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Posted: 04 Apr 2007 18:25
by Hari Sud


Vivek's and prior to that your own were stories / dramas were presented in parts. The reader always waited for the next lot. It is fun, waiting for next, what?

When an additional view point in thrown in and if it is a distraction then it does not help. Also the writer reads it, if these are not encouraging to him, it disappoints him. Hence, I personally discourage discussion, if it does not throw additional light.

You are doing good by adding a bit of information here and there. But not too much.

Thank you

Hari Sud

Posted: 05 Apr 2007 00:36
by vivek_ahuja
the root of sino -indian conflict lies in history of Tibet -so thougth when Vivek is doing a conflict scenario the back ground history will make it more full bodied thats all .There are many here who were not even born in 62 so the disaster is not concieved in real terms and easier to link it to the root cause.

I couldn't agree more!!

from the point of view of a scenario writer, it becomes difficult to include the many details behind what is being portrayed, and it then becomes an assumption on the writer's part that the reader is somewhat knowledgable about the context if not an expert.
surely the writer cannot include all details in a single post either, as the post becomes long and like a history session for the reader who may not be interested in that many details.

so, if this thread can have additonal posts from people pertaining to the scenario, albeit somewhat smaller, it only make the experience more complete.
the discussions are a different story, and can cause a discontinuity and a loss of focus in the thread in my opinion.

You are doing good by adding a bit of information here and there. But not too much.

i like the "FLASHBACK TO HISTORY" type small inclusions in between my posts. perhaps you could do some on the relevant infrastruture of the region? maybe a paragraph or two on your conclusions and data rather than some existing articles? that will reduce bulk and make it concise.

thanks for your assistance. :)

Posted: 05 Apr 2007 00:38
by vivek_ahuja

The first man made thunderclaps reverberated around the valley as the cluster munitions hit the ground. The target was the main crossroads along the main highway where all the other smaller branches headed off into the region to the north and south of the highway. At the foothills of the Kailas peaks, the town was in all senses beautiful, and it was a sad aspect of current circumstances that it should fall at the centre of the conflict between India and china.

The objective was to neutralize flow of traffic along the highway by bombing the main junction with cluster munitions that would destroy all soft skinned vehicles like trucks and other assorted lightly armoured vehicles. Further north, just at the foot of the Kailas peaks, the secondary objective was the destruction of the radar site that was coordinating the SAM systems in this region. It was also the most capable radar along this stretch of the highway and its destruction would create a big hole in the local air defences until the PLAAF AWACS reached the area and took over control. Finally, there was a medium sized bridge inside the town over which the highway crossed. The Jaguars armed with ‘Dumb’ bombs were tasked with the destruction of this bridge.

The city was heavily defended by MANPADs, and the only security for the Jaguars was the surprise element that PIVOT-CALLER had arranged for them. The communications scramble had meant that the MANPAD troopers on the roofs of high rise buildings in the town were not alerted but were still quick to see the Jaguars flying over the city and so they started their launch procedures, all of which took time as the Jaguars separated into two pairs and one pair headed for the crossroads and the other headed for the bridge. The flight time had been seconds only.
The first cluster munitions devastated the highway crossroad, and left several dozen vehicles on fire, with huge flames leaping across the sky. The two jaguars for that strike headed north and cleared the city limits even as two trails of white smoke followed them all the way. The massive number of flares launched by the two aircraft coupled with the chaff and their evasive manoeuvres at high speed negated the missile threat against them and they disappeared within the hills north of Khaleb.

The second pair of Jaguars had a more difficult task at hand. They had to come from a certain angle in order to launch their weapons against the bridge if they wanted to completely destroy it. That made their flight path predictable and gave the MANPAD operators that little bit of time to get ready for launch. As the two aircraft spotted the bridge and adjusted their vectors to get in line for the attack, several white trails leaped across the sky from near the bridge towards them. There was no turning back now. The aircraft were dropping flares in quick succession and the pilots had the satisfaction of seeing two of the seven trails turn slightly towards the flares and go off course, but the remaining missiles did not veer off course and headed towards the lead aircraft who now broke formation and went into a step climb to gain altitude and some space to manoeuvre. The missiles followed the aircraft up. It was a mistake. The aircraft was now up against the totally clear and cold blue sky, and it was the only one heat source in the sky. The aircraft started heading towards the general bearing of the sun so that he could draw the missiles in that direction and then break away, leaving the missiles trailing after the sun.

The problem was that even if the Jaguar managed to break off the missile lock against him, he was now flying high in the sky over Khelab, and several dozen more MANPAD teams were busy trying to lock him in their sights. They were now waiting for the aircraft to clear the general direction of the sun before they fired their missiles. At this altitude the aircraft cannot perform beyond a certain height, and the thin air degrades engine performance, forcing the aircraft to lose energy and then fall back towards the earth. The Jaguar could not fly at high angles for too long, and sure enough, when he broke away, fully two dozen missiles rose up to meet the lone Jaguar. The Tarang RWR was screeching and warning of radar directed missiles among the dozen or so missiles heading towards the Jaguar, and there was no escape. The aircraft was blotted out of the sky with multiple missiles slamming from all directions, and the massive explosion had the aircraft smithereens falling from the sky all over the town. The only major section of the fuselage that came down in one piece was the port wing section that fell near the highway crossroad where the trucks were still burning furiously.

The second Jaguar had meanwhile reached the bridge and had used the distraction of the MANPAD operators to lie up his approach properly and drop his two ‘Dumb’ bombs smack in the centre of the bridge which blew up in a massive explosion behind the Jaguar and which caused the steel and concrete flying in all directions and showering the town with a massive spray of water all around the impact point. This caused the Chinese soldiers to stop their cheering at the destruction of one aircraft and try and lock on to the other aircraft, but it was too late and the Jaguar sped away on full afterburner.

Then heads turned again in another direction as another set of thunderclaps far from the town echoed the destruction of the radar station based at the foothills of the Kailas peaks by the first pair of Jaguars who had now emerged from the hills to the north to strike the final target. Then they too again entered the peaks before anybody could react and the skies became clear with all abruptness, except for the noise echoing across the region.

The three Jaguars assembled and headed back towards India following their predetermined paths over Men-shih and beyond. There were no celebrations. The IAF had just lost one of its aircraft and crew in combat operations against the Chinese. The mission had been a difficult one, and it had been accomplished, but that didn’t make that Jaguar crew any less dead. PIVOT-HEEL had just ended. The success was almost total, but that wasn’t totally unexpected either. The city was just too well guarded, the IAF commanders realized belatedly, and despite the fact that all known threats had been jammed beforehand, there were just to many MANPAD teams around using IR seekers to make the concept of Lo-Lo-Lo strike patterns obsolete, and deadly to the crews executing them. The commanders realized that they had made their first mistake in the war, and it had cost them the lives of two officers and an aircraft.

The town horizon had a number of smoke and dust clouds. The thick black clouds of smoke bellowing from the trucks filled with ammunition that had cooked off at the main crossroad was filling the sky, and as bulldozers were called to clear the roads, several of them were disabled by the unexploded sub-munitions creating further nuisance, causing the PLA officers to swear at a non-existent god. The first set of troops also managed to reach the destroyed and burning radar site that had been fighting the ARC B-707 not long ago. Not any more. With the only competition gone, the ARC crew had no intention of going back. All military communications and radars were now jammed with impunity.

At the bridge another set of officers was swearing at the mass of tangled steel and concrete that now lay before them. All communications were still being jammed, and so there was a massive delay before any news went out by other means. As a result, the traffic continued to move towards the town from Lhasa and was held up as the PLA officers organized a diversion via the southern route, only to find that the massive traffic jam had started. The diversion was not nearly good enough for mass convoys.

The number of supply vehicles piling up at the town was now massive, and the town of Khaleb now becoming a highly vulnerable, target rich environment…

Posted: 05 Apr 2007 04:28
by Sudhanshu
Thanks Shankar for the additional information. That really helps. I wonder, why don't they teach all these things in schools.

BTW, Shankar, are we halting attacks on Pakistan for time being? :)

P.S: ***edited***

Posted: 05 Apr 2007 21:32
by Shankar
After occupation of Tibet and establishing political dominance ,the first priority of peoples republic in Tibet was to establish a modern road infrastructure ,essentially to ensure ease of connectivity to mainland china and generate to capability to deploy significant forces in the difficult to access border regions with India

On December 25th, 1954, the Sichuan-Tibet, Qinghai-Tibet highways were completed. The total mileage is 4360 kilometers.

In 2004, it is the 50th anniversary of the completion of these two highways. Sichuan-Tibet highway passes through Chengdu, Nujiang River Tand Hengduan Mountain; Qinghai-Tibet highway passes through Sining, Tongtian and Kunlun Mountain. The average altitude on both sides of these highways is above 4000 meters of the sea level.It was a marvelous feat of construction engineering and succeeded in establishing basic road connectivity of Tibet with rest of china.

Though touted as a cultural bridge between the Han nationality and tibetian population the basic object of the expensive roadways wa purely militaryfor theSichuan-Tibet, Qinghai-Tibet highways

Accorsding to open source information available.Since 1990s, the investment on Tibetan highway contraction amounted to 10 trillion yuan. At the end of 2003, the total mileage of Tibetan highways reached 41302 kilometers, with asphalt road of more than 3000 kilometers. 25 counties out of 73 counties have asphalt roads.

By 2010 , the total mileage of Tibet highway reached 48000 kilometers offering much more convenient transportation to PLA for a possible conflict with India

China also constructed 14 airbases/airstrips in Tibet by 2006 .The main objective was of course to bring major north and eastern indian cities and IAF bases under threat of a direct strike of PLAAF aircraft.The disadvantage was the altitude which restricted the max payload that can be taken on by the strike aircraft when taking off form these high altitude airstrips reducing thier rated payload including fuel by as much as 35%.To overcome this operating problem air to air refueler were inducted so that the strike aircraft can take off from plaians and refuel over Tibet before possible strike on the indian cities and air bases . The high mountain peaks also confered some distinct advantage for the PLAAF electronic warfare early warning equipment in some specific locations ,which would prove critical in the unfolding conflict

he battle of Rezang La, a ridge overlooking the strategic Chushul plains in Ladakh, is one of the most glorious chapters in the history of the Indian army and has been compared by some military historians with the famed battle of Thermopylae. In the unequal war of 1962 against the Chinese where the Indian army rarely stood to fight, the Ahir Charlie Company [i]from 13 Kumaon, led by Major Shaitan Singh, decided that until they were alive the Chinese weren’t going to have a look-in on Chushul, at 17,000 ft. Of the 120 defenders, only three survived, seriously wounded. The rest, including Major Shaitan Singh (who was awarded Param Vir Chakra), were discovered after the winter, frozen, mostly holding their weapons but with no ammunition. This was a genuine ‘last man-last round’ defense and many times more Chinese were killed, the evidence again being frozen bodies on the slopes. Of the 120 soldiers, 114 were Haryanavi Ahirs.

