Exercise SINDEX: IAF and RSAF

daulat
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Postby daulat » 15 Oct 2004 19:59

shiv - i agree with you 400% onlee, however i was getting increasingly hacked off with esteemed colleagues ranting on and on about pilot failure, ground crew failure blah blah - all dhimmi style failures of short dark rice eating IAF onlee and so wanted to present some plausible mechanical failure scenarios

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Postby Shalav » 16 Oct 2004 11:30

Unlike car engines, the word "stall" is used for aircraft behaviour and not engine behavior


Actually turbine engines do "stall".

The compressor blades on turbine engines are mini airfoils and if the airflow over them is disturbed enough they are unable to provide enough air to the HP stage. When this happens the high pressure air from the HP stage partially escapes through the LP stage and the engine stalls. Further the same disturbed airflow may also cause the compressor blades to "stall", resulting in compressor stall.

Some known causes of engine stalls are
i) ice
ii) FoD
iii) ingestion of debris / smoke / ash
iv) tail slides

above list is not exaustive.

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Exercise SINDEX: IAF and RSAF

Postby Ved » 16 Oct 2004 17:33

Kartik wrote:it does'nt speak well for the ground staff at all. period. the very fact that a couple before this one had suffered from landing gear problems meant that the Mirages should have been inspected thoroughly. after all, these are among the most expensive fighters in the IAF inventory. no excuses can be made for any kind of negligence on the part of the ground staff.

There's something we should all realise - the schedule of inspections, fault diagnosis and rectification which our aircraft routinely go through are pretty thorough, by any standards. This was a hitherto unknown engine fault, where the engine flamed out on close to the base-leg position, leaving the pilots no option but to eject. The fault was NOT a compressor stall, but (this is just an indication at the moment) maybe something to do with the engine automatics. However, it's all speculation till the COI findings are complete.

Incidentally, the Mauritius prang was pilot error, plain and simple. No excuses there, and pretty stern action was immediately meted out for committing one of the oldest faults in fighter flying - landing with undercart up!

Raju

Postby Raju » 16 Oct 2004 17:38

Well, what about some real information on Exercise Sindex. Haven't we spent enough time already fulminating over the crash ??

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Postby Jagan » 16 Oct 2004 18:24

Well nothing much seem to be coming out in the press rgarding Excercise Sindex - So whats left to discuss?

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Postby shiv » 16 Oct 2004 19:19

Jagan wrote:Well nothing much seem to be coming out in the press rgarding Excercise Sindex - So whats left to discuss?


A relatiive of mine - in the Air Force was here on leave about a month ago and I spoke of Cope India. He told me that thet whole thing was supposed to have been "hush hush" etc etc.

I laughed my guts out and asked him to look at this forum and see how much open source info was coming from US sources.

This conversation happened around the time of Cooperative Cope Thunder and I told him how Aircraft enthusiasts gave us a series of photos from every leg.

Things became a little silent in South Africa. And this exercise - it's like it's not happeneng at all. :eek:

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Postby Singha » 16 Oct 2004 19:38

the IAF's approach has more or less been the same. The yankees hired this guy with a nikon D1H , the south africans being more SDRE had some photos and looks like singaporeans have no PR at all. :roll:

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Postby SaiK » 16 Oct 2004 19:54

daulat wrote:sometimes mechanical problems cannot be spotted by regular inspections. you learn from costly mistakes in aviation. if its a hairline crack in a bolt that is not normally visible, no ground crew guy is going to spot it.


perhaps BARC can help in finding the invisible cracks. they have already deviced it and i am sure IAF must be using it.

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Postby Arun_S » 17 Oct 2004 03:34

krsna: You must be kidding. Find crack on a bolt that is mounted :x
Last edited by Arun_S on 17 Oct 2004 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ved » 17 Oct 2004 06:42

shiv wrote:A relatiive of mine - in the Air Force was here on leave about a month ago and I spoke of Cope India. He told me that the whole thing was supposed to have been "hush hush" etc etc.
:eek:


Maybe he meant something else, or was talking about a particular aspect. The IAF had a press conference towards the end of the Ex at Gwalior, and the media had free access to roam around, sit in a cockpit, and meet/talk informally to personnel of both AFs. Perhaps he was talking of certain aspects only, that's always there.

