IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Raja Bose
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 12 Nov 2008 11:58

Will these DDMs stop paraphrasing articles from the web and publishing it as their own. Or perhaps do a bit more research (maybe even read B-R for change!) and check if the facts are even correct....the whole thing has been conclusively rubbished yet in the last week or so yet we see junk like this published in our newspapers to be gleefully quoted by various people in brain dead fora in coming days and months.

Juggi G wrote:Indian Express
‘Sukhoi 30 outshone in US Aerial Exercise’
Manu Pubby
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 at 0108 hrs IST

New Delhi, November 10 : In what could prove to be a major embarrassment for the Indian establishment, an assessment by a US Air Force (USAF) pilot who participated in the Red Flag joint exercise in Nevada in August claims that the SU 30 MKI, India’s most modern aircraft, performed poorly in comparison with its US counterparts. The Su 30 MKI was outshone by US Air Force pilots and lost in one on one aerial combat with the older generation F 15 fighters, the review which was put up on a video sharing website last week, claims.

While the USAF officer in the video has not been identified, he appears to be a combat pilot of the rank of Colonel. He says that the Indian pilots suffered from a high fratricide rate, the term used for friendly kills, and had problems with the Sukhoi engines that were vulnerable to foreign object damage.

However, the Indian Air Force (IAF) said that the Sukhoi’s held their own against Ace Pilots of the USAF and Maintained a High Serviceability Rate throughout the Exercise. For the Record, the IAF has not Commented on the Outcome of the Red Flag Exercise. “Our Pilots were Functioning on a Stand-Alone basis while the USAF pilots were Part of a Network and were getting Inputs on Navigation, Target Information and Enemy Details. We were Getting all our Inputs Manually and were Fighting Fit even against All these Odds,” a Top IAF Officer said.

The USAF pilot says that the much touted thrust vectoring system of the Su 30 MKI’s, which gives the fighter a high degree of agility in close aerial combat was also beaten by F 15 pilots who used their combat experience with the F 22 Raptors to find a flaw in the Indian fighter. Explaining the manoeuver in detail, the pilot says that the USAF tapped a vulnerability in the thrust vectoring system but the Indian Pilots would soon find a way of rectifying the flaw.

Senior IAF Officers however say that SU 30 MKI pilots were More than a Match for their US counterparts and were Fighting against all Odds Even when the French team was Grounded for most of the Time during the Exercise.

“The US pilots at Red Flag were the Best of their Lot. From Our Side, a Regular Squadron with a Mix of Experienced and New Pilots had gone. Above that, the US Forces were Part of a Network and were Even Getting Feedback from Space Assets,” a Senior Officer said. He added that the Sukhoi’s had the Best Serviceability Record at the Exercise and Spent more Time in the Air than their French and South Korean counterparts. “We had a Serviceability rate of above 90 percent. There is no question of foreign object damage to the engines. We had a tyre burst on the runway but it was changed within minutes by our ground crew,” the officer said.


India marked it first-ever presence in the prestigious Red Flag exercise and crossed swords with the the French Air Force (with Rafale fighters), South Korean Air Force (with F-15 Ks) and the US Air Force with their F-15s and F-16s. IAF, which participating with eight Su-30s, two IL-78 tankers an IL-76 aircraft, spent close to Rs 100 crore on the exercise, termed as the world’s toughest aerial combat exercise.

‘Sukhoi 30 outshone in US Aerial Exercise’

Jagan
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Jagan » 14 Nov 2008 05:14

Raja Bose wrote:Will these DDMs stop paraphrasing articles from the web and publishing it as their own. Or perhaps do a bit more research (maybe even read B-R for change!) and check if the facts are even correct....the whole thing has been conclusively rubbished yet in the last week or so yet we see junk like this published in our newspapers to be gleefully quoted by various people in brain dead fora in coming days and months.

Juggi G wrote:Indian Express
‘Sukhoi 30 outshone in US Aerial Exercise’
Manu Pubby
Posted: Nov 11, 2008 at 0108 hrs IST

New Delhi, November 10 : In what could prove to be a major embarrassment for the Indian establishment, an assessment by a US Air Force (USAF) pilot who participated in the Red Flag joint exercise in Nevada in August claims that the SU 30 MKI, India’s most modern aircraft, performed poorly in comparison with its US counterparts. The Su 30 MKI was outshone by US Air Force pilots and lost in one on one aerial combat with the older generation F 15 fighters, the review which was put up on a video sharing website last week, claims.

While the USAF officer in the video has not been identified, he appears to be a combat pilot of the rank of Colonel. He says that the Indian pilots suffered from a high fratricide rate, the term used for friendly kills, and had problems with the Sukhoi engines that were vulnerable to foreign object damage.

