Possible Indian Military Scenarios - Part III

daulat
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Postby daulat » 26 Aug 2005 13:58

The road north of Sahiwal was choked. The refugees had long ago taken to the scrub around the road, now it was just choked with the burning, stinking remains of a long column of burnt out trucks, APC's and bodies. Lots of bodies. Those that could walk had done so, trudging northwards, hoping to regroup where there was still any semblance of order, others just wandering like the displaced and scared. All they knew was that they had to get out of here.

The Indians had stopped bombing and strafing a while back, now they just flew over every now and again. Most had stopped counting. From what had been the front to about 30kms back, there was no return fire as Jaguars and UAV's flew by at low level.

Most of the armour had perished in the cauldron, atleast the soft skinned vehicles had been mustered and atleast one brigadier had been coherent enough to organise a withdrawal, but it had met its grisly end on the highway, even under the cover of night. Night, that which had long shielded a soldier from the birds of prey - now no more. The brigadier had been one of the many to perish as the night-falcons had torn his column to pieces. No PAF aircraft had come to his rescue.

His colleagues were now also heading for houri-land, or sat shell shocked in their blasted positions, waiting for the IA follow up columns to take their surrender. Many of the enlisted men just filtered away, hoping to make it back to their villages. Some regrouped around a hard core JCO or NCO, perhaps reading from the Koran, or exhorting further sacrifice. However, the front had broken, the cauldron had boiled over.

The lead IA units had by now forged ahead, light tanks had skirted up the scrub off the road, whilst a large detachment of Arjuns prepared to clear the highway and strike northwards. There had been no time to reflect on the cauldron, only the nervous energy kept men awake, plunging forward into the next fiery encounter. Many noticed the lines of refugees, or those huddled bewildered by the roadside, some heard the wailing of women.

At a roadblock 50 km north of Sahiwal, a Colonel stopped a line of trucks. His men ordered their emptying at gunpoint - the trucks would be needed for more urgent tasks. Grimly, they unloaded line after line of dead bodies being moved back from the front. Dumped unceremoniously by the roadside, some perhaps still wounded, all to the bitter murmuring and wailing of their comerades, still burnt and scarred from the cauldron. The colonel knew this was the end of the road. This was the last crisis, Allah would forgive him for this sin, he had to marshall his resources and do what was required if they were ever going to stop the Indians now... someone had to be strong. It fell upon him now, he had to do what was needed.

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Postby Sharma » 26 Aug 2005 15:28

Sorrow face of war coming too early. Lahore is till out and so is final victory.....

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Postby daulat » 26 Aug 2005 15:37

sharma ji - many more will die before it is over. lahore awaits but so does the grim reaper. besides, in a densely populated country, how rapid can a rapid advance be?

<<i also want to remind everyone that this is not funny and its not like the movies. need to remember that war is hell>>

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Postby JCage » 26 Aug 2005 16:01

But give us an epic battle, not equal- equal. Not after YIP's Sahiwal road of utter destruction. :):P

YIP, what about the Kharga??

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Postby Singha » 26 Aug 2005 16:04

> Some regrouped around a hard core JCO or NCO, perhaps reading from
> the Koran, or exhorting further sacrifice.

True Believers must always be patient and ready for sacrifice. the arab armies won many famous victories by continuing to fight into the dusk and the night as their enemies grew tired and careless.

one thing about the PA - if they are led properly they will fight very hard,
paki peasant stock is used to harsh conditions and can take a lot of work. so
as you write, hardcore JCO/NCO types with Koran in hand should be able to hold together small unit actions even if their softer officers desert the battle.

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Postby JCage » 26 Aug 2005 16:31

Singha wrote:> Some regrouped around a hard core JCO or NCO, perhaps reading from
> the Koran, or exhorting further sacrifice.

True Believers must always be patient and ready for sacrifice. the arab armies won many famous victories by continuing to fight into the dusk and the night as their enemies grew tired and careless.

one thing about the PA - if they are led properly they will fight very hard,
paki peasant stock is used to harsh conditions and can take a lot of work. so
as you write, hardcore JCO/NCO types with Koran in hand should be able to hold together small unit actions even if their softer officers desert the battle.


And they lost many battles too. Belief didnt help them much against Hulagu Khan did it?

I am opposed to any glorification of PA on the grounds they are "believers" and hence fight harder, even when we mean it for artistic license. Its a fact, that other "believers" such as Rajputs, Sikhs, Gurkhas all punch far above their weight. What makes Pak so special?

The average Paki sowar is nothing special or weak either. He is just a human being. Lead him well and he'll respond. Otherwise, he'll only be worth so much. Second, PA has depended upon its officers for leadership as well- after Kargil the IA undertook reforms, was setting up a school to disseminate initiative downwards and get capable leaders at all levels. What has Pak done?

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Postby daulat » 26 Aug 2005 16:43

J Cage - i didn't do equal-equal, i was describing the shattering of the PA and its disorganised retreat, held together in places by individuals

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Postby Singha » 26 Aug 2005 16:51

just practising some track_pee diplomacy, soothing those that need to be soothed...gather brownie points for bad behaviour later...nothing to get upset about....

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Postby JCage » 26 Aug 2005 16:57

daulat wrote:J Cage - i didn't do equal-equal, i was describing the shattering of the PA and its disorganised retreat, held together in places by individuals


I know, but all you guys have vetted our appetites and made us much more demanding! :lol: Just wanted to fire a request before we got bogged down. Blame YIP and his Karna epic.

just practising some track_pee diplomacy, soothing those that need to be soothed...gather brownie points for bad behaviour later...nothing to get upset about....


I should have guessed! :eek: :D

All I wanted to point out is that the tenet of martial superiority is one Pakis have long held on to, reality be damned. I think this thread and all your guys scenarios bring home the reality- that war is a complex process, and old wives tales about 1 Believer= 10 Kaffirs is nowhere near the reality, when faced with equally ruthless foes combining savvy leadership and technology. And frankly, you *should* continue on this path.

After all, the Ganpats of the MLI and Sikhs and Rajputs are as brutal in war as anyone else, and perhaps more so, if one considers their war record.

I think Cope India and subsequent USAF disclosures praising the IAF forced the Pakis to face some uncomfortable truths about the IAF. Similarly, this thread should *continue* to rub it in.

JMHO.

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Postby Kakkaji » 26 Aug 2005 19:39

I agree with Nitin. This whole idea of 'Martial Superiority' is what has turned the Pakis into such jacka$$es. This theory needs to be debunked.

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Postby Dileep » 26 Aug 2005 19:52

PRIME MINISTER'S RESIDENCE: 5:30 PM.

The white Skoda car glided into the gate. After the security checks, it proceeded to the front porch of the building. The visit was conspicuous by the absense of any media. Normally the visit by the person in the car would mean very serious political implications, and a lot of media coverage was usual fare. This time it was different.

The door of the car opened and a man in his sixties emerged. Clad in inexpensive white material fashioned typical to his native community, he radiated an aura of calm and comfort. Decades of a life dedicated to solving the problems of not only his own community, but also of the politics of his state and the nation itself has made him into a very respected voice that everyone listened to. The perennial smile beamed from his face, with the trademark beard, which was rather a stubble, hardly a centimeter long. The tail of his white turban flowed in the breeze. The mark on his forehead, result of touching the floor many times, during the five sessions of worship bore witness of his pious life.

