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Possible Indian Military Scenarios - Part VII

rkhanna
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Postby rkhanna » 21 Apr 2007 00:04

Vivek... Great show man..

Just a little confusion.. I was wondering what happened to the Original Flight of Su-27s during the LACM Chapter.. Are these the same Su-27s now escorting the J-10? .. Or have i missed something in between.

And what about the MKI's who took off to ambush the Su-27s?

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Postby Shankar » 21 Apr 2007 00:16

there are no oil refineries in Duliajan.


oops -sorry -but then was it was a DDM reporting ???in the heat of battle pumping station got reported as refinery .

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Postby Devendra » 21 Apr 2007 00:18

good job viviek.
What happend to the SU 30 MKI that were going to face the Su27 on the earlier thread.

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Postby PaulJI » 21 Apr 2007 00:54

rsingh wrote:ksmahesh and ajay pratap.......Arunachal Pardesh IS NOT DISPUTED AREA....it is integral part of India. Please edit your posts now and post some true map. :evil: :evil: :evil: Do the necessary now.......stting with the stick :shock:


It's disputed by China. You can say that the Chinese have no grounds for disputing it, but denying that they dispute it is like saying that the sun rises in the west. You don't change facts by denying them.
Last edited by PaulJI on 21 Apr 2007 01:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 21 Apr 2007 01:03

There is no train link to Tawang and is not likely to be in the foreseeable future due to the mountainous terrain.


Correct. The key operative phrase being ‘at this time’. At the same time, I happen to have read some time back that it was indeed looked upon. The challenges are there in such things, but you might have to do it anyway, seeing Mr. China to the north improving every thing from roads to railways to airfields.
Engineering wise speaking, it’s rather straightforward. It has been done elsewhere in the world. Question then is...is it in your interests to do it? Absolutely. I have spoken to some knowledgeable people about this, and they agree that it can be done, and that it is needed.
I just happen to mention the merits of doing so in my scenario.

Specifically speaking, if you have a high-resolution map of this area, you can see that the road from Bomdila to Nkukmadung to Senge Dzong (peak 3467) is at much lower altitude than its surroundings, and holds the path for the road to the same the locations heading to Tawang. It’s quite possible to build a railroad here from the south. Whether it gets stopped there due to difficulties of terrain or whether it pushes up to Tawang then depends on factors other than engineering. Personally speaking, I would like to see this get done as part of the development in the region.
From this scenario’s point of view, the only limitation is in our imagination. And mine is limitless :twisted:

What happened to the SU 30 MKI that were going to face the Su27 on the earlier thread.


Just a little confusion.. I was wondering what happened to the Original Flight of Su-27s during the LACM Chapter.. Are these the same Su-27s now escorting the J-10? .. Or have i missed something in between.

And what about the MKI's who took off to ambush the Su-27s?


Two different theatres of war, people. Same war, different battles. Remember that the Chinese have a lot of Sukhois. They can have deployments in both sectors at the same time.

As for the Su-30MKIs in the Tibet region, hold that thought for a little more time... :wink: remember that while I would have indeed liked to have followed up on that Tibet air battle until the end, the war is being fought elsewhere as well at the same time whether we like it or not :)

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Postby rkhanna » 21 Apr 2007 01:05

ah thanks for the clarification vivek...

PS.. you got some skill there man..

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Postby ksmahesh » 21 Apr 2007 01:16

Vivek Bhai,
Wonderful build-up. It is indeed realistic. Looking at the asymmetry in war fighting machines of India and China there is no doubt that chini have greate material advantage. Can that be neutralised by some brilliant tactics.