However, the Indian Air Force (IAF) said that the Sukhoi’s held their own against Ace Pilots of the USAF and Maintained a High Serviceability Rate throughout the Exercise. For the Record, the IAF has not Commented on the Outcome of the Red Flag Exercise. “Our Pilots were Functioning on a Stand-Alone basis while the USAF pilots were Part of a Network and were getting Inputs on Navigation, Target Information and Enemy Details. We were Getting all our Inputs Manually and were Fighting Fit even against All these Odds,” a Top IAF Officer said.

The USAF pilot says that the much touted thrust vectoring system of the Su 30 MKI’s, which gives the fighter a high degree of agility in close aerial combat was also beaten by F 15 pilots who used their combat experience with the F 22 Raptors to find a flaw in the Indian fighter. Explaining the manoeuver in detail, the pilot says that the USAF tapped a vulnerability in the thrust vectoring system but the Indian Pilots would soon find a way of rectifying the flaw.

Senior IAF Officers however say that SU 30 MKI pilots were More than a Match for their US counterparts and were Fighting against all Odds Even when the French team was Grounded for most of the Time during the Exercise.

“The US pilots at Red Flag were the Best of their Lot. From Our Side, a Regular Squadron with a Mix of Experienced and New Pilots had gone. Above that, the US Forces were Part of a Network and were Even Getting Feedback from Space Assets,” a Senior Officer said. He added that the Sukhoi’s had the Best Serviceability Record at the Exercise and Spent more Time in the Air than their French and South Korean counterparts. “We had a Serviceability rate of above 90 percent. There is no question of foreign object damage to the engines. We had a tyre burst on the runway but it was changed within minutes by our ground crew,” the officer said.


India marked it first-ever presence in the prestigious Red Flag exercise and crossed swords with the the French Air Force (with Rafale fighters), South Korean Air Force (with F-15 Ks) and the US Air Force with their F-15s and F-16s. IAF, which participating with eight Su-30s, two IL-78 tankers an IL-76 aircraft, spent close to Rs 100 crore on the exercise, termed as the world’s toughest aerial combat exercise.

‘Sukhoi 30 outshone in US Aerial Exercise’



Actually its good that the reporter chose to report this story. Isnt this exactly what GeorgeJ was advocating? that our local press pick up the story and then get official-yet-unofficial validations from the IAF - only then will the foreign observers believe it. Because regardless of how many emails and anonymous sources we quote (..my chicha is a paan wala outside lohegaon and he said....) it is only reports that are published in the MSM that will get airtime.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Jagan » 14 Nov 2008 05:18

Baljeet wrote:Juggi Sahib
Indeed good post, I am disappointed by the reaction of so called Senior IAF Officers as quoted..I seriously doubt any senior IAF officer will post a comment like that it sounds little defensive aka "skills are questionable". ".


what exactly was so disappointing?

if you mean "Our Pilots were Functioning on a Stand-Alone basis while the USAF pilots were Part of a Network and were getting Inputs on Navigation, Target Information and Enemy Details. We were Getting all our Inputs Manually and were Fighting Fit even against All these Odds" there is nothing defensive about it. he was stating the facts that the sukhoi pilots were getting the information over the airwaves via the controllers and not thru the HUD which the USAF forces had.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 14 Nov 2008 08:19

Jagan wrote:Actually its good that the reporter chose to report this story. Isnt this exactly what GeorgeJ was advocating? that our local press pick up the story and then get official-yet-unofficial validations from the IAF - only then will the foreign observers believe it. Because regardless of how many emails and anonymous sources we quote (..my chicha is a paan wala outside lohegaon and he said....) it is only reports that are published in the MSM that will get airtime.


I hope GJ is right but I am not too confident that IAF will take the bait (unless you have some undar ki baat we are not aware of :mrgreen: ). These new reports on SU-30 performance in Red Flag are exactly like the juvenile 'clocks cleaned' articles written by DDM after Cope India. In that case also, I dont recall IAF issuing any strong statement whatsoever. Hence my pessimism (hope to be proved wrong). And none of the participant pilots can open their mouth unless they have permission from above who probably need permission from above them who probably are too busy to care about some USAF colonel shooting his mouth off on YouTube.

[rant]As for the DDM it seems the only 3 keys most of our new english reporters know how to use are 'Ctrl', 'C' and 'V' (do they teach nothing in journo schools or do all bright boys and girls rush to engineering and only the brain dead go to study journalism?!).[/rant]

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Nov 2008 12:44

i saw the video and frankly i dont understand what is the fuss about. is it something to do with societal differences on how one expresses oneself and how much freedom people are accorded to express themselves? and i dont think there was anything derogatory about the iaf..

he clearly said

a) MIG 21 Bison is 'one son of a bitch'... very lethal..becsue of a small radar cross section, good jammer, good missiles etc.
b) the IAF pilots who came to RF were a mixed bunch just as USAF pilots who went to india as a possible reason for lop sided results in 1:1
c) SU 30 was not networked like other AF's.. and so there was a limitation..issue about fratricide
d) will surely learn as they get more exp with SU 30.
e) IAF was very professional..

