Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Bala Vignesh
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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Bala Vignesh » 26 Jun 2010 18:39

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
Slightly Offtopic but you guys need to checkout this Spotter - http://www.flickr.com/photos/33104187@N ... 7/sizes/o/ Image

Ok... Wow... How come bombs like that don't make an appearance in Aero India...

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Misraji » 26 Jun 2010 19:16

With all due respect,

Could we get back to the title of this thread please?
If there is nothing new to be posted about Garuda, then let the thread die out.
These diversions are really annoying.

Every-time the thread is updated and somebody visits the thread, its with the expectation
about reading something about the Garuda exercise and not about anything else.

Thanks and regards,
Ashish

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby VishalJ » 27 Jun 2010 06:52

Image

Image

Patrick Cusack
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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Patrick Cusack » 27 Jun 2010 09:48

Wonder if they turned on the highly sensitive radar?

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Singha » 27 Jun 2010 13:02

its established SOP for countries to run their radars in low power "navigational" mode only. there are probably passive EW devices under every haystack in the exercise area to gather details to be shared among all of NATO.

the singaporean F-solahs had no such restrictions ofcourse , nor the 2000-5 which feature the same radar to be used by our 2000H upgrade deal already signed.

in op red flag video you can even seen remotely controlled boxes filled with dummy rockets that simulate manpads and AA where the F-panrah's come and unload bombs....thats the extent of networking possible.

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby AdityaM » 27 Jun 2010 14:22


jamwal
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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby jamwal » 27 Jun 2010 14:59

Similar image here
http://monimag.eu/upload/478/2010_06_22 ... 000051.jpg

I agree with some posters here, F-16 looks horrible

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby krishnan » 27 Jun 2010 16:26

They are talking about singaporean F-16

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Vashishtha » 27 Jun 2010 19:39

http://monimag.eu/upload/480/2010_06_22%20...%20000054.jpg
lol,
if mirages had rear view mirrors then this would be a frightening sight, wouldn't it??:)

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby jamwal » 27 Jun 2010 20:21

^^
link not working

Marten ji,

Link I posted was in response to the post above. F-16 had nothing to do with it

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Misraji » 27 Jun 2010 21:01


Misraji
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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Misraji » 27 Jun 2010 21:06


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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Misraji » 27 Jun 2010 21:11

Some excellent snaps of RSAF F-16s at WAFF forums.
Link: WAFF - Exercise Garuda

~Ashish

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Craig Alpert » 27 Jun 2010 22:02

WHY is it that SU-30 MKI's Engine look like they are smoking???

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby parmeet » 27 Jun 2010 23:26

Is it just me or there are too many 'minor hiccups' mentioned in the link? Is it a normal thing even when assets fly overseas for exercises?

http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/show_p ... ?pg_id=268

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Jun 2010 23:49

parmeet - any aircraft operation is full of minor hiccups all the time, even civil aircraft which fly very high hours. these are highly complex machines and there are thousands of things that can and do go wrong all the time. the report sounds like it was written by someone who has been looking at the log and doing a bit of non-creative writing!

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby naird » 28 Jun 2010 03:54

Craig Alpert wrote:WHY is it that SU-30 MKI's Engine look like they are smoking???



Actually i have seen quite a few videos where Su's have smoky engines...is there a problem here ?

SU 35 video - note the part from 0:50 to 1:00...


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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby shiv » 28 Jun 2010 13:58

naird wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:WHY is it that SU-30 MKI's Engine look like they are smoking???



Actually i have seen quite a few videos where Su's have smoky engines...is there a problem here ?


Yes indeed there is. One engine of one of those Sukhois smokes more than the other 3 engines put together.

Also on takeoff - the AB flame in one engine is an unhealthy yellow unlike the healthy blue you see in our MKIs

Could be food poisoning or indigestion. But then I'm only a doctor - everything looks like a nail when you have a hammer in your hands.

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2010 10:02

Singapore F 16s going home..6 of them took off noisily over Bengaluru 3 minutes ago..

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Sagrawal » 03 Jul 2010 13:45

shiv wrote:Singapore F 16s going home..6 of them took off noisily over Bengaluru 3 minutes ago..



Yes I heard the F-16 roar this morning and counted 5, I guess I missed out one.

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Austin » 03 Jul 2010 16:21

Thats the old Su-35 with canard , I have seen couple of videos of Russian and Western aircraft smoke under certain conditions ( but not all as we saw with old Mig-29 ) , so it has to do something with weather.

I remember Vishnu Som report at BRF on Mig-29K where he did mentioned that some of the smoke seen on 29K with RD-33MK was due to peculiar weather condition.

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Singha » 03 Jul 2010 18:05

the 707 AWACS also smokes visibly in a youtube clip showing takeoff from nellis in clear weather.

