IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Babui · Post by **Babui** » 03 Sep 2008 03:10

Rich is correct to a large extent. In my opinion, the primary mission of the IAF would be to attack the air defences, command & control hubs and the nuclear option (centered around Ghauri and copycat missiles and the F-16s). The missions would center around neutralizing PAF air bases to damage or limit its strike aircraft from taking off. Also, I suspect that many of the Ghauri/Hatf missiles are stored at these airbases as they are the most heavily defended of all Pak defence assets. While PAF is limited in its medium and high level coverage, it does have a significant amount of MANPADS and flak regmts for low level defence. Between air interdiction (PAF's primary mission) and their low level air defence coverage, I suspect that the IAF will suffer heavy casualties. Anyway, this is not the right thread to discuss.........

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Sep 2008 08:30

LACM brahmos would probably be used liberally in SEAD, may be even before the IAF arrives at the scene.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 03 Sep 2008 08:48

What abt the crystal maze etc? Mirages and Jags can easily carry them.

Ved · Post by **Ved** » 03 Sep 2008 09:06

ranganathan wrote:Paki air defences are rudimentary and not a big threat.

I wish!

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Sep 2008 09:38

Lets not get off topic. The IAF and IA have lots of HARM (High Speed Anti Radiation Missiles) and stand off weapons to take care of enemy air defenses.

Now back to topic.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Sep 2008 10:48

Pls do carry on this discussion in the Paki weapons thread......A very interesting and lively(informative,of course) discussion was going on...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Sep 2008 11:49

Once Pak acquires its Swedish ERIYE version of AWACS,6 aircraft planned,it will give it a significant improvement in its air defences.The IAF should've taken up the offer of high altitude MIG-31 with long range AAMS specifically meant to deal with AWACS aircraft.What the SU-30s capabilities are in comparison is a big Q mark,as the relevant LR AAMs appear to still be under development.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Sep 2008 12:25

please heed to sum's advice.

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 03 Sep 2008 17:49

Derailing thread.

One question I had was is the implication of installing a third party pod on your wings that basically monitors your every move and your reactions on engagement. Doesn't that give a lot away itself. I am pretty sure that InAF would have thought through the exposure of intel equipment, and realised the benefits do outweigh all of that and $25m.

That is a lot of money for 14 days.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Sep 2008 19:21

presumably an aircraft's software environment has a degree of firewalling and protection? the other factor being, that the databus's as i understand them are not exactly general purpose PC type communication devices, they have fixed formats and various degrees of access and hierarchies, etc. I am not sure that any device could just latch on and suck deep from the memory in practice

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 06 Sep 2008 05:06

Initial work-ups at Boise photos can now be seen here

Posting some samples below -
Col McGovern and Gp Capt Choudhury

Lead Tanker Crew - led by Gp Capt Sanjeev Kapoor

Aggressor pilot Capt Corey Hermesch, gets a ride in the Sukhoi piloted by Wg Cdr Jasbir Singh

Maintainers of the Su - Just arrived in Mountain Home AFB -

Gp Capt Ajay Rathore briefs the folks, just arriving at MUO -

Lunch in session - Desi ishtyle

Gp Capt Choudhury plans the movement to LSV (Nellis AFB) -

Just arrived - the Sukhoi pilots and maintainers who first arrived at MUO, were greeted by the US pilots of the 390th, 389th, and 18th AGRS -

B/R
Kedar

Vaibhav · Post by **Vaibhav** » 06 Sep 2008 19:33

Guess someone should redesign IAF Uniforms! Looks so dated like Blue collar workers of any Government Mill!

bagha · Post by **bagha** » 06 Sep 2008 23:01

The uniforms, the turnout, the attitude as seen in the photographs clearly shows a professional, confident AND happy bunch of people.

I for one would totally disagree on the need to change uniforms.

saps · Post by **saps** » 06 Sep 2008 23:22

Dont bother about the uniform....i guess what matters most is the meat in the matter...oops uniform....if u have got then u have got it......and the looks do seem to suggest that they are full of "Mojo" there with the best guys red flag has to offer.....kudos to our guys !!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Sep 2008 23:35

why on earth does the pilot's uniform colour need to change?! its an IAF tradition and should be followed. Luftwaffe crews sometimes wear gray jumpsuits, so do they look like labour crews to you ? or would you rather that the IAF took a cue from the bhikhaaris across the border and started using hand-me-downs from the US? get over the superficiality dude.