I am really curious to learn which specific portions sounded offensive

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby geeth » 14 Nov 2008 12:47

>>>and had problems with the Sukhoi engines that were vulnerable to foreign object damage.

oooh! I didn't know Goras sand blast their engines regularly, and no foreign object can damage their engines.

To me it all appears to be psyops. Confirmed with the publication in unkeel's lapdog Indian Gupta who doesn't brush his teeth.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 14 Nov 2008 12:55

manjgu wrote:i saw the video and frankly i dont understand what is the fuss about. is it something to do with societal differences on how one expresses oneself and how much freedom people are accorded to express themselves? and i dont think there was anything derogatory about the iaf..

he clearly said

a) MIG 21 Bison is 'one son of a bitch'... very lethal..becsue of a small radar cross section, good jammer, good missiles etc.
b) the IAF pilots who came to RF were a mixed bunch just as USAF pilots who went to india as a possible reason for lop sided results in 1:1
c) SU 30 was not networked like other AF's.. and so there was a limitation..issue about fratricide
d) will surely learn as they get more exp with SU 30.
e) IAF was very professional..

I am really curious to learn which specific portions sounded offensive

why don't you have a look at the redflag thread in the archives ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Nov 2008 13:16

geeth.. on the FOD issue , he said that indians were probably cautious since they need to send engines to Russia for repairs.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby geeth » 14 Nov 2008 13:32

>>>geeth.. on the FOD issue , he said that indians were probably cautious since they need to send engines to Russia for repairs.

I am talking about the 'vulnerability' part ...they talk as though foreign objects won't damage their engines....

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Nov 2008 14:20

Geeth.... I will surely listen in once again carefully on this aspect.

I am no avaitor / avaition engineer but is it possible that the design / configuration of intakes / engines etc in one plane makes it more prone to FOD damage or are the Americans taking some other precaution to reduce FOD??

In the video he said that intitally spacing between takeoffs was 60 seconds and then reduced to 45 seconds.. how was it achieved?

also curious to know what exactly is done on the runway in these 60 seconds? to reduce possibbilty of FOD.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby geeth » 14 Nov 2008 15:06

Nothing is done rather than allowing the dust to settle down. Civilian aircraft though have some time allowance between flight take offs to avoid the succeeding plane getting into the wake of the previous plane. I am not saying SU 30 has the best design for prevention of foreign particles from getting into the engine. If Sus are more prone, there may be some design aspects which they didn't want to compromise or something like that...No need to project it as a major issue, particularly after a friendly exercise. That's my point.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Nov 2008 15:27

Geeth ... 2 points....

a) So it is possible that under Indian conditions ( with more dust) 60 sec was found to be sufficient for dust to settle down .... and that indians were just taking precautions as per indian experience. Is this time lag for all aircrafts in indian inventory or just the SU 30?

b) How was it reduced to 45 seconds?
-----------------------
He did say that from a Red flag POV that takeoffs should happen much faster... but that a workaround to that was found and implemented. ( how did you conclude that it was projected as a big issue??)

I dont know but how important is this time interval during actual combat... maybe someone else can shed some light. ?? is this a real issue..

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Nov 2008 15:48

i meant is this time lag / interval important in a war situation ... .

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby AdityaM » 17 Nov 2008 23:35

Someone in their wisdom locked the RedFlag thread, now where do we post the follow-up details ???
Anyways, following is the Teasers running at the bottom of HeadlinesToday in bold:

USAF Mocks IAF
USAF apologises to IAF Team leader for the comment
IAF complains to youtube, US embassy
USAF says they are an individuals views
USAF says: Go fly elsewhere
USAF says: They thought they could be part of coalition, but we proved them wrong
F22 is better than SU30......blah blah..

So the media has finally caught scent of this....I can foresee CPM wallas taking out anti US dharnas for this.
But point to note is....is this the first time anyone mentioned that US apologised?

This was followed by 2 more:
MIG23 crashes in WBengal
MiG27 crashes

I dont know if either of the above 2 are correct....hope none are

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Jagan » 18 Nov 2008 08:42

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/11/ai ... s-red.html

Hits the MSM

US pilot ridicules Air Force top guns

Avideo on the Internet shows US F- 15 pilot making fun of the IAF

By Shiv Aroor in New Delhi

THE Indian Air Force has found itself grappling with a mortifying diplomatic tangle that it did not foresee.

