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Possible Indian Military Scenarios - Part III

Sunil
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Postby Sunil » 30 Aug 2005 22:28

Hi Vasudevan

ah.. thats my mistake, evidently my knowledge of the chaps who fought in afghanistan leaves much to be desired... how about the tanks being manned by reserves??


I have difficulty imagining such a thing. The Pakistanis cannot currently train reserves as they have a hard time keeping the existing formations well trained. I don't know where they are going to get the money to train another tank division much less tool it up. I don't doubt that they could probably muster a few thousand reserves from their government pasand tribes like Yusufzai, Khattak, Arbab, Mehsud etc... but these would be even less effective than the FC units in balochistan currently are. These guys are okay for looting and pillaging but the only form of disciplined activity that they can undertake is probably patrolling a border. Thats abou it. Their commitment will be of poor quality and their organization will be deficient.

It is one thing for the Pakistanis to raise a lashkar from Afghan refugees at camps in Landi Kotal, Kohat, Parachinar etc... to fight some 50,000 soviet troops spread out over the mountains of Afghanistan but if the same approach is used to hit 120,000 Indian troops moving at high speed across the plains of Punjab - then the results will not be comparable.

never said anything about the mullahs from NWFP being wahhabis... :) ... note i used the 'wahhabi card' mentioning royal families from arabia.. more on that of course in 'reinforcements part II'... its in the works


Okay perhaps I misunderstood you but I find it hard to believe that you could elicit the support of a large number of people in the NWFP or Northern Balochistan region without the support of MMA mullahs. Given the extent to which the current Gov. Pak has alienated these people it is difficult to imagine there being an effective recruiting drive.


I admit I took a leaf out of the 1947 kashmir war and to some extent the subsequent ones. Atleast in the case of 1947, tribal levies had been raised from the NWFP and FATA... to some extent in the subsequent wars... plus one has to account for ISI influence in the area and their gift for rabble rousing... nothing like a sob story about cute li'l SFTA kids being bombed by kaffirs to rouse up the tribal masses... as I said, there has to be some payback for all the dollars and guns that went into the region.... wasnt there some analysis about the irregulars being organised by mushy when we were knockin on their borders after the parliament attack??


I agree there will be propaganda aimed at getting these tribes to come to the Government of Pakistan's side but the situation in Kashmir in 1947 is quite different from the situation facing them in 2008. They are watching a fully geared Indian army of a million or so fanning out across the bulk of Pakistani punjab with well planned airsupport. Such an Indian expedition will come with a mind bent on complete destruction there will be no desire to leave a blade of grass standing it is aftermath. This is very very different from how the IA went into Kashmir in 1947.

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Postby Manne » 30 Aug 2005 23:58

Unknown to Indian intelligence agencies, these convoys carried the parts for enough tanks to equip an entire Pakistani Armored Division. Assembled at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Taxila in super quick time with the help of chinese engineers, these tanks, dug out from PLA reserves were now ready to be unleashed.


This sounds unlikely. In times of war, that is one road which will be watched with eyes peeled.

Sunil
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Postby Sunil » 31 Aug 2005 01:34

Ananth wrote:
Sunil wrote: I hear the girls at the Naeemia beat the living s*it out of an ICT riot police unit.


When did sarfaz naeemia opened a sorority?


Hi,

IIRC the naeemia has been coed for a long time? though girls are separated from boys during instruction.

Pennathur
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Postby Pennathur » 31 Aug 2005 04:00

:roll: How about avoiding this term elite. Good warriors don't make a fuss about themselves. That's for the flunkies of tinpot dictators. The Indian Armed Forces train like hell and don't give a damn for any elite clothes horses and they will kick the sh!+ out of anyone who is foolish enough to mess around with them. :evil: These DDM make it sound as if we keep one set of goosestepping trapeze artistes for the show and bring out some elite forces for the sahibs. Heck the Indian armed forces are the elite.

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Postby Shankar » 31 Aug 2005 12:47

INS CHOLA- SOMEWHERE IN NORTH ARABIAN SEA
-------------------------------------------------------------
Capt Singha was involved with this sub right from the day construction started and before that as xo in INS CHAKRA the charlie class sub leased out by the indian navy for few years to get a feel for extended submerged operation about a totaly differrent propulsion system and safety concepts . Arguably Chola was far more advanced than a charlie and much more silent with each piece of tubing and machinery mounted on individulised shock absorbing mounting .There were no hull piercing and the connection between the periscope ,electronic support mast antena and other control protrusions linked to attack control center thru fibre optic connectors . The 250 mega watt energy pressurised water reactor was fuelled by enriched uranium oxide fuel rods arranged in concentric circles which inturn surrounded by highly poilished nickel reflector rods to improve fission efficeancy . The primary heat extraction was by high pressure water at a pressure of more than 175 times atmospheric at a temperature close to 600 deg c ..The water in this primary heat extarction circuit was not allowed to boil since water vapour or steam degrades the quality of uranium fission . The hot pressurised water is circulated thru a primary heat exchanger or steam generator where it exchanged heat with colder water t less than 150 times atmospheric pressure and it is this secondary water which vaporised forming superheated steam . The superheated steam from steam generator first passed thru a high presure steam turbine coupled to a reducing gear box to the main drive shaft and the exhaust from the high pressure steam turbine fed another set of low pressure turbine which produced power for the subs air conditioning,on board de salination plant,oxygen generator ,air purifier , the host of electronics and sonr systems ,the navigation and attack computers and last but not the least the subs galley for all those hot samosas and chicken tikka without which lift would be oh so dull .

Capt Singha poured over the admirality charts of north arabian sea and gulf of oman with lt comander vikash ghosh his xo .The last XXIS -ship to shore satelite information exchange have confirmed the possibility of PNS S aad some where in the region having left its home base karachi 3 days back . It was last spotted by an IL-38 may somewhere south west of karachi but quickly dived before it could be engaged . The IL-38 was running low on fuel and did not pursue the contact -but passed on the inforamtion to western sub command and now lay on his chart table .