anyway, within the squadrons itself, you'll see different coloured jumpsuits, with mudmovers like Jag pilots wearing green jumpsuits and those who operate over maritime environment wear orange dayglo suits.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 07 Sep 2008 00:05

Kartik wrote:why on earth does the pilot's uniform colour need to change?! its an IAF tradition and should be followed.

without making fashion or aesthetic appeal a reason, from what i have seen of the indian & non-indian crews, i think others provide an element of camouflage which the IAF uniform doesnot.
If ever a pilot bails out in enemy territory, how difficult will it be to pick the deep blue uniform against a woody/leafy vegetation. I dont think it would be providing any protective value. However green & disruptive patterns obviously would.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 07 Sep 2008 00:08

Yeah? and what if he ejects over thar desert? yellow overalls?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Sep 2008 00:13

yes !

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 07 Sep 2008 00:20

Rahul M wrote:yes !

he he
but then the indian army does wear olive greens even in the desert!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2008 00:44

I believe taking out the big truck mounted but static 3D radars can be targeted with
brahmos or crystal maze once their locations are pointed by ESM and IMINT.

the smaller guidance radars for SAM are more mobile and more in number and would
be targeted with Kh31p and armat mostly.

near the border esp at night, harpy drones can also target.

for manpads relying on passive IR, no ARM is useful. flares and the aircrafts speed
and climbing power would be used to leave the area quickly.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 07 Sep 2008 06:24

I am quite surprised to see several of the very senior looking gentlemen who are piloting the frontline aircrafts. I think these guys should be out there as instructors- imparting their skills and knowledge to new pilots.
Avram

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Sep 2008 08:04

asprinzl wrote:I am quite surprised to see several of the very senior looking gentlemen who are piloting the frontline aircrafts. I think these guys should be out there as instructors- imparting their skills and knowledge to new pilots.
Avram

how senior is very senior? IAF sqdn commanders are usually of wing commander ranks but of course they would have a couple of senior group captains (at around 40 yrs?) for a mission of such complexity. 40 is by no means an age whereby pilots are grounded. this is true for any air force. there are a # of junior pilots in the team.
also, not all the personnel featured in the above pics are pilots.

Vaibhav · Post by **Vaibhav** » 08 Sep 2008 17:19

Just an open Question, Why did IAF Select Blue as its dress code or uniform? It nither has any camoflage value nor its a tradition. It was introduced in late 70s if I am right. I think IAF must have uniforms as per the battle conditions applied. Yellow for desert, green or olive for Plains etc. Why Blue and that too deep dark blue?

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 08 Sep 2008 18:58

Vaibhav
Post subject: Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Just an open Question, Why did IAF Select Blue as its dress code or uniform? It nither has any camoflage value nor its a tradition. It was introduced in late

Because the sky is blue. The motto of IAF is to touch the sky.

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 08 Sep 2008 19:14

When 30sqd visited Waddington for exercise Indradhanush.. the pilots donned the khaki color overalls.. it all depends on the mission I believe.. Jagan might be able to shed more light on this aspect..

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... w=previous

Also more information from IAF website..
http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_page.php?pg_id=10

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 13 Sep 2008 18:33

IAF warriors return from Red Flag Nellis, conduct joint exercise with UAE Air Force on return leg - Shiv Aroor

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 16 Sep 2008 14:52

Blue to green, IAF changes colours
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has taken a leaf out of the United States Air Force’s book and ‘changed colours’.

Some four years after the army aped the US and allowed its generals to wear stars on their collar tabs, it is now the turn of the IAF’s combat pilots to don the same flight overalls as their American counterparts.

The 75-year-old IAF has switched over from its traditional blue flying outfits to green suits for pilots and support crews. “It really does mark a departure in the sense that one tradition has evolved into another. Blue has been associated with the IAF since the 1960s (before that the flight overalls were light grey),” said a former air marshal.

The IAF, however, doesn’t mind shedding its time-honoured identity in favour of blending in with international trends. A senior air force officer said, “Green is typically used for field uniforms by many militaries. Fighter pilots and ground crew world over wear green overalls. We are keeping up with the trend.”

Incidentally, the IAF made its debut at the Red Flag exercises in the US this August when its top guns strapped in Su-30 MKI cockpits tested their warfighting skills against combat seasoned American, French and South Korean pilots — all of whom were sporting greens.

The transition to greens has already begun at some IAF squadrons and gradually all of them will switch over to the new dress code, the officer said.

The greens are not the only factor unifying the Indian and US air forces. The IAF had released a book titled “Into the Blue Yonder” last year to mark its platinum jubilee. Incidentally, the USAF official song is often informally referred to as “Into the Wild Blue Yonder”.

