizon fire their active missiles and get outta there ? :twisted:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Nov 2008 14:52

on FOD - the real issue is not FOD, but what happens should an engine get damaged. The USAF will have no shortage of spares for their birds, if the IAF has to return the Saturn to Russia, then its mostly a case of avoidable expense

on datalinks - the issue is incompatibility between NATO and Russian data formats/standards not equipment per se; not a real issue for us unless we mean to fly joint strike packages with USAF, nor do we envisage flying normally under the control of NATO AWACS in a complex air battle

the speaker was not speaking to a military audience, more like a bunch of aviation journalists and/or retired flyers - references to 'some of you will remember the MiG21...' etc., and was therefore being very 'gung ho' about the whole thing and he reiterated that he was not saying anything that you could not read in Jane's. The French bashing was very much a function of the audience and their expectations. Documentaries on Red Flag which show multiple NATO participants show a much more integrated and collaborative environment

My thinking is that, coming to Red Flag for the first time to play with the 'big boys' on their home turf, we should not have expected much, but we seem to have held our own or better. That is a pretty good outcome. The USAF and others had written off the IAF as 'Soviet style' incompetent third world darkies, and are now very surprised to see us as being capable and competent - that is the real surprise, since many American military types (in my limited exposure to them) are massively arrogant about their own capabilities. Its got them worried about other players who they might come up against. They are also desperately worried that Chinese Flankers will kick their butts, you'll see a lot of posturing around that as well.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 04 Nov 2008 15:07

link16 seem to be a broadcast type thing oriented for awacs->many fighters usage. gripen TIDLS has a massive 500km range and can netwk
4 fighters together using many clever tricks to indulge in 'shadow games' even when no Ereyie is there.

I have found a couple of link about IAF datalink effort but not much
details. I would think prototype stage for the airborne component
is already there or imminent.

India to get network centric warfare capability: Naik

Sat-Aug 16, 2008

Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada / Press Trust of India
Rubbing shoulders with its counterparts from the US and the NATO in one of the most modern war games, the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to move rapidly towards developing network centric warfare (NCW) capability in the next few years.

Su-30 MKI supersonic fighter jets, IL-76 heavylift transport aircraft and IL-78 air-to-air refuellers of the IAF are pitted against the NATO F-16s and F-15s in the network-centric operations--the toughest test for flying machines and men--over the Nevada desert in their first appearance in the fortnight-long peace-time air exercise, 'Red Flag' currently in progress.

Being the world's most advanced exercise, 'Red Flag' provides participating air forces the best opportunity to test their mettle in a simulated war game that envisages all air battle scenarios in a network-centric environment.

"NCW is vital. You cannot survive today for long against a good adversary without the NCW capability," said IAF vice chief Air Marshal P V Naik, who was here to witness the IAF participation in 'Red Flag'.

He said the Indian armed forces will have this capability by 2010-2011. "At present we do not have it, we are just about network-enabled. But we are in the process of developing this capability."

The backbone of the IAF's NCW system would be a fibre optic-based network called Air Force Network (AFNET), on which would be riding the Integrated Air Command and Control Systems (IACCS), Naik said.

Sharing information

IACCS will provide connectivity for all the airborne platforms and ground platforms as part of IAF's network centricity.

"Network centricity involves linking ground, air, and space assets together so as to have complete situational awareness," Naik said, explaining the concept.

Pioneered by the United States Department of Defence, NCW relies on computer processing power and networking communications technology to provide shared information of the battle space among armed forces.

This shared awareness increases synergy for command and control, resulting in superior decision- making, and the ability to coordinate complex military operations over long distances for an overwhelming war-fighting advantage.

Top US armed forces official, Lt Gen Loyd Utterback, who addressed the IAF team during the exercise, said he had been planning to have the Indian team in 'Red Flag' for long and that it materialised only now.

Gen Utterback said the US air force and the IAF together formed an incredible team for peace and security. "I am looking forward to work with you (IAF) more," he added.

The IAF vice chief said participating in the 'Red Flag' exercise was every pilots' dream and it helped them to fly away from the home environment with various other types of aircraft.

"It is a dense flying environment with large force engagements. It has only been three or four days of flying in the exercise but we are on track to achieve the goals we had set for the IAF before coming for Red Flag exercise," Naik said replying to a query.

Talking about the IAF's efforts to get its network-centricity in place, Naik said the integration of the Operational Data Link (ODL) on the airborne platforms of IAF would complete the chain of the IACCS.


"Basically we are looking for a three-tier net—the ground network, the space network and the airborne network," he said.