- tell me vikash if you are the agosta commander what would be your objective in this part of the ocean
- sir i am not sure but even if i am a very brave captain i will not willingly tangle with the sea wolves or la class that screen the USS Abraham Linchon
- agreed , what then is your alternate objective
- sir i would try to sink Gorshkov oops sorry Vikramaditya
- ok how would you do that
-wait quitely in its path and hope the escorting underwater screen of HDW s and kilos donot blow me out of water and once they pass over go to periscope depth =take a positive sighting and then launch everything including the exocets at her -and then try to escape which may not be possible.
- ok vikash your scenario is plausible but highly unlikely . Vikramaditya is well down south and because of presence of USN carrier group in the persian gulf and st of hormuz with occasional forrays into omani gulf and our own two carrier groups all over northern arabain sea i donot think even a very brave pakistani commander will try a frontl attack -this is not second world war you know
- right sir replied Vikash suitably chastised by his superior
- ok what else
- sir they may try sinking one of our very large crude carriers or for that matter an ultra large LNG carrier or may be even hijack one and crash it into karwar naval base -who knows how thos crazy pakistanis will act -look what they tried with air india 747
-you have point there Vikash - please ask for a sailing schedule of all large carriers leaving gulf and omani ports let us push inland for a few miles so that we can give more effective cover in case the pakistani navy really do try such a stunt - inform USN commander of this possibility and stay out of possible engagement zone
The sleek ship of war rose smothly on its diving planes to periscope depth,raised the ESM antena and a quick encrypted burst transmission to a geosynchronous satelite orbitting overhead and she was back in her elements of dark depth
- steer course 290 -make depth 150 mtrs -1/4 th ahead . The perfectly machined screw started turning rapidly without ant visible cavitation and the the 6700 ton killer went on prowl very very silently . Over the next hours she would change course randomly -change speed from 30 to 5 knots and then back to 30 knots to clear her datum and to catch the faintest mistake of her query - her towed array sonar could detect a metalic tarnsient noise at more than 150 miles ,her bow mounted sonar could detect the hot breath of a mating whale 40 miles away and her accoustic processor could differentiate the a new dhow from a year old one . With Chola on the prowl there was no place to hide . But she herself was invisible in the accoustical world of deep seas as long as she did not rush - at 35 + knots she could catch any prey submerged or surface type once she put her mind to it - now she started looking for Saad

PRESIDENTS OFFICE -ISLAMABAD
----------------------------------------
Kareen khan was not happy about the latest plan of his navy chief -about sinking the LNG carrier off the coast of Oman . That arae was full of american and indian warships well versed with the art of sub hunting . And also Saad was only one of two good submarines left so far . He agreed to go with the proposal only because he hoped it would boost the morle of his army fighting a loosing battle and his airforce with much of its teeth gone still was in the battle frame . They needed a symbolic victory ,Kareen khan hope MV Panchgani would provide him the icon over which he could rally his forces for a last ditch counter strike.

He was not aware of INS Chola

Yerna
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Postby Yerna » 31 Aug 2005 13:26

Is it realistic for a Xo of a 1990 sub to captain a ship in 2007? Just one or two promotions in 17 years?

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 31 Aug 2005 15:45

INS CHOLA
--------------
For captain singha the road to command the most prestgious and advanced submarine in indian navy was not easy . It took all of 17 years despite having in a degree in electrical engineering he had to finish a masters in nuclear engineering on govt money . His first full comand was an old foxtrot class which was soon decommissioned . Between the post graduate degree in nuclear engineering and short stint on a foxtrot 6 yrs went by . But his academic excellence was not missed by his superior officers or rusian naval officers who ineracted with him on a regular basis . When the advanced technology vehicle was finally unveiled he was the natural choice to liase between russain technical team ,BARC and the indian navy .In between the bosses up in delhi decided he is the right material for commanding Chola still under fabrication and allowed him a stint as one of the HDW commanders for 3 yrs intermittantly . In the last six years when the ATV was actually taking shape physically he was a almost a monthly flier between the humid and frozen oceans a world apart. And after all the hardship and and back braeking labour today he had the privilage of comand . He now did not want another promotion which would make him a desk sailing admiral and that he made known to his superiors .

MV PANCHGANI - GULF OF OMAN
---------------------------------------------
- Full speed ahead ,the soft spoken command of capt sorab brought immediate response from the engine room as the chief engineer pushed up the artificial force feed back thrttle setting to max power and the massive marine engine rumbled into top gear generating all of 30000 deliverable shaft horse power which thru the massive reducing gear box turned the single 5 bladed reversible pitch propeller to all of 100 revolutions per minute . Fot the first time the massive ship generated the feeling of pitching action as the bow dipped into the waves by more than 2 mtrs and even the built in baffles inside the 5 six million gallon foam insulated LNG sperical containers failed to damp out fully the sloshing of the super cold cryogenic fuel.

Adjusting the trim of such a large ship need special skill and specific knowledge . Since most of the ships machinery is palced in the back the loading and ballasting has to be done very carefully so as to make it some what bow heavy at the onset of the journey so that by the time she reaches the destination port she is more or less in even keel by burning of most of fuel oil stored in back.

Most modern LNG carriers uses the boil of natural gas as fuel -this help keep the pressure in the LNG tanks under control and also allows more payload space. However though captain sorab -this is not the case with Panchgani which was a converted super carrier and still used old fasioned furnace oil/diesel for her propulsive needs.

The gulf of oman passed by the bridge offering a panaromic view of the gulf as well as the rugged mountains of oman . Capping the eastern end of arabian peninsula omans total land area is around 212460 sq km .As not all the countries borders are well defined .Valleys and desert account for nearly 825 of all land mass.,mountain ranges 15 5 and coast 3%.

Flanked by gulf of oman ,the arabian sea and Rub-al-khali(empt quarter) of saudi arabia the country has been quite isolated .Contact with rest of the world has been by sea providing access to foreighn lands and linking the coastal towns of oman. The rub al khali forma a natural barrier between oman and arabian interior .The al hajar mountain which run between the coast and the desert from the Masandam peninsula to the city of Sur at omans eastermost point form anotherbarrier . These natural geographic feature divides the country into seven distinct areas .

The northermost area Ruus al Jibal extends from Musandam peninsula to united arab emirates border and is seperated from the rest of sultanate by a strip of teritory belonging to UAE . Also two mountain ranges called al-hajar-al-gharibi mountains and al-hajar-al-sharqi mountains arelocated inland .the two ranges are divided by a valley and forms a traditional route between Muscat the capital city and the omani interior.

