Exercise SINDEX: IAF and RSAF

Jagan
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Postby Jagan » 24 Oct 2004 18:57

A better pic from the Times of INdia;s epaper is here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/ ... hoif16.jpg

After rustoms tip, i went to www.asianage.com and saw the pic thumbnail in color

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Postby Shalav » 24 Oct 2004 19:01

ameya wrote:Please tell me what is it then..


The black portion below the cockpit is the blast panel for the cannon. The "chevron" behind and slightly above the black panel is a pitot and its shadow.

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Postby Arun_S » 24 Oct 2004 19:04

Is not MKI.

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Postby Anurag » 24 Oct 2004 19:12

Arun_S wrote:Is not MKI.


Why do you say so. It clearly says SB022!

George J

Postby George J » 24 Oct 2004 19:16

By sr. no. IT HAS TO BE a an MKI (MK-1) SB 019-028.

And children we have a PIC of SB022 in the BR MKI gallery (again with invisible canards) and there is a SB024 where the canards would not be visible to the un-jingo eyes.

First of all its a B/W pics and its of a low-viz gray a/c against a pretty non-contrasting b/g.

You shouldnt be questioning if its MKI or not but what they got to see on the MKI.

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Postby JohnK » 24 Oct 2004 19:25

Suppose to be tomorrow's news but I post it here early for all to read.

CHIEF OF AIR FORCE'S INTRODUCTORY VISIT TO INDIA
Singapore's Chief of Air Force Major-General (MG) Lim Kim Choon will be visiting New Delhi, Gwalior, Jodhpur and Agra during his introductory visit to India from 24 to 29 Oct 04. MG Lim will also visit the ongoing exercise between the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) and the Indian Air Force (IAF) at Gwalior Air Force Station.

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Postby Rishi » 24 Oct 2004 19:34

Jagan wrote:A better pic from the Times of INdia;s epaper is here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/ ... hoif16.jpg

After rustoms tip, i went to www.asianage.com and saw the pic thumbnail in color


Image

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Postby Aditya_M » 25 Oct 2004 10:59

"For those who came in late"....

Blue = Su-30 K / MK / Mk1

Grey = Su-30MKI (em kay eye).

:)

Shalav - thanks, i'd thought it was a pitot but the shadow seemed too large...

Rustom

Postby Rustom » 25 Oct 2004 11:19

But in the pic with the blue & grey Su-30's, it looks like even the blue one has cannards.

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Postby ameya » 25 Oct 2004 12:42

Rustom wrote:But in the pic with the blue & grey Su-30's, it looks like even the blue one has cannards.


This is precisely what I said in my first post.

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Postby JohnK » 25 Oct 2004 16:20

MINDEF STATEMENT ON ONGOING EXERCISE SINDEX
The Singapore Ministry of Defense issued a statement to clarify an Indian newspaper report on the ongoing Exercise SINDEX.

the MINDEF Spokesman said:

"We can understand why the Indian media would come out with a sensational story like this.

Raju

Postby Raju » 25 Oct 2004 16:28

I think that the dork media just went too far in their urge for a scoop. It was a very sensationalist headline which probably had no basis in facts privy to our DDM.

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Postby JCage » 25 Oct 2004 17:46

Dudes, apply logic. Can a MKI outgun a F16 Block 52? Yes! Its in a diff class altogether.
Now would tom tomming this please the RSAF, esp when Malaysia is about to acquire MKM's? No.

No need to brag for the IAF, just learn and move on and keep the exercises coming ....;)

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Postby bagha » 25 Oct 2004 18:21

The "DDM" report is entirely believable.
A possible reason for favourable performance of IAF vs the Singaporeans could be the fact that the IAF probably has more knowledge of the F-16 and its characteristics than the Singaporeans have of the Sukhoi.
But I'm all for the singaporeans coming here until they start beating us as frequently as they lose.
That would be a win win situation

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Postby JTull » 25 Oct 2004 18:30

That'll not be a win situation for us, given that Sinaporeans are sure to pass on their new found wisdom to their US trainers.

Such tactics will eventually filter down to Paki and Arab air forces. A new tactic for beating a specific machine cannot be kept secret for too long.

Raju

Postby Raju » 25 Oct 2004 18:47

It can be a win-win situation only when the respective airforces keep this new-fanged knowledge to themselves. But apparently no institution is exactly liberated of 'loudmouths'.

