Page 2 of 9

Posted: 13 Feb 2007 16:39
by vivek_ahuja
oops, forgot to add...
please, all readers of my post, any and all technical and other mistakes may be pointed out without second thought.
also, please bear in mind the human aspects in times of war. technical details are but one of the major parameters in times of crisis. for example, nervousness and a heart on the fast track for a soldier entering combat for the first time can negate the technical superiority of his equipment while he bundles about trying to get the job done. that's where training comes in, of course, but please do consider this human element while reading the story...

Posted: 13 Feb 2007 16:47
by Hari Sud

You are doing fine.

Just make your scenario a bit shorter to read.

Also deal with one subject only in one post. Otherwise it becomes too confusing and too much to remember.

Carry on!!!


Hari Sud

Posted: 13 Feb 2007 17:25
by vivek_ahuja
Just make your scenario a bit shorter to read.

I thought myself that it was way too long...but thanks anyway, keep such responses coming :)

Also deal with one subject only in one post. Otherwise it becomes too confusing and too much to remember.

got it. will do.

Posted: 13 Feb 2007 17:53
by nits
vivek_ahuja wrote:oops, forgot to add...
please, all readers of my post, any and all technical and other mistakes may be pointed out without second thought.

Vivek.. good going...


1) Try to break the therad in small Paragraph and have 2 -3 lines gap in each para if post is long... this will make the post more easily readable.

2) Try to put the sentence spoken from some one in Quotes ("" "")

3) Use Bold Headings\summary it will emphasis the current situation...

4) If possible (if time allows you...) publish one post per day...
Overall its a intresting scenario... Keep it up...

Posted: 13 Feb 2007 19:27
by Hari Sud

Tell me more about Lulu publishing.

In an earlier post you had recommended to use this service for publishing. I wish to know more. Especially any copyright infrigement in case Shankar's BR scenarios are published.

BR management keeps mantaining a deafening silence on the subject. We have to do something now or the volunteers will loose intrest.


Hari Sud

Posted: 13 Feb 2007 22:50
by skaranam

You had mentioned about using maps. Here is something u can do. How about uploading the map, that you are using, so that we have a common reference point.

I of the common file hosting services would do the job.

BTW, excellent start...


Posted: 14 Feb 2007 11:20
by vivek_ahuja
You had mentioned about using maps. Here is something u can do. How about uploading the map, that you are using, so that we have a common reference point.

i have the maps for the entire region from the corrected verification survey of 1975-76 done in the 1980s for the indian armed forces. since then they have updated these more accurate surveys, but i the geography still remains the same, so i will scan it anyway and put small relevant sections here, and then if someone else has better maps, he can mail it to me and i will mark the details on that map using photoshop and then post it.
then we can all hover over the tactical and strategic maps like real generals! 8)
in any case, i will post the tactical maps later today...

BTW, excellent start...

thanks. its encouragement like this that makes me want to write all day long...but work prohibits me from writing more than a few pages each day :cry:

Posted: 14 Feb 2007 11:41
by vivek_ahuja
okay everybody,
here's the next post. the discussion in the crisis center in the DGMO is continuing. bear with the discussions because, you know, its always interesting to know the decision making process before writing about the execution phase, gives you a more indepth look into what it takes to be a theater commander and how lives and national security ride on your decisions.
that's the reason why i had made this particular discussion a bit long because the whole story evolves from this meeting and some others like it

hope you enjoy reading it as much as i enjoyed writing here goes



“Indeed, General.â€

Posted: 14 Feb 2007 22:02
by Shankar

Captain Hasmat knew now is the time to take a command decision. He expected to be within harpoon firing range in about 3 minutes and that would not necessitate getting out of AIP system till the missiles have been launched and after that he would have no other option but to use whatever battery power he has to make a quick gateway before the helos and orions on patrol get wise and start a concerted strike . But launching harpoons at so very well defended warships like Indian destroyer which was equipped with barak anti missile system and us guided missile cruiser equipped with aegis/sm2/sm3 system may not ensure success by a long margin The alternate option was to sneak in at slow speed ,hope they will not be detected and fire a barrage of torpedoes at both the destroyer and cruiser and then use full speed escape option. Hopefully once under actual attack the enemy ships will be some what slow in responding and the in evitable counter strike will take that few extra minutes required to escape to the deeps .And the final option was to close in at full speed with battery power ,giving the enemy minimum time to detect and launch counterstrike and then slow down once the torpedoes have been launched and then quietly go deep and hope to get out of range on AIP power alone .