With the exception of Dhofar region which has mild monsoon climate and is cooled by winds from indian ocean ,the climate in rest of oman is extermely hot and dry most of the year . The highest temperature registered inland is more than 50 deg c in many places .

Omans position on one of the most important trade route of ancient world has endowed it with a rich and varied history of invasion and economic fortune. The arabs of oman were prominent amongst early converts tto islam . According to history prophet Muhammad sent one of his military commanders to oman to convert the persian garrison who were zoorastrian and the loacl arab inhabitants who were christians . the persian rejected the offer whereas the arabs embraced it going on to expel the persians from oman .

For much of the 10th century the followeres of quarmat were the most powerful force in the gulf controlling much of omans coastline ,evantually they succumbed to the strong leaders from mesoptemia and persia and tribes from interior .

The geography of the contry and its strategic importance has tarditionally led oman to aquire a dual nature .While foreighneres like Quarmatians normally controlled the coast the inerior was usally controlled by Ibadi an early shia sect.The net ressult is the traditional difference in attitude to foreighners between the interior and the coastal areas. Coastal omanis who long enjoyed the prosperity of overseas trade never harbored the intense hostility towards outsiders like Ibadi community living in interiors.

The portugeeses were the first europeans to arrive .They captured several coastal cities in the gulf when the iranian shah of the time co opting british and french help to contain the portugeese threat. As a ressult of british success in getting rid of portugeese for the iranians Britain became a major power in the region by begining of 9th century. This also allowed the Ibadi to take control of omani coast for the first time .

This opened a a chapter in omani history when they prospered under indegenious rule. The omanis increased their influence to interior what is now called UAE and also to muslim cities of east africa that had been established by omani traders in 10 and 11 th century . Zanzibar was was an omani strong hold during this time.

In a bid to control piracy on their principle shipping route from india the british made treaties with coastal nations of the gulf . oman however was never a party to such agreements. The discovery of oil was a tremendous boon to omani economy in 1967.

Singha
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Postby Singha » 31 Aug 2005 15:50

> Shankar

that you thank you Sir! a pleasure to captain INs finest boat.

> Yerna

four promos and two demos for unruly behaviour, insubordination, conspiring with subordinates against superior officers, lack of adherence to dress code,
petty theft of liquor from various messes, periodic awol for reasons unknown, punching a visiting PLAN admiral on the nose over a violent argument,
:twisted:
however good human relations with Admiral Koshy enables this wayward officer to keep a operational job with a severe line of red marks in service records :rotfl:

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 31 Aug 2005 17:14

singha -Chola was your creation so it is only fair you get to command it -why not add a paragraph detailing its design and capabilities as you see it -while i delve into history gepgraphy and economy of oman and then come back to the brewing conflict in northern arabian sea .

daulat
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Postby daulat » 31 Aug 2005 17:36

Shankar wrote:singha -Chola was your creation so it is only fair you get to command it -why not add a paragraph detailing its design and capabilities as you see it -while i delve into history gepgraphy and economy of oman and then come back to the brewing conflict in northern arabian sea .


control of african slave trade and indian ocean routes, horse and other shipment to india, etc. bitter fights with portuguese over control of sea routes, eventual victor along east african coast, seeking protection from british or atleast a non-aggression pact as brits came to naval prominence globally. uneasy relationship following british abolition of slavery, gradual diminuition of importance as economics changed, remained west leaning and pro british

see 'empires of the monsoon' for more

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 01 Sep 2005 12:33

MV PANCHGANI -GULF OF OMAN
-----------------------------------
Capt Soorab was jerked out of thought train by the rude beep of ships satelite phone ,,it was ships agent calling from Mumbai
- captain we have some good and some bad news
- ok Modi give me the good news first
- captain we have got full years contract with dabhol power for LNG shipment in your ship at at good rate which includes a bonus for you and your crew subject to minimum number of deliveries
- ok modi now that the good news is over -what is the bad news
- captain I have been been informed by reliable govt sources that in view of current conflict situation your ship may be a possible target by hostile naval forces -you are authorised to deviate from your programmed course once in high seas and exceed max economic speed at your discretion
- roger that Modi -shall do the need full - please dont forget to add a hazard bonus at the end of the trip -over and out

Captains eyes clouded over as he thought over what has just been told over satcom . He did not rate his chance of survival very high if a pakistani ship or sub decides to make a strike however he decided to do best he can . For this he quickly decided to make a makeshift noise maker system out of a long length of flexible rubber hose connected to the LNG tank vent lines and let it trail behind the ship with the natural gas comming out of the tube creating an artificial noise generator nearly mimicking the cavitation noise of her giant screw . It was not exactly a nixie torpedo decoy but it will have to do thought capt Soorab as he picked up the intercom to his first officer .

INS CHOLA -NORTH ARABAIN SEA - NEAR GULF OF OMAN - 0100 hrs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capt Singha glanced over the sailing schedule of indian ships transiting the gulf of oman ,there were no very large crude carrier sailing at the moment with the exception of TOKYO MARU a 150000 ton crude carrier of jap registry which have just cleared port and at 6 knots not likely to enter the northern arabian sea in another day .Only indian ship sailing at the moment is M V Panchgani a 100000 ton liquidfied natural gas carrier on her way to Ratnagiri coast -expected to clear omani teritorial waters and enter international waters in about 8 hrs time .

- vIkash ,if what you are thinkink is right and i more or less agree -the pakis will take a shot at Panchgani in about 8 hrs time .They will not do close to omani coast or in the gulf of oman as that will surely spoil their so called friendly relations for ever . They will do it in the seas around us and then try make a quick dash to Karachi or Gadar
-in that case sir -we need some heavy assistance -preferable a bear from goa and a couple of sea kings from Vikramaditya
-roger that xo -take us upto periscope depth - get on the horn to command and and then lets start earn our pay .