This battle inspired MS Sathyu’s (1964) gut-wrenching classic movie, 'Haqeeqat', starring Dharmendra and Balraj Sahni. On this horrific battle, Major-General Ian Cardozo, in his book ‘Param Vir, Our Heroes In Battle’ writes, “When Rezang La was later revisited dead jawans were found in the trenches still holding on to their weapons... every single man of this company was found dead in his trench with several bullet or splinter wounds. The 2-inch mortar man died with a bomb still in his hand. The medical orderly had a syringe and bandage in his hands when the Chinese bullet hit him... Of the thousand mortar bombs with the defenders all but seven had been fired and the rest were ready to be fired when the (mortar) section was overrun.â€

Posted: 05 Apr 2007 22:11
by vivek_ahuja

The ARC B-707 was still at station, and jamming all known communications and radars with impunity, now that the Chinese electronic opposition in this sector had ceased. There were a whole lot of radios trying to reach each other, and all of them could not and none knew why. It was a source of immense satisfaction to the ARC crew flying above the most beautiful peaks in the world and through air that had a temperature below freezing.

Communications system jamming was one aspect of the current job. Another was listening in to the same data for intelligence purposes. This was achieved by what is essentially localized jamming. The signal from a radio leaves the set and spreads radially outwards. Here it is allowed to go most of the way and then jammed. Essentially it means that the radio operator thinks he is sending the data out, and indeed the data is leaving his system, but it does not reach its destination. It was during this motion from the set to the point where it was jammed that the signal was normal and it was therefore here that it could be hacked into. Total jamming prevents this kind of eavesdropping and destroys the carrier waves before they can leave the set, thus giving away to the operators the knowledge that they are being jammed. This is what had been intentionally done during the Jaguar strike to confuse the enemy. As soon as the Jaguars had exited the range of the Chinese radars, this kind of jamming had been ceased, fooling the enemy into thinking that the ARC aircraft had left along with the Jaguars. But that was not the case. The B-707 was still there, and was now using localized jamming to achieve covert gathering of intelligence and continue to block Chinese communications without their knowing.

Of course this couldn’t last, and the gradual decrease in radio communications was suggesting that the Chinese had smartened up. It was probable that they were using fibre-optic communications now, and the problem was that the Indians had no idea where the main nodes for that network were. And unless they had SOCOM guys running around the Tibetan mountains destroying all such nodes, there would be little success in forcing the Chinese to resort back to radio communications. As a result, the amount of signals intelligence was now rapidly decreasing, and the successes of the intercepts were decreasing in magnitude. It was something that everybody aboard the aircraft now realized.

What they had learned from the frantic PLA communications was that the town of Khaleb had been hit hard. The highway was jammed, and the Chinese were yelling out to higher command to dispatch them more engineers and equipment to restore the transportation system, but their pleas were not going anywhere, much to the entertainment of the Indian crew, listening in on the Chinese frequencies, hopping or not. That was another difficult job, trying to listen on the Chinese communication frequencies. Doing this on a single carrier frequency is one thing, trying to do so on a carrier that is hopping within a range of frequencies is quite another. Ironically, jamming it is easier, as the entire range of frequencies can be flooded with garbage signals to scramble any data transfer. Listening in on it requires the listening equipment to follow the Chinese frequency as it ‘hopped’ along, and that was never easy. If you couldn’t do that, then all you would hear would be fragmented segments of data, and that was frustrating. One way was for the listening computer to first see the so called ‘Random’ nature of hopping and try to figure out the logic behind it, and then try and ‘hop’ in a similar way, thus producing the required data. It only needed to be done once, as it was expected that only one kind of logic would be present for all the Chinese radios.

This method had its roots in World War II, with the famous ‘Enigma’ coding logic broken by the British that cost the Germans, the war. Seventy years on, computer power had increased immeasurably, so that what had taken months to do now required only hours, and was something that the ARC had achieved some time back. Indeed, it was one of the most closely guarded secrets of that organization and something that was, at the moment, winning the war for the Indian Air Force. Unfortunately, this great coup would never be made public, now or after the war, and the medals awarded would never be publicly given. The congratulations would itself be secret, much to the amusement of any layman. But the ARC people understood. It was something that they accepted without second thought and it reflected favourably on their character as patriots.

Another radio message was intercepted and told the listeners that another convoy had made it to Khaleb to find itself jammed. The Chinese were re-routing their convoys now, moving them around Khaleb via the southern looping roads. That was causing problems as well, but the Chinese were adapting, and the traffic was starting to move again. That could not be allowed, and another mission was being lined up. This was for the town of Sung-sha, seventy kilometres west of Khaleb, and which was also another node in the traffic movement westwards from Lhasa. There was an even more lucrative target at Sung-sha: the bridge over a medium power river called Longpoche. The bridge that was destroyed at Khaleb was smaller, and could be repaired quickly. The one at this place could not. That was all part of the follow on missions after the not totally successful Operation PIVOT-HEEL, and would take into consideration the lessons learnt after the strike at Khaleb. It was being organized right now, and this operation was called PIVOT-HAMMER.

It would involve several flights of Jaguars, all of whom would be using PGMs, supported by eight Mirages. No more lo-lo-lo strike-patterns after the debacle over the skies of Khaleb. This one was all lo-hi-lo patterns that would take the attacking aircraft over the range of the MANPAD systems and would be heavily dependent on PIVOT-CALLER to provide jamming support. That was not a problem, the ARC crew reflected. They could handle it.

The problem was that the PLAAF was now fully warned, and passive EW systems were now beginning to detect several flights of Chinese fighters heading towards the region. Also, the PLAAF had taken its first active measure of the war. The AWACS flying over the NE was not recalled to this region, as the IAF had expected them to do, and instead the PLAAF had left the PLA to take care of itself against the Indian Jaguars jumping all over them, until further AWACS could fly down from the south, as DIA was now suggesting they were.

That was not a good development from the CAC commander’s point of view, although the Jaguar squadron commanders were not complaining. It allowed the IAF to conduct another set of strikes under a new Operation called PIVOT-HAMMER, but that was never the point. The CAC had to fool the PLAAF into diverting resources into the region so that the army in the NE could execute NORTH-SWIPE Phase-II and III. Now that plan was in jeopardy, and suggested that something nasty was heading for the EAC.

It was clear to everybody at IAF headquarters that the Chinese H-6 bombers were not on the ground anymore. They were all in the air as of forty minutes ago, and nobody had a clear idea as to their targets. It was highly probable that it would be in the EAC zone of operations, and they were preparing accordingly. But as long as the H-6s were not detected on somebody’s radar, every IAF commander was uneasy. The problem for the CAC was that the Phalcon AWACS attached to it, call sign ‘Victor-Three’, was still flying south of the Himalayan peaks and south of Himachal Pradesh, and could not go over them because that area was Chinese territory. Its view was restricted and as a result, so was the Early Warning capability for the Northern states. The only EW asset north of the peaks was PIVOT-CALLER, and it didn’t have airborne search radar with it. Instead it depended on Passive detection of inbound threats coming down from the North and therefore had its limitations.

Based on this method, the ARC crew had plotted a set of bearings representing inbound fighters, and the four Mirage-2000s of the previous Jaguar strike had been ordered to move North from ‘Jolly Grant’ and escort and protect PIVOT-CALLER. There was another bearing for a highly powerful radar haeding into the region from the North-east thatcould only be an airborne radar aircraft of some type, and although the ARC aircraft and its escorts were below the horizon for that aircraft, it was only a matter of time before the ARC B-707 would have to shut down operations and head south for safety. At the moment, however, operations continued as usual.

Then another communication was picked up, and one of the operators who detected it called out to the Mission Controller to come over and hear it for himself.

“What is that? Did he just talk to another bunch of crews?â€

Posted: 05 Apr 2007 23:30
by Shankar

In early January 2007 Internet images emerged of what appears to be a new version of China’s Xian H-6 medium bomber, a copy of the Russian Tupolev Tu-16 which first flew in April 1952. Its two salient features include larger engine air intakes, indicative of a larger or even new more powerful engine, and six wing-mounted pylons. These are initially carrying new cruise missiles, which very likely are new Chinese-designed Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACMs), but in the future may also carry new precision guided munitions (PGMs). These modifications both modernize and significantly increase the strike potential of the 1950s-era H-6, much as the U.S. has done for the Boeing B-52, a bomber of similar vintage. Despite an unimpressive service record, a recent production revival for the H-6 demonstrates a renewed People’s Liberation Army commitment to long-range strike aircraft for "Local War" and emerging "Power-Projection" missions—to possibly include space warfare
Should initial reports prove correct, new engines in the latest "H-6K" version offer the potential for creating a platform with a 3,000km strike radius, extended further by the carriage of 1,000 to 2,000km range land-attack cruise missiles. Should this estimate hold, then the PLA would have an airborne platform with which to credibly threaten the U.S. military buildup on Guam—soon to be a double threat considering that similar LACMs will be carried by the PLA Navy’s new Type 093 nuclear attack submarines. This gathering PLA potential for coordinated air and sea launched land attack cruise missile strikes should also concern Japan, India, Australia and Taiwan. Like the United States, they are all ill-equipped to defend against new PLA LACMs.

The emerging threat scenario was quickly turning serious -very very serious indeed

Posted: 06 Apr 2007 02:28
by Hari Sud
Thank you Shankar for information on Chusul.

Vivek continue - Good work.

Hari Sud

Posted: 06 Apr 2007 06:24
by samuel
To add...

H-6 History

...As the H-6 bomber is unable to penetrate the enemy air defence, the PLA developed a number of missile bomber variants of the H-6 to launch stand-off, precision-guided weapons outside the range of enemy air defence. The H-6D maritime bomber carrying two YJ-61 (C-601) anti-ship missiles under the wings was introduced in the early-1980s, followed by a more capable H-6M carrying four YJ-8 (C-801) anti-ship missiles in 2002. The PLAAF received the H-6H missile bomber carrying two KD-63 land-attack cruise missiles (LACM) in 2000. The latest H-6K capable of carrying six LACMs made the first flight in January 2007.

Air-Launched Weapons

So, 144 KD-63s coming our way?[/url]

Posted: 07 Apr 2007 22:02
by vivek_ahuja

The situation was desperate. There were enemy bombers bearing down on the National Capital and there was little defence against it. The major problem with cruise missiles is that once launched, they take a path that makes interception difficult till the last moment, as they can literally re-route their paths to go through the loopholes in any air defence system environment. Only during the last phases can they be intercepted by point defence systems because of their inability to manoeuvre during that time. Having said that, the only time they can be stopped effectively is before they are actually launched, and that’s another problem. As a result, most militaries around the world have redundant C3I capabilities so that such attacks can be absorbed without loss of capability. And the Indian armed forces had exactly that required redundancy based C3I capabilities.

But that was not the problem right now. The problem was a possible attack on civilian areas using large numbers of missiles, and that was different. The final targets were not sure, and they wouldn’t be until the missiles crossed the Himalayan peaks. Once that happened, they would still be at high attitude and would conduct a slight dive to go back to terrain following levels. During this ‘Pop-down’ manoeuvre, the missiles would be detected and tracked by the Phalcon AWACS, ‘Victor Three’ and would calculate and then relay the list of possible targets to the relevant Air Defence Ground Environment System or ADGES. Then it was up to that AD Zone to try and destroy the missiles before they hit their targets.