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Postby Jagan » 17 Oct 2004 07:31

Ved wrote:
shiv wrote:A relatiive of mine - in the Air Force was here on leave about a month ago and I spoke of Cope India. He told me that the whole thing was supposed to have been "hush hush" etc etc.
:eek:


Maybe he meant something else, or was talking about a particular aspect. The IAF had a press conference towards the end of the Ex at Gwalior, and the media had free access to roam around, sit in a cockpit, and meet/talk informally to personnel of both AFs. Perhaps he was talking of certain aspects only, that's always there.


There is no question the IAF does a good PR job of inviting the Press and allowing interaction with the pilots and engineers. But typically all the reports (cope india related ones in particular) never mention on the actual outcome of the exercise, how it was carried out , the results etc.

In this case the details and the results were reported by the American Press, after the Yanks went home. And it is probably this kind of info or detail that Shiv's relative was trying not to share, which is understandable.

The only other time that we came to know of some of the results was when Vishnu Som of NDTV told us on the progress of Excercise Garuda with the French. Some sketchy info on cope thunder is there. But try searching for results of the South African Exercise and the current Sindex, we come up with very little.

I think, the BR crowd here is more interested in specifics - 'How many did we shoot down'? 'How many of ours got lost?' ' Were our raids sucesful'? 'Did our Jaguars evade their fighters?' etc.

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Re: Exercise SINDEX: IAF and RSAF

Postby Jagan » 17 Oct 2004 07:38

Ved wrote: Incidentally, the Mauritius prang was pilot error, plain and simple. No excuses there, and pretty stern action was immediately meted out for committing one of the oldest faults in fighter flying - landing with undercart up!


Ved,

Matter of curiosity - Isn't this a very rare occurence - Pilot forgetting to lower Undercarraige? I dont remember reading any news reports of incidents from the 70s till date.

Though I remember reading one story of a MiG-21 pilot forgetting to raise his undercarraige after take off and continuing flying after that.....

Maybe they are all unreported as the ac would have been recoverable in most cases.

Jagan

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Re: Exercise SINDEX: IAF and RSAF

Postby Ved » 17 Oct 2004 20:33

Jagan wrote:Matter of curiosity - Isn't this a very rare occurence - Pilot forgetting to lower Undercarraige? I dont remember reading any news reports of incidents from the 70s till date.
Jagan


'Rare' in the sense that it doesnt happen too often - but its been happening ever since we had retractable undercarts. A common factor is stress (used in the psychological term - a newly married guy is in a daze of happiness, but he is also performing under stress, as he is not himself, as happy as he may be). In this case, a feeling of elation after a good exercise with the SAAF? Who knows?

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Postby Kartik » 17 Oct 2004 21:10

more likely to be fatigue, as a result of continuous flying, and flying long legs with AAR.

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Postby vksac » 17 Oct 2004 23:44

I think the main focus for 17th October display is to take the focus away from the on going IAF-saingapore airforce dual.

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Postby Kartik » 19 Oct 2004 18:21

why should the IAF take the focus away from the IAF-SAF exercise ? i dont see any reason why the IAF would organise something to take the peoples eye off something they dont have an eye on in the first case.

Raju

Postby Raju » 19 Oct 2004 18:26

Very true kartik. I for instance am all 'eyes' & 'ears' and in India, yet I can't see or hear a damn thing about Sindex. :-o

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br should have some people with contees in iaf

Postby rajpa » 20 Oct 2004 14:08

no?

can this info about iaf/saf be super unleakable?

hmm...

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Postby A Sharma » 22 Oct 2004 23:17

[url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-896301,curpg-1.cms] Don't fret if Pak gets F-16s
[/url]

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Postby Vivek_A » 23 Oct 2004 00:33

Don't fret if Pak gets F-16s

NEW DELHI: India need not lose sleep even if Pakistan manages to acquire more F-16 fighters from the US. After plastering American combat pilots in an exercise earlier this year, IAF top guns now have another reason to be gung ho: their top-notch mean machines have proved more than a match for F-16s, the much-vaunted 'fighting falcons'.

Russian-origin Sukhoi-30MKI jets are apparently outgunning American F-16s on "several aspects" at the ongoing Indo-Singapore air combat exercise in Gwalior.

This is the first-ever face-off between these two sophisticated war machines originating from the two former Cold War adversaries.

"Our Sukhois are doing very well against the F-16Cs (of Singapore Air Force) in terms of manoeuvrability, sophistication of avionics and weapon systems. Similarly, our MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s are also matching up to the F-16s," say IAF sources.