MKI should never exercise with any foreign a/f's on a regular basis. Those should be done by planes lower down the order. Lessons leart instead could be applied to the MKI as well.

When the pakfa or some newfanged gizmo makes its appearance we could think about exposing the MKI more often. Again the keyword here is 'Think about it'.

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Postby Kartik » 26 Oct 2004 00:54

its not as if only the Indian media glorifies their own AF. they were quick to whack the IAF when we did badly against the French in BVR, and in most cases did'nt mention that the IAF were better at WVR combat.

AW&ST in its October 18,2004 issue says that the IAF actually had better odds of 12-4, totally overlooking the fact that this consisted of strike aircraft too, and embedded escorts. And they mention that the IAF handicapped them by limiting the long-range missile shots to 20 miles, as if it was only applicable to them.

But they do give some credit to the IAF by also mentioning innovative tactics by the IAF allowed them to beat the US flight of 4 aircraft, all non AESA equipped.

And also giving credit to the fact that the IAF brought a mix of pilots (skill wise) to Cope India, they mention that the William Tell weapons competition will now abandon the old, elitist concept of handpicked, well-supplied teams, and bring a mix of expertise to the event.

Col. Russell J. Handy also goes on to say that regarding why AESA, threat of cruise missiles, new sensors, and advanced command and control schemes have given rise to a need for more capability.

"Why do we need all this capability ?" Handy asks "Cope India brought some attention to the issue. What that demonstrated clearly, to anyone who had a doubt, was that a nation with the appropriate level of motivation and resources, can build themselves a pretty darned good air force. It was not just the equipment, but the training plan, pilots, attitude and philosophy. :D That is no doubt transferrable to many nations out there. "

"If we ignore the lessons... we are doomed to find ourselves [at a disadvantage] against some behemoth that we underestimated. It can be done, and there are lots of smart people out there. If we're to continue to hold the edge, we have to look at these advanced technologies."

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Postby Ved » 26 Oct 2004 06:30

Raju wrote:MKI should never exercise with any foreign a/f's on a regular basis. Those should be done by planes lower down the order. Lessons leart instead could be applied to the MKI as well. .


Too true. I guess thats why there are plans to send only 'K's to France next year.

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Postby Arun_S » 26 Oct 2004 07:51

Anurag wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Is not MKI.


Why do you say so. It clearly says SB022!


Because it does not have canards .

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Postby Anurag » 26 Oct 2004 08:32

Arun_S wrote:
Anurag wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Is not MKI.


Why do you say so. It clearly says SB022!


Because it does not have canards .


Sure it does, look closely!

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Postby bagha » 26 Oct 2004 10:45

If neither side brings its best equipment or its best tactics to an exercise, then why should we consider them to be important?
no rhetoric here, just a curious question.
And what if the tactics we develop and incorporate based on these "one hand tied" exercises are precisely the kind of stuff that the enemy is well equipped to counter using precisely those hidden tactics and equipment. Doesnt that make these exercises counterproductive?
I mean Mike Tyson wouldnt be helping his career much by sparring with Mr. Bean wearing a Lennox Lewis' mask. Oversimplification maybe but i hope im conveying my question.

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Postby Babui » 26 Oct 2004 17:02

Can anybody with access post the AWST Oct 18th issue here - the article referencing Col Handy ?

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Postby Harry » 26 Oct 2004 17:46

Arun_S wrote:
Anurag wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Is not MKI.


Why do you say so. It clearly says SB022!


Because it does not have canards .


It does. Another way to differentiate is to note the bulky early generation RWR aerials on the MK's tail.

its not as if only the Indian media glorifies their own AF. they were quick to whack the IAF when we did badly against the French in BVR, and in most cases did'nt mention that the IAF were better at WVR combat.


Or the fact that despite inferior equipment, the BVR score evened out or even favored the IAF, in the end, after certain changes in tactics.
Last edited by Harry on 26 Oct 2004 17:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Aditya Vikram » 26 Oct 2004 17:49

Dumb Indian Media as usual. I think it is more or less obvious that an Su-30MKI can defeat a F-16 . but there are not too many of them. Even if the Pakis have aircraft to shoot down the Mig 21Bis then it is a threat. We need to make sure that almost all IAF aircraft can shoot down F-16 A/B

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Postby JaiS » 26 Oct 2004 19:30

JohnK,

What was the kind of role played by RSAF F-16s during the exercise at Dijon ?

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Postby Kartik » 26 Oct 2004 22:59

Babui wrote:Can anybody with access post the AWST Oct 18th issue here - the article referencing Col Handy ?