But this plan was full of loopholes and even if it worked, and the concerned AD Zone could detect and engage the missiles, already the questions were being raised at Air HQ as to whether any AD Zone could attack and destroy such a large number of missiles. An alternative plan was needed. And there were none. The Chinese were using their H-6 bombers as standoff cruise missile launchers in the ‘K’ variant of the aircraft, and they could theoretically launch within a few minutes, depending on what they were carrying. The thing was that the missiles had not been launched, and were still slung under the wings of the Chinese aircrafts. Problem was that the first SU-30MKIs to scramble from Bareilly would not reach the area in time.

That’s when the planners realised that PIVOT-CALLER had a total of four Mirage-2000s trying to catch up with it to provide escort, in the aftermath of Op PIVOT-HEEL, and a quick look at the digital map showed that they near the Lama Chorten and heading North-east to take positions around the ARC B-707. Another look at their weapons configuration showed that they were carrying four of the Radar guided Astra BVR-AAMs each, and that made a total of sixteen missiles against twenty-four Chinese bombers. And that didn’t include the inbuilt guns on the four aircraft. That changed the odds admirably, but there were other considerations.

The Chinese had taken the initiative with such a bold strike, and were in full knowledge that India lacked the capability to do a similar strike on Beijing or even one of their major cities simply because there were no such cities within practical limits of Indian aircraft. But they had lacked the full situational awareness picture before they had dispatched their bombers to this region to conduct their attack. The complete jamming and scrambling of the outgoing communications by PIVOT-CALLER had ensured for example, that by the time the PLAAF had received word from the PLA about Indian Jaguars attacking their convoys in Tibet, the bombers had already taken off. Even then, they could have withdrawn their bombers or provided massive escort aircrafts if they knew that more threat existed. All their intelligence suggested that only the four Jaguars had hit the town of Khaleb, and that they had been supported by an electronics jamming aircraft, all of whom must be withdrawing south after attacking. They had no idea that although the four Jaguars had indeed withdrawn, PIVOT-CALLER had not, and it was still there and doing its job. The Chinese radars, the ones that had not been destroyed by the Jaguars were still jammed, and that alone should have warned the PLAAF that something was not right and that the threat was still there, but the effective jamming of communications had delayed their decisions to the point that by the time escort fighters had been launched along with AWACS support, the bombers were way to the south of them and very close to the border, and the IAF threat.

The ARC aircraft was detecting the inbound SU-27s and the Chinese AWACS aircrafts coming south, but were also detecting the Chinese bombers already within their line of sight. The Four Mirage-2000 escorts now had a window of opportunity to exploit the distance gap between the Chinese bombers and their escort fighters. The Chinese H-6 aircraft crew themselves had no idea of the threat that now lay within their electronic LOS as a result of the austere airborne threat detection equipment mounted on their aircrafts. The H-6K was a missile carrying variant and not a high-technology penetration variant, and the equipment reflected that capability perception.

Hurried calls were made to the Phalcon AWACS and from there to the flight leader of the Mirage fighters and also to the mission commander of the ARC B-707. The fighters were instructed to abandon their current jobs of fighter escort and conduct a high-speed run towards the Chinese bombers and get within range of their BVR missiles. Once that was done, they were instructed to launch and destroy as many of the bombers as they could. Then they were to close in and use their front guns to engage the remaining aircraft even of they had already launched their cruise missiles. Even if a few missiles hit New Delhi, the main objective as far as the Mirage pilots were concerned was the elimination of the Chinese H-6K threat. No bombers were to return home to speak of their success. No mercy was to be shown.

The overall mission control was in the hands of the ARC crew because the Phalcon had no time to cross the border and assist. The B-707 was also to provide stand off electronic support to the Mirag-2000s. Once the Chinese SU-27s got close, the Mirages were to break off and return south using the massive electronic jamming support from the B-707 to blank out the Chinese radar directed missile systems.

Within seconds of receiving the orders from the Phalcon, the four Mirage-2000s were in line abreast formation and then towards the bearing data provided by the ARC crew who were using their ELINT equipment to obtain reasonably good data for the Fighters. Once they got close, the fighters would light off their own radars to find and destroy their targets.

Against the blue sky above and the brown and white peaks below, the four Mirage-2000s punched off their drop tanks and engaged engine reheat to dash towards an unsuspecting enemy that was a few kilometres out of their ranges. The missiles were selected, the radar was on standby, and the pilot’s finger were resting on the missile launch button…


Further south, inside India, preparations for the inbound strike was going forward at impossible speed. While people in New Delhi were scrambling to evacuate the National Leaders and advisors along with all high ranking military leaders and getting them aboard their command post aircrafts lined up by the IAF at Palam airport, the IAF was busy organising the Air Defence of the National Capital.

North of Delhi, in a large open plain ground, the quad launchers of several S-300V systems elevated from the horizontal positions on top of their TELs reached their vertical locations and it was an awe inspiring sight to one and all. Once that had been done, however, there was little activity to be done outside, and except for the security detachment protecting the extremely secret location from curious strangers, everybody was inside the man control trailer, watching the data coming in from the Phalcon AWACS flying north of their current location. It would be the first to spot the missiles, and then it would begin.

At the moment, however, things were erringly quiet as all eyes turned towards the northern Himalayan foothills.

Posted: 07 Apr 2007 22:09
by Shankar
FLASH BACK TO HISTORY -2 [[b]/b]-1950-62

It is difficult to stay objective when doing a research on sino -indian conflict of 62 and so best way to understand the root causes and its implications is perhaps to study various publications on the subject and then try find out where we went so horribly wrong. In formulating our policy towards china,allowing total clouding of military judgement by idealistic political overtones,corruption and psychopancy at all levels, ostrich view of geo -military realities,irrational fear about possible escalation of thew ar if air power is used,rampant corruption in public works department responsible for constructing and maintaining border roads and bridges and above all the the only saving grace -the incomparable courage of indian armed forces men and junior level officers when facing impossible odds at worlds highest battle ground without warm clothes,outdated second world war weapons and shortage of ammunition all put together to make them loose and give up -but still they did not do what was expected -they fought and died on the icy barren heights creating stories and giving birth to legends of which the modern indian army will have its foundation on.

Code: Select all

Every war can be traced back to its roots deep in the annals of history; wars do not come up out of the blue, rather they are the result of a sequence of slow, grinding steps that inevitably lead to the conclusion as battle. The Sino-Indian conflict of 1962 is no exception: its roots can be traced back to the Chinese annexation of Tibet wherein the first seeds of war were sown. On July 8, 1949, following the defeat of Chiang Kai Shek’s Nationalist Government in the Chinese civil war, the Tibetan Government asked the Chinese mission to "vacate", calling upon its rights as an independant country to request the expultion of diplomats. Tibetan records show that they had planned this expulsion of the Chinese agents for more than a year. China invited Tibetans early in the 1950s to "accede peacefully" and backed up this emphatic plea by stationing an army near the city of Chamdo in East Tibet. An anxious Tibetan delegation hurriedly agreed to go to Peking to talk to the PRC themselves in an effort to defuse the sudden tension. On October 7, 1950, the day the Tibetan delegation was scheduled to arrive, 80,000 soldiers of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China attacked Tibet and announced its 'peaceful liberation'. The Dalai Lama was forced to sign, under duress, the " 17-Point Agreement of May 23, 1951", surrendering to the Chinese attack. Imposed on the Tibetan government, the "Agreement", the PRC claims, shows that Tibetans not only agreed to, but actually invited Chinese Communist troops to "liberate" Tibet. andit Jaharwalal Nehru, the Prime Minister of the newly independent India, following his foreign policy of trying to establish its mutual, nonaligned relations on the international scene, held the view that India could ill afford a confrontation over Tibet at a nascent point in India's history, and especially so during the ongoing Korean War. On November 18, 1950, Jawaharlal Nehru wrote to the Home Minister, Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, saying, "We cannot save Tibet, as we should have liked to do, and our very attempt to save it might well bring greater trouble to it. It would be unfair to Tibet for us to bring this trouble upon her without having the capacity to help her effectively. It may be possible, however, that we might be able to help Tibet to retain a large measure of her autonomy." Nehru's two closest advisors at the time were the socialist-leaning Krishna Menon and India's then Ambassador to China during the Communist Revolution, K. M. Panikkar. They were largely responsible for Nehru's decision to recognize Chinese sovereignty over Tibet. Sardar Patel, however, wanted a strong line to be adopted against the Chinese aggression. He wrote to Nehru that "even though we regard ourselves as friends of China, the Chinese do not regard us as friends." India moreover had international support to this matter, with world opinion strongly against Chinese aggression in Tibet. The world, in fact, was looking to India to take the lead. t would be instructive to examine the Chinese claims on Tibet in brief at this juncture, since the dispute over the "McMahon Line" that demarcated the border between India and China owes its origins to these claims. The ostensible reason given by China when the PLA entered Tibet was to "liberate three million Tibetans from imperialist aggression, to complete the unification of the whole of China, and to safeguard the frontier regions of the country". Cutting through the propaganda reveals the underlying truth in this statement - the safeguarding of China by proactive engagement; in the 'engagee' in this case being the Kingdom of Tibet. It is generally surmised that the reason behind China's invasion was to gain control of the highly strategic crossroads of Tibet that lead to the heart of Western, Central, South and South East Asia, and can be used as a springboard for engaging the same. t would be instructive to examine the Chinese claims on Tibet in brief at this juncture, since the dispute over the "McMahon Line" that demarcated the border between India and China owes its origins to these claims. The ostensible reason given by China when the PLA entered Tibet was to "liberate three million Tibetans from imperialist aggression, to complete the unification of the whole of China, and to safeguard the frontier regions of the country". Cutting through the propaganda reveals the underlying truth in this statement - the safeguarding of China by proactive engagement; in the 'engagee' in this case being the Kingdom of Tibet. It is generally surmised that the reason behind China's invasion was to gain control of the highly strategic crossroads of Tibet that lead to the heart of Western, Central, South and South East Asia, and can be used as a springboard for engaging the same. To this date, the Chinese claim to the Indian areas is based upon the non-recognition of the McMahon Line, regardless of the recognition of Tibetan autonomy and Tibet's acceptance of the McMahon Line, which is is based on their illegal claim to Tibet. Seizing the opportunity to expand in the late 50s, they played upon quirky logic that would've been legally binding had Tibet been legally been part of China:
The first, (again, assuming Tibet is legally Chinese) is that the Tibetans, as a province of China, could not legally be signatories to the Simla Convention. Though the understood agreement that a Tibetan delegate was present, and the fact that Chou Enlai himself assured Nehru of Tibetan autonomy when the Chinese Prime Minister visited India in 1954. Also, the Chinese were never actual signatories to the Simla Convention, which was agreed to between the Tibetans and the British. Because a unilateral (solely British, since the Tibetan signature is not legally binding) agreement on a border demarcation is not valid, the whole McMahon line demarcation, which India inherited, comes into question.
On 29 April 1954, India and China signed an agreement. Under the Sino-Indian Agreement of 1954, otherwise known as the Panchsheel, or the "Five Principles" agreement, India gave up all extra-territorial rights and privileges it enjoyed in Tibet, which it inherited from the British colonial legacy, and formally recognized Tibet to be a region of China. The namesake five points agreed were:
1. Mutual respect for each other's territorial integrity and sovereignty
2. Mutual non-aggression
3. Mutual non-interference in each other's internal affairs
4. Equal and mutual benefit working relationship
5. Peaceful co-existence
The Indian military in general was reserved in its acclamations, and wished resistance of such a treaty, but was overruled by Menon who insisted that Pakistan was the only real enemy. Little attention was paid to the lurking dangers. India and Pakistan had gone to war over Kashmir's accession to India in 1948. Pakistan saw the advantage over India's nonalignment by taking a strong anti-Soviet line, winning the hearts of the West, and the US and the UK in particular. At this time, the Soviet Union had not yet come out very forcefully on India's side. China looked upon the Kashmir question differently. They had indicated, though, that they did not wish to take sides. They also had their claims on territory on the Ladakh district of Jammu and Kashmir. It was wishful thinking on the part of India's leaders to imagine that China would remain indifferent or neutral on this matter. Again, if only the sound appeals of caution by the army were heeded, ignominy would be spared. During this time, the military was neglected in areas such as the modernization and upgrading of forces. The Kulwant Singh report of 1952 severely castigated the government for neglect and recommended the raising of several divisions of troops and purchase of new equipment. However, apart from raising the Indo-Tibetan Border Force, the other recommendations were shelved, as China was considered a friendly by the government. Thus, the Army was specifically told to concentrate on India's traditional adversary, Pakistan, rather than China, as war with China was viewed as "extremely unlikely." The Chinese, wishing to consolidate their gains in Tibet and the surrounding areas, implemented a plan for developing the infrastructure in those regions. A ring road was constructed which led from China to Tibet and from there via the Karakorum Range to Sinkiang and Mongolia and then back to China. The Indian Ladakh district of Askai Chin region of Jammu and Kashmir state obstructed the construction of this road, and would have forced the Chinese to build through the harsh Takla Makan desert - not the most favorable terrain. Faced with this, the Chinese Government had the choice of building a shortcut through Indian territory inaccessible to India, or build the road in a wasteland of the Takla Makan. In October 1958, the road was discovered, Tensions increased further at India's welcoming of the Dalai Lama, who, in March 1959, when the Dalai Lama with 20,000 followers crossed into India where he was received with great pomp and warmth. Mao felt he had lost face at this, and felt that China "needed a victory in some sphere." The Chinese claim of NEFA was thus voiced in the aftermath of the 1959 Tibetan revolt. n 1959, in a meeting between Nehru and China's foreign minister, Chou En-Lai, both countries agreed not to send patrols within two miles of the McMahon Line in NEFA. However, On August 7, 1959, about 200 Chinese troops intruded into the Indian border at Khenzemane in the Kameng frontier division at east of Thagla Ridge. When challenged by the Indian patrol and asked to withdraw, they pushed the Indian party consisting of 10 men to the bridge at Drokung Samba. China considered the sector as within Chinese territory, and stated that the international border ran through the Drokung Samba bridge.
On 25th August 1959, around 300 Chinese troops crossed into the Longju region of the Subashin Frontier division and opened fire at the Indian post there. The post was completely surrounded and was captured, but the Indian garrison was later released. In both cases the Chinese heavily outnumbered the Indians. The Indian posts were isolated and solely dependent on air supply. They were typically manned by 12-15 men and with no chances of reinforcements, since there were no access roads leading to it. This was a good reminder of things to come, unfortunately all that transpired were a few protest notes from the Ministry of External Affairs