Vaibhav · Post by **Vaibhav** » 16 Sep 2008 16:57

Didn't we just discussed the same topic about IAF changing its Uniform?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 16 Sep 2008 17:24

Some four years after the army aped the US and allowed its generals to wear stars on their collar tabs

Credit where it should be due. The Army didnt ape the US. they aped the IAF which was first to introduce Star Collar Tabs

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 18 Sep 2008 18:24

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=608914

India to have a 'Red Flag' war game of its own soon

NEW DELHI, SEP 18 (PTI)

India will soon have an advanced air war game in a multi-national setting on the lines of the US' Red Flag exercise in which the Indian Air Force (IAF) participated this August for the first time.

"Yes, we are working towards having a multi-national air force gaming, which will be quite advanced, providing the best of air battle scenarios," IAF's vice chief Air Marshal P V Naik told reporters here today.

The proposed war game would be held on Indian soil and would have a distinct Indian name, he said, replying to queries on the sidelines of an IAF team's debriefing on the Red Flag exercise here.

The team comprising 91 officers and 156 personnel below officer rank had returned home from the US late last week and are in the process of compiling their experiences at the Red Flag exercise for future reference.

Naik said India went on to participate in the exercise on the invitation from the US Air Force and it was a rarity that a non-NATO country's air force was participating in the exercise that followed NATO standard operating procedures.

However, the Indian contingent "seamlessly integrating" into the US Air Force' operating procedures impressed the Red Flag staff members.

Though the IAF's ability to adapt to new operating environment quickly was at full display at Red Flag, Naik said India's participation at the world's only exercise with near warlike, large force engagement scenarios would be done once in five years.

"The Red Flag happens every quarter in a year, but IAF participating in it was an expensive affair. The Red Flag being a complex exercise, extensive preparation too is needed, which actually unsettles the regular training rhythm of IAF pilots," Naik said.

"The process of IAF participation in the Red Flag this August started in February 2007 with the USAF Chief General T Micheal Moseley extending an invitation for participation in the coveted exercise," the IAF vice chief added.

The IAF had joined the US, French and South Korean air forces for Red Flag held at the Nellis USAF Base in Nevada State.

Of all the air forces that participated in the exercise, the IAF had the distinction of being the only air force to have about 95 per cent serviceability of all its platforms, be it the eight Su-30 multi role, air superiority, strike fighters, two IL-78 air-to-air refuellers or the lone IL-76 heavy lift transport aircraft.

Red Flag also provided opportunity to the IAF to test its capability to deploy a trans-continental task force of fighters, refuellers and transport aircraft, Group Captain D Chaudhary, IAF's Gwalior-based Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE) Commandant and the team leader for the exercise.

"Yes, IAF does possess the capability for deploying troops and force projection in battle grounds far away from India's mainland if necessary," Naik said to a question.

The IAF pilots also gained experience on the USAF's F-16s when the two sides did some half-a-dozen exchange flying with their pilots trying out the Su-30 MKI aircraft.

"Of course, the exchange flying sorties were done in non-sensors mode and it was done at USAF base Mountain Home in Idaho State during the work up phase just before the actual Red Flag exercises," Wing Commander G Thomas, commanding officer of the Pune-based 20 Squadron, said.

While the French brought their latest Rafale aircraft, the South Koreans brought their F-15s and the US both their F-15s F-16s to the Red Flag.

Incidentally, F-16 of Lockheed Martin, a US aerospace major, and French Rafale are contenders for IAF's requirement of 126 multi-role combat aircraft.

On their return journey, the IAF team also stopped at Al Dhafra near to Abu Dhabi in United Arab Emirates to participate in the 'Desert Eagle' exercise with the UAE air force.

The Su-30s exercised with the UAE's Mirage-2000s and F-16s during Desert Eagle, the first time India and UAE air forces were exercising together.

"The invitation for Dese rt Eagle had come while the IAF team to Red Flag was on its way to the US. So during the return journey, the IAF team was exposed to the UAE air force's exercise too," Naik said.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 18 Sep 2008 19:31

Times now reporting that IAF outdid USAF good going

http://broadband.indiatimes.com/showvideo/3499750.cms

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 18 Sep 2008 20:50

Kakarat wrote:IAF warriors return from Red Flag Nellis, conduct joint exercise with UAE Air Force on return leg - Shiv Aroor

On the return, the contingent also made a week long stop over at Al-Dafra, United Arab Emirates (UAE) and participated in an air exercise with Mirage-2000-9 and F-16 aircrafts of UAE Air Force and Air Defence. The contingent landed back at Lohegaon Air Base on 13 Sep 08.