Following the recent landmark Red Flag Nellis multination air exercises in Nevada in September — to which the IAF pilots were invited in their Sukhoi- 30 fighters to participate for the first time ever — a US pilot happened to brief a gathering on the results.

Nothing out of the ordinary. Except, a video of the briefing found its way onto the internet.

The video, that has spread via video site Youtube, depicts the American Lieutenant Colonel- rank F- 15 pilot candidly ridiculing Indian Air Force tactics, equipment, training and battlefield awareness to an audience that laughs and claps in response.

A red- faced Vayu Bhawan formally sent a complaint to Youtube about the offensive nature of the video, but after briefly disappearing from the Youtube database, the offending clip is back in circulation.

Top IAF sources told Headlines Today IAF vice- chief Air Marshal P. V. Naik, who visited Nevada to witness the prestigious exercise, apparently felt the whole video affair was too “ demeaning” to take up in a big way.

Fortunately for the IAF, about a week ago the public relations officer of the Red Flag exercise wrote unilaterally and formally to the IAF’s Red Flag team leader Group Captain Deepak Chaudhary, apologising profusely for the rogue comments of the F- 15 pilot featured in the video clip.

The letter went on to clarify that the comments made in the video were the personal opinion of the officer himself and did not reflect on how the US Air Force viewed its Indian counterpart. But that’s cold comfort for a service that feels, in the words of one of the Indian pilots at Red Flag, “ angry and irritated”. Unofficially, another IAF officer called the comments in the video “ condescending, arrogant and unnecessarily conceited — totally uncalled for changing room chatter that should have been confined to the barracks”. For example, commenting on the IAF’s operational requirement to space out tak

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby George J » 18 Nov 2008 09:55

:rotfl:

Tanay the un-cooked ones will now be on your case. YOU are the cause of it all. We are totally innocent.

Either Shiv Aroor has added his own masala like the IAF requesting USAF to pull the video, or the IAF is really got ants in its pants.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Philip » 18 Nov 2008 10:42

The "Ugly American" displays his true nature yet again.I saw the offensive video.It is not what the (white) USAF officer said from the rostrum,but the manner in which it was said.His tone and style was clearly racist and judging from the hoots of laughter in the room that accompanied his barbs,ridiculing the IAF and other air forces that took part,it smacks of the racist,jingoistic "let's kick everybody's ass" attitude that plagues the American armed forces and why they are in shit street in both Iraq and Afghanistan.They just think themselves so bloody superior to everyone else on the planet.

Before we go off the handle (no need to really ,if you know what Uncle Sam's men in uniform most often think of the rest of the world),let's look seriously at what was said from an objective angle.Was he speaking the truth,or just shooting his mouth off deliberately as part of a US propaganda exercise,which cannot be ruled out.From the claims made by the speaker,which are being featured in several media and specialist journals,the large size of the SU-30MKI made it easy to pick up on radar by USAF F-15s and F-22s.He mentioned that it was tactics that won the day for the USAF and that the IAF could remedy the However,the speaker also said that it was easy to jam USAF missiles and get inside the defensive perimeter by small IAF MIG-21Bisons,which couldn't be picked up by US F-15s and F-16s,the MIGs were also erroneously said to have Israeli radars (Russian actually,IAF clarified).Also mentioned was that the USAF did not have enough missiles and that dogfighting finally decided much of air combat.The same fact was also picked up by the Rand Corp. wargame where US aircraft lost the plot against Chinese aircraft in a projected Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

The Israeli air force places great emphasis upon dogfighting skills of its pilots,as missiles cannot provide a "magic bullet" everytime.They are also expensive and in a war scenario,inventories run out quickly.Numbers of aircraft matter too.From the Red Flag feedback,if correct,the need remains for a small, versatile and inexpensive fighter in the MIG-21 class,which the Tejas/LCA was supposed to replace.A few years ago,Shiv and I both said on BR that the best replacement for the MIG-21 was the....MIG-21! This was because the LCA's induction was nowhere on the horizon.The statement by the American will have its repercussions on the MMRCA contest as well.Here the French Rafale with its new AESA radar ,is touted to be the best in its class in the latest Flight Intl. mag.In a recent exercise where it was using its radar only in the passive mode,a target was shot down without the aircraft switching on its radar at all.The MIG-35 with 3-D TVC is widely acknowledged to be the most versatile in close air combat (barring the Harrier),with its BVR/AESA radar capability a question mark as it is still under development,but should be available during the contest trials.With this latest spat,it looks like these two aircraft will be the favourites,with the Gripen the dark horse.