Though he does not hold any official position in the political party he represent, everyone knew his word is final, just the same as it is for a village dispute. It is extremely rare he visits the power centres of Delhi, and normally it would be to solve crises involving the future of cabinets. This time it is different. It involves the long term makeover of the subcontinent. He is carrying an important message from a faction of the enemy. It was simple. They want to talk!

It was no secret that religious, political, and intelligence entities of Pakistan had been trying to influence the Muslim community of India, right from the partition. Mostly it was considered hostile, and harmful to the national security. ISI tried hard to create splits and dissents, build humint, and incite violence. The extremists tried hard sell of their firebrand Islam, resulting in a lot of violence. These kind of influence got lot of attention, and the people who had even a hint of associating with such activities were viewed with suspicion. The mainstream political organizations tried hard to keep themselves away, beause of obvious reasons.

However, the religious sections of Pakistan realized that if you want to talk sense in the face of a mortally aggressive India, none of their local sympathizers will do. They simply will not be trusted. Hell, most propably they will be arrested and dumped in prison with treason charges. The only credible way to take the message across was through the most respected leader, and they established contact through a common ancestral establishment in Makkah. After careful consideration, and discussions within the family, it was decided to visit the Prime Minister personally and deliver the message. With an excuse of visiting another leader who was admitted to AIIMS for treatment, he took the next available flight to New Delhi.

No one else, other than a few trusted confidantes knew the secret. The meeting with the PM was in confidence, with only the two men, alone in the office room. No one in the media even suspected anything. There was some speculation on the reason for the visit, but none of them came even remotely close to reality. He left the capital the next day, with his mission accomplished. If the PM wanted to pick up the lead, he knows whom to call.

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Postby Y I Patel » 27 Aug 2005 01:01

The people of Sahiwal did not need reporters to tell them that a seismic calamity had occurred at their doorsteps. The Indian Army and Air Force, conscious of their traditions of honor and the timeless Indian code of chivalry (Hum Nihaththee Pe Vaar Nahin Karte – we do not attack the unarmed), scrupulously avoided targeting Sahiwal with even a single bomb, shell, or bullet. But the Indians could not and would not spare those in Sahiwal from the sights and sounds of war. The unfortunate souls of Sahiwal soon found out what war is really like.

The first few days of the war were actually a very exciting time for Sahiwal. The news was full of patriotic bombast (before the media fell strangely silent); the mullahs were outdoing each other in exhorting the faithful to dizzying heights of patriotism. Then, one fine day, huge Pakistani army columns started pouring through and around Sahiwal. Now Sahiwal is in an area fairly densely populated by military installations, and military movement through its streets is not an unfamiliar sight. But the Pakistani military specializes in table top exercises, so Pakistanis rarely get to see huge columns that people of Bikaner or Bhatinda or Jodhpur are so wearily familiar with. The people were giddy with patriotic fervour, and cries of Pakistan Paindabad rent the air as the police indulgently let people break curfew and line the streets and bypasses of Sahiwal, waving their proud defenders to deeds of glory.

The first sounds of the battle were barely heard above the din and clatter of the traffic. It was like some distant, indistinct rumbling. Puzzled ears strained at the unfamiliar and unexpected sound, questioning looks were exchanged… then, out of nowhere, four haze grey shapes flashed by. Few were looking upwards, and fewer still saw them streak by. But the eerie silence of their flight was soon broken as a series of thunderclap-like sonic booms rattled and broke windows all across Sahiwal. That sound repeated itself again and again over the next few days; it would not leave the memories of those who survived for the rest of their lives. The distant rumble soon swelled in magnitude, and concussive thuds of 1000 pounder bombs and 155 mm shells shook the earth and caused matkas to tumble over. Children and women screamed in shrill terror; grown men cowered, soiled their clothes, or went into fetal, thumb-sucking huddles.

A few years before Tandav, two brilliant but till then relatively obscure Indian historians had come out with the first definitive history of the India-Pakistan air war of 1965. It was revealing how much more potent the IAF had become since those days – a Jaguar or a MiG 27 could carry more ordnance than a flight of Mysteres or Hunters; a Sukhoi or Hornet could carry more than an entire squadron of 65-era bombers! And the ordnances they did carry were far deadlier – there were heat seeking or laser guided precision bombs, cluster bombs that tore through entire formations, even napalm bombs released by an implacable IAF HQ for use on military formations in open areas. The Sahiwalis, spared from direct hurt from Indian arms, got a grisly ring side view of the horrors visiting their armed brethren.

A fully armed Jaguar can take off from Suratgarh, pound a Pakistani column repeatedly and mercilessly, and be back in Surtagarh in less time than what it took for a shell shocked soldier to limp back to Sahiwal. Two corps was, therefore, effectively dead before the terrifying trickle of dead and wounded started percolating into Sahiwal. The walking wounded were frightening enough with their broken stubs of limbs and their horribly burnt bodies. But the dead were terrifying – some with faces contorted and bodies frozen in unnatural and frightful poses, some mangled horrifyingly into unrecognizable pulp, all stinking of human waste and putrefaction in the remorseless Punjab sun. The under equipped civilian hospital was soon overwhelmed, and corpses and moaning humanity spilled over into the streets of a hapless and stunned town.

Every broken body, every mangled corpse carried the same unspoken message – Bhaago, Hindu Shaitaan Aaa Rahen Hain! (Flee, the Hindu Satans are coming!) Most did what comes as first instinct when ordinary people perceive mortal danger – they packed their most precious belongings, grabbed their loved ones, and fled. The fled on foot; with overloaded bicycles and scooters, in rickshaws, and in cars. They joined army deserters and commandeered buses and trucks, and fled. They did not need a Sandhurst education to tell them who was winning and where the enemy was. They picked up what they could, and fled to the north and west.

The first reaction of the majority provoked a second one in a fanatical minority that actually believed the generals and the mullahs. Students from the local madrassahs organized themselves into unlikely first responders. Some of them rushed out to aid the wounded and dying, and some went to blow themselves up futilely against the tanks and Ganpats. But some turned against their own people. Armed gangs of fiery eyed fanatics stopped the fleeing refugees to hunt for able bodied men. This definition included any male between 70 and 7, and many soon found themselves being dragged away from their wailing and helpless womenfolk. When some resisted, fights broke out – between deserters and jehadis, between ordinary folks and army or police, between police and jehadis, between refugees and jehadis, between army and jehadis, between deserters and non-deserters. Brother turned on brother. Chaos reigned.

Where there is death, there are vultures. Singly, sometimes in bands, a third group began to show its presence. Bands of human jackals looted hospitals, shops, banks, homes. They even preyed on the fleeing refugees, robbing them of their belongings… and more. They settled their petty clan vendettas. Soon, Sahiwal was burning. Not from Indian bombs, but from Pakistani torches.