I could type it out from my University's library but its a long article, and its main issue is that the 3rd Wings 19th Squadron will be the one representing the Pacific AF Command in the William Tell competition. and they are also the squadron that are responsible for developing tactics for the AIM-9X with the JHMCS. In the course of that, they mention that this squadron achieved notoriety when 19 pilots flying 6 F-15s were beaten badly by Indian pilots. :D .

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Postby Singha » 26 Oct 2004 23:36

good heavens I never realizes they brought across 19 pilots.
sounds like every pilot in the sqdn was brought in from the gurus to newbies.

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Postby JohnK » 27 Oct 2004 05:26

SINGAPORE AND INDIA HOLD INAUGURAL BILATERAL AIR EXERCISE
A statement from the Singapore Ministry of Defense and photographs of the exercise.

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Postby JohnK » 27 Oct 2004 05:34

Babui wrote:Can anybody with access post the AWST Oct 18th issue here - the article referencing Col Handy ?


http://s8.invisionfree.com/Military_Nuts/index.php?showtopic=165

you can get it here, quite a few other AWST articles if you look around.

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Postby Kartik » 27 Oct 2004 10:48

one of the pics has a Sqdn. Ldr. from the No. 20 Lightnings squadron talking to the F-16 pilot. could we thus assume that this is the damning proof that the Su-30MKIs participated in the exercise ? or were they simply observers like the MiG-29 in Cope India ?

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Postby Kartik » 27 Oct 2004 10:49

and Singhaji, my bad, it was 13 pilots not 19 as I mentioned. still its equivalent to almost 3/4th of the squadron pool.

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Postby JohnK » 27 Oct 2004 13:57

An airbase in Jaipur, in northern India, has been earmarked for the Republic of Singapore Air Force to carry out its flight training and exercises.

Senior Indian air force official, Air Commodore Rajaguru, says the airbase is a good beginning for more interaction between the two air forces.


Although this is not a permanent facility for the RSAF, the senior official says it can train there on a regularly basis.

Singapore and India are now conducting their first joint air exercise, code named SINDEX 04, at Gwalior, India.

India says the exercise marks the start of a strong and long relationship between both nations.

For the RSAF, it has been an opportunity to operate with the very well established Indian Air Force.

Previously, defence cooperation between the two countries involved mostly their navies. - CNA

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Postby Ujjal » 27 Oct 2004 14:43

so what is the score of this game? I'm sure it can never be MKI. Even if its MKI, we are not going to have them a look inside cockpit or to play around with our wonderful bird.

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Postby JTull » 27 Oct 2004 15:02


Jagan
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Postby Jagan » 27 Oct 2004 16:19

Transcript of the press conference
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/display.asp?number=2237

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Postby Shishir » 27 Oct 2004 22:50

Couple of pictures from the exercise.
Image 1
Image 2

Also a nice video of the exercise (Runtime = 1min)
Lo BW Video
Hi BW Video

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Postby sudipn » 27 Oct 2004 23:11

shishir wrote:Couple of pictures from the exercise.
Hi BW Video


guys now i might be mistaken but could any of you guys actually detect the MKI in this clip? from what i could make out they were the su 30 k's their canards missing....can we deduce something here?

sudip

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Postby JTull » 28 Oct 2004 01:22

From the High BW video, both the low visibility grey shade and the blue shade Su-30s clearly didn't have the canards. There were the Su-30Ks, no question about that.

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Postby Jagan » 28 Oct 2004 01:41

JTull wrote:From the High BW video, both the low visibility grey shade and the blue shade Su-30s clearly didn't have the canards. There were the Su-30Ks, no question about that.


If the canard is straight and level with the wing, it is extremely difficult to spot it. The video appears to be clear but I would not be surprised if the camera did not catch the canards in the brief clip.

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Postby Anurag » 28 Oct 2004 01:57

Jagan wrote:
JTull wrote:From the High BW video, both the low visibility grey shade and the blue shade Su-30s clearly didn't have the canards. There were the Su-30Ks, no question about that.


If the canard is straight and level with the wing, it is extremely difficult to spot it. The video appears to be clear but I would not be surprised if the camera did not catch the canards in the brief clip.


Very true! You just can't spot the canard since it's on the same plane as the center wings, unlike the Gripen or Rafael where they are higher.

But again, the K's might just be in the grey scheme. If anyone can spot the SB number, that would make this come to a conclusion!


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