In the space network, there would be satellites for the armed forces, while the Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AEWACS), acquired newly from Israel, would for the link between the space assets and the airborne assets in IAF's network centricity.

"This (space assets networking) is going to happen very soon," he said, adding AEWACS would be joining the IAF fleet by the end of this year.


The first of the three AEWACS from Israel is scheduled to arrive in India by October this year and the other two would join the force in 2009.

"After all this, the Air Force Net should become operational by December this year and the IACCS by 2011," Naik added.

In fact, IAF was the first of the tri-services to ask for an Aerospace Command and for integrating the space assets towards acquiring a star wars capability. It also went ahead and established a new branch in its headquarters for looking after the space operations under a two-star Air Officer.

Strategic interests

As recently as in June this year, the Indian government also announced the formation of an Integrated Space Cell, as a precursor to the establishment of an Aerospace Command, that would integrate India's space assets for military operations by the tri-services.

With India's strategic interests expanding beyond its land and sea borders, Naik said it was only in its interest for the IAF to test its capabilities in far away locations and varied environments.

"We want to check whether we are capable of projecting power over that kind of distances if not more," Naik said.

"Secondly, we want to test our logistic and administrative abilities to support such a large number of people so far away from home, without much difficulty.

"In addition, the IAF also wanted to check whether its personnel are capable of operating in varied environments without much loss of effectiveness," Naik added.

Noting that IAF had so far had no problems vis-a-vis its operations or capabilities, the Vice Chief of Air Staff said with India becoming a global player, it was important to test "how good are we in large force engagements against different types of aircraft other than those we own in India."

He added, "it is every fighter pilot's dream to participate in the Red Flag.

It helps you fly in a different environment, fly large force engagements which can be debriefed, picturised in a much better manner here than anywhere else and helps you fly in an environment of different kind of aircrafts than what you are used to.

"I was talking to our transport pilots and very rarely do they get a chance to fly in such a dense environment, so these have been some of the major gains of this Red Flag exercise," he said.

Pointing out that it was very costly--IAF has spent over Rs 100 crore--to participate in 'Red Flag', Naik said he did not think IAF will take part in another 'Red Flag' for another four to five years.

"As a policy, IAF carries out major exercises abroad once in four to five years," he added.

When asked if there were reciprocal exercises planned in India, the vice chief said there were some joint exercises planned between the two countries, but none at the 'Red Flag' scale.
=============

http://direct.bl.uk/bld/PlaceOrder.do?U ... archengine

India: Air Force launches $1B datalink effort
Author
Journal title
DEFENSE NEWS
Bibliographic details 2006, VOL 21; NUMB 46, pages 14-14

MukulMohanty
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby MukulMohanty » 04 Nov 2008 15:42

The speed with which this video was removed from youtube suggests that this person is in trouble. A lot of trouble.

maitya
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby maitya » 04 Nov 2008 16:36

George J wrote:Don't worry have curry.

Now WAIT ... George J in "new and improved" BR (copyright you-know-who) - will take time to digest.

So here's the first test:
GeorgeJ is back to NEW AND IMPROVED BR.
:mrgreen: :twisted:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Kapil » 04 Nov 2008 17:55

Well, the most challenging thing facing the IAF was catering to 120 vegetarians in the middle of Nevada.
8)

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Himanshu » 04 Nov 2008 18:19

Reminds me of
BR Survey

1) Where do you see BR heading in the future? Or rather where do you think BR should lead in the future?

2) In what areas (Army, Monitor, Bookstore, etc) and in what kinds of service (website updates, forum administration, etc) do we need to improve upon?

3) Do you believe that George J eats crow soup on a regular basis and why? Please give examples or illustrations to support your answers.

4) Do you believe that Kapil Chandni spends more time with the ladies of Mumbai, than he does on BR? Once again, please give examples or illustrations to support your answers.

5) Why is it that Rudraji has a solution to every question posed on BRF?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=173

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby HariC » 04 Nov 2008 19:15

Shiv retires, then George J re-appears

Shiv == George J :rotfl: :rotfl:


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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vipul » 04 Nov 2008 20:04

GJ welcome back.Seems you were missing your favorite crow dish :P
JC hope to see you back too.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby MukulMohanty » 04 Nov 2008 20:15

A very condascending video.

Sent it to people within the AF to see what they think of this.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sum » 04 Nov 2008 20:55

Could someone pleeeeease point to the "alleged" video of this USAF jock(or any USAF guy) talking about the PLAAF?

George J
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby George J » 04 Nov 2008 21:42

Thanks guys. I am glad that many of you still remember me. Been lurking on the "new and improved" BR but this video was a little too much for me to stomach from the sidelines.