I request you to include Brahmos to kick chini C3 for obvious advantage. Ofcourse the suggestion is my 2 paisa onleee

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Postby Sudhanshu » 21 Apr 2007 01:41

ksmahesh wrote:


Deer Rsingh saar,

Even in thish map Arunachal pradesh is not shown as Indian part (dotted line). This is a problem with all western maps. :twisted: I guess the oly solution is to make something similar to google-maps fromIndian perspective.

mulla mahesh


No, that is not the only solution. We can do something similar to what Vivek is writing, to fix this error once for all. :)
Last edited by Sudhanshu on 21 Apr 2007 01:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Malay » 21 Apr 2007 01:42

Vivek,

just one thing to add....

Dont forget the politics going on in New Delhi as well. It was these detailed views of the behind the scenes view of the power corridors of India that made your story so interesting to read in the first place.


Get an all round picture. Take time to analyse all that you have started and all that you were using before, human emotions, media reaction and control by govt, etc, etc.

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Postby rkhanna » 21 Apr 2007 01:46

BTW ..I dont think J-10's.. are strike capable as of today.. The J-10B maybe..

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Postby ksmahesh » 21 Apr 2007 01:55

Sudhanshu wrote:No, that is not the only solution. We can do something similar to what Vivek is writing, to fix this error once for all. :)


ofcourse I am all for it Sudhanshu ji :D :D . If only we could teach the chini a lesson for 1962 :twisted: .........................

I hope some day what we are reading here shall appear in newspapers as reality.

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Postby Vriksh » 21 Apr 2007 03:20

Even though I am patriotic and perhaps the following words are going to be quite painful...

The bitter reality is that today and maybe even 5-6 years in the future Indian Armed Forces have no way of stopping the PLA from occupying Indian territory if they choose to do so. Even today there are significant salami slicing operations that the PLA routinely undertakes in the border areas of Kashmir/UP/AP (this is from second hand reports from avid trekkers who visit the above areas every year) that is unanswered by the IA, since they do not have the resources that the PLA does in acheiving its goals (building roads) agressive patroling etc etc (Note for example the shameful surrender of IA men when a PLA platoon infiltrated 20 km in AP about 2 years ago). One of the reasons why AP is out of limits to Indian citizens specially at the border is the fact (I believe) that India is not in actual control of all the territory upto International border, that honor actually belongs to the PLA that is the overlord of those regions. Actually if an RTI is filed on actual line of control in AP I will not be surprised if PLA controls an area 50 km inside what is ours. The only difference being that we can afford and win a shooting war against TSPA we just cannot do so against PLA.

A careful analysis needs to be done on the amount of firepower that India can muster within a month in the AP theatre of war versus that of China, I will be willing to bet my bottom dollar that round for round, grenade for grenade, and in terms of KiloJoules of conventional explosives that can be delivered by air, artillery, men or missile the Chinese probably outmatch us by a factor of 5 if not more and will have more staying power due to a larger more indigenous arms industry.

The one key card that India has against China is a naval blockade of oil to the Chinese mainland. China knows this and is for all intents and purposes has made significant investments in protecting this corridor. When time comes when this energy corridor is safe they will plunge their claws into all disputed territories while our NBJprie (paging RM ) sing while the state withers around them. This will happen when the PLAN South sea fleet + TSPN combined navies are stronger than the IN and will roam the Indian ocean unchallenged.

I will repeat: The war for AP will be fought in the Indian ocean!

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Postby rsingh » 21 Apr 2007 03:29

PaulJI wrote:
rsingh wrote:ksmahesh and ajay pratap.......Arunachal Pardesh IS NOT DISPUTED AREA....it is integral part of India. Please edit your posts now and post some true map. :evil: :evil: :evil: Do the necessary now.......stting with the stick :shock:


It's disputed by China. You can say that the Chinese have no grounds for disputing it, but denying that they dispute it is like saying that the sun rises in the west. You don't change facts by denying them.


What nonsense........Lizard's endless claim on others land is not a universal truth as rising of sun. We are Indian and from Indian POV it is an integral part of India. If I say your house is mine and you are not going to give it to me................then your house is disputed and that is what you are going to tell to your friends........come to my disputed house? Don't write for the post count man , think before writing. To recognize others claim is sign of defeat. That is why they we don't recognize Chinese claim. Tomorrow they will claim Kolkata and I am sure some guys like you will be ready to accept that as fact. Get lost.