The biggest challenge for any air independent propulsion system is the quantity of stored fuel and oxidizer .In case of MESAM the liquid oxygen and ethanol tanks take too much of the available on board space . In case of fuel cell based AIP it is space plus the safety aspects of storing hydrogen whether as liquid or high pressure gas. One of the solutions suggested have been to use hydrogen in form of metal hydride ,essentially a compound of hydrogen and metallic alloy where hydrogen molecules occupy the intermolecular space between the metals crystal structure. Another option suggested but never seriously pursued was on board generation of hydrogen by reforming of liquid hydrocarbon like diesel. In this process the hydrocarbon fuel is made to react with superheated steam under high pressure and the resulting reaction products is hydrogen and carbon di oxide .The carbon di oxide is removed by scrubbing with an alkaline solution like sodium hydroxide and the comparatively pure residual hydrogen used as fuel for air independent propulsion system.

Captain Hasmat also knew one limitation of much vaunted and over marketed air independent propulsion system that is never mentioned by the sleek submarine manufacturers or the AIP system vendors is that the maximum power output from the existing air independent propulsion systems available today is limited to about 300 kilo watts compared to the actual power used for normal cruise by a HDW /Agosta 90B class submarine is of the order of 2500 KW and for nuclear subs in the order of 23000 KW. This in practical terms mean you cannot really fight an underwater battle or escape fast from an unfavorable situation depending on the built in air independent propulsion system. There is also no such thing a closed cycle air independent propulsion system since all types of AIP will need to expel the combustion products used to generate steam some time and that will limit the cruise depth except for the hydrogen fuel cell type systems where the combustion products is water vapor which can be condensed by heat exchange with sea water and the condensed water can be used within the submarine but this option comes with the safety hazard of carrying highly flammable hydrogen within the close confines of a submarine ,possible under combat condition.

Unknown to him ,several thousand meters over his sub the mirage flight tasked with anhilation of the coalition task force was about to be seriously challenged in its intention.

Posted: 15 Feb 2007 01:24
by vivek_ahuja
okay, here's the last big post before the shorter ones begin (along with the fun)


“Sir, we can make a difference. Definitely. There are a lot of roads and bridges that we can block or destroy in Myanmar, which will stop both sides from moving and engaging each other, giving us more time to deploy ground forces to help the loyalists. The Myanmar air force was in a worthless situation before and it is gone to even lower levels since the coup began. As far as we can tell, many of their aircrafts were destroyed on the ground itself when fighting broke out within various groups of servicemen at the airbases themselves. It turned out that many of their air force officers were backing the coup while the others were opposing it. They both tried to recruit the NCOs and airmen to join their cause and the eventual gunfights damaged many aircrafts on the ground, some even started to burn and were damaged beyond repair, according to our aerial recon. Some pilots appeared to have tried to take off when they were shot at by their own surface to air missiles. Many of the airbases have now fallen into rebel hands but the fighting at those locations is still continuing. What bases remained loyal are mostly in the western parts of that country, that is, near to our side while most other bases have completely seized operations. This allowed some fifty odd aircrafts of all types, including counter-insurgency types, to mount an all out air campaign against the rebels from their western airbases. The attacks showed some signs of success, with reports of heavy rebel casualties reported by our Intelligence."

"Then the Chinese moved in with their fighters from bases in the south of their country, mostly in the Yunnan province, but also in the Xizang province, known to us as the Tibet Autonomous Region. The aircrafts on both sides were same types for most of these air battles, mostly the F-7 variants, but then the Chinese moved in their SU-27s during the last twelve hours and have started to completely decimate the remainder of the Myanmar’s loyalist air force or the Tatmadow Lei or TL, as it was called until very recently."

"For this reason I want to move in our SU-30MKIs into this region. If we want to ensure air superiority, we can do it with our SU-30MKIs. They will effectively destroy the Chinese SU-27s in air combat, but then the Chinese will move larger numbers of these aircrafts into the region and then we will start to take losses, which I am not prepared to accept. So, the other option I see is to send in the SU-30MKIs to ensure local air superiority, call in the MIG-27s for the ground strikes, then quickly pull the whole force back into India, preferably with no losses on our side. Then we repeat this process again and again, with variations in aircraft numbers, direction and altitude of airspace penetration and points of penetration of Myanmar’s airspace. If the Chinese attempt to pursue our aircrafts into Indian Territory, I will have some Spyder SAMs ready for them on the hills east of Kohima. These will knock the Chinese aircrafts out of the sky before they come anywhere close to our bases."