Once the transmission has been made and the sub once again back to her most effective evasive depth of 153.5 mtrs as computed by her navigation computer getting feed from the bathyscope installed outside the pressure hul which continiously monitored the water temperature and salinity to determine the optimum depth and also the speed . However it was perogative of the sub captain to overide the computers advise which they frequently did in matters of speed but very rarely on depth . After all the underwater world of submarines is a world of accoustics dictated by background noise , water temperature gradient ,salinity level ,reflection and refraction of sound waves within and between different thermal layers or thermclines and a computer can do these judgement far better than a human brain.
- sir it was XO Vikash onec again
- yes vikash replied singha in somewhat detached manner as he was already planning how to trap the hostile sub before it can harm the LNG carrier
- what is LNG
Singha was forced to give a basic lecture on this cryogenic fuel to his eager to learn xo

LNG is liquified natural gas or methane that has been cooled to an extremely cold temperature of -162 deg c and normally found in association with crude oil fields or seperately as in natural gas fields . Specially designed ships are used to transport LNG to user terminal s where it is re gassified and fed to pipe grid. LNG tankers usally have a membrane containment ssytem built in to prevent any catastophic spill of this cold liquified gas . LNG is produced by cooling natural gas to -162 deg c which converts the gas to a liquid easier to store and transport since liquification is accompanied by a significant volume reduction by a factor of almost 600.
Contrary to popular belief LNG is not explossive -when LNG is heated and coverted to gas it is explossive when confined but in the open it will not explode .It is flammable only within a narrow band 5% to 15 % . Less air do not contain enough oxygen to sustain the flame while more air dilutes the gas too much for it too ignite.

However if a torpedo or missile would tear into the inner product containg vessel of a LNG tanker and make a big enough hole the the escaping liquid will quickly vaporise by absorbing heat from atmosphere and then a small spark or fire can set it on fire ressulting in possible explossion or a giant fire ball . In a recent AP report it was stated that a LNG tanker attack could be devastating and may set off a fire so hot that it will burn skin and damage buildings nearly a mile away. This report forms a part of classified report from nuclear weapons lab and somehow obtained by AP

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 01 Sep 2005 16:10

NAVAL AIR STATION -DABOLIM GOA -MARINE DRAGON FLT 0230 hrs
-------------------------------------------------------
Wing commander Sujit chatterjee had a bad hang over . He was not scheduled for todays northern patrol but an urgent request from INS chola somewhere in northern arabian sea for spooking an elussive agosta have got him out of his bed in wee hours of morning

- Morning commander -sorry to disturb your sleep but ther was no one else -hope you understand ,came the ever cheerful voice of naval air station commanding officer over the ATC frequency
- yes sir understand sir (though he did not understand at all ) was the only smart reply he could manage
- carry on Sujit -get that bloody sub for me -happy hunting
- thank you sir

- Marine dragon flight you are cleared for take off -fly runway heading - climb to 45000 ft and contact Dabolim departure once you reach altitude for course vector and altitude
- roger that tower , cleared for take off and climb to 45000 ft -contact tower once in altitude - rolling now - over

His first officer squadron leader Dilbag singh was cool as cucumber ,as if hunting an agosta was a daily routing like changing girlfriends in the somewhat liberal city of Goa

The cloud celing was low at less than 2500 ft and the wind from ocean building up slowly to near gale force -it would be an interesting take off with max load of sonobouys and torpedoes though Sujit as he checked the flap settings ,oil presuure ,fuel content guage for one last time and pushed the collective throttle lever all the way forward .

The bear dipped its nose in angry protest as Sujit stood on the brakes to allow the four eight bladed contra rotating prop build up thrust and then smoothly eased his feet up letting the mighty beast go her own way fighting the wind and gravity . The four turbo-prop generated together nearly 50000 shaft horse power to acclerate the heavy bomber (that is what it really is ) converted to maritime patrol aircraft to its minimum take off speed of 140 knots .The runway at dabolim is long and so Sujit allowed the massive NK 12 MV powr plants build up some more air speed before pulling back on the control stick very very gently . At firast nothing happened and the end of runway came rushing in and then slowly and majectically the grace ful russian air craft took to air with all the grace of a ballet dancer -it bored into the turbulant clouds without a check only a shudder thru the airframe indiacted change of wind speed and possible gusty condition outside and then slowly the it pulled out of weather into the bright sunshine at 40 000 ft nearing its designated cruise altitude of 45000 ft .
- dabolim tower -marine dragon flt- climbing thru 40k to 45k -request mission vector and special instructions -over
- marine dragon - set course 310 -distance to search zone approx 1200 miles - coast omega mango alpha nancy -suspect hostile agosta tracking commercial shipping - assist - india charlie in region - you are authorised to communicate direct to india charlie using ssix -your authorisation code is orange sun - keep this frequency open for further instruction - avoid contact with local navy if possible- over and out .

The Tu-142 bear banked left and kept on climbing to its designated altitude and course ,Sujit looke at his co pilot hoping to see some kind of excitement but was as usal dissapointed to see none .

Surya
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Postby Surya » 01 Sep 2005 16:25

Shankar:

Don't think one is going to give mission instructions on Radio

JCage
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Postby JCage » 01 Sep 2005 21:45

I think with the new bunch of freqhopping encyrpted radios- INCOM and the like- radio instructions are more secure. But I agree that mission planning would have been done before, not on the runway!

This is a bit like all the strategy games, where you get instructions at beginning of the game.

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 02 Sep 2005 12:40

TU-142 MARINE DRAGON FLT 650 MILES WEST OF DABOLIM 0400 HRS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night flying over ocean alwys manged to disorient the pliot ,even the most experienced one thought Sujit as he scanned the old fashioned instrument bank once agin .The dark phosphorescent ocen below with an even darker horizon in the distance with absolutely no visible reference points mad the skill of instrument flying a life saving skill . Another hour to go before he would start his descent to 5000 ft and start the sub hunting routine. The last communication he had with Capt singha on SSIX more or less confirmed his thought on the subject

1) if there is a paki sub in the area it has to be an agosta -no other pakistani sub has this kind of range and endurance .
2) it is lyiing in wait somewhere in the rocky shallow sea bed off the coast of oman
3) for the moment it was not moving much otherwise chola would have detected it long back
4) Most likely it was not aware of Chola -because it would be very stupid sub commander who would try to play the waiting game with a nuclear sub .just on the strength of his air independent propulsion system .

