IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Singha
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2008 08:54

for air defence/air superiority roles the fighter-AWACS "link16 type" datalink seems
good to have.

for DPSA missions you really dont want to depend on scarce awacs resources nor
tip the enemy off by having a awacs move to the edge of its area so the Gripen style
TIDLS thing seems good to have. damage assessments should be routable to airborne
relays (big a/c) for onward downlink to airbases or downloaded to airbase in a few
seconds on the way back even before it lands. ALCMs could release a floating camera
moments before it dives on target that relays some imagery and dies out...helps
to know latest picture.

hopefully IAFs new airborne dlink will cover both aspects.

M2000-5/9 has a system that can network upto 8 fighters.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby svinayak » 07 Nov 2008 09:09

negi wrote:FOD Issue:


2. Unlike the US and French we as of now do not have the capability to manufacture or even overhaul the Flanker's engine.

3.Potential grounding of an AC due to FOD , would mean IAF having to retro-fit a new engine under the prying eyes of the USAF , (its noteworthy that the video clearly suggests there is a lot about the MKI which USAF does not know ).

Lastly for arguments sake the very fact that USAF had to point out this goes to show they could not find any other grey areas to take pot shots at (like the widely covered fact about the Fulcrums smokey engines ,in the west).

No country will have a front line squad with this kind of dependability on foreign support. From a strategic view point that is a big vulnerability. It is very blunt information.

Country has to have total 100% inhouse made and supported weapon systems for long and sustained wars.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby George J » 07 Nov 2008 09:15

neerajbhandari wrote:Earlier there were reports of MKI engine damage prematurely and when IAF raised the issue with russia they were told to clean their runways. We know that MKI has inlet mesh to prevent FOD. So despite having the mesh, is MKI more succeptible to FOD? Since I am assuming that airbase maintainace was same for MKI and other aircrafts and other aircrafts didn't face the problem.


Not the MKI but the Su-30K
Vayu-Sena Tripod Page wrote:Servicability. In September 2003 and again in December of the same year, the local media reported that some of the AL-31Fturbofans had to be overhauled prematurely, after completing an average of "700 Hrs", instead of the advertised 1000. The cause of this was described as "nicks" in the turbofan blades, and the whole squadron was reported to be completely "grounded". The IAF dismissed these allegations as only rumours, but admitted that some engines had developed these problems in their blades. Unfortunately, the accuracy of media reporting can be questioned considering that simultaneously aircraft were appearing all over the country for aerobatic events in public events! In various interviews, IAF Chief ACM Krishnaswamy rejected the media reports as cynicism and stressed that blade nicks, which appear due to pebble ingestion, do happen and there is nothing unusual and specific to the sukhois. There were accompanying rumors that the IAF had even refused to accept a batch of SU-30MKI production, which were simply untrue.


negi wrote:2. Unlike the US and French we as of now do not have the capability to manufacture or even overhaul the Flanker's engine.


We have been making the AL-31FP since 2003/4 in the new Sukhoi Engine Facility at HAL Koraput. Unless HAL is lying.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sznat » 07 Nov 2008 10:45

Not to anything away from the IAF, i even had my suspicions about the results of first encounter at Cope India. Come to think of it I wonder if the yanks staged managed that as well. At that time, if I remember correctly, they were pressing the Congress for appropriations on budget for more F-22s. Then made "public" the less than good results of the exercise in India to drive home the point they need more funds to keep them ahead. As some one else mentioned, it was actually not the Indians who were thumping their chests.
The video seems like another one of those, a briefing by a fighter jock with his inflated ego to go along.
Whatever the case, you cant read too much into this. Too many restrictions were in place to start. In any case by his own admission, given time the IAF may best the F-15s in combat--again I suspect this is a piece to give more credence to request more $$$ for more F-22s.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby AdityaM » 07 Nov 2008 11:47

Cybaru wrote::D
Yanks afraid of mig-21's :)
If they can't see those bisons with AWACS and F-15 radars then PAF has no prayer in hell :).
Time to put stealthy Bison's to work ?? :)


They call them the flying coffins for a reason!
They fly for us
Are coffins for the others :)

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Bharadwaj » 07 Nov 2008 12:19

Thanks Shivji for sharing that-I guess some of us(me included) got too anxious at the (false) chest beating by the yanks. :(

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Bharadwaj » 07 Nov 2008 14:00

More on flight

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ricks.html


This may sound very silly but is this some sort of psy-ops to get us to show more in the next cope/red flag?