Posted: 08 Apr 2007 11:52
by Shankar
Indian anti missile shield was quietly put in place as media and world attention was carefully diverted by the multi billion dollar MRCA deal . About the same time a comprehensive multi tier missile shield comprising of green pine radars from Israel,Rajandra phased array radars .Akash missiles and modified Prithvi missile developed locally,s-300 system from russia were inducted ,integrated and operationalized outside public glare.
The first region to get this comprehensive protection was naturally the national capital region with a ring of s-300 located within the perimeter of air bases that dot the landscape of the region.And this was the primary reason for formation of aero space command about the same time

India, Russia to co-operate in S-300 missile defense system
Daily News & Updates
India Defence Premium
Dated 2/2/2006
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New Delhi: Russia on Thursday said it was in 'advanced' negotiations with India on a $10 billion deal to provide the country with an anti-missile and a fool proof air defense system encompassing the whole geographical area.

"We have made major breakthroughs in the S-300 anti-missile sheet and have demonstrated the effectiveness of the system to the Indians," Vyatcheslav Dzirkaln, heading a high-level Russian defense delegation, said in New Delhi.

He said, "The system on offer will encompass coverage of the entire country plus regional grids and our system is much more sophisticated and better than the American Patriot PAC-3 system."

Posted: 08 Apr 2007 14:03
by Austin
Indian anti missile shield was quietly put in place as media and world attention was carefully diverted by the multi billion dollar MRCA deal . And this was the primary reason for formation of aero space command about the same time

Shankar do you mean this for real , AFAIK we have rejected the S-300 system as it dosent meet our needs, More every the Specs of S-300 seems to be hyped as we had tested it in one of the major army exercise near the western border and the system didnt perform as advertised

Posted: 08 Apr 2007 14:11
by Shankar
India develops new anti-missile system
Media Release
Nov. 27, 2006

India today unveiled an indigenous supersonic anti-missile system with defence scientists saying it had the capability to intercept incoming ballistic missiles thousands of miles away.

Labelled only as AXO (Atmospheric Intercept System), the supersonic missile underwent its baptism when it successfully intercepted a surface-to-surface Prithvi target missile at an altitude of 40 to 50 km over the seas off the interim test range site in Chandipur in Orissa.

"It is a new missile and not part of country's Integrated Guided Missile programme," top DRDO officials said on the condition of anonymity.

"We have been working on this anti-missile system for years," scientists said and claimed that missile had its own mobile launcher, secure data link for interception, independent tracking and homing capability and its own radar.

"The missile has response time of 30 seconds and once it detects a target it can be launched in 50 seconds," the scientists said.

While, affirming that India would still be observing the US Patriot-III anti missile shield, which Washington is developing, the scientists said that the Indian missiles was "in the class of its own".

Posted: 08 Apr 2007 14:14
by Shankar
Flag of India India has bought six S-300 batteries in August 1995 for $1 billion, probably the S-300PMU-2 version, believed to consist of 48 missiles per system. These will most likely be used in the short-range ballistic-missile defence (BMD) role against Pakistan's M-11 missiles.[13]

Posted: 08 Apr 2007 14:18
by Shankar
Missile Systems & Missiles



Agni I&II Missile Systems - India Nuclear, Biological, Chemical Capable IRBM
Prithvi Missile System - India NBC Capable SRBM
S-300 Unspecified Russia ABM system
Akash - Indigenous ABM. Dr. Abul Kalam recently visited Israel to acquaint with their Arrow ABM developments.
Astra - Indigenous Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM), R&D ... ms-pak.htm

The indian anti ballistic missile capability was never offcially confirmed nor was it ever strongly denied .But various sources in2005-06 period did indeed point to having such a recessed capability

Posted: 08 Apr 2007 14:38
by Austin
Its possible that few S-300's might be gurarding selected strategic site , installation , but again Its just speculation here as no one knows about it, S-300 are huge and bulky though mobile systems , You cant hide such systems from spy sats.

What is sure is we dont have any nation wide comprehensive & effective ABM system so far and that is what we are trying to develop and deploy via indigenous PAD/AAD.

Posted: 09 Apr 2007 00:54
by Shankar

As the political temperature rose on both side of the Himalayas ,an ill prepared ,under equipped and under funded army was being ordered into a possible battle of which there could be but one outcome. Their request for better weapons was held back since the necessary hard currency was not sanctioned by the finance ministry. Soldiers from the plains were rushed to high altitude posts without any acclimatization and ,difficult to believe today just 50 rounds of ammunition. To posts that was not served by any road and all supplies could be only carried by porters or air dropped. Russian helicopters a few that were available were not suitable for high altitude sorties. Accuracy of supply drops from air left much to be desired. All in all it was a sure fire recipe for military disaster.

[quote]Peking in anotherâ€

Posted: 09 Apr 2007 15:38
by Shankar

Posted without comments -a first hand account of initial days of sino indian border conflict by a senior officer who was taken POW and laterreleased.It talks about ad hocism in military command structure,total failure of logistics management in high altitude,complete failure ofinteligence agencies in predicting scale of PLA buld up ,acute shortage of weapons and ammo ,soldiers sent to fight and die for a war inwhichloosing is but pre destined .It is matter of shame that the finance ministerwhorefused funds for troops fighting and dying in the high altitude frozendessert still went on to become the prime minister of thecountry.The political leaders who were directly responsible for the rout ofacompletebrigade at Namka -chu was never held accountable and banished from public life for ever .They were all forgiven by the all forgiving indian public who managed to vote them topower again and agin in years to come

[quote]Remembering a War - A PoW in Tibet
The 1962 India-China Conflict

The Rediff Special/Maj Gen (retd) K K Tewari, PVSM, AVSM

As a result of the Chinese threat on our northern borders, some time in 1959the headquarters of the Eastern Command at Lucknow was
given the operational responsibility for the defence of the borders in
Sikkim and NEFA.I was at that time on the staff at HQ Eastern Command. The 4th (Red Eagle)Infantry Division was located at Ambala. Soon after it wasordered to move to Tezpur in Assam towards the end of 1959, I was posted asits Commander, Signals.

This division, trained and equipped for fighting in the plains, had suddenly
been deployed to guard the borders in this high mountainous region. While a normal division is expected to defend a 30-40km front in the
plains, we were assigned a front spanning more than 1800km
of mountainous terrain.Worse was to come. Even before the division could take over its operational responsibilities to defend the border with Tibet, orders for the execution of Operation Amar 2, for construction of accommodation forourselves, were received from Army HQ.This was the brainchild of Lt Gen B M Kaul, then Quartermaster General at
Army HQ. We were supposed to build temporary bashaaccommodation. Besides the fact that my regiment had to providecommunications for the division in an entirely new and undevelopedarea, we had now to become engineers and labourers!

My first four months in command were a real nightmare. We would certainlyhave preferred to rough it out in tents and spend the time
developing a reasonable communications set-up, getting our equipment
properly checked and maintained, and getting the men used toworking with the available equipment, which was antiquated and unsuitable
for mountainous terrain and the excessive ranges.

Even at that time, there were hardly any roads in any of the five frontier
divisions (FD) of Arunachal Pradesh. The road into Kameng FD,the most vulnerable, finished at the foothills just beyond Misamari.We were faced with shortages of every kind. It was during these early days
in NEFA that one of the commanding officers of an infantrybattalion sent an official reply written on a chapati. When asked for anexplanation, he gave a classic reply:

"Regret unorthodox stationary but atta [wheat flour] is the only commodityavailable for fighting, for feeding, and for futile

Sometime in 1962, orders came from Army HQ for Operation Onkar (the famous"Forward Policy"), which directed all Assam Rifles posts tomove forward, right up to the border.Of course, we in the army were to back them. The idea was to establish theright of possession on our territory and to deter the Chinesefrom moving forward and occupying the territories claimed by them. But thisorder was certainly not backed up with resources.At that time, our division had done almost three years non-family stationservice, and some of the units were already on their way out onturnover. Suddenly all moves out of the area were cancelled and orders reversed.