So his job would be spook the snake out of its hole before it can strike an unarmed indian commercial ship most likely the LNG carrier Panchgani .
For that he had a whole arsnel of weapons stored aboard from aerial torpedoes to depth charges to active sonoboyas but to use those he has to locate the damned stealthy sub first
For that he needed to use the magnetic anamoly detector located in the extended tail boom of the Bear . He hoped a series of low level MAD in a grid search manner will allowm him to pin point the approximate position of the large conventional sub without the sub getting any wiser . INS Chola would be in touch from 0530 hrs onwards at periscope depth and listening with pasive sonar only . Once an approximate location has been fixed by MAD run he would use active sonobouyas to get an accurate fix an drop a torp on top .This will surely get the pakistani sub moving out his hole and then to the waiting arms of the continents most deadly submarine
The origin of Bear may be traced back to 1945 when several B-29 damaged by japaneeses air defenses landed in russian teritory . While the crews went back to warm home land the aircrafts never left the frigid wasteland of siberia. Engineers from Tupolov stripped the damaged aircrafts down and had a reasonably good idea of the design aspects of long range bombers.
After second world war russia needed a long range high payload bomber and it is said though never publicly admitted by rusisians Tu-4 was nothing but a modified B-29 . The russians it is alleged copied the air frame,powerplants systems and unique fire control system which allowed the four gun tur rets to be remotely controlled . the notable difference was the installation of NS 23 cannons inplace of 50 cal guns of B-29.

Subsequently as the russian aerspace industry matured the Tu-4 design was subsequently upgraded to Tu-80 and Tu -85 evantually adopting the characteristic glazed nose and step forward fuselage used even now.Niether of thes aircraft models were very successful and russians ultimately turned to newly developed turbojets and turbo props thus spawning two major families of air craft -The Badger and Bear .

The Badger and Bear were both singularly landmark events in russian aircraft design . The evolutionary aspect was the fuselage design which hinted at the boeing ancestory the russian input was the addition of swept back wings and turbine power plants.

The Tu-95 was designed in early 1950 s and flew first in 1955.The glazed nose houses the navigator bombardier station and is followed by a conventional flight deck with dual control. Access to rear pressurised area is thru a ventral hatch. The fuselage weapon bay is situated below and aft of the wing roots and could fit several high yield nuclear weapons .

The Tu-142 entered service in1970 s and essentially tasked with long range anti-submarine warfare patrol amd maritime recon .The fuselage is fitted with an A style but lengthened forward fuselage wit a glazed nose and chin radome as on some Bear D s ,inflight refuelling probes ,increased wind screen depth and bulged nose wheel doors. .The ventral radome of surface search radar a later derivative of of famed big bulge was shiftwd forward to allow stores carriage in the main weapons bay. These include torpedoes and depth charges . The ventral and dorsal barbettes were removed to provide space for the sonbuoy dispenser bay. The magenetic anamoly detector boom is carried on top of the vertical stabiliser

- captain we are approaching the target zone -request permission to cut power and start descent to 5000 - ft
The cool voice of his first officer brought Sujit back to immediate reality
-roger that xo -cut poer to 65% - set descent rate 2500 ft/min -alertt MAD operator to get ready for the first MAD run at 4500 ft
- sonobouy dispenser bay -keep active ready -drop on my command
- swit ch on surface search radar - max resolution
- alert command and Vikramaditya group weare starting the mad run and shall follow with active pinging
-alert Chola to stay out of grid sector charlie -delta and delta alpha

The mammoth aircraft strted dropping out of its near stratospheric cruise height to sea level with a slight dipping of the nose and marked reduction in prop noise .All system operators tensed up with the anticipation of a possible hunt and then slowly the russian bear leveled out to make the first of many mad runs .

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Postby JCage » 02 Sep 2005 14:09

why would anyone hunt a sub with a sub, when they have ships and aircraft for that?
The ATV is meant to act as part of a triad, not snoop around taking risk as a SSK!

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Postby Surya » 02 Sep 2005 14:17

right. you don't take off and get a mission as you level off.

There is tons and tons of planning before any sortie.

Also with encryption you got be careful - there are things to be said with encryption and things not to be said

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Postby Shankar » 02 Sep 2005 16:32

PNS SAAD -SOMEWHERE OF THE EASTERN COAST OF OMAN -0415 HRS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capt Khusharaf finished his 6th can of diet coke and wiped his brow for the nth time as he finally decided to take his ship up to ESM depth . Indian tanker was supposed to be emmiting a locating signal on pre arranged frequency and should be comming out of the gulf of oman any time now .
- helsman make depth 10 mtrs
-engine room set revolutions for 7 knots
He had no idea about the net forming around him .He did not know the vastly superior indian navys strike capability is being allighned against him at that very moment . He did not know with the just delivered routine command he has signed the vitual death warrant of the ship and its crew . But then he was not God and he didnot have the ability to read future

INS VIKRAMADITYA SOME WHERE IN THE ARBIAN SEA -0500 hrs
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- Clear deck for aircraft launch
- boomed the pa system on deck and every rushed for cover as one after another 4 mig 29k s rocketed into brightening night sky to provide top cover to navy bear on sub hunt .All of them were equipped a mixed array of R-73 and R-77 and ready for any evantuality .

INS CHOLA - SOMEWHERE NEAR GULF OF OMAN-0500 hrs
----------------------------------------------------------
Capt Singha stood by the sonar console intently watching the waterfall dispaly with a head phone mounted on his turbaned head . Sonar operator Vaibhav sanghi was intent on seperating a narrrow frequecyband out of mass of oceanic background noise bu feverishly manipulating the computerised accoustic processor slaved to the towed array sonar system . However his efforts have not generated much concrete ressult so far .Eiether the agosta was simply not where he thought it would be or it is being extar careful .
He knew his options and time were both running out .Unless the Tu 142 can manage to spook the agosta out of its hiding very soon -he will have know option but to use his active sonar to serch out his elusive querry from the depths of ocean in the process advertisinghis presence allover the arabian sea to the akulas and the LA s and the sea wolves and whoever may be caring to listen .