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby arthuro » 05 Jul 2010 13:44

news :

Garuda IV: Su-30MKI and F-16D in the French sky

Air&Cosmos 2225 via http://www.inosmi.ru, July 5


For the first time the Indian Su-30MKI and Singaporean F-16D Block 52 "Plus" train in the French sky along with Mirage 2000 and Rafale F3.

A rare and impressive sight. The fourth Franco-Indian exercises Garuda (the second time held on the territory of France) gave the Indian Air Force another chance to demonstrate all its capabilities. Six Su-30MKI 8 , accompanied by two Il-78MKI tankers and transport Il-76MD flew from their base in Bareylli to the French air base 125 at Istres, to take part in an exercice, from 14 to 25 June , which take place every two or three years, alternately in India and France.

This year the exercise was expanded: first joined the BA 115 (Orange), 6 F-16D "Plus" (Block 52), of the RSAF 145 Air Squadron , accompanied by a tanker KC-135R of 112 Squadron. A total of 180 crews from India and 120 from Singapore . French Air Force were represented by 5 Mirage 2000-5F from 1/2 "cigogne" squadron and 4 Mirage 2000C/RDI from 2 / 5 "Ile de France" squadron with the support of C-135FR tanker unit 2 / 91"Bretagne".

Opening

Gen. Bruno Clermont from the Department of External Relations of the French Air Force explains: "Combining the 3 modern air forces, which have high-tech fighter planes, making these exercises one of the most important events for the French Air Force." Furthermore, neither India nor Singapore are NATO members, which allows pilots to practice French in various elements of the battle outside the traditional patterns.

"In this regard, the exercise does not use any of NATO strategy , that gives participants a certain freedom in the preparation and conduct of operations." Such an opportunity to go beyond the standard training alliance falls pilots rarely. "For us it is also a way to make an optimal use of precious flying hours," adds General Clermont. According to his Indian colleague, Marshall K. Nohvara, participating in training operations on another continent is for the Indian Air Force "is a real challenge and the opportunity to train together with experienced pilots in a different philosophical and ideological level, climate and more restricted airspace." This view is shared by Singaporeans who have been trained by American standards, which in some parameters differ significantly from NATO. The purpose of these "long-term strategic partners," is to learn different combat tactics, which is especially important since the planned participation of Singapore in operations in Afghanistan.

Scripts

The leadership of the exercice was entrusted to Jean-Paul Clapier,[...]. Was also created a system of video communication between the bases of Istres and Orange. The development of plan for trainings was conducted by the representatives of three countries for a period of two weeks. As a result were created scenarios of different complexity, calculated not only for the most experienced pilots.

The parties first agreed that "all participants will only use their available weapons system". In other words, they must be "honest" to use means of detecting and tracking targets, and fight in accordance with their real possibilities. The idea was to come as close to real conditions in missions of interception, fire support and tracking using the latest generations of fighters. At the same time in the most complex scenarios in each camp provided a mixture of aircraft of all three parties.

The first week of the exercise (weather conditions were frankly unfavorable) was devoted to study the area and in air battles exercices 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 and 4 vs 4. Pilots of the 2/5 squadron were accompanied by the Su-30 MKI, and 1/2 by the F-16D at an altitude over 3000 meters. Better weather in the second week allowed to approach the fulfillment developed by the National Air Operations Center in longer and more complex missions (an average of 90 minutes at a frequency of 8 flights daily), in which have been engaged up to 20 fighters, supported by tankers and E-3F and E-2C radar planes. The tasks included air combat, interception, escort Transport (C-130 and C-160) and destruction of ground targets for the F-16D and MKI with the participation of Mirage 2000N and Rafale, to which was often assigned the role of enemy units (wrong traduction, rafale served as "plastron" = targets). The zone for these complex operations has been the center of France (TSA.43), west of Perpignan, south of Montpellier (TSA.41 and 46) and Delta 54, which allowed (in the west of Corsica) to fly at low altitudes in the precise conditions of compliance with security measures.

The confrontation of the operational standards of participating countries has improved the mutual understanding and established interaction between French and foreign crews.

As pointed out by Colonel Clapier, "this cooperation best reflected the operational capabilities of the armies of the member." Interaction between parties can be divided into three components: "good preparation, active conducting of operations by the management, as well as precise planning meetings and briefings". Nevertheless, it remained to solve another problem. How to restore the motion of the fulfillment of assignments of the mixed troops? On the French side the answer of course was the local system of training and reconstruction mission SLPRM (approx. per. Used for operations planning, coordination of pilots in their implementation and subsequent debriefing). For Indian and Singapore sides it was necessary to improvise in the view of the availability (F-16D) or absence (Su-30MKI) of such equipment. As in 2005, the problem was solved with the help of GPS installed on the E-3F program Otaris, which records the route from the indications of radar. Together these two methods allow a detailed analysis of missions, as well as to determine by extrapolation the place of the entry of the majority of rockets.