Brig John Dalvi, commander of the 7th Infantry Brigade in Tawang, was
ordered to move his HQ on a man/mule pack basis to Namka Chu

River area. An ad-hoc brigade HQ was created for the Tawang sector overnight with hardly any signal resources.

At that time, I was the only field officer of lieutenant colonel or higher
rank who had the longest tenure not only at the divisional HQ butamong all the divisional troops. I should have been posted out after a
two-year tenure in a non-family station.But I had also a sort of premonition, and I recorded it in my diary, that a
severe test was in the offing for me to assess my faith in the
Divine. I certainly had no idea that I would be taken a prisoner of war.On September 8, 1962, the Dhola post manned by the Assam Rifles on the
McMahon Line was encircled by the Chinese. After this incident,a new corps HQ was created to take charge of operations in NEFA. Lt Gen B M
Kaul was appointed corps commander. He arrived fromArmy HQ in a special aircraft at Tezpur in the late afternoon of October 4.
He went straight into a conference and at about 10pm,announced in his typical flamboyant style that he had taken over command of
all troops in NEFA. It was all so dramatic!Here was a new situation. Normally, in those days, a corps HQ would beserved by a corps signal regiment and another communicationzone signal regiment to back it. But these had yet to be raised and my regiment had to take on the load of not only our own division, butthe new corps HQ also.To add to these difficulties, Lt Gen Kaul had his own way of sending
messages. Normally, a signal message is supposed to be written in an
abbreviated telegraphic language. But all messages from the new corps
commander ran into a couple of typed sheets in prose and were allmarked Top Secret and Flash.They were not addressed to the next higher HQ, but directly to Army HQ. Youshould understand that normally Signals are required to stopall other traffic to clear FLASH messages and these messages also have to been ciphered first.

In September 1962, the higher authorities had obviously assumed that it
would be easy to beat the Chinese. Otherwise, one cannotimagine how such an order to engage the enemy could have been issued by
Delhi to the ill-equipped, ill-clothed, ill-prepared, fatigued,disillusioned troops.

When Dalvi's brigade arrived near the Namka Chu River after forced marches,he was ordered to throw the Chinese out of the Thagla ridge.

Arriving at the destination after an exhausting journey, my brigade signal
officer discovered that the generating engine to charge thewireless batteries was missing. A porter had dropped it in a deep khud on
the way, and it could not be retrieved.I think it was dropped deliberately, because I knew some of these civilian porters were in the pay of the Chinese.But I was in for a bigger shock when it was discovered that almost all the secondary batteries had arrived without any acid. I presume that what had happened was that the porters must have found it lighter without liquid and they probably decided to lighten their loads by
emptying out the acid from all the batteries.

How to establish communications when the batteries were dead and could not be recharged without an engine? Despite our good relations
with them, the air force helicopter boys refused to carry acid. There was noquestion, of course, of dropping sulphuric acid by air.
was I to do?

Finally, we filled up a jar of acid and marked it prominently: `Rum for
. On October 18, I flew from Tezpur to Zimithang where I

met the GOC, Maj Gen Niranjan Prasad. Later, I went to Tsang Dhar near theNamka Chu River in a two-seater Bell helicopter with just the pilot and with the 'Rum' jar strapped onto my lap.

I landed there in the late afternoon and marched down to Brig Dalvi's
brigade HQ. As I arrived, I could quite clearly see the massing of the
Chinese troops on the forward slopes of Thagla ridge.But when I discovered that every unit on the front had numerous Signals
problems, I decided to extend my stay by a day. Not knowing that
the fates had other things planned for me.
On the 19th, Brig Dalvi talked on the telephone with the GOC at Zimithang.He pleaded with his boss to let him move out of the `death
trap', up to a tactically sound defensive position.Brig Dalvi was told not to flap, but to obey orders and stay put. He was extremely upset and passed the telephone to me saying, "You won't believe me, Sir, but talk to your 'bloody' commander Signals and he will
tell you what all he can see with his naked eyes in front."
I spoke to the GOC equally strongly saying that one could see the Chinese moving down the Thagla ridge like ants with at least half a
dozen mortars, which were not even camouflaged. I added that the Chinese could not have been there for a picnic.

But I was also told to concentrate on my work and not to worry.

I stayed on with the Gorkhas during the night of 19th October. Early on the 20th morning, I was woken up from deep sleep by the noise of

intense bombardment. There was utter confusion in the pre-dawn darkness,
with people shouting and yelling and running around in the

midst of these exploding shells.

I came out of the bunker and somehow found my way to the Signals bunker with
two of my signalmen. But when I looked out of the

bunker, I was mystified to see no visible movement outside. There was no one
in sight. But I could hear short bursts of gunfire.

When I peeped out of the bunker again, I saw a line of khaki-clad soldiers
with a prominent red star on their uniforms advancing towards

our bunker. I had never seen a Chinese soldier till then at such close

I used to carry a 9mm Browning automatic pistol in those days with one
loaded clip. The thought immediately was that one's body should not be found with an unfired pistol; it must be used, however hopeless our
situation. So, when a couple of Chinese soldiers approachedour bunker, I let go the full clip at them.

This provoked a lot of yelling and firing and a number of the soldiers
converged onto our bunker. My two assistants were killed, but I was
still alive, though a PoW now.

The same day we were marched along a narrow track across the Namka Chu River and later we went up to the Thagla Pass (about 15,000
feet). On our way, we passed huge stocks of unfired mortar shells by the
sides of all the mortar positions, while on the northern side, we
saw Chinese parties bringing up 120mm mortars on a man pack basis.

After three days' walk, we reached a place called Marmang in Tibet. From
there we were taken in covered vehicles at night. During the
journey, the Chinese tried to demoralize us; they would make fun of our
army: "You do not even have cutting tools for felling trees. You
use shovels to cut down trees."

It was true; they had seen our troops preparing their defensive positions
near the Namka Chu River. There were other remarks, such as,

"You people have strange tactics. You sit right at the bottom of the valley
to defend your territory instead of sitting on high ground."

We arrived at the PoW camp located at Chen Ye [Chongye in central Tibet] on October 26 and were accommodated in lama houses, which

were all deserted, although we could see some activity in the monastery
above these houses on the side of a hill.We were to spend over five months in this camp, located southwest of Tsetang, off the main highway to Lhasa. The prisoners were segregated into four companies: No 1 company was all officers, JCOs and NCOs. Majors and lieutenant colonels were also separated from the JCOs and men. No 2 and 3 companies were jawans of various units. No 4 company consisted only of Gorkhas and was given special privileges, for obvious political reasons. Each company had its own cookhouse where the Indian soldiers selected by the Chinese were
made to cook.

In our house, we were four lt colonels (M S Rikh of the Rajputs, Balwant
Singh Ahluwalia of the Gorkhas, Rattan Singh of 5 Assam Rifles and

myself), while John Dalvi was kept in confinement in Tsetang, a few
kilometres away from Chongye.
When we made representations to the Chinese that under the Geneva Convention on PoWs, officers had the right to be with their men,
we were told quite bluntly that all these were nothing but imperialist

I shivered through the first couple of nights, but then had a brain wave. I
had noticed a pile of husk outside. We asked the Chinese if wecould use it. Luckily, they accepted, and we could use the stuff as a
mattress as well as a quilt to keep warm. For almost a month after our arrival, we were not let out of the room. Each of these lama houses had its own latrine in one corner with an open but very effective system of soil disposal. Unfortunately, by the time we arrived, the 'disposal squad' of pigs had itself been disposed of by the Chinese.

There was an English-speaking Chinese officer, Lt Tong, who was with us
almost throughout our stay in the PoW camp. He would come
daily and talk to us individually or together.The theme of his talk with the PoWs was monotonously the same: the Chinese
wanted to be friends and it was only the reactionary government of Nehru, who was a lackey of American imperialism, which wanted
to break this friendship. "Then why did you attack us on October 20?" was our reaction. They would try to explain that India attacked
first and the Chinese attacked only in self-defence.On December 5, we were given for the first time some books and magazines to
read. This consisted of Mao's Red Book, some literature on
the India-China boundary question, and a few Red Army journals. But whatever they were, they were most welcome for me at least.
There was something to do at last to occupy the mind. I took notes from theRed Book.

It is a pity that our government had not taken note of some of the Mao's
thoughts. I noted down a few at that time: "Fight no battle unprepared, fight no battle you are not sure of winning", or "The enemy
advances, we retreat; the enemy halts, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack; the enemy retreats, we pursue."

Towards the end of December 1962, the Indian Red Cross sent us some parcels,each with two packets in it. One packet had warm clothes,
a German battle dress, a pair of long johns, warm vest, muffler, cap,
jersey, warm shirt, boots and a towel. The second packet contained
foodstuff, including a bar of Sathe chocolate, tins of milk, jam, butter,
fish, sugar, atta (wheat flour), dal (pulses), dried peas, salt, tea,
biscuits, condiments, cigarettes, and vitamin pills. It certainly was a very
well thought-out list of items. Perhaps to demoralize us, the Chinese would often play Indian music on the public address system in the camp. One of the songs which was played repeatedly was Lata Mangeshkar's "Aa ja re main to kab se khari
is paar... (come, I have been waiting for so long...)" This
would make us feel homesick.With my habit of writing a diary, I kept notes as a PoW also. The onlyavailable paper to write on in the first week or so were some sheets of toilet paper in my para jacket pocket. The question was how to keep these papers from being discovered by the Chinese. What I had done was to open the stitching on the `belt' part of the trousers and slide the folded papers inside. This was how my diary notes on toilet paper could be brought out to India.

One day, towards the end of our stay, at our request we were taken to see
the palace and the monastery. It was a shock to see the palace

with all the beautiful Buddha statues of all sizes and fabulous painted
scrolls [thankas] lying broken, defiled, and torn and trampled on the


On December 25, we, the seven field officers, were taken in one of the
captured Indian Nissan trucks to spend the Christmas morning with

Brig John Dalvi at Tsetang. He was kept all alone and was comfortably
accommodated. We had breakfast and lunch with him and were

shown a movie. But the solitary confinement had left its scars on him.

The first letters we received from home came only in the third week of
February 1963. Some of us also received parcels of sweets.

On March 26, we were informed that we would soon be released and taken for a
conducted tour of mainland China. Suddenly we became

VIPs, though still held prisoner. We were given various comforts and new
clothes and shoes.

Before leaving the PoW camp, we asked the Chinese to take us to the gravesof our soldiers who had died in our camp. There were seven
of them, including Subedar Joginder Singh, who had been awarded a PVC.

The Chinese told us that he had refused to have his toes, which were
affected by frostbite, amputated. According to the Chinese, he had
told them that his chances of promotion to Subedar Major would be adversely affected if his toes were amputated. We were told that he
died of gangrene.

On March 28, we left the camp, ironically in a captured Indian vehicle, and
were driven to Tsetang to pick up Brig John Dalvi and threeother lieutenant colonels and five majors.
On March 29, we were all driven in a bus to Lhasa. On April 5, we were flown in two Il-14 aircrafts to Sinning. After a long tour of China,
during which we were shown China's so-called progress after the Communist revolution, we were informed on April 27 that we would be
handed over to India at Kunming on 4 May.