Tandav had reached the Pakistani heartland. A growing ripple of broken, terrified, displaced humanity arose from Sahiwal. And Kharga had still not started its march.

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Postby JCage » 27 Aug 2005 01:58

>>And Kharga had still not started its march.

Start, start! Climactic battle between T90Ss/Arjuns vs Alk/T84s expected!:D

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Postby Pennathur » 27 Aug 2005 16:21

What is the epicenter of the peoplle of Islam? Without any intention of blasphemy towards my Muslim friends - IMHO - it is Indiain numbers and thought. Every important intellectual tradition within the faith is represented here. India's reach within the world of Islam - of which India itelf is the heart - is unmatched. This is realised and accepted by the progressive Islamic states of Iran, Indonesia and Malaysia. With all the resources at the command of the ISI it must still rely upon its own TSP scum (and more recently BD and Nepali Maoist dregs) to do its dirty work in India with our own DDM and Mush-xxxx-kissers providing top-cover. How would TSP use back channels within the Muslim community of India? The Shia Imams will most lilkely have nothing to do with such demands. "Completethe surrender and we will see what happens." Among the Sunni the Deobandi may entertain a request or two but only at their own terms. We are more likely to see secret parleys being inititated thru business contacts. Shaukat Aziz could talk to Victor Menezes (Citibank colleagues) and thereon to PMO. Maybe some Silicon Valley connections could help, academics too. Even interaction thru the Indian and Paki MPs of UK Parliament may work. Many channels will be tried out for sure and TSP will try to keep the dialogue a subcontinetal process not letting it spiral into an international issue.

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Postby Dileep » 27 Aug 2005 21:20

Pennathur,

The following explanation can't get into the novel as it is. It takes some work to put it in the fiction, but here goes.

The powerhouse in TSP at this point of time has undergone a three way split, instead of uniting in the face of adversity. The ruling elite, the religious organizations, and the patriotic faction of the army. They have totally different idea on how to proceed, and doesn't see eye to eye on that. Then there are two external forces as well.

The ruling elite has no real love for the charred moth eaten TSP. They had been sending away their wards to greener pasteurs for the past couple of years. Their idea is to cut and run. They want to make a deal and stay in power as ong as their superiority in the new nations is ensured. In fact they have already put their feelers to PM Arora by now.

There are two parts of the RAPE who are outside the country, who were in power previously. They ofourse want to fish in turbid waters. they want to return as major political force in Sindh and Punjab, where their respective powerbases remain. They also have contacted PM Arora.

The religious groups, who have left no love for the RAPE have now made an alliance. They know that they can't win the war, so they want to remove the RAPE, who they think are not really Islamic and are corrupting the land of pure. They want to do what the profet(PBUH) did. They want to make a covenant of peace with the Kafir.

Now, how would they do that? The only rapport they have in India is with the extreme religious groups. Those indian groups can't even think about talking. In fact many leaders of them are already in Jail for suspected pro-paki actions during war time. So, they used their syed family contacts to open a channel to a syed family head in India, who has impeccable character, and is active in polotics.

So, PM Arora and his team has now three choices. One, make a deal with RAPE and create Sindhudesh under one family and Punjab with the other. Two, Make a deal with the religious groups. Three, procecute a prolonged war, like the USA did and continuing to do even today(2008) in Iraq.

What will he decide? That we will see in due course.

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Kareen Khan addresses the nation

Postby Vasudevan » 28 Aug 2005 12:29

Transcript of speech by Gen. Kareen Khan, President of Pakistan
Pakistan Television, Channels 1 & 2
Translated from Urdu
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My dear Pakistani Brothers and sisters, Pakistan is currently passing through a critical juncture. We are faced with a grave situation and we are standing at the crossroads of history. Today, tension is at its height, war has descended apon our land and I would like to tell you and the world how this situation was forced upon us.

First of all, I want to pay my respects to all those sons of Pakistan who have achieved martyrdom defending the motherland against the treacherous enemy. May Allah grant them a place in heaven.

As you all know, last week, an indian navy ship in the bay of bengal sank due to inclement weather. We had, at that time, immediately expressed the condolences of the people of Pakistan to this unfortunate event. However, The indian leadership acted in a hasty manner and adopted extremely irresposible behaviour. Our submarine, Khalid, that was returning from a peaceful deployment to the chinese port in Burma, was attacked and sunk by Indian warplanes and ships. Our submarine was attacked despite it coming to the surface in a show of non-aggression to signal to the indian forces its peaceful intent. This was a demonstration of their traditional enmity towards Pakistan.

Despite our right to avenge this wrongful attack on our people, we restrained ourselves and acted in a resposible manner. Our restraint was repayed by the treacherous Indian government two days later when our ships returning from exercises with the US navy were attacked and destroyed in a most brutal manner. Our Naval personnel displayed bravery of the highest order, shooting down three attacking aircraft and two helicopters apart from crippling one Indian surface vessel.

Despite this extreme provocation, the armed forces and the Government of pakistan showed extreme restraint by not retaliating to this. We tried our level best to bring this ghastly act to the notice of the international community.

The treachery of our neighbours knows no boundaries. The day before yesterday, an indian civilian passenger jet deviated off course near the territorial skies of Pakistan and radioed a possible hijack situation. Accordingly, we sent our fighter aircraft to formate on this aircraft so that any attempted hijack could be averted. Seeing that the plane was obeying the commands of our pilots, our aircraft then proceeded to escort this plane to Indian airspace. However, the treacherous enemy showed unimaginable cowardice by attacking our escort aircraft.

Warplanes from their russian aircraft carrier attacked our escorting aircraft unmindful of the lives of their own innocent civilians in the passenger jet. Displaying a shocking disregard for human life and common decency, the enemy employed missiles and guns against our aircraft, our pilots did not want to fire back fearing for the safety of the passengers. Rather than return fire and endanger the lives of civilians, our gallant pilots sacrificed their own lives, preffering to achieve martyrdom rather than killing an unarmed innocent, even by mistake.

Yesterday, Indian aircraft aided and assisted by Israeli fighter planes attacked our air force base at Sargodha. Employing secret weapons developed by the zionists, they attempted to destroy our air resources and the entire city of sargodha. Bombs from Indian and Zionist aircraft destroyed the hospital where our civilians and soldiers are treated as well as the base school, where hundreds of innocent schoolchildren were in class. Do the Zionists and the Indians have no decency? Are they not human, what could the innocent children at the school have done to deserve this? This was an attack where I escaped with my life by the hair of my teeth. But I wish I had been killed instead of the poor children.

Our patience has come to an end. It is time the infidel was taught a lesson. Even as I speak, our brave soldiers have destroyed an entire Indian division, destroyed hundreds of tanks and taken many of the enemy prisoner. Our Pilots have launched massive air attacks and have shot down 130 Indian planes already without any losses of our own.

We appeal to the ummah to help us in this time of our need. It is time that the infidel indians and israelis are taught a lesson that shall never be forgotten. I appeal to muslim nations and people around the world to unite with us and show the infidel the fires of hell.