While firefighting is going on to defuse the offensive remarks about the IAF,the cutting remarks once uttered will remain in the memory for many years and will definitely draw much criticism from those who are worried about the "love" affair between MMS and the US,particularly in the defence arena,if this is the attitude -that Indians are inferior to Americans and must play second fiddle in global matters.For those who have been longstanding critics of the US and its defence establishment,the temptation to say "I told you so" is very strong.

Here is some interesting news about the MIG/Sukhoi merger,which will also have a bearing upon the 5th-gen project,where India is a partner,apart from ongoing orders.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... migsu.html
A November revolution at MiG/Sukhoi
By Stephen Trimble on November 17, 2008

Multiple Russian sources are reporting an earth-rattling shake-up at the top leadership ranks of legendary aerospace powerhouses MiG and Sukhoi.

Sukhoi General Director Mikhail Pogosyan will get the top job also at deeply indebted MiG, Vladimir Karnozov reports at Flight. Karnozov told me later that Pogosyan was seen on MiG's premesis on Thursday chairing a working meeting.

The move could allow Pogosyan to oversee a joint Sukhoi/MiG effort to develop and produce a fifth-generation fighter -- the PAK FA. Of course, he'll have to start by digging MiG out of its $2 billion hole of debt, a condition aggravated by a lost MiG-29 sale to Algeria over workmanship complaints.
Here's Vladimir's story on FlightGlobal.com:

Russia's United Aircraft (OAK) is to create a single combat aircraft division by merging its RSK MiG and Sukhoi units under the leadership of Sukhoi boss Mikhail Pogosyan.

To date, OAK's combat aircraft strategy has tasked MiG with development of light fighters including the MiG-35 and unmanned aircraft, along with modernisaton of in-service MiGs, while Sukhoi has been developing the Su-35 and PAK FA fighters.

In 10 years as head of Sukhoi, Pogosyan has ditched several programmes to concentrate on what he called "real breakthrough" projects such as the all-new Superjet 100 regional jet. A key Pogosyan achievement has been to bring Western risk-sharing suppliers into the Superjet effort, including Snecma, Liebherr, Thales and B/E Aerospace, along with Alenia, which is Sukhoi's 50/50 joint venture partner in the marketing and sales organisation, Superjet International.

RSK MiG, on the other hand, never recovered from the crisis that hit Russian aerospace following the collapse of the Soviet Union. MiG-29s have sold in small quantities since then, thanks largely to the huge parts stock built up during the Soviet era. It has been able to certify the MiG-29SMT/UBT and MiG-31BM, and has flown Indian navy MiG-29K/KUBs and MiG-35s.

An encouraging Algerian order for 34 MiG-29SMT/UBTs turned sour when the country sought to return 15 of the aircraft, delivered in 2007, claiming poor manufacturing quality.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby vina » 18 Nov 2008 11:14

manjgu wrote:geeth.. on the FOD issue , he said that indians were probably cautious since they need to send engines to Russia for repairs.


I frankly cannot understand what the fuss about that entire video was. That video was a "macaca" moment,locker room bluster and swagger that unfortunately got on to the internet. I think everyone is smart and mature enough to understand that and laugh about it over a beer in the mess.

Frankly, this is just another attempt by the attention 'hos like Shiv Aroor and the other reporter to get some attention. It is just another piece of sensationalism like "Man bites dog" in an attempt to get more eye balls and sell more of their junk.

That apart, this FOD issue is real, both with the Mig-29s and also the SU-27/30 series. The issue is to do with the design of the airframe, the location at which the engines are placed and especially the intakes. This design is vulnerable to FOD , especially to fine dust and stones and other stuff that can get sucked in to the intakes from the muck thrown up by the front wheels. In other designs, intakes are in front of the air wash from the nose wheel and not suck in debris.

That is probably why the Mig 29 prominently has FOD doors and louvers on top of the intake, with the louvers open during taking and FOD doors down, covering the inlet and then opened out after take off and louvers closing. The downside is that the FOD doors and other mechanism take up internal space and cut down on fuel capacity, cutting down the already poor fuel fraction of the Mig 29. I think the later versions of Mig 29 like SMT and K etc, leave out the FOD doors and increased internal fuel.

But now , you have to sweep the runway clean of any FOD kind of stuff space out take offs like the 1 minute thing they were talking about in the video.

I dont know if the SU-30 has FOD doors. Maybe it does.. Given the massive internal fuel capacity, it can have it without cutting down the fuel fraction too much.

JMT and all the rest of the ususal disclaimers.