Posted: 09 Apr 2007 17:18
by nits
Shankar - a question to you...

Say if a full fledge war starts between India and Pakistan today... then is INDIA ready to handle and defend missile attacks from Pakistan on India's major cities like Mumbai, Pune, Banglore, Chennai, New Delhi etc... ?

Posted: 09 Apr 2007 17:43
by Hari Sud

All the above accounts is true but not always what really happened. A lot of officers after Hendersonbrooks inquiry started to tell their version.

True that Thagla Ridge, even fall of Bomdila was a political failure. But military failed too.

Chinese bypassed the Indian positions after Thagla & Twang and suddenly appeared at Bomdila. Poorly defended; Bomdila fell. If anybody tells me that Brigadier Hoshiar Singh is not supposed to watch a few positions on his flanks, then he is rewriting military tactics. Chinese simply let the brigadier sit where he was and in one single flanking movement appeared behind him. Brigadier Dalvi also missed do the same and badly lost. Then they all joined together to blame Lt. Gen B M Kaul.

None of the officers, who lead the men were up to the mark. Crying to defened their actions later is pointless. There you cannot blame the politicians.


Hari Sud

Posted: 09 Apr 2007 22:00
by Shankar

the Chinese attacked India on October 20, 1962. At the time, nine divisions from the eastern and western commands were deployed along the Himalayan border with China. None of these divisions was up to its full troop strength, and all were short of artillery, tanks, equipment, and even adequate articles of clothing.I n Ladakh the Chinese attacked south of the Karakoram Pass at the northwest end of the Aksai Chin Plateau and in the Pangong Lake area about 160 kilometers to the southeast. The defending Indian forces were easily ejected from their posts in the area of the Karakoram Pass and from most posts near Pangong Lake. However, they put up spirited resistance at the key posts of Daulat Beg Oldi (near the entrance to the pass) and Chushul (located immediately south of Pangong Lake and at the head of the vital supply road to Leh, a major town and location of an air force base in Ladakh). Other Chinese forces attacked near Demchok (about 160 kilometers southeast of Chusul) and rapidly overran the Demchok and the Jara La posts. In the eastern sector, in Assam, the Chinese forces advanced easily despite Indian efforts at resistance. On the first day of the fighting, Indian forces stationed at the Tsang Le post on the northern side of the Namka Chu, the Khinzemane post, and near Dhola were overrun. On the western side of the North-East Frontier Agency, Tsang Dar fell on October 22, Bum La on October 23, and Tawang, the headquarters of the Seventh Infantry Brigade, on October 24. The reinforcements and redeployments in Ladakh proved sufficient to defend the Chushul perimeter despite repeated Chinese attacks. However, the more remote posts at Rezang La and Gurung Hill and the four posts at Spanggur Lake area fell to the Chinese. n the North-East Frontier Agency, the situation proved to be quite different. Indian forces counterattacked on November 13 and captured a hill northwest of the town of Walong. Concerted Chinese attacks dislodged them from this hard-won position, and the nearby garrison had to retreat down the Lohit Valley. In another important section of the eastern sector, the Kameng Frontier Division, six Chinese brigades attacked across the Tawang Chu near Jang and advanced some sixteen kilometers to the southeast to attack Indian positions at Nurang, near Se La, on November 17. Despite the Indian attempt to regroup their forces at Se La, the Chinese continued their onslaught, wiping out virtually all Indian resistance in Kameng. By November 18, the Chinese had penetrated close to the outskirts of Tezpur, Assam, a major frontier town nearly fifty kilometers from the Assam-North-East Frontier Agency border. ... c_1962.htm

When the IA was ordered into NEFA in closing stages of 1959, it was faced with a deployment without adequate regional roads and infrastructure in this, one of the highest battlefields in the world. Almost all the posts in the forward and even some in the rear were supported by airlifts. Nearly everything had to be air dropped, right down to the daily rations, but due to the severe terrain, it was later estimated that only thirty percent of supplies dropped were recovered.
The rations provided to the troops had a calorific value suited for warfare on the plains rather then the high-calorie diet that is required for mountain warfare. Lentils, which are the staple food of the Indian "Jawan" soldier, could not be cooked at high altitudes. Pressure cookers, though requested were unavailable due to "administrative delays". Oil cookers, essential for keeping warm and cooking, were also in short supply.
Since the troops were widely dispersed without connecting roads, medical facilities were poor. Even the helicopters used for airlifts, recently purchased from Russia, were inadequate for high-altitude operations, and there was a marked shortage of spare parts. Winter clothing, and sometimes even basic clothing, was unavailable. New recruits rarely had the full list of items that were supposed to be issued to them. The army had no means of carrying heavy loads in the mountains and hence its mobility and firepower was severely reduced. Its main means of transport in the era of jets were mules and human porters.
The state of weapons and the training of the "jawans" (soldiers) were inadequate for the terrain they were on and the foes they faced. Almost all the equipment and weapons were of 1950s vintage. For instance, the standard infantry rifle issued was the Lee Enfield .303, dating back to W.W.II. Also, when the 4th Indian Division was deployed, it was not trained nor acclimatized for high altitude warfare. Most of its heavy equipment had to be left in the plains because of the lack of transportation. Thus they had precious little firepower they could call on if need be. Virtually defenseless, and committed against fully supported, fully entrenched, and a fully outnumbering enemy, the Indians fought most valiantly, inflicting heavy casualties on the attackers. Surprisingly, the Chinese allowed the casualties to reach Indian lines. Some time later, the Chinese were found burying the Indian dead with full military honors, a testament to the professionalism of both sides. And due to political ineptness, a defenseless India found herself at the defending side of an incresingly hostile conflict. Major B. K. Pant, commander 2 Rajputs, was a fine example in courage displayed by the Indian soldier in the battle. His company held fast against three waves of Chinese assaults and had suffered heavy casualties. Pant himself was wounded in the stomach and legs. Yet he continued to lead and inspire his men, exhorting them to fight till the end to the last man. The Chinese sensing that their obstacle in taking 2 Rajputs lay with Major Pant, brought a volley of machine gun fire on his position killing him instantly. His last words were "Men of the Rajput Regiment, you were born to die for your country. God has selected this small river for which you must die. Stand up and fight like true Rajputs." He died proudly shouting the Rajput battle-cry: "Bajrang Bali ki Jai."
By 9 am, the Chinese had completely wiped out the two regiments of the Rajputs and the Gorkhas. 2 Rajputs alone had 282 killed, 81 wounded and captured and 90 unwounded and captured out of their total strength of 513. Brig. Dalvi, finding that 7 Brigade was being run over by the Chinese, tried to lead a small retreating party of Indian troops back to Indian lines but was taken prisoner at Dhola. As expected, the Indian posts at Tsangle were eliminated giving the Chinese control over the western end of NEFA. At the eastern edge of NEFA, fighting commenced near the Indian strongpoint of Walong. Also on 20 October, the Chinese attacked the forward posts in Ladakh. The Galwan post fell within a few weeks as did other Chinese targets. After several hours of fighting, the Chinese managed to capture Indian bunkers in both forward and rear areas of the perimeter and pressurized one flank. Seeing that no reinforcements were forthcoming from the plains, Gurbaksh Singh at 4 p.m. decided to order a withdrawal from Bomdilla. He intended to regroup and fight at Rupa, 8 miles to the south. However, 48 Brigade's withdrawal was slow. Meanwhile, the requested reinforcements arrived at Bomdilla at 6:30 p.m. They were never told to the contrary even though Gurbaksh Singh had abandoned Bomdilla. Gurbaksh Singh again thought of defending Bomdilla, but by then the Chinese had cut his lines of communications. On November 19, 1962, Bomdilla fell at 3 am. The planned defence at Rupa never materialized and the remnants of 48 Brigade finally dissolved at Chaku, a position further south of Rupa on 20th November. All resistance by 4 Division had now ended.
On 18th November when the Chinese attacked, Bomdilla had only 6 companies in place of the intended 12. On the morning of 18th Nov., 48 Brigade was repulsing a Chinese attack in their prepared positions when Kaul phoned Gurbaksh Singh and asked for a column to be sent towards Direng Dzong. Gurbaksh Singh protested since that would mean pulling out troops form his defences and opening Bomdilla to the Chinese. Interestingly, at that time Pathania had already abandoned Direng Dzong and a relief column from Bomdilla would have served little purpose. Yet Kaul was insistent. Accordingly, at 11:15 am. two infantry companies, two of 48 Brigade's four tanks, two mountain guns were rounded up for Direng Dzong. No sooner had the column left Bomdilla, it was promptly ambushed by the Chinese hidden in the nearby wooded slopes. The Indian troops tried returning to their original positions, but these were already held by the Chinese. A full scale attack on the Bomdilla perimeter was now in progress. The '62 war highlighted several critical failures in India's warmaking abilities. First, and perhaps most significantly, the conflict highlighted political naïveté and ignorance toward the strategies of warfare and international relations. During the entire conflict, Indian diplomatic actions remained flaccid, and fluctuated between being confrontational to being manhandled. For example, intel told that the Chinese were building a road through Aksai Chin, yet the Government, apart from a few angry condemnations, chose to ignore the strategic significance of it for almost a decade, instead repeating to itself the mantra of Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai. Even upon discovery of this transgression, India's protests were weak-kneed. Later, in the middle of 1962, Indian leaders suddenly woke up to the presence of Chinese soldiers, to the exasperation of much of the army, on the Thagla Ridge. Nehru, advised by Krishna Menon and a coterie of sycophantic generals, ordered a reckless operation on the attacking Chinese. In the adoption of a forward policy, against the clamoring of sound tacticians, India deployed on ground chosen for its political significance, rather than tactical defensibility. The leadership's untenable demands on the Army were the root cause of the '62 debacle.
The war also highlighted the fact that the army was acutely under-equipped, out-dated, and ill-trained to deal with sustained conflict in the Himalaya. The acclimatization of troops was of critical import in this mountain war. Though Indian kill ratios were vary favorable, the damage caused by non-acclimatization of troops, particularly in the eastern sector, compared to the troops in Ladakh, who were better equipped and acclimatized, is very evident.
The '62 war highlighted several critical failures in India's warmaking abilities. First, and perhaps most significantly, the conflict highlighted political naïveté and ignorance toward the strategies of warfare and international relations. During the entire conflict, Indian diplomatic actions remained flaccid, and fluctuated between being confrontational to being manhandled. For example, intel told that the Chinese were building a road through Aksai Chin, yet the Government, apart from a few angry condemnations, chose to ignore the strategic significance of it for almost a decade, instead repeating to itself the mantra of Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai. Even upon discovery of this transgression, India's protests were weak-kneed. Later, in the middle of 1962, Indian leaders suddenly woke up to the presence of Chinese soldiers, to the exasperation of much of the army, on the Thagla Ridge. Nehru, advised by Krishna Menon and a coterie of sycophantic generals, ordered a reckless operation on the attacking Chinese. In the adoption of a forward policy, against the clamoring of sound tacticians, India deployed on ground chosen for its political significance, rather than tactical defensibility. The leadership's untenable demands on the Army were the root cause of the '62 debacle.
The war also highlighted the fact that the army was acutely under-equipped, out-dated, and ill-trained to deal with sustained conflict in the Himalaya. The acclimatization of troops was of critical import in this mountain war. Though Indian kill ratios were vary favorable, the damage caused by non-acclimatization of troops, particularly in the eastern sector, compared to the troops in Ladakh, who were better equipped and acclimatized, is very evident.