"As for the effects of the air strikes themselves, the best I can do with such restricted methods is provide more time for our land forces to move into the area of operations. Also, I can forward deploy another Spyder unit with these army units to provide a bubble of air defence over their heads when they move into Myanmar. Also, I want to add that before you consider any air campaign on our part, we should attempt to contact the Tatmadow Lei high command, whatever is left of it, and ask them to back off from areas that we want to attack, or else we might not be able to differentiate between Chinese and TL F-7s and my pilots may accidentally shoot down their fighters.â€

Posted: 15 Feb 2007 01:37
by Rahul M
nitpicking vijay, spyder will be with army, not IAF as your story suggests.

Posted: 15 Feb 2007 02:08
by vivek_ahuja
nitpicking vijay, spyder will be with army, not IAF as your story suggests.

but i thought it was for the air force as well.
i mean, look at the article given below from that india-defence site.

India to buy Israeli Spyder surface-to-air missiles
Dated 5/10/2006
India is close to wrapping up a Rs 1,800-crore deal with Israel for buying Spyder quick reaction air defence missile systems.

The Indian Air Force is purchasing 18 Spyder missile systems, Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi told reporters here todayThe system's Python-5 and Derby missiles will give the IAF the capability to engage enemy aircraft, helicopters, unmanned air vehicles, drones and precision-guided munitions.

"Price negotiations are over and the deal has been sent to the Cabinet Committee on Security for clearance" Tyagi said.

The system can provide air defence for fixed assets like airbases, nuclear installations, VVIP buildings and point and area defence for mobile forces.

Israeli and European consortium MBDT were in the contention.

With a kill range of less than one kilometre to more than 15 km at altitudes from 20 metres to a maximum of 9,000 metres, the Spyder be achieve full-readiness state in less than five seconds of target confirmation.

The system, built by Rafeal armament development authority and MBT missile division with Elta radar and Israeli Aircraft Industries, is capable of simultaneously engaging multiple targets. It can operate day and night in all weather conditions.


then i find this article given below on the NDTV site.
what's going on? are there two seperate deals or is it that nobody in the media has figured out who its for?

Sunday, September 10, 2006 (New Delhi):

In a move to overcome the vulnerability of its formations to threats from the air, the Army plans to induct Israeli quick-reaction Spyder air defence system, officials sources said.

The army has finalised plans to acquire four regiments of the Spyder systems equipped with Derby surface-to-air radar guided missiles and Python-5 infra-red missiles from Israel's Rafael armament company.

The army, according to sources, has finalised the contract and the deal worth about Rs 1,100 crore is awaiting the approval of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS).

Spyder systems will be mounted on indigenous Tatra trucks and replace the army's Russian-made OSA-AKM and Strela-10M missile systems.

The road-mobile Spyder system was developed by Rafael along with the MBT missile division and ELTA radar division.

It is capable of countering threats from helicopters, aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles and precision guided munitions. The system can target aerial threats from one km to 35 km away.

A Spyder squadron consists of a mobile command-and-control centre and four mobile firing units, each carrying up to six missiles.

The system is equipped with an EL-M-2106 ATAR 3-D surveillance radar and two operating stations. The radar can simultaneously track up to 60 targets.

The Python-5 missile has an imaging infrared seeker that gives it increased detection range, improved target discrimination against background clutter and a lower false target acquisition rate.

The system has a medium range active radar-guided missile, which incorporates programmable ECCM equipment and operates in the lock-on-before-launch mode for short-range targets and lock-on-after-launch mode for medium range targets.

Posted: 15 Feb 2007 02:37
by Rahul M
you are correct, does seem like both are getting it.
however IAF version is likely to be used for protection of high value fixed targets. your scenario should involve IA things only imho.

Posted: 15 Feb 2007 07:43
by vivek_ahuja
IAF version is likely to be used for protection of high value fixed targets

this thought had occurred to me as well when i was writing this scenario.

your scenario should involve IA things only imho.

actually you are right. that far east, it is more likely that the indian army's air-defence bubble would be extended rather than an air force system.
unless the air force was specifically asked, i think, but that's unlikely.
so..let me see if i can modify the scenario conversation somewhat...

anyway, thanks for your thoughts. keep the reviews coming!!

Posted: 15 Feb 2007 21:43
by Shankar

Ivanov looked at the central multi functional display now showing the aerial situation of the intercept zone and computer generated threat priority and weapons most suitable for each target . But then the threat priority assessed by the attack computer for the mirage on flat climb out was lowest as it was getting away from his air craft and was not tracking him at the moment .The computer assigned highest priority to the two mirages now banking in to intercept his aircraft with the air search radars on and expected to go on tracking mode any second .

Ivanov smiled to himself within the mask as found the somputer quite stupid once in a while particularly in an unusal battle situation like today as he knew the micro chips cannot comprehend the threat posed by a free fall nuclear bomb or even identify it as such even close up . The flight profile of dropping a nuclear bomb though stored some where in its extensive data base obviously was pushed out by more immediate and realistic threat of a missile search radar paint .