In spite of the variations of the weather, the ten days exercise was carried out around 430 scheduled flights, which, according to General Clermont, is "a very serious figure, and yet here is attributed hundred sorties in the supplementary program." In addition, two involved in the teachings of the French squadron was carried out in parallel with them and their own training. The French pilots previously had to deal only with the Su-30K, and are now able to much better acquainted with one of the best aircraft of its generation, the Su-30MKI.

Power

All participants were impressed by the skill of Indian pilots, by the work of the powerful N011 Bars radar with a range of 100 nautical miles and also by the engines AL-31FP (13 tons) with a thrust vector control (13 tons). Did not remain unnoticed the wide spectrum [range?] of the anti-aircraft armaments of these aircraft: Russian R-77, similar to the U.S. guided medium range missile AIM-120 Amraam; infrared-guided R-27 , R-73 - the most modern Russian short-range development for close battle. Every Su-30 MKI can bear up to fourteen missiles!

It were the weapons (of course simulated) with which the french pilots have had to deal, opposing them Mica EM / IR (Mirage 2000-5F and Rafale F3), Super 530D and Magic 2 (Mirage 2000RDI). And as a whole they believe that everything went very well. Of course, recognizes the pilot Mirage 2000-5F, their powerful radar allowed them to recognize earlier the situation in the sky, but radar is not everything.

Especially because the Su-30 can not be called a "discreet" aircraft, in contrast to the much more inconspicuous Rafale. We are talking about a complex system, whose main elements are quite detection and concealment. From this point of view, even the Mirage 2000C RDI and its radar with the NTCR function does not hit the face in the dirt. One cannot fail to speak also about the Spectra system of protection and warning established on Rafale, which aims to identify threats to 360 ° around the plane in active or passive mode. It also suppresses the waves around the plane, which hampers its location even with the aid of the most powerful radar.

In addition, Spectra is an excellent data collection system with the possibility of transmission of tactical data via link L16. Indian and Singaporean crews took into consideration this system for calculating the "fair use" of weapons, not using available Su-30 and F-16C jammers.

Training

Although the primary objective of the exercises was to develop team action within them, Air combat exercices were also carried out. As expected, the advantage of "dry" proved their power and maneuverability, although the Indian pilots did not come to use of vector thrust. Despite its overwhelming superiority in climb (300 meters per second) and speed (Mach 2.3 at 11,000 meters), the Su-30MKI suffers greatly from its large mass (39 tons), which to 1,5 tons more than in Rafale and to 2,2 tons exceeds the weight of mirage 2000C. In fact, in dogfight the Mirage appears more "leaping", but in any case, as say the French pilots, the advantage should be seized in the first minute.

In view of the changing nature of potential threats in their areas of influence , the Indians and Singaporeans do not make the acquisition of new tankers in their priorities. The fact is that both the F-16D and the Su-30MKI have considerable flight range without refueling. In the first case, this is due to fuselage fuel tanks [CFT], which give such opportunites to the American fighters . Nevertheless, despite the superficial similarity, F-16 Block 52 + should not be confused with the F-16 Block 60, having greater power and less fuel consumption. F-16 Block 52 + is often called "intermediate" link in the development of the Fighting Falcon. This aircraft has a significant disadvantage in the weight / power ratio, which imposes severe restrictions at altitudes above 6,000 meters. Nevertheless, this machine is an excellent multipurpose Weapons Platform (air-ground, air-air) through the external suspension Litening and Lantirn.

Expansion

In fact, Singapore's 145 Squadron is the first air fire support unit. Nevertheless, they are trained to all forms of combat, according to French pilots, "demonstrating a surprising ability to adapt." There is also such a quality with the Indian pilots, "who are learning more and more NATO standards (...) and are characterized by seriousness and composure in battle, as well as the friendliness and affability in communion. In general Garuda IV was an exceptional event in terms of variety of weapons systems and national standards. It is necessary to note an expansion of "bilaterial" doctrines on new partners and allies, and also being an integral part of doctrines commercial questions[?]. As said general Clermont, the French Air Force wants to fully integrate its Rafale in the future Garuda, to be held in India in two or three years. Germany, for its part also expressed willingness to participate in these exercises with their Typhoon. One of the "essential elements" of the Franco-Indian cooperation could become, thus, a sort of Pandora's box.