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Dileep » 07 Nov 2008 16:22

Hacking in through a data link is IMPOSSIBLE, unless you use PCs and Windoze as the platform. Remove that from the scare list. We don't want people see our code because we don't want to make it easy for them to do denial/spoof attacks.

The data rate is limited by the physical media, ie the symbol rate that can be achieved by the radio, in the presense of noise that can beat a MRI machine, and jamming that can cook a steak. So, you end up small bandwidth.

So what? You are simply passing numbers, not pictures. Even in A2G scenarios, why do you need the PICTURE? Isn't the vector enough? Where exactly you need the full SAR image to be transferred?

INCOM-1210A is MIL-1553 compliant. If the need comes, you can in fact interface a compatible radio unit and talk to NATO equipment.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2008 17:16

Where exactly you need the full SAR image to be transferred?

gripen marketing claims their laser pod can 'snapshot' the aftermath of an attack
and tidls link can beam back the imagery instantly to ereyie, ground stations or
even to other planes in the strike flying behind (yet to start attack run) so they
can know which targets are left and move accordingly.

as you know for lo-lo-lo work they have moved away from flying directly over
the runway tornado style with JP weapons to a fast moving mjoelnir gliding
dispenser that can be release a few km away distance wise and laterally.
keeps the attacker out of immediate manpad bubble.

for high level work the have all NATO munitions and Taurus ALCM for long
range attack.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vikram_S » 07 Nov 2008 23:21

@ singha, you dont need some tidls to beam images, nowadays all high resolution sar pods have dedicated downlink
they are preferred over fighter radars which have limited range in SAR and aspect angle limitation

@maitya

my point was that unless we knwo conditions of that specified bit/sec it is incorrect to speculate that a datalink is much better than b datalink
for best example how mcuh do we know about mki still compared to EF or Rafale where even screw change is widely advertised
this is why i asked you to see earlier NATO links which were transferring much more complex data between ships, aew&c (hawkeye) and fighters at same speed
like dileep said, that speed is perfectly adequate for coordinate transfer and radar update
for refresh rate all mki will be datalink to phalcon which has space for higher power transmitter amd faster refresh rate
what mki will do is share specific target data
that is all ie u attack 2 and 4 and i attack 1 and 3
you dont need to keep datalinking then you accelerate to attack and enagge your targets for which aall have to turn on radar
best part, mki has 4 mfd in WSO!! MKK has only 2

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby George J » 08 Nov 2008 06:38

Singha wrote:gripen marketing claims their laser pod can 'snapshot' the aftermath of an attack
and tidls link can beam back the imagery instantly to ereyie, ground stations or
even to other planes in the strike flying behind (yet to start attack run) so they
can know which targets are left and move accordingly.


All this is coming man...patience....it takes a lot of IT-Vity.

Speaking of IT-Vity one thing I recently learned about Bangalore based IT-Vity...all the REAL JINGO IT-Vity is done by women, very soft spoken unassuming armies of women. You guys really don't even hold a candle to them when it comes to Jingo IT-Vity all you IT-Vity guys only hang out on forum discussing inane things like which is better Nikon or Canon in ISO reduction.....while the women folks toil away on developing some really cutting edge work.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby hnair » 08 Nov 2008 06:42

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Final confirmation that it is indeed GJ - IT Vity gets what it deserves! :mrgreen:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Singha » 08 Nov 2008 11:17

:oops: :twisted: the sword of Khalid is sharp as ever...

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Purush » 08 Nov 2008 11:58

Horee Clap! GJman is back!
Welcome back mone :)

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Nayak » 08 Nov 2008 14:10

GJ-monay is back. I am terrified to use

* quote for the entire post
* coloring my posts so they look pretty
* underlines and bolds so that everybody looks at my post

:(( :(( :((

Btw to be exact is it Su-30 MK I or Su-30 MKI ? the extra space bothers me.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby UPrabhu » 08 Nov 2008 14:33

George J
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Kartik » 08 Nov 2008 15:24

UPrabhu wrote:George J
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:rotfl:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby JaiS » 08 Nov 2008 19:21

Thanks to Loke at Keypublishing forums for posting this link.