- change course 310 -make revolutions for 18 knots
and the powerful sub responded to his command with ease
After 5 minutes of medium speed sprint over the ocean floor it was time to stop and listen
- set revolutions for 5 knots -set course 270
once agin the killer lady responded without protest and sonar dispaly stabilised with a different three dimensional accoustic map of the region.
He was looking for a narrow man made frequency band may be in audible to human ear but good enough for the sensitive arrayof hydrophones making up the towed array line trailing behind the sub to be dispalyed as a narrow line on the blue green dispaly
- a very weak transient sir - exclaimed the young sonar operator Sandy in the 360-380 Hz at 85 -90 miles -like some one have dropped a screw driver on a metal deck or may be some one resting a metal piece on a prop shaft cover -it is gone now sir

So the information about the sub was not a false alarm after all ,thought singha as he ordered another ste of course and speed change to clear the ambiguity

In 1906 Lewis nixon first invented the sonar type listening device (sound navigation and ranging)as a way of detecting icebergs During world war 1 the interst in sonar increased with the emerging need to detect submarines
Frenchman Paul langevin working with Chilowski invented the first sonar type device for submarine detection .The early sonar devices were passive listening devices . In 1916 Dr bOYLE INuK which subsequently passed to allied detection investigation commitee and produced the protype calLED ASDIC. By 1918 both britain and us has built active systems .the british tested the ASDIC on HMS Antrim in 1920 and serial production started in 1922.The us sonar QB appeared in 1931 .By outbreak of war RN had 5 sets for different ship classes and others for submarines. In world war 2 americans used the term sonar -sound mavigation and ranging .The british still kept on calling thiewr system ASDIC till in 1948 with formation of NATO standrdisation led to droppingthe term ASDIC .

Active sonar creates a pulse of sound often referd to as a ping in navy parlance and then uses sensitive hydrphones to listen to the reflection of that pulse from distance to measure the distance to an object. For measuring the bearing to the point of reflection several hydrophones are used and measures the relative time of arrival in each in a process called beam forming .In general long distance active sonars use lowerfrequencies .The lowest hav a bass BAH-WONG sound. Active sonar is also used to measure the distance to bottom by both ships and submarines and refered to as echo sounding .

Passive sonars are however almost exclussively used for undersea warfare and sonars used in salt water conditions rae quite different from thos used in more peaceful fresh water appilication like depth finding or locating fish schools. In saline condition sonar operation is significantly affected by temperature ,pressure and salinity of the water. as the speed of sound thru water is equal to 4388 +11.25 xtemperaturein deg f +0.0182 xdepthin ft +salinity in ppt. Ocean tempeature greatly varies with depth but between 30 and 100 mtrs there is often a marked change called the thermocline dividing the warmer surface water from the cold still water that makes up the bulk of the ocean mass. This can frustrate the sonar system since sound originating from one side of thermocline tend to get refracted off the thermocline . the thermocline however is not present in shallow coastal waters .Water pressure also affects the sound propagation by increasing the density of water and increasing the velocity of sound waves thru it. Increase in sound velocity causes the sound waves to refract away from the area of higher velocity and details in Snails law.

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Postby Sharma » 02 Sep 2005 17:24

Shankar you are preparing a good scenario but I think you are injecting more technical details and history stuff.
This is like Three 10 minute commercial breaks between a 35 minute TV serial. :P

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Postby JTull » 03 Sep 2005 00:23

Lately, there is too much focus on technical details of equipment. Guys research is one thing, but if you're copying stuff from somewhere then be aware of copyright issues. This stuff is meant to be published and so go easy on large technical essays which obviously have been copied from one or more sources.

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Postby Rakesh » 03 Sep 2005 10:59

Singha: however good human relations with Admiral Koshy enables this wayward officer to keep a operational job with a severe line of red marks in service records :rotfl:


You demoted me from Admiral to Seaman for unruly behaviour against a female BRFite. I still claim my innocence on that. You sent me to the brig and then later to peel potatoes. You then later promoted me back to Admiral after a few months. And you have the rank of Captain :lol:

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Postby Shankar » 03 Sep 2005 12:22

TU-142 MARINE DRAGON FLT 0417 HRS
--------------------------------------------
The bear came in low from the east and leveled off at 2500 ft almost vertically over the spot where PNS Saad was raising her ESN antena for a position fix on MV Panchgani .

- mad man -mad man -smoke away
came the exited voice of MAD boom operator as he operated the small yeallow coloured lever that released a couple of smoke bouyas inthe slip stream almost exactly over the spot where the magnetic anamoly display have shown a sharp vertical spike indicating a disturbance in earths magnetic field as would be likely by presence of a large mass of ferrous material

The prop sound changed to a deep throated roar as Sujit pushed the collective throttle all the way forward and took the Tu 142 on a sharp climbing bank to line up for a torpedo run ,made a 180 degree turn and came in low over the horizon ,pulled back on the throttle to cut speed to 350 knots as his first officer opened the weapons bay and exposed the aerial torpedoes on rotary launcher
- 5 6 7 4 3 2 1 mark and the two torpedoes dropped smoothly into the ocean below already set to an initial search depth of 50 and 100 mtrs anticipating the evasive move of the hostile submarine once it knows it is under attack .

PNS SAAD -0420 HRS
-----------------------
- Aircraft overhead the exicited shout from ESM console operator sent a cold chill thru Capt Khusharafs spine - multi engine turbo prop -on direc interception vector
Khusharaf knew what it iwas , a damned Indian naval Bear which has already made a location fix by magnetic anamoly and that is why no sonar warning and now comming in for a point blank torpedo attack .He started givin evasive commands on reflex but some where in the back of his mind he knew the answer .The Tu 142 carries an almost inexhusible supply of torpedoes and depth charges in its caravenous weapons bay ,even if he can evade one or two the others will surely follow till his and his crews death warrant have been signed -sealed and delivered .