The commercial side of the issue

During Garuda IV some Indian military had the opportunity to occup the seat of second pilot during Rafale flights . With growing competition with US- the French fighter is one of the bidders participating in the Indian program of multi-purpose combat aircraft. In addition, the primary task of Dassault and other French suppliers is to sign a contract for the modernization of fifty Mirage 2000H of the Indian Air Force. There are other perspectives for French aircraft industry. First of all is the organization of training and the supply of equipment in connection with the entering into India of the new radar aircraft (IL-76 / Phalcon) and interest to the French experience in the preparation and analysis of operations.

The French and Singaporean air force are now near the signing of an agreement to extend for 20 years the flight school in Cazaux (WB 120). This summer, Singapore must also decide on the replacement of its TA-4SU Skyhawk with a new training aircraft. Among the candidates , one should highlight the promising Korean T-50 Golden Eagle, and Italian M.346 Master, which in many countries in Europe comes to replace the present generation of aircraft for training advanced air combat techniques. The importance of choosing the Singaporean side for France and its partners is due to the possible prospect of large-scale training programs.

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby parshuram » 05 Jul 2010 14:37

Why is the comparison made between Rafale and MKI, when Rafale even did n't participated and that too on the account of things that can be compared anywhere based upon specs ..

Just a frencho tactic to pitch Rafale for MRCA , I beleive

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby arthuro » 05 Jul 2010 14:42

new report from DSI

In fact the rafale did not participate directly but served as "red targets" along with mirage 2000N.

Garuda 2010 : Rafale participated

DSI, July 2

If, during the press trip on the Istres base on June 23 were on parking only 6 Indian Su-30, Mirage 2000 RDI from 2/5 "Ile-de-France, 2 indians Ilyushin II-78 and 1 KC-135R from Singapore; the base of Orange, however, welcomed for the first time 6 Singaporeans F-16 , 5 Mirage 2000-5 and ... 3 Rafale. They did not have ongoing involvement in the exercises, but some Indians were able to fly them on the rear seat, and they were used sporadically to play the "attacker". At a time when France is continuing its efforts to sell the Rafale to India (though Paris is in a position of outsider facing Moscow and Washington), and when their number is still counted in the territory, their presence was not an accident.

The fourth edition of Garuda (the first had made the cover of DSI, 2005) which until now gathered up the Indian and French air forces, welcomed for the first time the Singaporean Air Force. "For a rendez-vous of excellence," they explained. Two nations , not NATO members, leaving some autonomy in the conduct of operations, since no Nato strategy forced the trainings.

The objective of Garuda is to improve interoperability of different crews in air defense exercises mainly, in some ground attack exercises, in refueling (Il-78 refueling Mirage, etc..), and at the end of the exercise, in what is called COMAO (Composite Air Operation: multiple aircraft deployments). "Each one finds its interest there on knowledge of materials, men and tactics" explained a 2000 RDI pilot .SU-30mki are a generation ahead of 2000-RDI (payload, quality of sensors), but the French pilots (from 2000-5) assured they played their cards right in "beyond visual range" fighting, admitting that some of them have fought in "within visual range" battle, for which the SU-30 thrust vectoring and the range of its radar, they estimate at "a good hundred nautical mile", obviously play in their favor ...

Nevertheless, in the context of such exercises, exact comparisons are impossible because the missions created for the exercice are necessarily tactically unbalanced to get after a quality training. "If we were using our weapons in the best conditions, knowing that we are all, in debriefings, hiding the performance of our equipment, there would inevitably shadow areas" explained a pilot.

Incidentally, a small air defense lesson delivered by a 2000-5 pilot : "To measure the maneuverability of the aircraft, it is necessary that everyone see each other. There are not many conditions to come in within visual range battle. The good hunter is not the one who engage on equal terms ... it's a murderer who kills in the back, who plays of the trick. The goal is to move as close as possible to the enemy radar (a radar, whose beam is similar to a cone, the more you are far, the more you see. The more you approach, the more the angle is poor. So the goal is to pass under the cone. At 10 nautical , the area scanned is smaller than at 40 ...). The goal is to play with the range of adverse party weapons, to pass under the radar cone with a so confused situation that data links do not provide a pilot the information that another aircraft is passing below him ... "

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby VishalJ » 23 Aug 2010 00:40


Gaur
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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby Gaur » 23 Aug 2010 00:46

Vishal Jolapara wrote:14 June 2010, Orange-Caritat - http://www.fly-by.nl/Gallery/2010/South ... rt%203.htm

16 June 2010, Istres-Le Tubé - http://www.fly-by.nl/Gallery/2010/South ... rt%204.htm

Thanks a lot for the link. The second link is most interesting as its the only garuda 2010 gallery I have seen that shows the participation of Rafale. Except for an article scan posted here which talked about Rafale participation, we had no other confirmation for the same.

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Re: Air Exercise Garuda 2010 in France

Postby andy B » 23 Aug 2010 06:44

X post onlee :mrgreen:


Air Intl June issue


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