All in all, I think the Red Flag was a good experience for the IAF. They do need to go up there with the best and get their brains drilled out once in a while . How else will you learn otherwise ?.

ps - I think the USAF , especially the Elmendorf and other F-15 fighter jocks got a serious beating in Cope India and were smarting under it. The got a lot of stick within the fighter community in the US surely, esp for getting whupped by something as "basic" as a Mig 21. The F-16 jocks must have really rubbed it in. I think it was now their turn to gloat after getting a few kills on the SU-30..

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 18 Nov 2008 11:23

That apart, this FOD issue is real, both with the Mig-29s and also the SU-27/30 series. The issue is to do with the design of the airframe, the location at which the engines are placed and especially the intakes. This design is vulnerable to FOD , especially to fine dust and stones and other stuff that can get sucked in to the intakes from the muck thrown up by the front wheels. In other designs, intakes are in front of the air wash from the nose wheel and not suck in debris.

That is probably why the Mig 29 prominently has FOD doors and louvers on top of the intake, with the louvers open during taking and FOD doors down, covering the inlet and then opened out after take off and louvers closing. The downside is that the FOD doors and other mechanism take up internal space and cut down on fuel capacity, cutting down the already poor fuel fraction of the Mig 29. I think the later versions of Mig 29 like SMT and K etc, leave out the FOD doors and increased internal fuel.

vina, both the fulcrum and the flankers are very rugged aircraft that are designed to be able to operate from underprepared runways, unlike western a/c.
I think IAF was just being extra cautious as it didn't want to blow up the huge amount of $$ it had invested to participate in RF by damaging an engine and thereby not being able to operate that a/c.
IAF would have looked the fool if it had acted TFTA and had actually missed an a/c.
I don't think flankers are any more vulnerable than western a/c, less so actually.

later fulcrums don't have the louvres.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby vina » 18 Nov 2008 11:40

Rahul M wrote:vina, both the fulcrum and the flankers are very rugged aircraft that are designed to be able to operate from underprepared runways, ..

Fulcrums maybe, not Flankers. Fulcrums would have been based in the front line forward airbases, while the far bigger, more expensive and better spec'ed out Flanker would have bases with pretty decent facility me thinks.

Rahul M wrote:I don't think flankers are any more vulnerable than western a/c, less so actually.

later fulcrums don't have the louvres.


Well, then the "later fulcrums" wouldn't be as rugged as the older ones in terms of FOD resistance. In this case, you would need good run ways and regular vacuuming with those machines (the kind that sweep the streets) and stuff like sufficient time between take offs to play safe.

The fulcrum and flanker design , with engines so low and close to the ground and intakes in the back, behind the wash of the front nose wheel is inherently prone to FOD damage to a greater extent than "conventional" designs., I think.

Just check where the intake is and the nose wheel is for an F-16 as an example of chin inlet airplanes and F15, 14, Mirage 2k , Tornado etc for a normal side inlet..

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby neerajb » 18 Nov 2008 11:49

In the context of FOD thingy, I would suggest people to watch "Top Gun Over Moscow" by Jeff Ethell. It's a nice documentary depicting the difference between american and russian operating environment (airbases) and the differnt design philosphies.

Added later : Vina, The documentary is a must watch for you :) . It shows the metal scrap littered airbase of Kubinka from where Russian Knights Su-27 operate.

Cheers....

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby viveks » 18 Nov 2008 13:15

that video should not have been released. It was never intended to be a public knowledge about what a pilot at USAF thinks. Well...now its been shown all over TV....what a waste.....
In any case,....whatever that guy said...he would not have said it off-hand. Su-30 is no match against Raptor...even though it behaves similarly in the air. Raptor is a class of its own...boys.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby manjgu » 18 Nov 2008 13:28

vina.. i agree with you completely.. much ado about nothing... i dont believe that it was a deliberate / well calculated ... he was quite effusive in praise for IAF... and in the sequence where he talked of 'drilling ...etc' he said that it was the less experienced pilots who got caught.. .

viveks.. would like to know how did you conclude that .."even though it behaves similarly in the air"??

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Bharadwaj » 18 Nov 2008 13:32

viveks wrote:that video should not have been released. It was never intended to be a public knowledge about what a pilot at USAF thinks. Well...now its been shown all over TV....what a waste.....
In any case,....whatever that guy said...he would not have said it off-hand. Su-30 is no match against Raptor...even though it behaves similarly in the air. Raptor is a class of its own...boys.

I swear I am trying to hold back ..... but i failed..... . The raptor offers such bang for buck that its future is as certain as that of my investments......for the price of 1 craptor you get 10 su-30s. 183 raptor vs 1800 su-30s-I know which side I'd rather be on.....

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Nayak » 18 Nov 2008 13:40

Investing in a sweeper machine shouldnt be a problem no ? Regular sweeping intervals would ensure that runway is kept clean. Hopefully IAF should have invested in those machines.