Aren't UAE F-16s flown by porkis?

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Sep 2008 20:58

Aren't UAE F-16s flown by porkis?

This doubt was discussed a lot in the earlier pages of this thread and the conclusion was : Pakis flying Arab AF planes is a modern day myth....

Anyways, even if they did, doubtful that UAE and Qatar(traditional friends of India) has Porkis on board, that "honour" being accorded to KSA and other ME states(IMHO)...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Sep 2008 21:07

they use a combination of retd western, predominantly US personnel and local chaps.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Sep 2008 21:29

Lalmohan wrote:
Rahul M wrote:they use a combination of retd western, predominantly US personnel and local chaps.
rahulm - pls send me a personal msg (as admin) and i will respond on one item off-line

Isnt what Rahul said correct?

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 19 Sep 2008 09:13

All UAE Block 60s are flown by Emerati boys themselves.

There are no Pakis nor Americans nor French fliers. These F-16 drivers were previously top of the group that piloted the Mirage-2000s.

To fly the Block 60, the selected group was sent to the USA (mostly to Luke AFB, Arizona ). The attrition rate was something that the instructors at Luke were not impressed and some of the boys who were more interested in acquiring Z-3s and picking up girls at night spots in Scottsdale were sent home.

I know of a few who were sent home who tried to get back into the program using their high powered connections to no avail. I guess the French instructors were swayed by this "string puling" but not the American instructors.

These cases did not mean that quality students were not available. These guys knew what their mission was and did their best to keep focus. Among them they usually had a "minder" to keep the group from straying. This is usually one who is the top among them. They stick to themselves whenever they ventured out of base.

It took some effort and patience before I "broke" into one particular group. Plenty of free nargilla, Hindi movies and beautiful goree belly dancing girls helped. Thing is the one I got through to was the "minder" of the group which made it easier. He became the minder after the original minder fell in love with a gorgeous bellydancer (a friend) and fumbled in his training and was sent home.

From my observations, the myth that Arabs cannot be trained to handle complex modern weapons system is a myth. The snafus we heard in the recent past was all due to laziness and general care free attitude. Education and motivation can churn out good candidates. This particular group was one such group. The "minder" I befriended did well and he now leads a squardron and I still keep in touch.

If and when we decide to take on Iran, such "friendship" would come handy.
Avram

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Sep 2008 12:17

In the early days of Red Flag, the RAF used to do very well because of the lo-lo-lo profiles of buccanneers and jaguars which the F16's and F15's found very hard to catch on the deck. If ever these mud movers got their noses up into some blue sky, they got thrashed. This was on Discovery some time back. In more recent times, the poor performance of the Tornado F3's in air-air was compensated for by more complex tactics used to draw out the fighter cover and go for the awacs in a fidayaeen attack - i.e. it was worth losing 10-15 tornados to take out an awacs - says something about the way unkil organises air battles, and many will have taken note, not least Unkil!

the great advantage of the Su30 is that post mud moving, it can hold its own and give plenty back if bounced by red air

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Sep 2008 14:38

Ved wrote:
ranganathan wrote:Paki air defences are rudimentary and not a big threat.
I wish!

The Pak defences are not rudimentary.
Many eyes were opened during the time of the Kargil ops.
Many hitherto unknown assets were "discovered"
The Gujerat border is quite innovatively defended.
With the American bonanza you can only imagine what else may have been done!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Sep 2008 15:36

i recall seeing crotale batteries on tv during the atlantique affair, also an Mi17 was 'painted' and had to take extreme evasive action - i think that was off a link on BRF. there were no ground features at all in that theatre to mask approaches or exits

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 19 Sep 2008 15:47

Lalmohan wrote:i recall seeing crotale batteries on tv during the atlantique affair, also an Mi17 was 'painted' and had to take extreme evasive action - i think that was off a link on BRF. there were no ground features at all in that theatre to mask approaches or exits

Wouldn't it be easier to conduct SEAD and Carpet Bombing in this theatre.A high speed ingress...bomb release...and egress.
Kaboom.The desert paras can be used to pinpoint enemy locations and paint high value targets.

The Pakis won't last very long and would lose assets faster than they can replace.They would also be wary of highly concentrated AD assets.

What I am really worried about is how well defended are we around Jamnagar and Naliya.Don't tell me we are fielding Pechoras there too.