He did not even blink as he quickly switched the attack mode to manual and then selected GUN mode .The selection was not without reason . First of all he knew he has to kill the pilot if the nuke is to be positively stopped from being released even after he has launched his R-73s at the target mirage.Secondly too many aircrafts were now in the sky and that included three of his brightest student pilots –he did not want to take the chance of hitting any one of them ,even by mistake . Thirdly he knew the mirage has a highly automated and effective missile counter measure system and the moment he launches his missiles the enemy pilot will deploy flares and then may be release the bomb prematurely which even if misses the target can cause enormous environment damage and possibly heavy causality amongst the thousand od allied soldiers embarked on the landing ships of the expedition force .

At the moment he was at 10500 mtrs and level ,the mirage was at 9250 mtrs and still climbing with a climb rate of nearly 1000mtr/min and slowly slowing down as it struggled to generate adequate thrust level in thin air and carrying comparatively heavy high drag payload .The mirage was at his 7 clock and getting into his 9 oclock as the distance between them closes down and then he will over shoot the target and then may not have a chance to engage ,before too late anyway .

Reflexively Ivanov pulled up on the stick and deployed the air brake and then nudged the stick smartly to right and the state of the art engine control software and the thrust vector controlled engines did the rest as it generated an asymmetric thrust just enough to execute the sharp braking and quick turn as required for the aircraft to be in a gun firing position . The mig 35 was now at right angles to the climbing mirage using a turn radius of less than 1000 mtrs and the guns were already energized as the aircraft was getting into a firing position. The floating gun sight quickly settled on the sleek mirage and now Ivanov could clearly see the long cigar shaped nuke hanging ponderously from the delicate air frame and the shape of the pilot helmeted head as he tried to look sideways at the new twin tailed miracle which have managed to turn while diving in such a small volume of air space and now pointing straight at the cockpit .He reached forward to flick open the weapon release protection tab .

Ivanov did not even think as he smoothly broght the black cross hair on wide angle head up display to bear up on the projecting pitot tube of the mirage and squeezed the firing button once twice thrice .

The Gsh 30-6 roared which actually sounded like a muted cough within the insulated cockpit and the tracers raced out ,throwing up a curtain of high speed exploding shells in the path of the climbing mirage 3 . With a fire rate of more than 2000 rounds minute and proven capability to destroy any aerial target with just two or three rounds the three 5 second burst took apart the climbing ill protected mirage piece by piece . The cockpit separated out first and dropped to the ocean below even when the rest of the air frame still climbed on with the deadly cargo still attached to its centerline pylon.The second burst stitched the fuselage ignited the main fuel tank and even before the fire ball has time to form the third burst tore up the wings and the wings dropped clear as the inevitable explosion from the fuel tanks created a spectacular display in the morning sky .

Miraculously the maraging steel casing of the bomb took the hits well and did not disintegrate and so also the nuclear device did not explode .It dropped clean torn from the pylon and neatly got lost in the murky waters of Arabian sea –for ever.

Posted: 16 Feb 2007 01:11
by vivek_ahuja
0630 HRS (IST),

The skies were covered with white clouds to the point that the sun was barely visible. There was also a wind blowing so that the sunshine came and went as the clouds passed overhead. It wasn’t exactly a perfect flying day, but neither was it something that wasn’t going to impede the day’s flying routine. And there was plenty of that going around. Group Captain V. Naidu in charge of flight operations was standing near the tarmac and the main aircraft parking area staring not so much at the clouds, on which he had received the daily weather forecast, as looking at the line up of aircraft on the flight line. A beautiful sight, to be sure, it was also something that told the Group captain about how busy he was going to be today, tomorrow and probably the whole of the coming month.

First on the flight line in front of him was an EW B-737 of the ARC, standing with the front entry door open and connected to a ladder, not too different from those used in civilian airports for passengers, only more austere and painted grey. So was the aircraft. The new low visibility paint scheme had now been applied to the modified B-737s of the ARC as well. Essentially the aircraft were the same ones that had flown with the communications squadron not too long ago, but with the delivery of the new Boeing 737-700 series aircrafts to that squadron, the older aircraft had been resurrected by the ARC to carry all manner of Electronic warfare systems and communication systems including SATCOM and VHF systems to act as nodes in an airborne communications network in case the satellites went down. At the moment however, the aircraft was looking sleek in its overall grey paint and small and somewhat insignificant markings on the tail. Although the engines were switched off, the aircraft collision lights were flashing to tell everyone interested in watching that the aircraft was about to depart in a while.