IAF is pitting even its MiG-21s, which constitute over 45% of India's combat fleet, against F-16s during the 'Sindex-Ankush' exercise in Gwalior.

"Ever since the Pakistanis acquired F-16s from the US in the mid-1980s, we wanted to size them up. So, we are matching almost all our planes with F-16s of the Singapore Air Force, which are more advanced than the F-16s of Pakistan," said sources.

The IAF has also tasked its elite combat school to develop manoeuvres for MiG-21s to elude the radar cones of F-16s.

IAF spokesperson Squadron Leader Mahesh Upasani only said, "Results of the exercise will be assessed only after the debrief. It's premature to comment at this stage."

Instead of F-16s, the US had fielded the F-15C Eagles during the Cope India-04 exercise in February. So, the decks were promptly cleared when Singapore came knocking for training facilities with its F-16s.

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Postby JTull » 23 Oct 2004 00:54

Yeeeaahhooow :twisted:

Plastered them !!

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Postby SaiK » 23 Oct 2004 00:58

Arun_S wrote:krsna: You must be kidding. Find crack on a bolt that is mounted :x


i am not able to google out the correct link. i am pretty positive that barc did came out with new tech for non-destructive testing to identify cracks in metals, etc.

http://www.dae.gov.in/ar2001/igcar.htm
http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2 ... 20037.html
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002 ... 380300.htm
8)
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/seta/2002 ... 160300.htm

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Postby Arun_S » 23 Oct 2004 05:00

krsna: I would be interested in knowing.

I know that nuclear industry need it, perticulary to check the hi pressure pipes, but that is relatively clean problem, airframe has hundered of parts that are screwed/riveted/fitted, thus resolving boundries of these normal discontinueties from real defect will be very formidable, perticularly when the positional and sensing dimension are unknown/approximate, apart from sensor setup/interface issue with the airplane surface.

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Postby SaiK » 23 Oct 2004 06:08

arun_s: some info: but I am not sure.. but, you may be able to get more info, if you know people around in barc/nal/drdo etc.

--------

In view of NAL's growing involvement in the area of advanced composites, an independent Advanced Composites Unit was created this year. While LCA-related projects will largely engage the Unit's attention, there is also a significant work component related to non-destructive evaluation and the use of repair technologies. The Unit is now involved in the development of LCA centre fuselage components and has successfully completed the static testing, including functional tests, on the LCA fin and rudder.

http://www.cmmacs.ernet.in/nal/pages/dr.htm
http://www.cmmacs.ernet.in/nal/pages/ac.htm
----------

NAL has the only Non-Destructive Test facility in India using ultrasonic tests with frequency varying from 1 to 10 megahertz to test composites.
http://www.stratmag.com/issueFeb-15/page03.htm
----------------


i wonder if its only for composities.

George J

Postby George J » 23 Oct 2004 06:12

Why dont you kids take this offline....I keep reloading the SINDEX page to read links to 5 year old NAL sites thats got NOTHING to DO with SINDEX.

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Postby P Chitkara » 23 Oct 2004 09:55

Listening that RSAF F16 have been taken care of comprehensively is great! That being said I was curious about the training levels of RSAF pilots. They have of course been training with a lot of western AF's but, the extent to which an AF may train depends a lot on the percieved threat perception which in case of Singapore is not too high (I believe). This in turn shapes the docterine and consequently the kind of training being imparted. So, even though RSAF pilots taking part in the exercise will be good/very good, flying the much vaunted aircraft (at least in SA context!), they may still lose against our boys. We live in a hostile neighbourhood and therefore, our AF has to constantly innovate, evaluate, re-evaluate it's tactics and try to be ahead of all the adversaries. This is the single most important aspect that in ways, more than one would act as an inherent advantage for our AF wrt RSAF.
Neverthless, our pilots do deserve all the kudos! I believe it is a very good job done and goes on to prove that our AF is indeed one of the best!

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Postby JTull » 23 Oct 2004 11:35

P Chitkara, you've made valid points. I'd suggest copule of refinements.

The threat perception is visible in the kind of hardware acquisitions besides the training. Acquiring lots of F-16s is indeed indicative of that.

Singapore Air Force a lot of time in the logistics of arranging training. They've been going to many different places to get little training. Although that may make them good at long distance travel :), they may not be that good at combat patrolling.

They have been looking to get permanent basing facilities in India. It is difficult to say what arrangement may be worked out. But one thing is for sure, by getting facilities here, Singapore Air Force will train against better opponents, more frequently and in proximity to home.