The people of Pakistan, destiny is now in our hands, it is up to us to choose how to make it. I appeal to you to stay calm, not give any currency to vicious rumours spread by the treacherous enemy. I know that every man, woman and child of Pakistan is ready to lay their lives down for the country. Victory is at hand. Our soldiers have made great successes and Inshallah will be victorious. We cannot fail. Allah is with us.
Last edited by Vasudevan on 30 Aug 2005 11:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JCage » 28 Aug 2005 13:57

Vasudevan,

That is perfect Pakistani propoganda- very well done!

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Postby Vasudevan » 29 Aug 2005 05:24

Thanks JCage
After being a BR junkie for the past donkeys years, I finally decided i should start contributing... thanks for the encouragement...

All,
Couple of ideas I had to add some twist to this tale... since we are wargaming with such brilliance, how about some darned twisty scenarios??? :idea:

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Reinforcements (Part I) ..... Rearming in the midst of War..

Postby Vasudevan » 29 Aug 2005 07:05

Ever Since the invading armies of Alexander first made their advances on the subcontinent, the land of the pashtuns has remained unconquered. Inhabited by tough, hardy pathans, the land that is now known as the Northwest Frontier Province and the Federally Administered Tribal Areas of Modern Pakistan. A part of Pakistan more in name than any other way, these areas retain their tribal systems of governance, the way of life of the original Islamic warriors. Famed for their fighting men, these areas have produced men of fierce courage, tenacious in the face of the enemy, and brave beyond a doubt.

In the days of the Soviet influence and subsequent debacle in Afghanistan, this 'wild west' of Pakistan provided the foot soldiers of Islam, the mujahedin or holy warriors, who caused the downfall of one of the largest powers on Earth.

And now, answering to that primeval call to arms, to a holy war against the infidel, the pashtuns mobilised. It was a call to Jihad, the Holy war, made that much more bearable by the promise of loot and pillage from that fabled land of riches, the golden sparrow, India.

Tribal lashkars, each consisting of thousands of men, each of them sworn to loyalty unto death to the local tribal leader started gathering in the foothills of those forbidding and hostile mountains that straddle the boundaries of central and south Asia.

These tribal lashkars had been supported by an inflow of cash and arms by the notorious ISI, the intelligence arm of the Pakistan Military establishment. Bolsterd by copious amounts of cash from the lucrative opium trade and benefitting from the unlimited flow of resources that the US poured into this area to defeat the soviets, there are probably more armed men here than anywhere else on earth.

And now, it was payback time. Agents of the ISI activated the tribal Lashkars that form part of the irregular army of pakistan. The last resort to bolster a regular army being mauled by the Indians.

Skilled in the art of war, and veterans of a thousand campaigns against the red army, an army of 200,000 descended on the plains of the punjab. Embedding itself with the regular army pf Pakistan, these irregulars manned defence posts, augmented artillery regiments and provided additional manpower for the armored corps. Vast stores of assault rifles and amunition, left over from the 'Soviet Vietnam' were thrown open to these hordes.

Lahore was under threat. And these warriors were there to ensure that it would never fall while they were alive.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Lt. Gen Obaid disconnected the phone. He could afford the ghost of a smile that crept across his lips. His high brow was dotted with beads of sweat. It had been a close run thing, the Wahabbi are hard people to convince. After days of patient negotiations, in the course of which he had used every ounce of his considerable charm, invoked his relationship with one Arab Royal family to convince another, using logic as effectively as emotional appeal, he had managed to bring about a deal that could well change the course of this war. He had no other choice, the air force of his country had its back broken in that spectacular Indian raid on Sargodha. He could rest now, and as he closed his eyes, he could hear the voice at the other end of the telephone say over and over again "Don't worry, we will help...."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The history of the Sino-Pakistani relationship dates back from the times when Yahya khan had used his personal influence to broker a rapproachment between the US and China. Since then, this relationship has grown. The Chinese provided Pakistan with arms, tanks, warplanes,even missiles and nuclear weapons. In return, Pakistan , ever short of allies, responded with a kind of fawning servitude that makes every hick pakistani in every hick pakistani internet forum defend china and all things chinese more vigourously than his own country.

China for one, has always been interested in a couterweight to India's growing influence in the region and indeed the world. Wary of the growing clout of its southern neighbour, China has been cultivating Pakistan as a hedge against India. And it as been a mutually beneficial relationship. The pakistanis found themselves a benefactor, and China got itself yet another pawn in the great game.

A thin line of tarmac passes through the tall crags of the karakorum, linking pakistan to china through land that was 'ceded' to china by pakistan as a 'goodwill gesture'. This road, known as the Karakorum highway has been used by the pakistanis as a conduit for much of the illicit arms it recieves from China.

For some months before the present conflict was kindled, unusual activity was noticed along this road. large convoys of trucks, container carriers and buses passed along this road headed to Taxila. Unknown to Indian intelligence agencies, these convoys carried the parts for enough tanks to equip an entire Pakistani Armored Division. Assembled at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Taxila in super quick time with the help of chinese engineers, these tanks, dug out from PLA reserves were now ready to be unleashed.

Manned by veteran mujahedin tankers under the watchful eye of officers and men from the pakistan Army, these tanks would now be used against the invading forces. Though nowhere as modern as the Arjuns and the T-90s fielded by India, these tanks nevertheless would make up for the shortfall of numbers in the Pakistan Army and force the Indian commanders to contend with them.

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Re: Kareen Khan addresses the nation

Postby Ananth » 29 Aug 2005 10:01

Vasudevan wrote:Despite our right to avenge this wrongful attack on our people, we restrained ourselves and acted in a resposible manner. Our restraint was repayed by the treacherous Indian government two days later when our chips returning from exercises with the chinese navy were attacked and destroyed in a most brutal manner. Our Naval personnel displayed bravery of the highest order, shooting down three attacking aircraft and two helicopters apart from crippling one Indian surface vessel.


Vasudevan,

good twist. A minor errata to Khan's speech. That was US navy as narrated here by Shankar.

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Some more twists

Postby HarshS » 29 Aug 2005 10:05

Taking the pakistani side in their hour of doom, let's see what else they can throw at us.

1) Pakistan should now use its hackers to try and disable vital Indian infrastructure. The ISI could activate crack teams across the world to break Indian firewalls and attack something, anything. Fat lot of good it will do to them, since even if it succeeds it won't stop our army from creating more Sabharwals.

2) The Gulf states could decide not to sell oil to India and expel all NRIs workign there. That's tough, but (a) we will stop supplying them food (b) We will buy from other countries such as Nigeria and Venezuala, and (c) Iran could swing to our side.
If it gets worse, we in turn could announce a naval blockade of the Straits of Hormuz. Of course, once the price of oil hits USD 125, the USN could warn us off, but we in turn would demand no more blockades or before we leave the Straits, we'll mine it, and at least temporarily block it or (b) destroy a few key pipelines--our existence is also at stake and we will also do whatever it takes.

3) Pakistan could activate its sleeper cells in India and aim for as many terrorist strikes as possible. While India would have arrested a few people, some damage, and a few deaths will take place--but our national will will take it in our stride. This will be especially true, when in one last paroxym of rage, there will be mass attacks in J&K. While, up to three thousand citizens might die, in the ensuring firefight, we could kill 95 percent of the J&K terrorists.