The DEW-Line

YouTube pilot identified

By

Stephen Trimble

on November 7, 2008 9:06 PM | Permalink | Comments (1) | TrackBacks (0)

Inside the Air Force has picked up this statement from Nellis AFB Public Affairs:


The YouTube videos "IAF SU-30 MKI Red Flag Lecture Part 1 & Part 2" were of Colonel Terrence Fornof, an F-15 pilot and the Director of the Requirements and Testing office at the United States Air Force Warfare Center, Nellis AFB, Nev., giving a private impromptu briefing in August 2008 to local Daedalians. The Daedalians are a group of retired military pilots. Col. Fornof did not mean to offend any U.S. allied forces, as he knows firsthand the importance of training with allied forces and the awesome firepower they bring to the fight. His comments during this briefing were his personal opinions and not those of U.S. Air Force Warfare Center or of the Air Force.



and,

A clue in the search for the YouTube pilot's identity

By

Stephen Trimble

on November 7, 2008 7:56 PM | Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBacks (0)


Thanks to Chi's comment on this blog, I was able to find the web site advertising the meeting where the anonymous YouTube pilot gave his now infamous Red Flag lecture.

Here's the online notice advertising the 24 September meeting of the Daedalians and the Thunderbird Chapter of AFA. Here's the link back to the site, but gaining access could be tricky. (I ended up having to google the URL, click on the cached page and play with the username/password box a few times. I'm actually not quite sure how I got it to work, so good luck.)

Monthly Meeting - 9/17/2008 6:45:54 PM

Fellow Daedalians,

The upcoming weeks will offer several events at Nellis AFB if you are interested. I have included some event notes below but first, let me tell you about the September 24 meeting.

We are joining with the Thunderbird Chapter of AFA to host a USAF Warfare Center panel to discuss "The Future Fight". After our dinner of London broil, Brig Gen Hoog will introduce the panel members, who then will discuss how the Warfare Center is preparing for the future fight today. After a short presentation, they will open the floor up for questions and answers. It should be a very informative presentation that you will not want to miss.

RSVP's for this event will be especially important to ensure the proper dining room set-up with our local AFA chapter, so please let me know if you are planning on attending.



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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 08 Nov 2008 19:26

From the above link..

The YouTube videos "IAF SU-30 MKI Red Flag Lecture Part 1 & Part 2" were of Colonel Terrence Fornof, an F-15 pilot and the Director of the Requirements and Testing office at the United States Air Force Warfare Center, Nellis AFB, Nev., giving a private impromptu briefing in August 2008 to local Daedalians. The Daedalians are a group of retired military pilots. Col. Fornof did not mean to offend any U.S. allied forces, as he knows firsthand the importance of training with allied forces and the awesome firepower they bring to the fight. His comments during this briefing were his personal opinions and not those of U.S. Air Force Warfare Center or of the Air Force.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: A full colonel, no less..making so many mistakes :rotfl:

They are right, even the Colonels in USAF are 'inexperienced', :rotfl:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby p_saggu » 08 Nov 2008 19:59

Looks like colonel sahib remembers Iron Eagle-2 more than his classified briefs about Soviet origin fighters, specially their engines and radars. :wink:
And he is not logging in to check out the various aircraft specs changes over the years.
What does the job description "Requirements and Testing office" encompass? Apparently his knowledge requirements are not adequately at threshold level as we've seen. :rotfl:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Tanay » 08 Nov 2008 21:48

Red Flag and SU-30MKI: the Podcast

I've posted this as a reponse, in the comments section.

Dear Stephen,

Ever wondered where this canard of "Indian Chest Thumping" came from?, as this is being oft repeated by one and all, and since it's fast becoming a part of the internet folklore, to advance their own agendas. Permit me..

Yes, it was by some posters on bharat-rakshak.com forums, who made an some obscure rhetorical comment, which was "highlighted" as some kind of the official stand of the Indian Air Force, by Scott Baldauf of Christian Science Monitor (Source and URL below).

I hope you and the other fellow bloggers, take the intiative and put this "canard" to rest.