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Postby P Chitkara » 23 Oct 2004 15:48

There is one more thing that is curious. We can conduct exercises with RSAF involving their F16's but similar exercises with Israel raise a lot of hackles of -you know which- countries :twisted: . I do not know the finer details but why are exercises with Israel taking eons whereas they should've been higher on Priority. Does the point I mentioned earlier coupled with the IsAF's F16 being much more advanced have any bearing on this.
After all RSAF also would've sought uncle's go-ahead for this engagement.

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Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2004 16:21

we dont need ACM exercises with F16I. we need DPSA exercises with F15-I :twisted:

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Postby JohnK » 23 Oct 2004 16:54

The RSAF trains under the 425th FTS, 56 FW at Luke AFB and 428th FTS, 27 FW Cannon AFB. So these pilots are US trained. The F-16 operated is the Blk 52 version which the F-16I is based on too. However the F-16I has more Israeli Avionics and newer V(9) radar. Both should be operating the DASH helmet sight and Python 4 missile.

The RSAF F-16 is much much advance than the Pakistan ones and IAF is interested to know if their fighters can match it. The Su-30s is more advance than the ones that Malaysia and Indonesia is operating and RSAF wants to know if their F-16s could contain it. So its a win win situation for both air forces.

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Postby Rakesh » 23 Oct 2004 18:39

pirate, your username has been changed to JohnK

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Postby Sai.U » 24 Oct 2004 08:14

SB004 and SB022 with RSAF F16.

http://forum.airforces.info/attachment. ... 1595&stc=1

Posted on AFM by HuntingHawk

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Postby ameya » 24 Oct 2004 09:07

Sai.U wrote:SB004 and SB022 with RSAF F16.

http://forum.airforces.info/attachment. ... 1595&stc=1

Posted on AFM by HuntingHawk


I assume these are real pics and not paintainings.
SB022 was from the first batch of MKI's .
But from these pics it looks as if SB004( inducted in 1997) also has canards on it. Which means that the upgraded 30Ks have arrived.

If thats the case , any idea which all planes have been upgraded, their colour scheme?

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Postby Anurag » 24 Oct 2004 09:12

ameya wrote:
Sai.U wrote:SB004 and SB022 with RSAF F16.

http://forum.airforces.info/attachment. ... 1595&stc=1

Posted on AFM by HuntingHawk


I assume these are real pics and not paintainings.
SB022 was from the first batch of MKI's .
But from these pics it looks as if SB004( inducted in 1997) also has canards on it. Which means that the upgraded 30Ks have arrived.

If thats the case , any idea which all planes have been upgraded, their colour scheme?


Well, there arn't any "upgraded" Sukhois that are going to arrive in place! Also, I don't see any canards on the SB004! Anyways, what bothers me is the SB022. What the hell is a MKI doing flying along side the RSAF F-16's. I'm really hoping the radar was turned off and this is only for the camera!

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Postby ameya » 24 Oct 2004 12:35

Todays ToI has an identical pic.
and again it has canard or if not then something very similar to it .

Please tell me what is it then..

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Postby JTull » 24 Oct 2004 14:30

Doesn't look like SB022. I read it as SB012.

Why then are you speculating on MKI?

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Postby vipin » 24 Oct 2004 15:49

Looks like sb022 to me. Atleast the last two numerals are the same.

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Postby Singha » 24 Oct 2004 16:44

its is definitely SB022. the non-deployed canard makes the LERX
area look a little different if one blows up the pic. in the MK its a straight angle towards the nose, for the MKI the initial part looks parallel to the fuselage then angles into nose.

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Postby Aditya_M » 24 Oct 2004 18:08

if anything the colour scheme which can be made out in the BW pic should settle the issue - one MKI, one K.

though I am equally surprised we used an MKI for the ex.

say, whats that object that is causing a large-ish shadow on the area below the cockpit?

also, the wingtip missile on the Falcon - is it a dummy used for training purposes to keep down wing flutter? the ones just inwards from the wingtip look like real winders with the *propah* fins.

nice pic though - but its not in MY edition of the Times :cry: :(( can i have a colour pic too?

Rustom

Postby Rustom » 24 Oct 2004 18:33

There is a GORGEOUS color shot in todays (sundays) Asian Age. Its the same shot that Sai. U. posted, but in color.

I never knew that the MKI's also had the 2 tone blue paint scheme. I thought that only the MK1's had that scheme.


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