- make depth 150 mtrs -set revolutions for max speed -make diving plane 20 degree
- torpedo in water -repeat two torpedoes in water in search mode
came the voice of sonar duty officer
- deploy noise makers - come to new course 090

INS CHOLA- 0422 HRS 75 MILES FROM ENGAGEMENT ZONE
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-Torpedo in water came in the warning from sonar operator - range 76 miles depth 50 mtrs -in search mode not yet started active ranging -looks like one of ours -light aerial type
Capt Singha was not alarmed he was still safe distance away from the Agosta being attacked but knew there exists a possibility the pakistani sub trying to escape may come straight at him . Now that the Tu 142 doing the engagement he was not very keen to engage himself since that would irrevocably compromise his position to all other ships and subs in the area .Still basic precautions have to be taken
- load tubes 1 2 and 3 - do not flood tube atleast not yet -steer course 130 -set revolutions for 10 knots ,putting his sub at an off set from the hunted agosta .
It took quite a few minutes to load up the massive 635 mm torpedoes and only then the the all possible escape routes for PNS Saad closed for ever

PNS SAAD - 0420 hrs
------------------------
- torpedo 1 aiming for noise maker expected to contact in 3 minutes
-torpedo 2 have just gone active -range 3000 mtrs
Capt Khusharaf was icy cool in this moment of crisis after all this is the kind of situatin for which he been trained

- deploy 2 more noise maker -change course 045 -make depth 200 mtrs
and the sleek french made sub quitely took on the new course and depth settings only the heel of the deck indicated the change in course and depth

TU-142 MARINE DRAGON FLT -0425 HRS
-----------------------------------------------
- Looks like sir they have managed to evade the torps came in the unruffled voice of sonar operator listening on non directional sonoboya signal dropped immediately after the torpedoes
Capt Sujit did not hesitate -quickly increased power once again and made the second low level pass over the target zone this time droping two 100 kg depth charges set to explode at 100 and 150 mtrs.Climbed up again and got ready for another torpedo run

PNS SAAD - 0427 HRS
---------------------------
the explossion of the exploding depth charges close to the pressure hull was horrific . All the light went out instantly and then the emergency power came on . Smell of methanol vapour was strong in the air and yet the pressure hull held on but no one was sure for how long

- change depth to 75 mtrs -make course 180
This time the agosta responded but some what slowly ,the near twin explossions have damaged her sails and course and depth changes was a laborious affair -still she tried ,tried hard to save the lives of the guys she has come to love

TU 142 DRAGON FLT -0430 HRS
--------------------------------------
- She is comming up sir ,came in the excited voice of (for the first time noted Sujit) we have a positive location and depth fix on her now
- roger that xo -let finish this business -drop two more torps as we come around for another pass

A bear normally will not attack humans whether in alaska or in kola penisula but once enraged it will make sure the object of his rage a very slow and painful death ,tearing apart limb by limb ,gouging out the eyes and ears ripping aprt the chest with sharp claws and the process goes on and on till he is sure the object of his rage is no longer a threat (usally long after its death )

PNS SAAD - 0433 HRS
--------------------------
-two more torp in water -both gone active -time to contact 3 minutes ]
Capt Musharaf knew his game was up stillhe tried
- deploy noise makers -change course 210- make depth 180 mtrs -make planes for 25 degree
Even as ih issue the command he could sense the impending doom ,when he looked at his fellow officers their was tear in his eyes and silently said thank you as the first torpedo hit the screw and blew it off its mount and hundreds of tons of sea water started gushing in .The sub took a down ward list and all power went off -the second torpedo hit amid ships ripping open the pressure hull and opening up the ship to sea . The sea claimed her niether quitely nor silently the bone crunching noise of its pressure hull being crushed by enormous pressue of sea could be heard by all those who cared to listen and they all took off their caps and saluted those brave officers and men of pakistani navy -who were just following orders .

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Postby Singha » 03 Sep 2005 13:19

> You then later promoted me back to Admiral after a few months. And you
> have the rank of Captain

bah details details! as the C-in-C eastern fleet you have total control over huge assets and a corner office with a dramatic view of Vizag harbour.

secondly, did gandhiji hold a formal rank in the hierarchy ? :twisted:

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Postby Dileep » 03 Sep 2005 21:15

Shankarji, this one was not your best.

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Postby Pennathur » 03 Sep 2005 21:18

Shankar,

Wouldn't Bears be flown by a Commander and a Lt. Commander not a Wing Co and S/L?

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Postby Rakesh » 04 Sep 2005 05:22

I have created a new archive titled, Military Scenarios Archive. Going forward, we can archive these threads in a single forum which will be easier to access. The archive can be accessed from the BR Forum Index page. Scroll to the bottom and you will see the archive listed there.

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Postby Shankar » 04 Sep 2005 16:48

NEWS REPORTS THE DAY AFTER
---------------------------------------
THE DAWN
Quoting naval sources reported loss of an Agosta 90 B class of submarine in north Arabian sea while on routing deployment due to mal function of air independent propulsion system .It may be re called a similar acciedent some time back in Bay of bengal caused the loss of another submarine Khalid under more or less similar circumstances . Pakistani Govt is seriously taking up the matter with DCN France and stopped operating the last of the Khalid class in karachi harbour till the technical investigation is complete

CNN
In a world wide live interview from the decks of USS Abraham Linchon against a graphic back ground of Hornets taking off the Blonde haired USN spokesperson appealed to both conflicting navies to keep the gulf a zone of peace as any further disruption in the crucial shiping lane will be considered a hostile act against the international community .

INDIAN EXPRESS

Unconfirmed reports indiacte PNS Saad an agosta 90B class submarine was sunk by indian navies long range maritime strike aircraft early yesterday morning as it was considered a thraet to our sea lanes of communication in the gulf region. Unconfirmed reports also suggest involvement of yet unconfirmed indian multi purpose nuclear submarine in the conflict however naval sources have refused to confirm or deny the incident

ITAR TASS

In a landmark long range maritime strike operation indian naval aviators sucessfully attacked and destroyed a french made state of the art Agosta submarine in Gulf of oman region . The air craft used was an upgraded Tupolov 142 F of Indian navy . According to military sources the engagement took place in the early hours of yesterday morning

INS HANSA - GOA
----------------------
The blue and white IAF b-737 landed smoothly and quickly taxied to the technical bay away from the civilian terminal . It was carrying a very very important personnel on board -the navy chief escorting the soft spoken prime minister of india . They joined the crew of Bear squadron for a sumptious naval lunch complete with roast chicken and russian salad .The PM took keen interest in the happening and showed a remarkable grasping power on things technical . Before leaving in a short and brisk ceremony pinned the medals on proud chests of all the crew of Marine Dragon flight for a job well done . Sujit chatterjee could now look forward to his own naval air group command hopefully within a year .