-----
Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
November 28, 2005 edition
By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p01s04-wosc.html
-----


Guys chillout. No point going after anybody.. what's the point?. I'm starting to have doubts about where we are going with all of this. After all he had said what he had to say, the reason for me posting the video is to let the videos be seen , and commented upon by IAF "un-officially". And it appears that purpose has been achieved(wrt. Shiv's post). Too many players and too many intersecting agenda's at work (Scott if you are reading this, you should know what i'm talking about).

Same goes for the poor guy, on Youtube who had to delete his account, now we are outing his Youtube ID's. I hope that this business of outing stops and anonimity respected.

George Saab. Thanks for you warm comments (could you delete the youtube id please?) and good to see you back !! :eek:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby gogna » 08 Nov 2008 23:05

Bravo , Hats off to Mr Stephen Trimble for smoking him out.

Their is also a poll on the web site:-

Poll Link

In light of the F-15 pilot's critique of the SU-30's flying prowess, what's the best fighter?
SU-30MKI
F-22
F-15


Poll ends on:
14 November 2008
299 responses

So far the results

SU-30MKI 21%
F-22 72%
F-15 7%

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Jagan » 08 Nov 2008 23:21

I can soooo see George J making himself home at Gitmo... :rotfl:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Raja Bose » 09 Nov 2008 03:13

Hats off to GJ man and other B-R jingos in nipping this 'SU-30 is a whale crap' in the bud. Thankfully till now Indian press hasn't come up with juvenile 'clocks cleaned' stories either....one can only hope they will maintain such maturity and take a leaf out of IAF's book. :roll: . I would have lost of a bit of respect for USAF based on the video but it seems it was just a private meet between flyboys and the good Colonel is of course entitled to his opinion (just coz he is a FWS grad doesn't make him unbiased).

Wonder what type of 'enemy combatant' classification they will assign to GJ in Gitmo :(( :lol:

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby George J » 09 Nov 2008 03:44

I don't envy Col. Fornof or the position he has put the IAF in.

The IAF knows that it was a private gathering and privately people tend to say a lot of stuff, the real fault lies with the original YouTube poster, he should have known better.

What compounds the problem is the the fact that Stephen Trimble and co are not disputing ONE WORD of what he has said and thereby VALIDATED in print and on podcast what Col. Fornof has to say.

I think it would take a Vishnu Som officially asking someone from No.20 (not even AHQ) to comment on this story.

The IAF is in a pickle coz it would take nothing short of an official dismissal of Col. Fornof entire talk (thereby destroying the credibility of very senior USAF officer) to set the facts straight and that would mean that they would have to officially comment on many issues that they don't want to.

I mean can you imagine the IAF openly stating that USAF controllers were incompetent and that the allied pilots are too incompetent to comprehend their own technology data link info. This will seriously dent their relationship. I think the IAF might want to attend a couple of more Red Flag before they are ready to stage one of a similar caliber (remember its the next best thing to real combat). Even then we still want the USAF to come out and play with us.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Jagan » 09 Nov 2008 09:31

Okay guys, i have removed some posts to keep this focused. Lets not turn this into a stalking thread. :D

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby mohan » 09 Nov 2008 13:36

wow..George J, Singha, Kapchan, Jagan, acharya...this thread has brought up a lot of oldies...BRF looking up?

My thanks to Red Flag and the poor US Colonel.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby maitya » 09 Nov 2008 14:10

George J wrote:
maitya wrote:More details here: Polyot K-DlAE/K-DlUE
Plus, anybody has full subscription of Janes needs to go here Su-30 Polyot datalinks and post the relevant excerpts.


The MKI carries HAL INCOM1210A.
INCOM-1210A-Integrated Radio Communication System-ECCM Facility-Communication in AM/FM/Data/ECCM Mode

Sorry GJ, my bad, sould have known beter. :oops:

We did discuss this couple of years back here (alongwith the RC's of project Vetrivel) and Harry did say the INCOM developed for LCA would be used in the MKI's too. It was with 8kbps bandwidth then, maybe they have increased it now.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Aditya G » 09 Nov 2008 19:18

Am i the only one who hasnt seen the video till date? Can somebody pls upload to youtube? :((

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Aditya G » 09 Nov 2008 20:42

This is the Su-30MKI F-22 comparison video that was referred to by Col Fornof:

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=_za3KfMFKLk

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 09 Nov 2008 20:48

Aditya G wrote:Am i the only one who hasnt seen the video till date? Can somebody pls upload to youtube? :((

please check tanay's posts if you haven't already found them.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby George J » 10 Nov 2008 00:01

Sontu:

Beta you cant post crap about MKK and then assume the MKI sux based on that crap and then ask for clarification. That's not how it works, if the new and improved BRF does not consider that trolling then I donno what it.