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Postby ksmahesh » 21 Apr 2007 04:50

The only disputed region on sino-Indian border is Tibet. :twisted: . Arunachal pradesh is (as aptly put by RSingh ji) INTEGRAL PART of India and this is non-negotiable position.

I also agree with CShankar that Indian forces are in no position to win a long and drawn out war with chini. But from our perspective if we can (i.e. have ability and will to) inflict immense damage on the chini for any design on our land then this will act as deterrent.

The fight game between a strong and a weak player cannot be on equal terms else the strong player shall always win. Perhaps this is the reason that NApaki army does not want to commit themselves to "no-first-use" policy. Perhaps this is same rationale behind open threat by some chini general to US for nuking US cities if unkil intervenes on behalf of Taiwan. I firmly believe that we must have realistic (and not romantic) policies. And in chini context the "no-first-use" policy does not hold good.

Ofcourse we shall also suffer huge damage in such war but if we make the cost of any such war for chini UNACCEPTABLE then we have won without fighting. Say, if we have ~2000 A3 missiles with over 5000KM range roaming all over India and a near perfect ABmissile shield (equal if not better than chini). Around 1000 combat aircraft with nuke carrying ability etc etc. Then chini will not dare gamble on the lives of 100 million people and metros like shangai, bejing, guangzhou etc.

If we can dissuade them from fighting over AP because of MAD then we have won the war and fixed the statusquo.And this means AP was, is and shall remain integral part of India.

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Postby Hari Sud » 21 Apr 2007 06:21

Now the Vivek scenario is reaching far beyond any imagination.

Till now everything was fine.

But to assume that rail link to Twang in the future; highly unlikely in next 50 years. Terrain rises and falls 19,000 feet and 7000 feet. Railways do not do that kind of slope today or in the distant future. Twang battle is being fought with 2007-2012 weapons, hence to assume that rail link exits at the time of writing is not very practical.

Tank battle with one hundred or so Chinese tanks and a much smaller Indian tanks is non possibility. No Chinese general will ever risk it, knowing well that terrain allows only single file advance and anti-tank missiles can knowout the bravest crew one by one. In these circumstances concealed tank can only be used as defensive weapon to block infantry advance.

Let us see how Vivek advances this battle theory over Twang.


Hari

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 21 Apr 2007 13:15

THE GREAT HIMALAYAS
INDIA
1845 HRS THURSDAY


The main Chinese SU-27 force was heading southeast from a point north of the great Himalayan peaks in china. It was therefore heading towards the Ziro airfield in central Arunachal Pradesh that was currently being used by the Army Aviation helicopter units for case-evac of army casualties that were being inflicted by the Chinese artillery on the forward Indian positions. But the main purpose of the SU-27s was not any of these targets. They were gunning for an aerial fight. Their job was simple: wrench the air superiority over Arunachal Pradesh from the IAF. And the forty strong force facing barely a dozen defending aircraft was fully capable of doing this. The PLAAF had had enough, and the gloves were off.

The SU-27 force was flying in three main groups of twelve, and the remaining group of four was laying back to fly close escort for the J-10 Force heading south. The three main groups themselves were in three loose groups of four aircrafts. These three groups would be penetrating the Indian airspace along a front of twenty kilometres, and would do so in another twenty minutes.