Our countermeasures could include:
1) Using Khan Abdul Wali Khan (Ghaffar Khan's son) to mobilize pro-India feelings among the Pathans, after all the NWFP almost came to India through a plebiscite in 1947.

2) Use Afghanistan to try and mobilize some anti-Pakistan feelings.

3) Use our NRI and PIO population in the US and UK to completely discredit PoK and start recounting all their horrors.

4) Foment trouble in Baluchistan--use special ops (like the US did in Afghanistan in 2001) to attack TSP from another side.

So, if the TSP plays dirty, so can we--there'll be costs, but we'll bear them!

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Postby Ananth » 29 Aug 2005 10:10

Other than Pennathur's elucidation of DDM's reaction, we have not heard that much on that front. CPI(M), Kandel Kisser Association et. al. are not going to be quitely sitting. Following are some voices from modern day Charvakas.

Editorial Page: The Hindu
Unwanted haste regarding illegal migrants
This paper was the one which cheered when NDA goverment led by Hindu fundamentalist lost to secular UPA. But now we hang our heads in shame at the childish exuberence displayed at that time, and come to chilling realization that this goverment is following same myopic policies executed by previous goverment. Certain sections of populations are no longer feeling secure. There is a silent migration of minorities out of communally sensitive areas, resulting in ghettoization and polarization of society.

The position of this paper has always been that though there are illegal Bangladeshis, in this country, the reasons are economic and social rather than political. The scaremongering resorted by some ex-establishment people like Bhibhti Bhushan Nandi, is with ulterior motive of discriminating people of Bangladesh from enjoying same fruits of progress as we are enjoying. It is highly immoral. The previous NDA goverment was only making noices as far as illegal Bangladeshis were concerned. But this goverment, taking the excuse of war, went the whole hog and actually started deporting poor Bangladeshis. Just like jews were thrown out by Nazis, this fascist goverment, without any proof or thought, has started uprooting poor and helpless from thier so-called homes.

We dont think there is any large-scale migration going on in north-east. All this talk of demographic invasion, without any hard-data is just cheap talk. Even if there is minor movement of people across the border, the postion of this paper has always been that as South Asians we should remove any borders and encourage free movement of people.
Last edited by Ananth on 29 Aug 2005 10:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ananth » 29 Aug 2005 10:14

TOI Editorial Editorial Page (2008)

Fascitic attitude and disregard for human rights

If only our suggestion about five years back would have been heeded, we would not have seen that much destruction of human life and property that we are witnessing near our western borders. This editorial came up with a bold out-of-the box idea of designating Kashmir the same status that Switzerland enjoys. The neutrality of Swiss have served them well and brought everlasting peace between erstwhile warring European powers; France and Germany. A similar status of Kashmir would have brought forever peace to South Asia. But our hopes were short-lived, and this brilliant out-of-box idea did not even register on the leadership of facist administration that is heading this country.

As proud South Asians we respect the human rights of our fellow humans, irrespective of caste, creed or nationality. As the readers are aware of the heart-rending story this newspaper broke about the pathetic treatment meted out to people of Sahiwal-Okara region of Pakistan by Indian forces. As a signatory of Geneva and Internation Human Rights Conventions
we feel utterly shameful about the indescriminate way Indian forces were launched on desparate people of Pakistan. Without regard to human life, people were uprooted from their age-old homes and were forced to flee, becoming refugees in their own country. Our valiant correspondent Dileep D' Souza, who came up with the scoop, does not find any differences between Indian Army and Hindu fanatics who mauraded innocent muslims in Gujarat riots. The same irrational religious ferver permeates Indian forces operations without scant regard to comapassion and respect to fellow human beings.

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Postby Ananth » 29 Aug 2005 10:22

Editorial Page: The Outlook

Is this war necessary?
As a land of great exponents of non-violence, our heart bleeds when we see and hear about daily deaths and destruction. The validity of the war is on weak grounds. India was not attacked. As the respected General and Pakistani President very accurately and convincingly stated, this war was thrust upon Pakistanis by wretched acts of our foolish goverment. After all, the real trigger for the war was some minor nuclear explosion that took place. But wait readers, we have news for you. The nuclear explosion was never on Indian soil! Agreed, there were minor blasts in Assam, but ULFA and other insurgents were always there. So that does not absolve GOI from taking action against a soverign country. The same unilateralism that was displayed by USG in its action against, is taken as a clue by this goverment. Therefore we dont see any reaction from major powers.

The rational for lauching actions against Bangladesh was safety of ousted Prime Minister of Bangladesh. But we did not witness any umbarage and anger in Indian Goverment when duly elected goverment in Nepal was deposed by a despotic king. Frankly, are foreign policies of this country based on sound rational decisions or based on religious grounds?

Coming back to nuclear explosions, we are living in very dangerous times. The danger of breaching nuclear threshold is ever so becoming a reality. Resting our case, we again ask, on behalf of silent majority in this country: Is this war necessary?

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Postby Shankar » 29 Aug 2005 13:12

MV PANCHGANI - PORT OF QALHAT -SULTANATE OF OMAN
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Capt Sorab Bhateena stepped out of his spanking new BMW and looked up at his new comand -the 30 million gallong LNG carrier flying the indian flag .The loading of of liquified natural gas into her five double walled storage tanks have just been completed and she was getting ready to sail on her maiden voyage to to Dabhol power corporation LNG terminal located on ratnagiri coast of western india.
She was a monster of a ship with bridge streching upto 51 mtrs from the water line and another 16.5 mtrs under the water . Her total lenght from stern bollard to aft bollard was almost 153 mtrs and dispacment over 100000 tons the only type of ships sailing the worlds oceans which could rival the size of US navy nimitz class super carriers with whom he would share the sea lanes in the days to come . The 30000 h.p marine diesel of hers could push her thru even the heaviest swels at over 12 knots and her state of the art highly computerised auto pilot sysstem made life easy for the capatin and his officers . The auto pilot taking sensor feed from GPS ,sid scan sonar and automated satelite weather update could take her to any pre selected destination within 25 mtrs and more importantly within 2 hrs of predetermined arrival schedule to the designated port approach hold area. The enormous 5 bladed precision machined propeller rotaing between 20 and 100 revolutions per minute could accurately control her speed to within 0.25 knots under any kind of sea condition .Her powerful marconi sea search radar would reproduce in near 3 dimension the sea scape of the busy sea lanes in any kind of weather and it was said by the manufactures that it was safe to sail her with only radar and depth sounder on even in zero visibility . But like all seasoned captains of the sea Shrorab never fully trusted the smart talking sales reps and their sleek brochures . He trusted his instict and judgement and ofcourse the experience of sailing milions of miles thru almost all the oceans of the world from the extra rough north seas to the placid pacific from the unpredictable atlantic to the frozen Barrents it was always his judgement and cool logical reasoning that have saved his charge from disaster quite a few times . He started his carrier at the ripe old age of 23 as 3rd officer in a 20000 ton panama registered ore carrier carrying coal between various australian ports and indian steel city of vizag and marvelled at the sleek deadly kilo submarines of indian navy as they passed him by onto their always classified missions. From then on it was long passage as he progressed from lowly 3rd officer to 2nd officer and then XO when he got his masters ticket and then the tanker endcrsement for very large crude carriers .His last command exposed him to modern tankers it was a 85000 ton crude carrier on a merry go around sailing profile between Baharain and Hongkong . His marriage happened along the way and two pretty daughters all in course of time but sea was always his first love and his ship his only mistress .