Next to the B-737 was parked a wonderful mixture of nearly all the variants of the IL-76 aircrafts in Indian service, which included a Phalcon AWACS standing immediately next to the B-737 and also awaiting departure while next to that was one IL-78MKI aircraft whose engines were already spooling up and it would be the first aircraft in this flight line to leave Kalaikunda AFB this morning. Next to that were a couple of IL-76s of the basic transport type whose rear loading ramps were open and loading operations were about to begin, except that the cargo itself had been somewhat delayed and obviously, the officer in charge of loading was one very unhappy man. He was shouting into his intercom to someone over the sound of the engines of the IL-78 tanker nearby. As the Group captain watched, the concerned officer finished talking into the intercom and then silently looked at the sky above, probably cursing the people who had screwed up his timing. Flight operations Centre was already aware of the delay in the arrival of the army cargo to be airlifted to Jorhat in Assam, and had compensated accordingly, but it was gratifying to see younger officers eager to get the job done, even if it meant extreme use of profanities, enough to bring a smile on the Group captain’s face on a very tense morning.

The IL-78 tanker finally began to roll down the tarmac under the instructions of the ground handlers whose hand signals allowed the pilots of the aircraft to move from the main tarmac to the taxiway from where the ATC tower would take over to guide them to the end of the runway for takeoff. When the aircraft finally began to roll forward towards the taxiway, the main handler looking at the aircraft gave it a final thumbs up signal for the pilots benefit and then saluted and walked off as the aircraft continued to the end of the runway taking with it the massive noise from its engines.

Everybody was relieved when the engine noise receded and it was visible on their faces. But they were to be soon disappointed. The IL-78 may have been the first tanker to take off from Kalaikunda this morning, but it wasn’t the first aircraft to leave. Moments later, the walls and windows and the very souls of the crew and pilots on the ground reverberated with the noise from two MIG-21 ‘Bison’ aircrafts as they left the runway at Kalaikunda with full engine reheat to commence their patrol duties further north of the AFB.

Defence alert level three had been activated and the influx of fighters into the EAC meant that several detachments from various squadrons had to share the same airbases, and Kalaikunda was the designated home for a lot of aircrafts in the region, including the MIG-21s. That being said, it didn’t take long for the aircrafts to initially disappear into the clouds hovering over the base only to become visible again, by which time they were visible only as two black specks in a mostly white sky, and then thirty seconds later they were no longer visible. The IL-78MKI was now turning at the end of the runway when the Flight Ops commander noticed another Group Captain walking towards him on the tarmac. His arm patch showed him to be a pilot from the communications squadron, but his looks told him that he was a real professional. He also wore pilot’s wings on top of his green overall that was now standard for Air Force pilots. He was the pilot for the B-737 parked on the tarmac. As a senior Group Captain himself, the captain had been flying B-737s for a long time now, and had more than several thousand hours on the type. He had noticed the Flight operations centre commander watching the aircraft and had walked over after finishing the visual inspection of his own aircraft.

For today the crew for the ARC’s EW B-737 was not an ARC deputed crew, most of who were retired Air Force people anyway. The need of the hour required every available military aircraft to be available to the Air Force at a moment’s notice, and so the EW crew were active personnel as well. The co-pilot and the aircraft Engineer were busy inside the cockpit while they checked all aircraft systems and conducted pre-flight procedures. There was still some time before takeoff.
“What’s going on over there?â€

Posted: 16 Feb 2007 12:09
by nits

Gr8 going... the entire episode of a russian Pilot preventing the Nucelar Disaster was marvelous...

Just some thoughts:-

1) Why Saudi Arabia didnt engaged after it was attacked by Israle and also is Israel not playing any role in attack against pakistan in form of Intillengence or Tactical Support...

2) What abt Role and reaction of Iran, China, NAM and Gulf Countries.... when this WAR has broke out....

Nitin [/list]

Posted: 16 Feb 2007 22:06
by Shankar

Captain Ivanov did not wait to see the end result of his class one aerial shoot out as he at the time was trying to find solutions to several parameters all at once .Firstly he was getting dangerously close to the disintegrating Pakistani mirage even with air brakes deployed and thrust lever at minimum cruise setting. Secondly. the Indian built Tarang radar warning receiver was beeping its shrill warning meaning the escorting mirage /mirages have already got a lock on and about to launch one more heat seekers up his fat tails pipes any time and thirdly he has three of his young inexperienced student pilots in the air who are facing some of the best Pakistani pilots and that too in real combat