Posted: 09 Apr 2007 22:41
by Sudhanshu
I am wondering, how come our Prime minister, pandit Nehru can be so inefficient or I should take opportunity to use word the "Stupid", to do such mismanagement.

Posted: 09 Apr 2007 23:22
by Hari Sud
Way too much to read and digest in Shankar's background notes.

Right now attention is focussed on inbound Chinese bombers, which have just cleared the Himalayas (last Vivek's Post) and as per Shankar, the new missile defence system.

Let us see how it plays out in next post of Vivek.


Posted: 10 Apr 2007 22:54
by Devendra

We are waiting for your new post. :D

Posted: 11 Apr 2007 16:16
by vivek_ahuja
Way too much to read and digest in Shankar's background notes.

you are not kidding. i almost got lost trying to find my own last scenario post!!!:shock:

how about if we reduce the large passages and articles somewhat so some continuity is maintained in the scenario?

anyway, sorry for the large gap guys...i was out of station for a day and a half. so here's a somewhat larger post to make up for the delay. enjoy...

Posted: 11 Apr 2007 16:18
by vivek_ahuja

The two-dozen Chinese H-6 bombers were flying in six groups of four, with a separation of a few kilometres between each group. They were flying over the Kailas Mountain range at the moment, and would be passing to the west of Manasarowar Lake in several minutes. The aircrafts themselves were the ‘H’ variant of the venerable bomber, and were at the moment carrying only two KD-63 LACMs, one under each wing pylon on either side. This configuration allowed them to go for extended range from their staging areas in central China right up to the indo-china border, loiter and assemble without worrying about fuel and then launch their payloads and then return to base without need of in-flight refuelling. Earlier, the PLAAF high command in Beijing had wanted to use the ‘K’ variant of the H-6, which was capable of not only capable of carrying six missiles instead of four, but also carry the DH-10 LACM with far greater range. The DH-10 had a range of around fifteen hundred kilometres, but the current lack of these new missiles due to recent development meant that they were being configured only for launching strategic Nuclear weapons at this time. Also, the ‘K’ version aircraft were only now coming off the production lines at full capacity, and their shortage had reduced them to carrying the DH-10 as a strategic nuclear deterrent and thus not available for tactical missile strike use.

As a result, although the DH-10 was capable of ranges around fifteen Hundred Kilometres, and thus capable of launch from long distances, the KD-63 had a range of only Two Hundred Kilometres, for which purpose, the Chinese bomber fleet would have to cross the indo-china border near the Himalayan peaks of Nanda Devi in order to reach within firing range of New Delhi. The plan had therefore been somewhat convoluted. The basic idea was similar to that taken by the Indian CAC during operation PIVOT-STRIKE and PIVOT-HAMMER, and had involved diverting attention from the north-east into the north and central regions of India by a massive missile strike. The targets initially chosen by the PLAAF had been the CAC and some WAC airbases in the region, but had been overruled by the Chinese Premier Wang when the idea had been presented to him. He had forced the PLAAF to target New Delhi and thus political targets instead of military ones. That itself was a mistake, but one which the PLAAF chief could not refuse when standing in front of the leader of World Socialism.

The tactical plan involved the assembling of the six groups over the Manasarovar and Rakas lakes using the lakes as it as reference points. Then each group of four aircraft would head south one by one and pop up and over the Himalayas and launch their missiles, then dive back across the peaks into china and make their escape north. They were within a few minutes flying time of these lakes.

The problem was that the pilots had been informed of the Indian Jaguar aircraft strikes at Khaleb only a few minutes earlier, and that the Chinese radars had been jammed in the region by escort standoff jammers. The main radar at Khaleb had also been destroyed, and unfortunately for the Chinese bombers crews, that was to be their local controlling station for this mission. Even so, they really didn’t need the radars to guide them. They had their locations on GPS, they knew where New Delhi was, and that was really all that was required. What the Chinese mission commander was worried about, sitting in the lead aircraft, was the total lack of communications with the local PLAAF units on the ground near Khaleb.

He was trying to hail them, but there was no reply and there was no contact from their side either. He was able to communicate with the six groups using their UHF systems, and with Chengdu District High command using SATCOM systems, but that was all. He had conveyed his misgivings to his superiors, and had been assured that by the time he would begin his attack runs, there would be SU-27s and AWACS support to guard his aircrafts from the IAF and that they were already on the way, but for the moment the big lumbering aircrafts around him didn’t seem like a very safe place to him.

The first plains were visible from the cockpit of the lead H-6 as the bombers reached the foothills of the Kailas mountain range, and there the town of Khaleb was visible, not by its infrastructure but by the pillars of smoke within it that were visible all around. It had only been minutes before when the Jaguars had arrived, and the bright yellow-orange flames f vehicles burning were visible even from this height. To the left side of the cockpit was another awe-inspiring sight of nature, the two huge lakes. They were new visible. It was also their main jump off point. It was time to get to work. Another few minutes and the first four Chinese Bombers would pop up from the Himalayas and wreak death and destruction on their enemy’s national capital. Seeing the smoke and fires coming out of Khaleb, the Chinese crews were only too eager to return the favour.


Further south, the ARC B-707 crew had taken evasive action to avoid visual detection and moved from their position south of Rakas lake to near the north-west of Peak 7728, referred locally as Gurla Mnadhata, just near the Nepal-China Border. Indra radars were now tracking the ARC aircraft, and it belonged to the Nepalese. They had been ‘donated’ some radars to help them keep an eye on their airspace and to prevent Chinese airspace intrusion. Ironically, they were now tracking Indian aircraft to their north, and not something they ever expected to see. But they didn’t know that it was Indian, and the secret nature of the ARC mission precluded any conversation with the Nepalese even when they requested clarification from the aircraft pilots regarding the nature of their flight near their border.

For all the Nepalese knew, it was just another Chinese spy plane, but mostly the fact remained that they really couldn’t do much about it, having no air defence equipment worth speaking of. And the ARC aircraft was not really over the border in any case. So all that the Nepalese Air Force could do was send the information higher up and request clarification. And this they did, and eventually the request for some data reached in the hands of the IAF air attaché in the embassy, who refused to comment anything other than that he knew nothing about it and would get back with some more information later.

The problem was that now the Indian EW mission being run by the ARC was coming under jeopardy, and there were several ways in which that could happen. The first was that news would leak out from some mole in the Nepalese air force that they were tracking an unidentified aircraft near their border, and that would blow the game when the PLAAF found out that it wasn’t their aircraft. If the B-707 moved north to avoid detection from Nepalese radar, the Chinese bombers would acquire them visually.

Furthermore, as they were being forced southwards, they were also increasing the range between the ARC aircraft and the communications and radar systems it was attempting to jam and disrupt, and once the Chinese overcame that disruption, the cat was out of the bag. The whole PLAAF fighter fleet would then sweep down into the region to establish air superiority and eliminate the ARC aircraft flying within their airspace, and that would spell the end of Operation PIVOT-HAMMER and the current engagement about to take place between the Chinese bombers and the Indian Mirages that were seconds away from launching their missiles. Despite the risk to themselves, the ARC crew had to coordinate with the fighters to help them eliminate the threat to Delhi, or else hundreds might lose their lives. PIVOT-HAMMER could always be postponed, but the lives could not be recovered later. The Chinese had not yet launched their cruise missiles, and the four Indian fighters cutting through the thin air in this region were trying to make sure that they never would. These four lone Indian pilots had no Situational awareness other than PIVOT-CALLER, and the ARC crew had no intention of leaving them without it.

The four Mirage-2000s constituted PEGASUS Flight, and were without doubt the first line of defence against the Chinese threat. They were now within range of the Chinese bombers, but with their radars on standby, they were unaware of this fact and were depending on PIVOT-CALLER to make tell them when they were within range. That was when they would switch on their radars, acquire, illuminate and eliminate their targets. The problem was that there were only four of the Indian fighters and twenty-four of the bombers. There was no time to evaluate the danger of some bombers being able to launch their missiles before they were destroyed, but it still weighed on everybody’s minds aboard the ARC aircraft. Then it was time…

“PEGASUS ONE, this is PIVOT-CALLER. You are within range. Illuminate the sky. First four bombers at your twelve positions. Follow on bombers behind them. Inbound threat from SU-27s east of your position, at very long range. Low threat perception at this time. Will advise. Commence firing. Good luck. PIVOT-CALLER out.â€

Posted: 11 Apr 2007 20:15
by ksmahesh
Bravo Vivek,
I was holding my breath and my arm chair till I finished reading your post and I have only one word to say "AWESOME". Please post the next one soon. The tension of seeing mirage being ambushed by su27 which inturn shall be facing indian Su30MKI is simply three much.
excellent writing.

Posted: 12 Apr 2007 03:34
by Hari Sud
Four down twenty more to go.

That is tall order for four mirages.

Some miisiles will reach Delhi, so hold on, there is lot more to come.


Posted: 12 Apr 2007 09:17
by Sudhanshu
:) How about 5 out of 20 are forced landed to Lucknow airbase.

Anyways, final exam for AXO and other critical systems lies ahead.

Posted: 12 Apr 2007 12:04
by Kiran.Rao
I may be wrong but won't all escorting in case of a war always be done by the MKI.
Also in case of a war a certain number of MKIs will always be airborne ..ready to kill anything which tries to get closer to any thing important.


Will it be possible for you to let us know when the next post will be coming, so guys like me don't have to visit BR 6 times a day to check for the next post.

Posted: 12 Apr 2007 12:51
by Malay
Vivek, just one request man,

Everything is acceptable, if you atleast post 3 times a day!! Atleast we get to know what happens rather than wondering it.

Post man post as if your life depended on it!! :eek:

Posted: 12 Apr 2007 14:10
by ksmahesh
Malay wrote:Vivek, just one request man,
Post man post as if your life depended on it!! :eek:

Because our life surely depends on your posts.........

Posted: 12 Apr 2007 14:18
by Malay
ksmahesh wrote:Because our life surely depends on your posts.........

Quite literally! I live in New Delhi! :eek:

Posted: 12 Apr 2007 15:12
by Sudhanshu
Malay wrote:
ksmahesh wrote:Because our life surely depends on your posts.........

Quite literally! I live in New Delhi! :eek:

That was hilarious :lol:

Posted: 12 Apr 2007 18:36
by saty
Vivek is way too good, I wonder where he gets his stuff from? It seems he has been looking at some war plans of GoI some where ;-)

Sir, hats off.