INS CHOLA
---------------
She sailed unknown -the dark depths of ocean -the responsibility of nations survival on her shoulder - ther was no public acknowledgement for Captain Singha ,for whom the privilage to command the navys best was all that mattered .

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Postby Surya » 04 Sep 2005 17:16

:D

Shankar has decided to not hear any comments and proceed with "mission" as planned

on a serious note a lot of the posts are Tom Clacyish and are making the same mistakes which we used to criticizeClancy for

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Postby JCage » 04 Sep 2005 17:23

true

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Postby Shankar » 04 Sep 2005 18:46

ok i agree the scenarios are tom clancyish may be because i read them all the time but also may be the most interesting way of presenting a military situation

How can you copy right knowledge whether it is historyof sonar development or oman s relation with rest of the world in the last century or why liquified natural gas which is becomming the most important fuel in this century linking us once agin to the sultanate

The idea of this episode came from the internet -reading a us govt warning to coast guard toescort all lng tankers -we should also have same level of protection tleast near major naval bases.

Detiled discussion on evolution of bears was ofcourse to focus attention to that almost forgotten arm of naval aviation which is rarely seen and less known the limelight being alwys grabbed by sukhois and mirages . But the collection of data from internet is like going to alibrary and reading a book why are we so paranoid about it .Your eyes cannot see what the mind does not know may be the balance between action and theory was bit lopsided but that was intentional to make it more informative for thos of us who are really not in the know

anyway i accept your criticism in the right spirit -why not point out my mistakes so that it doesnot recur in the next episode when Russian airlliner is forced to land in peshawr and indian help is sought for rescue of its passengers in a joint indo-russian effort

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Tom Clany-Whatever

Postby Andy » 05 Sep 2005 01:28

Hey Shankar
Dude i have been following all your scenarios right from the very start as a matter of fact i have had the pleasure of reading all of them and I have to say this you have been doing a marvellous job i mean dude you got some talent yes we all have some nitpicks and well you are no exception but overall your scenarios are good as mate Please carry on your whole scenario scuplture and just take whaterver comments of lets say complaints everyone has possitively. I hope i will be reading more and more of your amazing scenarios and i know that you will be continuosly improvising on them how about a scenario about a high altitude battle in siachen or a massive dogfight over the himalayas with some chinese intrusions also it would be very interesting if you could develop a scenario about the whole southeast asia area like some limited action between the forces of INDIA and china or the all the south east asian regional countries such as singapore malaysia indonesia etc. oh and it would be interesting how uncle sam would respond to such a crisis with a mention of australia as well anyways carry on the good work.

:wink: :wink: :wink:
Cheers

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Postby Kalki » 05 Sep 2005 01:47

Shankar, Just my 2 cents.

I think there was nothing wrong with the LNG carrier scenario or the way you presented it. On one hand, some might not like the technical data about the bears as it's repetative for them. OTOH, that information is necessary to reach a wider audience. So, what I'm saying is its always a compromise, something gotta give.

One more thing, IMO the LNG scenario may have been disliked because of the expectations after the Bombay High attack scenario.

Anyway, you have been doing some awesome work. And I really like reading your scenarios.

keep it up!

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Postby SandeepA » 05 Sep 2005 01:58

Ok no complaints from me if you name the leader of the Indian Commando force Sandeep the hero who saves the Russian airliner from Paki Jehadis and sweeps the lovely Russian air-hostess Natalia Sharapova off her feet:D 8)
That will make it less Clancyish and more Bollywoodish! :twisted:

Anyway keep them coming, cant wait for your next one.

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Postby p_saggu » 05 Sep 2005 12:18

Just wondering guys,

We have been dropping fuel air explosives on sargodha, nearly wiped off pakistan’s F 16 fleet, taken out most of their maritime patrol fleet… :twisted:

How long before their leaders / media wallahs start shouting about the subcontinent becoming a nuclear wasteland? When do Unkil / Chinese / Japanese start to play their parts? No security council resolutions yet, no seventh fleet sighted yet? What’s going on??? :lol:

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Postby JCage » 05 Sep 2005 12:33

Shankar,nice work but some stuff doesnt make sense...why would anyone put a SSN at risk to hunt a sub, especially when its the only 1 u have and needs to be part of the triad?
Also, why would anyone detail the op at flight time, u plan these things for hrs beforehand.
Actual asw work would be the forte of ships plus a/c.
also when theres full blown war would the pm expose himself, go visit bases have lunch and all? very tclancy.
also, whats all that about brave sailors of pn and the like and all that emotion jazz..both sides have pro soldiers they do their job and carry on...koi itna sab emotiongiri nahin dikhata hain.
plus while u get into tech details even so look at the other side, eg in the airliner thing..with a ka-31 emitting, the p3s -3 o' them have enough elint to know somethings cooking.
and the names...musharraf, kusharraf? Why? They dont add up. Plus nice to acknowledge each other but using BR members names back n forth makes for humorious reading..takes away the seriousness..

jmho.

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Postby JCage » 05 Sep 2005 12:35

to add-some of the stuff u have come up with the airliner idea, the moab to suppress manpads...all that is brilliant.

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Postby Surya » 05 Sep 2005 12:43

Hi Shankar and others

Most of the writers here are TomClancyish because that is the one they read the most.

My suggestion:

Take a break:

1. Get the following 2 books Night of the Krait and Sniper by Shashi Warrier.
2. Get afeel for Indian Writing in Indian conditions

You need to zoom in.

eg. if writing on Army movements - the American way moving some division number from x to y is silly.

You know how Indian roads are - imagine yourself getting one battalion out of that -

Remember RT is min.

During Kargil young IAF pilots flew 6 and 8 ship missions in TOTAL Radio silence.

Surya

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Postby Sharma » 05 Sep 2005 14:27

I am non actively attached to BR for last 2 years ( reading only) and saw Tom Clancy beaten blue and black every day.
Now I think time has come to empathize with him.

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Postby Sunil » 05 Sep 2005 20:55

Spearhead posts have been revised by the author and the entire scenario is now available to readers on page 3 of the thread.

Thank you all for your patience.

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Postby JCage » 05 Sep 2005 21:03

Amazing work by p saggu!


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