Before you go back on a defensive you need to read the two posts 1) Shiv and 2) one that was passed on to me. Both these are from very reliable sources who cannot officially reply since this is NOT an official incident. Both of them know the MKI and the MKIs performance at Red Flag better than anyone any forum or even the USAF.

Both these sources have put the onus BACK on Col. Fornof to prove with ACMI data that the MKI was actually "dominated" or was in the position of having "his brains drilled out". Now there is a 400% possibility that USAF will NEVER oblige us and show us the ACMI data, so you are left with two choices, either believe whatever crap you read about the MKK and assume it applies to the MKI (when they are not even equivalent platforms). Or assume that there just maybe he another side of the story from equally qualified individuals and that's just about it.

Think about it:
Will the USAF officially acknowledge the incompetence of their controllers?
Will the USAF officially acknowledge the incompetence of their own pilots when it comes to fratricides in a data linked environment?

From the two posts that I have read, I don't think you have any intentions of learning anything you just want to make the point that the Chinese were very smart in not going for the TVC. It seems like you have already made up your mind, no one here has the time or inclination to change it for you.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby vivek_ahuja » 10 Nov 2008 00:10

Sontu wrote:Fine ..still what about the issue which he pointed out against Su-30 MKI is true ?

Heavy Plane---Thrust Vectoring issue --- WVR Combat in high subsonic speed ----Tail sliding downwards in post stall maneuvers--- and F-15 can shoot down SU-30 MKI (Drill the brains out of IAF PILOTS) EVERY TIME it goes in a WVR combat with MKI?


Is it just me or is this video thing being taken highly out of context?

Yes the good Colonel mentioned something about a supposed "weakness" of the Su-30 in TVC mode etc. But he also mentioned that it was only a matter of time before the Indians learned and covered the mistake up. Tell me one aircraft in the world that does not have any weaknesses anywhere. All aircraft have issues of some kind or another, and its up to the users to ensure they try to use their aircraft to their advantage. What it sounds to me is like people here are suddenly ignoring all other weaknesses of the F-15 against the SU-30 simply because the SU-30 seemed to have one issue that may or may not even BE an issue!!


JMT

-Vivek

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby p_saggu » 10 Nov 2008 02:08

Here it is once again:

George J's post
1. To say the USAF had the better of the IAF in 1vs1 needs to be substantiated. Since all exercises were with ACMI maybe the USAF would like to substantiate this claim of 'drilling brains out' and 'we dominated' with ACMI recordings.

2. The USAF had similar number of fratricide during the exercise as the IAF. Considering they are fully networked with datalink, IFF Mode 4 etc. which is a greater cause of concern? IAF fratricides or USAF fratricides?

3. The behaviour of the MKI in thrust vectoring is incorrectly described. Maybe someone who has actually flown against the MKI can do better justice, provided it’s an honest and unbiased assessment.

4. The IAF sustained operations 20000km away from home and had the least dropout rate. Prudence demands that safety procedures be adopted to enhance operations; could the engine operations be viewed against this backdrop?

5. Now consider this; the inexperienced IAF aircrew adapted so beautifully to the environment (that was totally alien), training rules (that were significantly different from IAF's), airspace regulations etc in a short span of two weeks, and yet somehow they were unable to exploit the jet in its envelope (something that they have been practicing to do for four to five years ) – does it sound convincing? If youngsters can adapt to new rules and environment in a short span of time, its only because they are extremely comfortable and confident of the machine and not otherwise. Also let’s not forget that this was the not the first outing of the IAF against the F-15 and F-16s. They have flown against these ac in the past and are aware of their capabilities. So doesn't sound convincing at all.