Posted: 13 Apr 2007 15:43
by vivek_ahuja

The first four bombers were going down in flames, and pieces of debris still hadn’t hit the ground when the second Astra dropped off its pylon under the wing and ignited its motors and again the same story was repeated, but with some differences. The Chinese pilots coming up behind the first group had seen their comrades go down in front of them at the edge of visual range and they knew that they had been ambushed. As soon as they had got over the shock of seeing their comrades perish, they had initiated as steep a dive as their aircrafts could safely accomplish. They were now also more alert, and seconds after the four inbound missiles came within extreme visual range, the eagle-eyed pilots acquired them against the blue-sky background, and began to evade. But the fundamental difference between a heavy bomber and a small nimble fighter in terms of manoeuvring was now clear to them. Their aircrafts would not follow as their minds wished them to follow, and there were only a fixed number of seconds before the missiles sent them to the ether world. Those seconds were the longest of their lives, and as the missiles reached into their detonation proximity range, each pilot knew that those seconds were over.

The second group of four bombers and another group behind them had taken a turn to the north, and were heading towards the town of Khaleb in the hope of coming under the protective umbrella of its air defences. They didn’t know that those air defences were blind and deaf since long ago, thanks to the Indian EW B-707 flying to the south. The PLA troops fighting the fires left by the Indian Jaguars in Khaleb were only now getting them under control, and barely had their morale started to come up when they first heard the engine noise and then saw the four large bombers coming over their town, each flying erratically, as if trying to evade something. And then they saw why.

The trailing bomber in the second group was the first to be hit with the Astra targeted on it. The missile hit the rear fuselage and detonated in a massive explosion that destroyed the tail, sending the fragmented pieces flying in all directions ahead of a massive cloud of fire and smoke. The front fuselage and wings were remarkably intact, but were no longer flying, and instead spinning in all axes as they headed towards the hills below trailing a thick black column of smoke. Then the other missiles hit their targets.

The second and third bomber hit were hit in a similar fashion, and had relatively intact fuselages that were nonetheless heading towards the earth before smashing into the gradual slopes around Khaleb, in full view of the PLA troops below, who rushed towards the crash site of the third bomber to be hit because it had not exploded on hitting. It had actually not hit at all. Rather, it had slid up one of the slopes before it came rolling down the hill in a massive cloud of dust and smoke and then lay on the ground, with the front fuselage still relatively intact. The PLA soldiers on the ground site found that the co-pilot was miraculously alive, though in very bad shape. He and the pilot had done a remarkable job in flying the aircraft after it had been hit, and as a result the co-pilot was still alive, but the pilot was not.

The fourth and final bomber of the second group was the last to be hit and was not so lucky. The Astra targeted on it slammed into it at an angle and hit the fuselage-wing connection and then caused the fuel tanks to explode. This bomber did not come down intact and the massive explosion of the bomber with nearly full fuel tanks and two heavy warheads shattered the buildings around Khaleb and sent even more fires raging inside the town as the shabby and weak infrastructure of the town collapsed. The H-6 was barely five hundred feet of the ground when it had been destroyed in mid air, and the shock wave had been equivalent to a fuel air explosion over the town and the results were horrendous. Dozens more were killed when the burning pieces of wreckage came crashing down over the town.

The aircrafts should never have been over the town in any case, and the pilots should have taken their doomed aircrafts elsewhere were there were no friendly forces around, but having been chased by four lethal missiles had not allowed them to think that way and they had only cared about getting into the air defence zone around Khaleb. Seeing the massive destruction that had been wrought about in Khaleb because of the destruction of the four bombers of the second group, along with the ineffectiveness of the local Air Defence systems to protect them, the commander of the third group ordered his bombers to move away from the town and head north-east, into the safety of the Kailas peaks from where they had arrived only fifteen minutes ago. They would not make it that far.

Here things started going wrong for the IAF. The third group of bombers were moving Northeast, but the forth, fifth and sixth group of bombers were breaking up into pairs and heading to the south, towards the extreme northwest tip of Nepal and incidentally, towards PIVOT-CALLER. It would also allow them to reach within missile launch range of Bareilly AFB. It was clear that the main strike on Delhi had been aborted, and that was good news. The bad news was that as these H-6 bombers separated into singles and pairs, they were also diffusing and would require the four Mirage-2000s to split up into ‘individuals’, as the pilots referred to such tactics, and then seek out the bombers one by one and engage them. This meant that not all of the bombers could be intercepted, and that some cruise missiles would be launched. And the four SU-30MKIs heading north towards Tibet via Nepal could not be diverted to this bomber hunt, as they were being vectored towards the inbound flight of SU-27s by PIVOT-CALLER before they made mincemeat of the Mirages who were now starting to run low on fuel and missiles. The sky was starting to look like it was full of bombers now as the southbound twelve bombers diverged all over the sky into pairs at first and then into singles. It was every bomber for itself from now on.

The northbound group of four that was heading towards the Kailas peaks now actually had a much better chance of escape, as the IAF commanders discussed and argued via voice and data links as to whether the Mirage flight should be disengaged from this group and diverted to engage the bomber threat to Bareilly or to let the Mirages choose their own targets and let it all play out as bets as it can before the Chinese SU-27s entered the chaos in the skies above Manasarovar Lake.

The PEGASUS commander had no intentions of waiting, and even though he saw on radar the bomber groups splitting up to his southeast, he already had the northbound group lined up and he didn’t want this group to turn towards Delhi again if he diverted south. Time was of the essence and his RWR was already warning him that he was beginning to enter the extreme detection range of the Chinese Y-8 AWACS that was rushing to the south behind the SU-27s. Although he could not detect the SU-27s, he knew they were there, and that he was running out of missiles and fuel. It was time to take his shots and then dash south and let the SU-30MKIs deal with the Chinese fighters. He ordered his pilots to engage this group of four bombers with their third missile.

The third volley performed every bit as well as the first two and the four bombers fell out of the sky. Twelve down, twelve to go. The four Mirage-2000s flipped to their side and turned in a tight arc and then headed south and the twelve bombers flying towards Bareilly were now in front of them. Things were about to get complicated. They now just had one missile each, after which they would have to engage the remaining bombers with their front guns, and that meant eating up a lot of fuel trying to chase down these evading bombers and lining them up in their gun sights. The PEGASUS commander was actually somewhat relieved that they were heading towards the south now, and his uneasiness earlier as they had headed north into mainland China was reducing. Even so, he was now constantly monitoring the fuel level indicators and doing calculations in his head as the four aircraft dashed south to catch up with the bombers.

The Mirage has exceptionally good range, but that was assuming they had their main under wing drop tanks. In this case, they had had to drop these tanks when they had first engaged the bombers in order to prevent them from launching their cruise missiles. But there was little time to think of that now as the first bombers started coming into range, heading south. The white-capped Himalayan peaks were now again visible and showed where Tibet ended and Nepal and India began.

The tight group of four Mirage-2000s now loosened up as each of them began their individual search for targets. The commander with his fourth and last Astra missile engaged the first bomber that he had detected. And this time there was visual detection of impact as the Mirages closed in on the lumbering bombers. There was a small orange-yellow flash on the horizon, against the white snow background of the Himalayan peaks. The commander was now out of missiles, and while he attempted to get close to another bomber he had detected some distance away, all he could do was watch on radar as another Mirage pilot engaged another bomber detected to the east. That target was blotted out within seconds. There were ten more bombers to go.

That’s when the worst fears of PIVOT-CALLER came true. The ARC B-707 was now taking the tracking data from the Nepalese radars as the bombers came close to the Nepalese border. The Nepalese government had no air defence systems capable of shooting down this massive Chinese airspace intrusion threat, and so they were happily giving all their radar data to the Indians who were now handing it over to PIVOT-CALLER to help them coordinate with PEGASUS flight. That radar screen was showing the ten bombers spread out line abreast and within a kilometre of the Nepal-china border. Then one of the blips vanished and a Mirage pilot claimed another kill, but it wasn’t enough.

The screen got cluttered as each big radar contact signifying a bomber let loose two fast moving radar contacts heading south. These were the KD-63 LACMs. There was no stopping them now, and even though all nine remaining bombers might be claimed by the Mirages, the missiles were on their way. Nine H-6s had managed to launch a total eighteen missiles towards Bareilly, and these missiles were now skimming over the hills of the Shivalik range, eighty kilometres west of Nainital as they headed towards their target. The Chinese bombers had thus been forced to abandon their strike on Delhi only to have them launch their missiles at Bareilly AFB. Here the missile defences were not nearly as good as those around Delhi, and it was likely that most of the missiles would get through. Fortunately the base itself was empty, with the remaining few remaining SU-30MKIs ordered to take to the air immediately. Bareilly would be hit, and hit hard, as most IAF commanders now knew. But the damage to the IAF’s Su-30 fleet should be at a minimum, as only one aircraft on maintenance was to remain on the ground, but that too inside its hardened aircraft shelter.

The air war about to break out over Tibet between the same SU-30MKIs from Bareilly and the Chinese SU-27s was something that was grabbing more attention at IAF HQ at the moment. The missiles were heading south past the beautiful peaks of northern India ignorant to everything else happening around them. The time to target for these cruise missiles was now barely a few minutes…

Posted: 13 Apr 2007 16:57
by Hari Sud
These scenarios too good to be true.

No bomber squadron ever takes off without a fighter escort ahead of it. In this case it is behind it. Very unlikely.

Chinese will first target the ECM 707, before sending the bombers.

All missiles hitting the target, that means that the Chinese pilots are dodos. Not true either.

These are lopsided victories; good for an Indian movie.

Hari Sud

Posted: 13 Apr 2007 17:23
by Rahul M
No bomber squadron ever takes off without a fighter escort ahead of it. In this case it is behind it. Very unlikely.

that's the ideal case, many if not most military ops feature some level of lack of coordination.

the chinese bomber fleet took to the air w/o waiting for escorts 'cuz of fear of being bombed on the ground.
of course you can argue that they would have relocated to an interior location and regrouped later with all escorts etc to carry out an attack !!
a counter may be : the chinese thought not to give India time to track the bombers and be prepared for such an eventuality (attack on New Delhi) . they saw a weakness and tried to catch us off guard, let's say !
and also, expecting us to be off guard they would thought that by the time we detected the bombers and despatched fighters against them , they would have already fired the lacm's and be on their return leg, by which time the sukhois will be in place to deal with the threat.
and they almost succeded !! if they had, the outcome of the war would have been much more liable to be in their favour than ours. I would say the risk was worth it.

Chinese will first target the ECM 707, before sending the bombers.

they are yet to find the 707, remember !! they didn't even know such a thing was there, let alone looking for it !

All missiles hitting the target, that means that the Chinese pilots are dodos. Not true either.

and what would they have done if they were not "dodos" ?? undertake 9g turns in order to avoid the rad guided missiles ?? or do a cobra ?? they were flying fr***ing 50's era bombers, for gawd's sake !!!

only thing that I found weak in this scenario is that the bombers lack even SPJ.

and also, vivek is yet to introduce UAV's in this scenario. esp in the strike on the rad site,
harpy was a very likely candidate.

Posted: 13 Apr 2007 17:43
by PaulJI
Rahul M wrote: ...
Chinese will first target the ECM 707, before sending the bombers.

they are yet to find the 707, remember !! they didn't even know such a thing was there, let alone looking for it !


Something's jamming them. They can't miss that! So they know something is out there. What, & where, they don't know: but they'll have started trying to locate the source or sources of jamming almost as soon as it began. That single B707 is lit up like a Christmas tree all over the EM sprectrum: it can't hide. No, it's dead, & has been for a long time, unless it's very well protected.