USS ABRAHAM LINCHON - SOMEWHERE IN THE ARABIAN SEA NEAR GULF OF OMAN
---------------------------------
Rear Admiral John Adams glanced thru the sailing shedule of the day expected to traversE the gulf of oman.Only one extra large liquified natural carrier was scheduled to sail out of qualhat lng terminal sometime later today and he decided to check it out thoroughly before it enters the open sea of arabia . He picked up the red encrypted phone and issued nessecery instuctions to the task force comander and and the captain of USS Minnesota a Burke class destroyer ,Captain John Travolta recieved his detailed search instructions and comunication protocol within next five minutes .
Two F-14 tomcats took off from the stern catapult in a glory of noise and smoke . Each was armed with a pair of sidewinder aim 9x and extended range sparrows for combat air patrol duty . Also they carried two harpoon air launched version specifically for anti ship use in case a rogue ship is detected .

MV PANCHGANI - PORT QALHAT -SULTANATE OF OMAN
---------------------------------------------------------------
Port Qalhat is perhaps one of the most scenic and modern oil and lng terminal in the world today . On the port side the rugged mountains of oman dropping sharply to kiss the azure blue waters of gulf of oman and on the starboard at a distance the hazy sand duned and rolling sands of great arabian desser streching all the way to Abu dhabi and further down south the flashy city of Dubai .

The state of the art oman lng qalht port in the eastern city of sur caters to the growing lng demand of countries like india,korea and more recently japan .It is located at a sheltered bay on oman north coast approximately 75 miles from the capital city of Muscat and 12 miles from ras al hud. It has two T jettes for LNG loading .

Capt sorab recaptulated all these information as he stepped on the bridege
- capt on bridge intoned first officer shankar shetty as he stepped aside to let the capatain view the operating consoles from radrar scope to GPS monitors where the all the way points have been programmed into .to the loading manifest and trim reports .
sorab was all business like once on board and hated small talks ,so he quickly started issuing the terse commands
- xo please inform harbour master we are ready to take on the pilot
- engine room confirm we are in standby mode
- xo confirm aft and stern tugs are roped in and ready to take slack
- sir harbour pilot request permission to enter bridge
and the process of putting the massive ship into motion started
As the omani harbour pilot took position first the 6 of the eight mooring lines were cast off -the two 5000 horse power tugs pushed against the ship as the last of the two mooring ropes were shed off .
- dead slow ahead ,and the mighty engine came to life ,the massive single screw started turning as the gears were engaged and the two tugs strained to turn the sea demon of a ship on her axis away from her docking pier .
30 minutes later MV Panchgani was on her way dead centre of the outgoing shipping channel and the harbour pilot took leave ,not forgetting to get cap shrab sighn the invoice of 10000 US for the services rendered.
-engine room half ahead ,and the prop revs increased to 65 times a minute and the tanker started picking up speed ,a faint vibration started building up as the screws fought the waves and the roll of the deck became more pronounced . The digital speed indiactor showed 5 knots and increasing . A small wake started forming up as she speeded up .

F-14 FLIGHT ALPHA DELTA US NAVY
-------------------------------------------
It was too large a target to miss for flt lt jim reeves piloting the lead tomcat and he keyed in his mike
- oman shield - alpha delta - suspect ship on main shipping channel - 6 miles from port -grid co-ordinates victor -siera 3/9 -request instructions -over
- alpha delta - keep watch - contact ship on guard -request boarding permission - make low pass if required - you are not weapons free - repeat you rae not weapons free - this is only search for contra band -confirm and out
-roger that oman shield -contacting indian ship for boarding - not weapons free - over and out

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Postby JTull » 29 Aug 2005 14:53

Shankar,

Captain John Tavolta? :D

Just a wee bit over enthusiastic here. It would be stupid to even think about firing harpoons on such large tankers at the center of gulf of oman.

Also, F-14s will certainly be out of offsensive duties by 2008. F-18E/F would be better.

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Postby saty » 29 Aug 2005 15:59

Err JTull why would US be picking a fight with US out of the blue? I guess there is more to the scenario than meets the eye!

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Postby Shankar » 29 Aug 2005 16:24

MV PANCHGANI -GULF OF OMAN
------------------------------------------
Proven recoverable gas reserves in oman are estimated to be nearly one trillion cubic meter equivalent to 0.7 billion tons of LNG .Oman has 1.3 percent of middle east natural gas reserves and 0.5 percent of world reserves.Based on proven recoverable reserves the reserve to production ration in oman is 57.3 years and most of these reserves are located in central oman close to oil fields or associated with it.
Natural gas production in oman at present is 17.3 billion cubic meters or 12.6 million tons of LNG equivalent compared to about 0.4 billion cubic meter in 1980 representing a growth of nearly 195 per annum -which is amongst all the LNG exporters in asia pacific region. When oman began exporting LNG in 2000. About half of omans natural gas production is consumed locally mainly for power generation and about 465 is exported in form of liquified natural gas .
Oman currently has one natural gas liquification plant located close to the port of Qalht comprising of two natural gas liquification trains and capacity 6.6 million tonnes .
It will not be too much out of line to think someday omani econmy will generate more revenue by selling natural gas than crude particularly if bulk customers like KOGAS in korea ,Dabhol in india and Osaka gas in japan continue buying LNG at more and more inflated price every year -mused capt shorab as the VHF transiver on his right crackled to life on the reserved guard frequency
- indian ship MV Panchgani -this is us navy warship USS Minnesota -request permission to come on board - objective crew and load check -please state your intention and no of crews on board plus nature of cargo
As if on a cue the two tomcats flew in over the bridge at 50 ft and banked sharply right dispalying its aweful weapons load ..The bridge of the large tanker shook in unison as the four engines on full military power exited overhead .
Capt shrab was not new to this game since he has been boarded in this dramatic manner quite a few times both in gulf and in kosavo region ,so he was politely sarcastic in his reply
- us navy ship - that last display was not nessecery - complying with your wish is my intention - please be advised my ship is carrying 30 milion gallons of highly inflammable liquified natural gas and any kind hasty action can be catastrphic to the sensitive ecology of the omani coastline
-understood message - sending boarding party -please assemble all crew to forward deck for a head count
The sea king came in out of no where made a quick circle over the exposed forward deck and reported back to mother ship
-indian ship panchgani -head count tallies -pl be advised all hands except master and 2 offcers be confined to forward deck as our boarding party comes aboard . Officers on bridge not to leave bridge withou our express permission - the boarding party is authorised to use deadly force if fired upon or obstructed - stay on this frequency till seach is over- pl stop the ship now .
The F-14 kept on circling the giant tanker barely 2000 ft up its nose gun always trained on the forward deck area where all the crew were being assembled .