Shiv's Post:
On Ex Red Flag-the You Tube video- The other side of the Coin!!
Posted by: *** ***
Date: Wed Nov 5, 2008 11:51 pm ((PST))

These are comments by a friend of mine-one of our top grade professional youngsters, and a participant in the recently concluded Red Flag Ex in Nellis AFB.

1. No 1vs1s were flown during the Flag,nor did they engage in Thrust Vectoring(TV) then.IvIs were flown during the sorties in Mountain Home AFB and that too on the first day only! In none of these ex were the Su ever shot down or become vulnerable(This can of course be checked on the ACMI Pod films/casettes).

2.The data rates of turn and TV with regard to the Su is grossly out- the ones on the F-22 may be closer to the truth!! The figures for the Su are very much more than that referred to in the video!!

3.The Radar of the F-22 is superior to the Su presently!

4.Fratricide by our side did take place, more due to not being networked-it occurred when the AWACS was not available(u/s) and a very poor standard of controlling by USAF controllers( terminology and accent).This was mentioned in the debrief.Surprisingly, Fratricide was present for the F-15C as well as other allied A/C. Considering that they were better networked( Link-16,IFF-Mode 4 etc), while we had nothing,it should be a matter of concern for them and not us!!

5.FOD-Take-Off separation-was 30" at Mountain Home but extended to 1min and known to all participants before the start of the Ex!!

6.Incidentally,Mission achievement ratio was higher than 90%, whereas the mission success rates were significantly lower for the USAF, inspite of us op some 20000 kms away!!

7.Our level of experience was a standard Sqn cross-section and our youngsters performed very well in the new environment and not one rule was violated.Our professional approach was very favourably commented upon.

8. In the ultimate analyses, we had a significant edge all throughout and retained it.

It appears that this video was to pep up the US industry, showing that the F-22 is the answer to the Su-30MKI and one never knows-this will be the pitch for larger orders!!


PS: Both based on personal email communications :evil: Grr. Could I borrow your email passwords for a few days?

Raja Bose
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Raja Bose » 10 Nov 2008 02:11

SaiK wrote:if its not posted here earlier..
http://www.hulu.com/watch/24197/fighter ... n-red-flag

class A++ video


Good find! Highly recommended. (wheres the thumbs up emoticon when you need it?!)

Well.....over the last few days it was very very interesting to see that the effect of the good Colonel's video was not Indians saying resignedly that 'we are like this onlee....we will never be as good as them..chalta hai...since Colonel is USAF FWS whatever he speaks must be gospel and cannot ever be incorrect'. Instead we saw a quick rebuttal to the inaccuracies in the Colonel's talk and excellent analysis by the gurus here (not some blind everything that guy said is crap attitude either). Definite B-I-G positive shift in attitude and self-confidence. Great job B-R (esp. shiv, GJ, Jagan and co.)!! :D

Ofcourse the 'incompetence' or slip ups mentioned by shiv's friend are quite intriguing (wish they would reveal more details!! :mrgreen: )....just goes to prove: (a) Red Flag is really all it is claimed to be in terms of toughness; (b) USAF pilots are as prone to errors as pilots from more humble AFs and IAF pilot training is on par (if not better) with them (this is for you lurkers who keep putting the generic 3rd world nation rag-tag outfit tag on IAF and bunch it up with airforces like our dear neighbors to our east and west! :twisted: )

Mort Walker
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Mort Walker » 10 Nov 2008 02:13

Welcome back George! We really missed you.

p_saggu
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby p_saggu » 10 Nov 2008 02:19

SaiK,
Hulu video will not stream outside of the US. Please copy the video and post it on Youtube or rapidshare.

To everyone henceforth analysing the Colonel's redflag video, here are my pointers where you should start:
1. The colonel is lying outright in most situations, as proven by IAF pilots who flew at Red Flag.
2. The colonel is completely misinformed about hardware on IAF fighters. Then to use incorrect knowledge to form the basis for claims made by him is foolish.
3. The colonel glosses over comparitive preformance of the USAF legacy jets vis a vis the MKI where the MKI is alleged to have preformed poorly. The answer to this is not difficult to arrive at. The F-15 and the F-16 would probably not last long against a MKI.
4. The IAF was not networked. They had to rely on IMHO Poor / Biased controllers in AWACS, still IAF performed outstandingly when compared to fully networked USAF fighters (who also ended up killing friendlies despite being fully networked !)

sunilUpa
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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 10 Nov 2008 04:19

The video showed much more than that. After Copeindia 04 leak, many oracles went great length to explain DACT and we fanboys are like school kids and real flyers are nothing like that...