Coming to the video, it was supposed to be a 'my-dong-is-bestest-and-biggest' private show which was leaked on to the web. IAF should quietly rebut it in public and let it die a natural death. Prasoon chor Gupta and his ilks will try to get maximum eyeballs by quoting 'anonymous' IAF officials and indulging in verbal diarrorhea.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Lalmohan » 18 Nov 2008 14:58

I strongly support the much ado about nothing/storm in a tea cup line of thought - many of us on the forum were too touchy and now DDM probably reading this forum have joined the touchy bandwagon to create sensation and sell papers

get over it folks

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Sanku » 18 Nov 2008 15:28

Nayak wrote:Investing in a sweeper machine shouldnt be a problem no ? Regular sweeping intervals would ensure that runway is kept clean. Hopefully IAF should have invested in those machines.


IAF has sweeping machine -- but a pass of sweeping takes time and thats what the crib seems to be.

I want to chime in and agree with Lalmohan and others in a storm in tea cup route.

BTW one more point; I dont know how true the following is.

the price of 1 craptor you get 10 su-30s. 183 raptor vs 1800 su-30s-I


Assuming 1 raptor == 10 Su 30; For a Sqn of any aircraft -- you need 1 at least on base (say); thus for 10 Sqns of any aircraft you will need 10 bases.

Thus one base of raptors == 10 bases of Su 30 (or 6,7 whatever) -- thus to achieve the same expense on a/c you will need more base infra expense.

Now while 1 Raptor = 10 Su 30 is a hokey ratio chosen arbitarely by me; the point I am trying to make is that beyond a scale pure numbers start bring in other associated costs which might not be captured in either per unit price or even per unit price with lifecycle costs.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby venkat_r » 18 Nov 2008 16:30

One of my first reactions after seeing that video on BR was, this is going to muddy the recent friendship that has been building up and just gives fodder to all the people who opposed such an exercise and so much expenditure on this participation. There is simply no way IAF (or any other AF) can match US because of their advancement in technology and the amount of $$ they can muster up and the options that they possess.

But, just to look at the bright side, with this piece receiving some publicity now, some professional pride is going to be at stake next time IAF is going to exercise with USAF or any other AF. A bit of friendly rivalry and chest thumping does not hurt during these peace times. It is good to know that IAF pilots has evoked some raw emotions in USAF pilots which prompted that talk anyway. Interesting times ahead.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby gogna » 18 Nov 2008 17:32

gogna wrote:Bravo , Hats off to Mr Stephen Trimble for smoking him out.

Their is also a poll on the web site:-

Poll Link

In light of the F-15 pilot's critique of the SU-30's flying prowess, what's the best fighter?
SU-30MKI
F-22
F-15


Poll ends on:
14 November 2008
299 responses

So far the results

SU-30MKI 21%
F-22 72%
F-15 7%


Here is the final result

Su-30MKI beats pants off of F-22

End Result

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Philip » 18 Nov 2008 17:40

The "1 Craptor vs 10 Sukhois" argument is exactly what the Rand Corp. study discovered,that the Chinese defeated the US in a Taiwan invasion wargame, simply because the ultra-expensive Raptors were too few in number,carried too few missiles as well and were outnumbered by very capable Chinese SU-27s,which are inferior to Indian SU-30MKIs.The fact is that the US has yet to fight against a capable enemy or major power.It simply chooses countries with smaller armed forces hoping to finish off the enemy swiftly.Sadly,in Vietnam,Iraq and Afghanistan,it was soundly defeated or is losing the plot and the war to even irregular forces like the Taliban and Iraqi insurgents!


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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby neerajb » 18 Nov 2008 18:13

In its 2009 budget submitted to Congress earlier this month, the White House approved multiyear plans to buy 183 of the stealthy new fighters at an estimated $140 million apiece. Many Air Force officials, however, continue to insist they need 381 of the F-22s to deter global threats.


http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb/15 ... airforce15

The article also suggests that 400 million USD meant for shutting down F-22 assembly line may be syphoned off to fund four addittional Raptors. So Raptor is around 140 million per unit and taking 50-60 million USD for each new MKI, 1 Raptor ~ 3 MKIs.

Cheers....

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vishnu » 18 Nov 2008 18:15

I have seen and read everything on this. As the only Indian journalist there for any period of time ... I can assure all of you that the Indian Air Force was decisively ahead of all forces competing. It now seems I need to put perspective on that statement ... something I will do as soon as possible with as much detail as possible.

So ... as they say ... watch this space ... and you will not have to watch for too long ...