The entire fighter force was being supported by six H-6 EW standoff jammers to decrease the threat of ground based defences and missiles. Two of these were flying with the J-10 force and the remaining four with the SU-27 force. In addition, two KJ-2000 AWACS were now operating over the Himalayas, coordinating the strike packages. Further flights of SU-30MKKs were forming up to take over where the SU-27s would leave off, and for the moment they were flying close escort for the KJ-2000s. to support this massive array of force, every available H-6 tanker that was not flying in support of the air defence operations over Tibet was now flying northeast of Lhasa. The tankers themselves presented a massive fleet, and something that the EAC would have liked to go after but could not because of the impending hammer that was about to fall on the Indian army from the sky if they failed to preserve their air superiority over the north-eastern battlefields. The skies over china were now saturating with warplanes, and the same could not be said for the Indian side of the Himalayas.

On the defending side, the main advantage was the close proximity of the forward airfields in Assam. Every aircraft that would run out of ammunition could land and rearm and be in the air again in a very short time. The same could not be said for the Chinese fighters who would have to move to distant airfields to rearm themselves. In effect it meant that the combat effectiveness of every Indian fighter, especially the short-legged Mig-21s, increased many times. Also, the Indian air defence network was now fully in the air. One Phalcon AWACS, VICTOR-ONE was flying southeast of Tezpur and would retain overall airborne control of all Indian fighters in this battle.
Another Phalcon AWACS was being diverted from CAC operations to the region and was already in the air and on the way. The smaller Embraer based AEW aircrafts had been pulled south because of the threat proximity and would stay south the main Phalcon line to coordinate the IAF aircrafts coming into the region from the west, classify them on priority and ten hand them over one group at a time to the Phalcon crew coordinating the battles. In addition, the main ground based radars were up throughout the region, and were looking north.

In terms of fighters, fully eight SU-30MKIs were in the air, albeit in two groups of four. They would be engaging the SU-27s separately because of the lack of time for them to form up into a single group of eight. Another four SU-30MKIs were available, but at the moment they were flying next to the Phalcon as close escorts and would not separate to engage the SU-27s unless they posed a threat to the Phalcon. Their job was to ensure the survival of the main Indian airborne control aircraft in the region. Further, four Mig-21 ‘Bison’ aircrafts had scrambled off Jorhat within the last few minutes and were flying up to join the SU-30MKIs from the east.

Eight more SU-30MKIs were on the way, but were too far away to reach in time. They would not be available for the first engagements, but would reach the skies over Arunachal Pradesh as the Indian fighters mixed it up at close range with the Chinese SU-27s. At the moment they were flying over northeastern West Bengal and about to reach Sikkim. Another four Mig-21s were now waiting at the end of the runway at Jorhat, awaiting orders from the Phalcon operators to scramble off the ground. The four Mig-21s that had been armed with ground ordinance for support operations around Tawang were now being removed of their ordinance and refitted with R-77s for the air-to-air role. All ground support operations had been cancelled. Every and any aircraft capable of carrying air-to-air weaponry was being fitted out at various airfields across the EAC as ground crews scrambled to get the job done.

The already outnumbered Indian Defences were getting weaker by the minute as more and more threats were showing themselves on radar. The defending SU-30MKI force was split into two groups not by choice but by the circumstances and lack of time. One group of four was flying northeastwards from near Bomdila and was the closest group of Indian fighters to the Chinese SU-27s. Since the Chinese SU-27 force was heading southeast, these four Indian fighters were in a position to engage the rightmost group of SU-27s from their right flank. At first it was thought as a mistake from the Chinese pilots that they should enter obliquely into Indian airspace, but it was soon realized that they were in effect pulling the Indian fighters away from the area around Tawang, thus making them incapable of interfering with the southbound J-10 force. In any case, even if the SU-30MKIs engaged the Chinese from the right flank, their own left flank would be exposed to the four SU-27s coming along with the J-10s.

In addition, the choice of the Chinese incursion direction meant that the supporting fighters from Jorhat would have hit the Chinese fighters from the front and so could not hope to meet up with SU-30MKIs. In effect, what was happening was that the Chinese were driving a massive wedge into the Indian air defences. What defending fighters there were in areas around Chabua, facing inbound SU-30MKKs from the Myanmar theatre were about to be cut off from the rest of the EAC, unless they egressed south immediately, and that would leave the North-eastern tip of India undefended from relentless Chinese air attacks. The whole situation was doom laden from every angle. The only way the IAF could hold on to this piece of airspace over India was to decisively defeat the SU-27s, and there were far too many targets than there were defenders.