USS Minesota could now be seen on a parallel course duplicating the course and speed of the massive LNG carrier -4 zodiacs were lowered and speeded towards MV Panchgani at 25 knots the throttel to their powerful mercury outboard full open and 6 marines to each boat.

- us navy ship -pl understand we need time to stop engine and change over to diesel from fuel oil - need 4 miles to stop
- ok panchgani please make it snappy -we need to search 6 more today
-engine room switch to diesel from furnace oil for quick restart once search is over - put engine full reverse onec fuel switch has been made .
- yes sir captain -fuel switch made - putting main engine on full reverse

The massive 100000 ton lng carrier shuddered as the props reversed and under full power tried to brake the juggernut to a standstill without breaking the ship itself or damaging the extra long heavy duty prop shaft.

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Postby viktor » 29 Aug 2005 17:52

AFAIK, F-18* would carry AIM-9X & AMRAAM as Sparrow has long been out of service. And ithe jockey would be Lieutenant and not Flt Lt in USN. As Flt Lt is rank in Brit/Indian AF. USAF has same rank structure as US Army.
Last edited by viktor on 29 Aug 2005 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Shankar » 29 Aug 2005 17:57

Boarding party from USS Minnesota
------------------------------------------
Corporal Mansoor ali an americal citizen of pakistani origin was first off the lead zodiac onto the the rope ladder lowered by the crew of indian ship . apart from his personal weapons and communication gear he was also carrying a small battery powered water proof personal locator beacon which he intended to place in a suitable corner of the large ship in course of the ensuing routine search by us navy of all ships heading towards or sailing in the vicinity of the carrier group .
The availability of these locator beacons was highly restricted even few years back but with recent FCC ruling now these devices are available for sale all over the continental US. The device has a built in GPS port,battery powered emergency transmitter which when activated by a touch sensitive switch sends a coded signal in inernationally recognised distress frequency to search and rescue agencies in this case it was slightly modified to transmit at a specific frequency monitored by pakisatni navy ships in the area which includes submarines on ESM watch .Also this particular specimen was modified to incorporate a small digital timer allowing it to be automatically activate after approximately 16 hrs -the time expected for the indian ship to clear omani coast and teritorial waters and enter the arabian seas .

The search operation went off with clock work precision . All crews were confined to a single room when us marines went over each room with neutron detectors and also checked the content of five ultra low temperature liquid methane more comonlly known as liquified natural gas being transported at a temperature of minus 162.2 deg c in specially insulated containers .Nothing incrimanating was found nor expected . The us marine boarding party left with lot of hand shaking and thanks -they left nothing behind except the small 400 gms self activating emrgenncy personal locator -which would start sending out its deadly invitation to all pakistani naval ships i the area after a pre arranged interval and on a pre selected frequency .

PNS SAAD
--------------
she lay quite and deep with her power plant making just enough to maintain steerage . All detection systems were on passive mode and she could detect the thunderous roar of quadrapole screws of USS Abraham linchon 100 nautical miles away to the south . She lay inside a fault in the sea bed just of omani coast line at 272 mtrs and every hour the tension built up -the crews were sweating profusely with even the on board air conditioning at minimium power setting to conserve power .The mesma AIP was stil not switched on to conserve liquid oxygen and also the experience of Khalid was not lost on pakistani navy . Commander Dilbag khusharaf was now inherently distrustful with the system but in now he could discard the system altogether . So he planned to switch it on few more hours into the waiting game -once he recieved the coded signal -from MV Panchgani
PN Saad was the best of the best pakistani navy had to offer to marruding indians who have so viciously turned the tide of war in their favour from sinking of khalid to tippu sultan battle group from massive destruction on sargodha to battle fields all over rajastan and punjab the writting was all over the wall . It is true nuclear weapons were still not used but then niether india or pakistan wanted to awaken the sleeping giant (half awake actually) sothe money spent on those strategic weapons of Kareen khan was in effect a big waste .
PNS Saad was a true killer -from the special steel HLES 80 hull to mesma air independent propulsion system,from advanced torpedoes to exocet SM-39 anti ship misiles and cost almost 225 million dollar apiece.The mesma gave her almost 3005 more submerged range . The exocet launched from under the sea gives her a tremendous advantage in getting out of the threat zone after launching the missile and when the target is as large a 100000 ton LNG carrier the chance of miss is almost zero . MV Panchgani was the pride of indian commercial shipping and destruction of which will cut off power to the industrial heart of india and also send a clear message to indian navy that pakistan still rules the waves of arabian sea.
Captain khusharaf took another sip of his diet coke as he pondered over the admirality charts of omani coastal shelf .
So far he has avoided detection by both US and Indian carrier groups on relentless patrol -he had do for 16 more hours and then it will not matter much eiether way -the road to paradise or a shaan e pakistan medal and promotion to rear admiral both for him would be eqully welcome .

INS CHOLA -SOME WHERE IN THE ARABIAN SEA
--------------------------------------------------------------------
On paper she did not exist but under the waves she was very much there known to all the navies of the world - she was an engima an elusive question still not answered . Ressult of decades of reserch and technology development -she had unlimited endurance or almost unlimited range -a submerged speed of 35= knots -equipped with 655 m heavy duty torpedoes - ultra sensitive bow and towed array sonars -she had a warm heart and to cool it needed extra powerful pumps so that it does not melt from her own heat - she was a hungry beast -hungry for blood - between first and second thermocline she hid herself in complete comfort and secrecy - the noisyUS carrier group was way up north -vikramaditya was far behind - she was all alone inthe dark depths arabian sea waiting for something to happen which will justify her being born

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Postby Amarko » 29 Aug 2005 18:34

slurp slurp 8)

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Postby sugriva » 29 Aug 2005 18:39

HarshS,
Excellent points. But I believe that if push came to shove, TSP may use a 15kt -20 kt nuclear
device to hit at an advancing Indian Army Corps inside Pakistani territory.

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Postby Ananth » 29 Aug 2005 19:45

sugriva wrote:HarshS,
Excellent points. But I believe that if push came to shove, TSP may use a 15kt -20 kt nuclear
device to hit at an advancing Indian Army Corps inside Pakistani territory.


What is pakistan territory? All the land occupied by Indians is defacto Indian, and any nuke attack on Indian forces would be considered attack on India and appropriate actions would taken.

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Postby Sunil » 30 Aug 2005 06:37

Sugriva,

I really doubt they are going to nuke their own homeworld. They might nuke land in Sindh for effect but I don't think they are going to risk contaminating their own topsoil.

Vasudevan,

AFAIK there is no such thing as a veteran muj. gunner that is pashtun. The only muj tankies were Tajik / Uzbek defectors from DRA ranks and they never had any tanks - they only fought tanks using hit and run tactics in the mountains. Even that Taliban had to depend on Uzbek mercs and assorted Pakistani irregulars for their tank offensives. I can't see any self respecting Tajik ever getting mixed up in that sort of thing - the Tajiks and the wahhabis kept a rather large distance from each other due to the formers' ties with Iran.