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Bharadwaj » 18 Nov 2008 18:22

neerajbhandari wrote:
The article also suggests that 400 million USD meant for shutting down F-22 assembly line may be syphoned off to fund four addittional Raptors. So Raptor is around 140 million per unit and taking 50-60 million USD for each new MKI, 1 Raptor ~ 3 MKIs.

Cheers....


Neerajji there are plenty of figures floating around for the raptor but 60 mil for mki? I remember reading something closer to 20 million.
Edit: The 20 million figure I read appears to be rather ancient :oops:
Last edited by Bharadwaj on 18 Nov 2008 18:45, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Anshul » 18 Nov 2008 18:31

Vishnu i hope we can get more detail on this documentary.Some animation will be welcome.This will really add to the punch.
TRP considerations kill documentaries.We the jingos end up gulping diluted content.Your docu on Red Flag was apt,well packaged and all aspects covered(Garuds etc).But thats something that we already know.The IAF docu wasn't meant for the ordinary viewer.It was meant for us.We would really like to know something that we don't.I always feel cheated when i open "The Times of India".All they do nowadays is surface skimmimg.No investigative journalism...no surprises...nothing new.I assume you can coax the IAF brass and get some more meat.We are looking forward to an kick@ss docu from NDTV.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Ankur » 18 Nov 2008 18:32

Gogna ,

Thanks Man,

The third video proves that the US Congress was correct in their reasoning of getting F22 , as they were scared by Su 30 MKI.

In Addition, keeping that the US instructor was speaking in a gathering of US Pilots and would not like to discourage them , by scaring them off by more combat skills of the MKI on a whole. He has pointed out few of the points where they faired better in overall fight.

But one thing i feel from his whole lecture, was that , he now Respect IAF and Su 30 MKI. Getting to a entirely new area and Zero errors in defined parameters is an excellent job done by Young + Experienced pilots of IAF.

It was funny, how he spoke on French pilots, hiding in back, fire and run away from the fight... ( Seems to me TSP Style)

Thanks again for sharing the links.

Best Regards,
Ankur

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby sum » 18 Nov 2008 18:51

Vishnu wrote:I have seen and read everything on this. As the only Indian journalist there for any period of time ... I can assure all of you that the Indian Air Force was decisively ahead of all forces competing. It now seems I need to put perspective on that statement ... something I will do as soon as possible with as much detail as possible.

So ... as they say ... watch this space ... and you will not have to watch for too long ...

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV

Yipee...
Amazing things that the USAF colonel has managed to achieve:
1. Get George J back on BR!!!
2. get Vishnu to go full monty on our(IAF) efforts at red-flag.

Cheers to the the colonel.

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Vishnu » 18 Nov 2008 18:56

Hi Anshul ... this is information which I will post once I compile my facts. Not a documentary. My documentaries will always be for a larger audience. TRPs dont matter beyond a point to me but we dont run a social service either ! For the BRF audience ... most of my documentaries will essentially be picture stories. For a larger audience ... they may be seen as packed stories on a technical story. Also .. there is nothing terribly investigative in this story ... just facts on a very specific subject which may interest people like you and me.

But yes, there will be plenty of new stuff ... like why the Indian Air Force was not allowed ... at all ... to use the datalinks between the Sukhois, the true score of the 1 v 1 encounters, the reality of turn rates and what the true professionals of the USAF think about the IAF ... not those who resort to locker room conversation in a public forum.

Thanks Vishnu

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby neerajb » 18 Nov 2008 18:59

Bharadwaj wrote:Neerajji there are plenty of figures floating around for the raptor but 60 mil for mki? I remember reading something closer to 20 million.
Edit: The 20 million figure I read appears to be rather ancient :oops:


Press Trust of India
Posted online: Thursday, April 12, 2007 at 1417 hours IST
.
.
While a new Su-30 MKI costs $40 million.


http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=84717

Malaysian MKM deal was 900 million USD for 18 aircrafts so that comes to 50 million a piece and the new Su-35 is estimated at close to 60-65 million USD. So I guessed the latest price to be around 50-60 million USD.

Cheers....

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Re: IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Postby Rahul M » 18 Nov 2008 19:28

Vishnu wrote:.....................
But yes, there will be plenty of new stuff ... like why the Indian Air Force was not allowed ... at all ... to use the datalinks between the Sukhois, the true score of the 1 v 1 encounters, the reality of turn rates and what the true professionals of the USAF think about the IAF ... not those who resort to locker room conversation in a public forum.

Thanks Vishnu

:eek:
wow ! I'll have some sleepless nights now, waiting for that post !
cheers vishnu !

bhardwaj and neeraj, the initial quoted figure was $ 34 mn. with the goodies that IAF keeps adding and the last excalation the price will be around $ 40-45 mn, with the HAL built birds being on the lower side.


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