Guess what, the real flyer, (a full colonel at that) was not much different than the fanboys. It also showed that there are 1vs 1 even in DACT.

It was interesting to see that the good Colonel didn't bother to share the finer details of restrictions under which MKIs were operating.

It was really revealing, destroyed many myths. Now every time an oracle opens his mouth, I can shove this video right in...

Juggi G
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 12 Nov 2008 07:16

Indian Express
‘Sukhoi 30 outshone in US Aerial Exercise’
Manu Pubby
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 at 0108 hrs IST

New Delhi, November 10 : In what could prove to be a major embarrassment for the Indian establishment, an assessment by a US Air Force (USAF) pilot who participated in the Red Flag joint exercise in Nevada in August claims that the SU 30 MKI, India’s most modern aircraft, performed poorly in comparison with its US counterparts. The Su 30 MKI was outshone by US Air Force pilots and lost in one on one aerial combat with the older generation F 15 fighters, the review which was put up on a video sharing website last week, claims.

While the USAF officer in the video has not been identified, he appears to be a combat pilot of the rank of Colonel. He says that the Indian pilots suffered from a high fratricide rate, the term used for friendly kills, and had problems with the Sukhoi engines that were vulnerable to foreign object damage.

However, the Indian Air Force (IAF) said that the Sukhoi’s held their own against Ace Pilots of the USAF and Maintained a High Serviceability Rate throughout the Exercise. For the Record, the IAF has not Commented on the Outcome of the Red Flag Exercise. “Our Pilots were Functioning on a Stand-Alone basis while the USAF pilots were Part of a Network and were getting Inputs on Navigation, Target Information and Enemy Details. We were Getting all our Inputs Manually and were Fighting Fit even against All these Odds,” a Top IAF Officer said.

The USAF pilot says that the much touted thrust vectoring system of the Su 30 MKI’s, which gives the fighter a high degree of agility in close aerial combat was also beaten by F 15 pilots who used their combat experience with the F 22 Raptors to find a flaw in the Indian fighter. Explaining the manoeuver in detail, the pilot says that the USAF tapped a vulnerability in the thrust vectoring system but the Indian Pilots would soon find a way of rectifying the flaw.

Senior IAF Officers however say that SU 30 MKI pilots were More than a Match for their US counterparts and were Fighting against all Odds Even when the French team was Grounded for most of the Time during the Exercise.

“The US pilots at Red Flag were the Best of their Lot. From Our Side, a Regular Squadron with a Mix of Experienced and New Pilots had gone. Above that, the US Forces were Part of a Network and were Even Getting Feedback from Space Assets,” a Senior Officer said. He added that the Sukhoi’s had the Best Serviceability Record at the Exercise and Spent more Time in the Air than their French and South Korean counterparts. “We had a Serviceability rate of above 90 percent. There is no question of foreign object damage to the engines. We had a tyre burst on the runway but it was changed within minutes by our ground crew,” the officer said.


India marked it first-ever presence in the prestigious Red Flag exercise and crossed swords with the the French Air Force (with Rafale fighters), South Korean Air Force (with F-15 Ks) and the US Air Force with their F-15s and F-16s. IAF, which participating with eight Su-30s, two IL-78 tankers an IL-76 aircraft, spent close to Rs 100 crore on the exercise, termed as the world’s toughest aerial combat exercise.

‘Sukhoi 30 outshone in US Aerial Exercise’

Baljeet
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Baljeet » 12 Nov 2008 07:52

Juggi Sahib
Indeed good post, I am disappointed by the reaction of so called Senior IAF Officers as quoted..I seriously doubt any senior IAF officer will post a comment like that it sounds little defensive aka "skills are questionable". As far as I know and I do know some senior IAF Officers they just laughed at this media report. The reality is we can hold on our own against the latest and the greatest in the world. In case of real war with the latest and greatest-it will not be walk in the park for "id iz ia bestern teknology".


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