Also the influential mullahs in NWFP aren't Wahhabis. Those are limited in influence to the Punjab area. The Mullahs of NWFP barring the Turi Shias of Parachinar are largely Deobandis and have been for some time now.

The Muj lashkar that could be assembled form population segments in the FATA, PATA and Mardan area would imo be considerably less combat effective than anything that the Potohar boys can manage. The last lashkar of this nature assembled fom places like Kohat, Mardan, Hangu, and Gandaf (to name a few places) met a very sorry fate at the hands of US B-52s in battles that have yet to be named.

A better hope for Gen. Obaid would come from seminaries inside Lahore itself. Those folks at the Naeemia and the Ashrafiya in Lahore pack quite a punch if the events of London are anything to go by. I hear the girls at the Naeemia beat the living s*it out of an ICT riot police unit.

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Postby Umrao » 30 Aug 2005 07:17

JTull wrote:Shankar,

Captain John Tavolta? :D

Just a wee bit over enthusiastic here. It would be stupid to even think about firing harpoons on such large tankers at the center of gulf of oman.

Also, F-14s will certainly be out of offsensive duties by 2008. F-18E/F would be better.


JTull IN reel life too John Travolta is a air enthusiast and recently he completed world wide tour in his own Boeing A/c ( Piloted by himself)

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Postby Yerna » 30 Aug 2005 07:29

He even flew a Qantas 747 with full load from Aus to some other destination.

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Postby Ananth » 30 Aug 2005 08:30

Sunil wrote: I hear the girls at the Naeemia beat the living s*it out of an ICT riot police unit.


When did sarfaz naeemia opened a sorority?

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Postby Vasudevan » 30 Aug 2005 11:31

Sunil wrote:
Vasudevan,

AFAIK there is no such thing as a veteran muj. gunner that is pashtun. The only muj tankies were Tajik / Uzbek defectors from DRA ranks and they never had any tanks - they only fought tanks using hit and run tactics in the mountains. Even that Taliban had to depend on Uzbek mercs and assorted Pakistani irregulars for their tank offensives. I can't see any self respecting Tajik ever getting mixed up in that sort of thing - the Tajiks and the wahhabis kept a rather large distance from each other due to the formers' ties with Iran.


ah.. thats my mistake, evidently my knowledge of the chaps who fought in afghanistan leaves much to be desired... how about the tanks being manned by reserves??

Also the influential mullahs in NWFP aren't Wahhabis. Those are limited in influence to the Punjab area. The Mullahs of NWFP barring the Turi Shias of Parachinar are largely Deobandis and have been for some time now.


never said anything about the mullahs from NWFP being wahhabis... :) ... note i used the 'wahhabi card' mentioning royal families from arabia.. more on that of course in 'reinforcements part II'... its in the works :D

The Muj lashkar that could be assembled form population segments in the FATA, PATA and Mardan area would imo be considerably less combat effective than anything that the Potohar boys can manage. The last lashkar of this nature assembled fom places like Kohat, Mardan, Hangu, and Gandaf (to name a few places) met a very sorry fate at the hands of US B-52s in battles that have yet to be named.


I admit I took a leaf out of the 1947 kashmir war and to some extent the subsequent ones. Atleast in the case of 1947, tribal levies had been raised from the NWFP and FATA... to some extent in the subsequent wars... plus one has to account for ISI influence in the area and their gift for rabble rousing... nothing like a sob story about cute li'l SFTA kids being bombed by kaffirs to rouse up the tribal masses... as I said, there has to be some payback for all the dollars and guns that went into the region.... wasnt there some analysis about the irregulars being organised by mushy when we were knockin on their borders after the parliament attack??

A better hope for Gen. Obaid would come from seminaries inside Lahore itself. Those folks at the Naeemia and the Ashrafiya in Lahore pack quite a punch if the events of London are anything to go by. I hear the girls at the Naeemia beat the living s*it out of an ICT riot police unit.


sure...add all undesirables to the mix... confronted with a threat to nationhood, the pakis are liable to throw cannon fodder from all over into the fray...of course, the cannon couldnt care less where the fodder came from...

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Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2005 12:30

there are some mujahid batallions assigned to J&K sector and they train with PA also, officers are deputed from PA and ISI. their role would be in rear areas to free up regular PA units for offensive ops. they can perform base security, guarding supply chain, controlling POW camps, keeping the civilian population quiet.
ofcourse they will fight directly if given the chance.

since everyone in NWFP and FATA has a gun, presumably given the right degree of "islam khatre me hein" agitprop, a loose group of around 50,000 fighters organized into lashkars could be roused in a few days. Tribal chiefs could be squeezed hard to donate fighters to the cause in exchange for letting them keep their little fiefdoms.

however fighting IA is vastly different from fighting ragtag small NA forces, so a conventional hi-tempo mobile cohesive large unit battle would be difficult for these irregulars to undertake. if a town or pass is under siege they will do ok.

Pennathur
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Postby Pennathur » 30 Aug 2005 20:38

Is the TSPA going to commit an entire Armoured Division with no air cover worth the name? What is this defensive offence?

TSPAF Losses to date - pl correct.
Commas separate engagements

F-16
Eastern sector - 3 Jakob+, 6 Jakob+
Western sector - 6 Jamnagar

M3
A. Sea - 6 AI hijack

F7 - 2 over JK, many more lost to advancing IBGs

Sargodha
F16 - 8 CAP; on ground 16
M3, - on ground (?)
F7 - on ground (?)

Tally

F16 - 39 Balance = 31
F7 - 30 (?) Balance = 50 (?)
M3 - 14 (?) Balance = 26 (?)

Other assets virtually untouched?

Looks like TSPAF is still very defensive.

According to wags (wise xxs guessers!) TSPAF exploits its weaknesses by concentrating assets. From the scenario so far, that has meant throwing mass at high value economic targets with high risk missions win all/lose all. If that is the game plan why so few missions? It is about 10 days from the sinking of the INS Brahmaputra to the attack on MV Panchgani. I am not saying that it is not possible. It is perfectly in line with what the TSPAF has done in earlier engagements. Confused higher direction and an inability to convert local temporary dominance into gains on the ground, provoking the existential question, what is airpower for? Attacking high value targets with mass seems to be so WW2ish; makes sense in a ponderous large scale war. Doing so on a smaller battlefield without any moves to follow up on the ground does not seem smart at all.

Would the TSPAF work this way?

It would because for the higher levels of command the TSP armed forces are simply a means to loot the economy and share the spoils. The TSPAF and TSPN are koi hais and paltu kuttas waiting for scraps at the master's table. And with Messaraff having run the show for over 6 years now all senior commanders must be eating out of his palm and owe their postions substantially to their weak spines.

It would not work this way because even the TSP armed forces can learn fom history. Even if they have been forced to begin this war in set-piece fashion higher command in the other two services may be asserting itself and in concert with some smart TSPA young officers may be coming up with a very different game plan. With 50% strength still left and with serviceability of 80% the TSPAF may decide to throw itself full time into territorial defence at the the advancing forces leaving the TSPN to harrass Indian shipping after throwing out flunkies who planned the disastrous AI hijack and Bhakra adventures. Thus they could buy time - most precious.


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