The first thoughts of an impending defeat were now coming into the mind of the EAC-AOC as he looked at the war being played out on a large digital map in his command headquarters that had now been relocated to Kalaikunda AFB. He felt far away and detached from the en of his command that were now facing incredibly difficult odds over the Himalayas. He could hear the Phalcon crew getting the fighter pilots into position and the frantic calls being made all around. There were three main threats heading into the region, and the first one was about to cross the border within the next few minutes.

Indeed, exactly two and a half minutes later, the first group of twelve SU-27s crossed the border over the large dark silhouettes of the Himalayan peaks. Two more groups followed them.

Just inside the Indian airspace, they were treated to the orange glow of the fires raging among the Indian army infantry positions around the hills as a result of the Chinese artillery attacks that had been momentarily halted to allow the Chinese aircrafts to burst through the airspace into India.

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Postby ksmahesh » 21 Apr 2007 14:18

please do not stop................else many like me shall start suffering from high BP

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Postby Shankar » 21 Apr 2007 14:28

IAF STATION TEZPUR- 0630 HRS FRIDAY

Group captain Desai looked at the orange sun just clearing the eastern horizon. Low cloud celing at 7000 ft would be an advantage he hoped ,atleast it will prevent mannual tracking of the fishbeds as they come in low over the ridge line in thier highly risky close air support mission targetting the chinese armor and motorised infantry traversing almost in a single file on thier approach to Tawang .

Behind him the long line of mig 21s streched out .In the first flight of 12 air craft only two instructor pilots were there ,rest were about to complete advanced trainning catagory pilots though most of them have carried out live fire exercise but mostly air to air type and a few air to ground strafing and rocket strike .He hoped not many of them will make serious mistake today under hostile fire .

- Blue strike lead -tower-you are cleared for minimum seperation take off
-climb runway heading to 5000 ft -contact dazzle eye(phalcon ground strike co ordinator ) at altitude - good luck and good hunting -over

- tower -blue strike lead -read you oud and clear- cleared for immediate take at minimum seperation- contact dazzle eye once in air-over and out

The raspy roar of RD25 filled the tarmac as one after another the twelve mig 21s took off using barely 40% of the available runway and banked out sharply heading straight for the target zone .The levelled off at precisely 5000 ft ove rthe mighty brahmaputra and switched frequency to thier controller on board phalcon somewhere south east of tawang .The link was good despite early morning thermals and the voice of mission controller cool and reassuring to the young pilots as they eased off the after burner and waited for target vecor

- blue strike lead -blue dazzle -i have control
- roger that blue dazzle -you have control
- blue strike be advised significant number siera unicorn 2 7 in the target periphery - climb down to 250 mtrs over ground level -use ingress route zeta -bravo followed by bravo alpha 2 9 -use single file max speed ingress-only one weapon pass this time repeat one weapon pass only -confirm
- roger that blue dazzle -blue flight lead copies - making altitude 250 mtrs -ingress route zeta bravo followed by bravo alpha -one pass only -over

The 12 mig 21s formed a single file and turned into the gorge of a small unmarked tributary of brahmaputra and followed the meandering river course ,protected from the powerful radars of the PLAAF sukhois in the are by the near vertical mountain walls on both sides .