Ivanov reacted quickly and decisively ,the hall mark of a good combat pilot with many years of flying under his belt and over many oceans and lands ,from frozen tundra too frigid Barrents sea ,from early days in Afghanistan to the cold war days over germany he has seen all and knew without his help the Indian student pilots face serious danger over unfamiliar oceans and in an ultra modern yet to get familiarized aircraft .As he pulled the stick sharply inwards and nudged it to extreme right to get his aircraft up and away from the flying flaming debris of the exploding mirage ,the flight computer sensed his urgency from the rate of change of the sticks postion to the fast side wards movement .It responded like a well trained Doberman increasing power to max and then adjusting the fuel cross feed to maintain the instaneous stability as the mig 35 in a very sharp climbing bank out exceeded all its design and G limits . But it did not allow the aircraft to stall .As the mig 35 pulled out of immediate danger zone and circle of black started forming around Ivanov’s peripheral vision indicating imminent black out the tarang radar warning receiver went on continuous bleep mode indicating one or more missiles have been launched at his aircraft.

It took Ivanov all his conditioning and training to maintain any semblance of control.The automated self protection mechanism have already activated on command from on board computer and started punching out packets of chaff packets and flares into the slip stream in the exhaust of the looping mig 35 throwing up a false trail for the missiles just launched as the mig continued its banking climb away from the danger zone and then looped back to level flight .Natasha stopped screaming and Ivanov could at last focus on the displays and the the engine control system automatically came out of the reheat zone to conserve fuel as it felt wasting more fuel was no longer necessary at existing threat level. Both the Pakistani missile have lost lock at the sudden sharp climb out and loop and now sailed harmlessly away to distant horizon.

It was Ivanovs turn once again as he spotted the mirage which has fired the two heat seekers at him now diving for cover to the oceans surface –which of course was just not there. As he switched the attack computer to AUTO mode the weapon selection was automatic two of the R-73 missiles armed up in about 7 seconds as their seeker heads quickly got cooled by a flow of cold nitrogen gas and detection sensitivity increased many fold over an un cooled seeker head and the computer checked the targets relative position and speed and decided on launch sequence of the two missiles .The SHOOT prompt came up on the head up display and so did the triangular target symbol super imposed on the mirage trying to loose itself in the frothy wave tops .

Ivanov gently sqeezed the trigger and first of the R-73s leaped of the winf tip rails and sped down after the escaping mirage who by now have realized his doom .The SHOOT prompt came up once again after 9 seconds and Ivanov squeezed the fire button and the second R-73 was on its way to make certain –no escape for the Pakistani mirage who dared add a nuclear threat over the coalition forces

Actually the second of the R-73 was not required as you cannot kill an aircraft twice . The low flying mirage on full afterburner was no match for the supersonic Russian heat seeker with turn capability in excess of 12 g and acknowledged as worlds best close air combat weapon system far better than even the famed sidewinders. The small vanes on exhaust nozzle of the solid motor operated only for a few seconds ,only effective in the powered phase of the flight but that was enough as the sleek missile with its gimbaled seeker head caught on the large temperature gradient existing between the oceans surface and the heat pipe of the desperate mirage and made its selection. Its robotic brain signalle the actuators and the the missile veered of sharply from the dive to surface and took a swift climb out and then followed the mirage all the way to complete destruction. The smoke ball was small as the exploding mirage quickly hit the ocean surface in a shower of salt water spray followed by a geyser of steam .

Ivanov switched clicked on the transmit button and issued first “suggestion “to his student pilots –and they followed without question in best traditions of Indian airforce .There were three of them and there were four mirages still in sky –though by now scared and running for home but still very dangerous with their magic missiles and DEFA cannons.

But the field was now level and the migs had the additional advantage of longer reach of its missiles and and the helmet mounted cueing system and the superbly agile launching platforms (worlds best with the possible exception of raptor maybe) and the young Indian pilots reacted with glee at their first chance of an air to air kill .F/L deshpande was first off the block as he shot of his pair of R-73S and then broke of the engagement letting others get their shot .

It was over in another 2 minutes and the Ivanov with all his favorite Indian students flew back home catching an IL-78MKI some where over the Saurastra coast for a safe landing.

Posted: 17 Feb 2007 03:25
by Hari Sud
I have completely lost the above story.

Why were the Pakistani Mirages with nuclear bombs launched?

What was the provocation?


future scenarios

Posted: 17 Feb 2007 15:26
by vardhank
Could someone look at a fresh scenario, possibly in the 2012-2015 timeline, featuring the Tejas, the new MRCA we're looking for (if inducted by then), and possibly the Arjun MBT? Why not throw in the ATV and/or the Akulas we're supposed to be getting as well? (On that note, is the Akula story true?)