I believe "the concerned folks" have already started hearing about this video. I guess they are in the best position to make a judgment on how damning (opinions and tone...his inference is as good as your regular AFM oracle) this video really is. Perhaps they can remind their counterparts that not everything said in private often remains private.

More on the video:
Either the IAF lied to him (which is plausible, they are not bound to tell him the truth) or he really does not know what he is talking about (which is plausible since he called the Saturn a Tumansky). The AL-31FP (like the plain old AL-31F) has FOD screens/mesh.

Image

And the AL-31FP does not have "V-Shaped" TVC. It has 15/32 deg.

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html Scroll down to "Engines and Fuel System" section. Since I cant inline the image.

Also HAL Koraput is already tooled up to start overhauling the AL-31FP or at least we hope. It's about time.
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=&id=104721 (there are more elements that sort of hint otherwise but it would be merely conjecture, so why bother)

Now I am not saying that he was completely inaccurate (although a majority of the stuff he said about the Su-30M/Tumansky engines he would not find even on Janes) he did get a few things right.

1) The MKI does have a "maneuver" switch on the stick which is what activates the TVC and the FBW then accounts for this activation when executing the rest of the flight regimen. But the TVC has its own finite life and warranty and the IAF knows that and is employed when absolutely required (which means you don't see it in airshows either)

2) The MKI has its own data link which was/is/never will be intended to work with anything that NATO has, it was after all designed AGAINST them. That does NOT mean that it does not work with what intended to work with: Phalcon and the DRDO AEW (more on that later).

3) If the IAF did not simulate the R-73 (no training round = no seeker head = no simulation in my book) then yes the MKI got his "brains drilled out" but is that an accurate representation of how the MKI is actually deployed? Your guess is as good as mine. All I know is:
The Sura HMS-R-73-TVC combination pretty much comes close to perfection (when it comes to WVR engagement)....
.

4) Based on his "vast knowledge" about Su-30M/Tumansky/FOD doors/etc he is automatically an expert on PESA which he has never seen till he saw the MKI. So if he says its sux compared to AESA he probably is right, after all Janes tells you the same too right?

Etc.....Etc......

The problem is not that he is completely wrong on almost all counts, the problem is that he seems to a bonafide Red Flag Nellis F-15 pilot and so whatever inaccuracies and fallacies he spouts STILL carry a lot of weight.
Last edited by George J on 04 Nov 2008 22:25, edited 2 times in total.

Bharadwaj
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Bharadwaj » 04 Nov 2008 22:03

This is strong proof that the whipping at COPE was real and not made up to bolster the case for more raptors which was what the yankee fanboys were claiming. Any perceived gain-however minor and irrelevant -is now shouted out from the roof tops. Nice to know that the wounds are still fresh...

neerajb
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby neerajb » 04 Nov 2008 22:14

George J wrote:And the AL-31FP does not have "V-Shaped" TVC. It has 15/32 deg.


His meaning by "V" is when both the nozzles move from +15 degree deflection to -15 degree deflection they form a "V" shape i.e. converge towards each other because the nozzles are canted 32 degree inwards from centerline and the nozzles move up and down in a tilted axis which is not paraller to vertical tails. When the Su-30 is parked, the nozzles can be seen resting in -15 degree deflection at the bottom of the "V" i.e. dropped.

Image

Cheers....

Vikram_S
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 04 Nov 2008 22:17

haric wrote:Issue is not 'well known practices' - Issue is - Are you sure the IAF did this? If so how? Or are you just making assumptions?


if you can post, you can read and so go through whatver i have already written. after that you are free to make your own assumptions and decide the "issue". you will not get more details on the subject from me.

Surya sir

I will find that article and post it for you, basically pla visit to india and person impressed by what he saw. in contrast, paf guy would try to shore up his service h&d

Vikram_S
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 04 Nov 2008 22:24

georgej wrote:While I would like to discredit the ENTIRE talk:
[*]Su-30M newest fighter...... Version 5 airplanes ?


last version of mki is phase 3.

[*]Tumansky engines
[*]No FOD screens on the std AL-31FP
[*]same air show demonstration as the F-22


you know this.

[*]Cope India Su-30K best pilots-Indians pounded their chest


indian su-30 k won almost all of their engagement vs f-15 but it was their own awst which tom tom loss.
in india media woke up after article by chiadnand rajghatta of times india after awst leak

[*]Experienced guys comes from Mig-21 Bison has an Israeli radar


bison has kopyo-21 radar

[*]the fumbling on PESA question


very right it is surprising
but it shows he doesnt know the real capability of bars radar

in my estimation, su-30 mki is quite easily comparable/superior to f-15k leaving behind legacy fighters


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