They reached the tributary junction and again turned in unison along the next gorge which will take them very close to the target zone still shaded by the friendly mountains and tall trees.The tarangg radar warning recievers started beeping intermittantly but still no lock on as they reached end of the gorge and sharply pulled up over the rounded hill top and into a murderous anti air craft fire .Below them were the long line of PLA tanks ,artilerry and fuel bowsers - a real taget rich envronment

Group captain desai scanned the situationin a second and issued the necessary attack instructions

- blue two and three take the lead tanks now
-blue 3 and four destroy the last batch of fuel tankers
-blue 5 and 6 take the command tank in centre with many antenas

And the fishbeds went into a merciless robotic attack . Their main purpose was to immobilise the advancing infantry and armor column .Subsequent flight will take care of the destruction part .

First of the shoulder fires sams flashed out and blew up one of the migs as he was positioning for attack run ,shilk fire from tracked carrier claimed another who was rather slow to turn into attack .the rest came in at sharp angle and released their load of 57 mm rockets neatly blowing out the lead tank tank column and the chinese advance came to a shuddering halt .In the tail end of the column the fuel bowsers after recieving direct hit was burning furiously and an adjacent ammo carrier exploded by intense heat of the burning bowser

Blue 5 waited just a second longer to watch his handi work ,he should not have done that as a stream of 23 mm tracers rose up and plucked him out of the sky in a flamming ball of fire .

The rest of the migs came on now and dropped thier load of FAB 250 ina neat line all along the chinese army column and pulled up sharply and banled out of the deadly shilka range but not before two more went down ,both by SA6 sams fired from their tracked mounts .

5 out of 12 were down ,the rest seven quickly dropped into thier protective gorge and exited the area .They have met thier mission objective of stopping the chineese advance -but at a terrible price.

The second wave was already taking off and blue flight had to quickly go back ,refuell ,re arm and come back for another go at the enemy .The advantage gained by the sacrifice of 5 very young men will not be allowed to go waste

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 21 Apr 2007 15:36

Image

guys, if you liked this marked scenario map, let me know if you want me to put up a similar map for the tibet air war of previous posts.

i wanted to put these markings on the real maps some of you had posted earlier but i was not sure about whether the owner would like it or allow it.

Vivek Ahuja

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Postby ksmahesh » 21 Apr 2007 16:04

Of course please post more such battle maps but not at the cost of your story posts. They are much more valuable.

JMT

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Postby niran » 21 Apr 2007 17:00

Dear Writers Sir,
your writing with map is outstanding. and please sir do not wait for our replies, particularly when we have chhini attacking with air,tanks,helicopters infantry,not to say of their huge numerical upperhand. almost got me a burst ulcer,

One more thing, chinni pilots are not, me say again, are not so well trained as you make them in their stories. me have faced them
(in a simulation, of course) and found them unworthy of my steel. me in a F16 them in Su27s outnumbering by one to sixteen they managed to lose
eight of their ac before they got me with their sam.Even the stats say so.
IAF pilot fly on average 260hrs in a year, chinni fly 110hrs in a year. therefore methink 3 flight of MKIs should be overkill.

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Postby ksmahesh » 21 Apr 2007 17:27

ajay pratap wrote: One more thing, chinni pilots are not, me say again, are not so well trained as you make them in their stories. me have faced them
(in a simulation, of course) and found them unworthy of my steel. me in a F16 them in Su27s outnumbering by one to sixteen they managed to lose
eight of their ac before they got me with their sam.Even the stats say so.
IAF pilot fly on average 260hrs in a year, chinni fly 110hrs in a year. therefore methink 3 flight of MKIs should be overkill.


Chinese pilots firing SAM is a new thing . :eek: :eek: . Maybe the chini have new kind of weapon carrying sam in plane. :wink: :lol:

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Postby niran » 21 Apr 2007 17:56

Dear khmahesh,
chini pilots never got me. their air defence SAM got me.Thats the reason methink they are cadets in comparison to IAF pilots.

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Postby ksmahesh » 21 Apr 2007 19:55

ajay pratap wrote:Dear khmahesh,
chini pilots never got me. their air defence SAM got me.Thats the reason methink they are cadets in comparison to IAF pilots.


great, but were your opponents really chini pilot. or chini rookies? :wink:


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