I'm looking for a serious assessment here, against Pakistani and/or Chinese weaponry, not "India takes over the world" fiction. If we're going to get thumped, say so. Loved the story on this thread in the beginning, but it's starting to float off into fever dreams here. Sorry, Shankar.

Also, If YIP and Singha are still around on BR, could one of them take up the story again, possibly from the point just after the tank offensive in Punjab?

And please, PLEASE, get INS Chola in there. I think I'm in love...

Posted: 17 Feb 2007 20:46
by vivek_ahuja
Could someone look at a fresh scenario, possibly in the 2012-2015 timeline,

um, i am not sure you read my posts so far.

I'm looking for a serious assessment here, against Pakistani and/or Chinese weaponry, not "India takes over the world" fiction.

now i really think that you haven't read my posts :(
as for the pakistani side, i think Shankar did a very serious assessment, maybe a little lacking on the operational side (and i mean the strategy and not the tactics), but its all there...
as for "india takes over the world" that's not what we are attempting to do at all...the theme is more like "what if?" and if you consider that much, i think Shankar's posts could not have been more informative. look at the tactics and analysis portrayed in the individual scenarios...its positively brilliant :twisted:

not "India takes over the world" fiction.

now i have to beg you read my posts.
i just started it only a few days ago so it may not have built up to your needs so far, but let the story build itself up man!

the new MRCA we're looking for (if inducted by then), and possibly the Arjun MBT? Why not throw in the ATV and/or the Akulas we're supposed to be getting as well?

a bit of a tall order, but like i said, let the story build up, its all there.
you don't just expect the story to jump from the hunky-dory daily lifestyle to aircombat scenarios between LCA and the chinese J-99 'bullshit'? do you? :-?
a little politics here and a little geography lessons there, mix them all up and pretty soon you start a nice smelling war. :)

If we're going to get thumped, say so.

no arguments there...part of the between the lines stuff in my posts

And please, PLEASE, get INS Chola in there. I think I'm in love...

patience, my boy, patience...

Posted: 17 Feb 2007 20:49
by vivek_ahuja

Lieutenant General Dixit spoke into the phone. Soon thereafter he put down the receiver. Then he spoke to the audience before him.
“Okay, sir, the SATCOM systems are on their way. The SOCOM aircraft carrying them is at present refuelling and is about to depart from Kalikunda AFB, as are the Spyder missile systems on two IL-76s of the Air Force. These particular missiles are the ones belonging to the army and not to the air force as we had discussed earlier.â€

Posted: 17 Feb 2007 22:25
by Sudhanshu
Vivek, I must say your scenario is like live movie... may be it is because you have given more emphasis towards decision making process.

Thanks for sharing it.


Posted: 18 Feb 2007 00:47
by Shankar

Captain Hasmat knew he was fast approaching the point of no return .Once he has committed his ship to launch attack the expeditionary forces escorts ,there would be no respite and he doubted if any coastal air support will be available at the moment. He will have to survive the next 72 hrs on his own against one of the most powerful collective anti sub armada ever assembled in a small piece of ocean . He wanted to confirm one last time that his operating orders were still valid as he started
issuing the orders

- xo I have the con
- aye aye sir –the captain has the con
- plainsman make periscope depth –make climb angle 3 degree-speed 2 knots
- climb angle 3 degree-speed 2 knots –aye sir
- make course 215
- course 215 aye sir

The agosta climbed up slowly in spirals as it very slowly and silently rose checking the area around with passive sonar. So far his Luck has held and that induced in the crew of omara a sense of false security ,which the experienced captain knew can be dangerous. The sub leveled of at 15 ft below the waves and the xo awaited captains instructions.

-raise ESM antenna
The slick stick like ESM antenna quietly raised itself over the wave tops ,quickly searching the surface for any electronic threat and receiving any last minutes instructions from Pakistan naval head quarters thru the Chinese geo synchronous satellite located over the equator

- up periscope – one quick sweep please xo
- aye sir –periscope up

The weather was not as the captain expected . A storm was building up form north west . And the thick overcast did not allow him to make any positive visual identification of his targets even just outside the torpedo range .

-raise UHF antenna
- aye sir UHF antenna raised –ready to transmit
- transmit call sign
-call sign transmitted sir
- no response from satellite sir
-try raising her again
- no response sir

Captain Hasmat knew he was running out of time and luck as he silently cursed the ancient Chinese satellite with possibly run down solar cells unable to receive and authenticate his request for information in time
- o.k xo try her one last time
- aye aye sir the xo responded in a tense voice

This time the satellite responded and the small laser printer started spewing out the latest ops order from naval command .













Captain hasmat looked at the message for few more seconds and then spoke to his xo an energetic young captain

- xo take the con – dive to 250 mtrs –make course 345 –speed 10 knots
- aye sir –xo has the con
- plainsman make depth 250 mtrs –course 345 – make speed 12 knots

And the deadly game of cat and mouse started deep under the oceans surface


- Bridge –sonar unidentified sub surface contact –range 13500 yards – course 165 contact disappearing-request permission to deploy towed array
-sonar –captain – any ident on the sub
-no sir – 2 seeps only –blade count indicates possible agosta class
-stand by sonar –reducing speed to 4 knots
-xo sound battle stations
-aye sir
-please also alert Mysore with a request to dispatch its helo on reported course –right away – and don’t forget to say please
-aye aye sir


Posted: 18 Feb 2007 14:10
by Shankar
need help -can some of you super it guy give me a step by step directionhow to copy a map from saved on my desktop to here -urgent and thks in advance

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 14:38
by krishnan
upload it to image hosting site like, and paste the link here

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 15:31
by Shankar
thanks but I want to post the map inthe scenarios thread where I have marked the relative position of the ships and sub thru auto cad/paint brush

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 15:38
by krishnan

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 20:42
by Hari Sud
Hello Shankar

A reader few days back posted a suggestion that it is better for you to switch from scenarios in the immediate future to scenarios in about 10 years time. He backed up his suggestion that by that time, re-arming of India with e.g. LCA, MIG - 35/F-18/Eurofighter, Smerch, tracked artillery, Scorpenes, Vikramaditya, Stallites etc. will be complete. It will be a new type of warfare.

I agree with reader's suggestion.

I also suggest the same. Could you please switch your scenario building mind to about 10 years hence.

I do not want you to dump everything you have in mind and proceed on new scenarios. Please do continue with the current scenario. Once you are finished with them, then only begin a on newer scenarios.

This time, factor in that year is about 2017; India is $1.7 trillion economy. India at that time is spending $45 Billion on defence. India; China are locked in a supermacy like Cold War in the Indian Ocean Littoral States. Pakistan is a proxy in this affair. All in all, oil is running out in Middle East, hence US has lost intrest in the ME except protecting Israel.

Did I say too much?

Please do pardon me, if you do not like my idea.

Carry on


Hari Sud

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 22:37
by Shankar
Hari - it is too tempting a thought to put in words what India will be in 2020
its position in the world stage ,in terms of technical and military capability,economic development,political equation and amtching it vis a vis us and china

A conflict will become inevitable with us -europe (indian ocean region) where china will be with us or a conflict generated out economic rivalry taking on china over the entire spectrum for once to decide who will dominate the world in 2030 s and beyond

The conflicts will be numbers vs technology with india holding the technology edge not just in weapon systems and platforms but in communication and command systems just like US is today

Pakistan will most likely cease to exist as a matter of concern and polarisation of wolds major powers will be quite diffrent than from what it is today

Russia will become a leading player with a resurgent economy and powerful modern military machine supprted by unmatched resource base

Indian energy security will be more and more self generated not just from nuclear power that will necessarily include advanced fuel cycles like fast breeder and a few third genaration thorium based reactors making it totally independent of so called nuclear suppliers group pressure like today duly supported by alternate renewable energy systems like wind(5000 MW per year is planned ) integrated nuclear power plants producing power as well as fissile material, extensive use of compact nuclear reactors for most of naval propulsion making it independent of limitations of fossil fuel powered ones , an economy growing at 9-9.5 % from 2007 onwards doubling in size by 2015 and doubling again by 2023 and then flattening out at a more developed good economy at 6.5 % toll 2030.

The relationship with Russia is going to have a qualitative change already in the process and joint production of very advanced weapon systems is likely to become more and more common. From hypersonic aircraft to super smart ammo for the guns and aircraft supprted by a constellation of dedicated military sats protected by an independent aero space command whose budget may equal that fo the air force . A lean and mean army with mcro actuated exo skeleton type body armor and operating in small groups with its own air transportation and strike capability.

As the fuel supply dwindles the middle eastern countries will look more and more towards india for technological and food support and sometimes to defy the western powers which will see its domination eroding and will become more and more militarily aggressive .

There will be no longer wars as we know but small intense battles fought all over the world but mostly in the asia pacific rim and indian ocean region ,with india taking sides as dictated with its national strategic objective of the time and not on past but more on future goals

A new breed of leaders will come in to power in a modified electoral system where one person one vote system which only allows conmen to prosper will be replaced with a weighted voting system based on proven qualification and capabilities like employment and wealth generation by any particular individual.

And between 2030 and 2050 india will slowly replace us-europe as the benchmark of advanced knowledge based economy not physical resource based . In this regard our economy will be more like japans and naturally navy will become of prime importance

Carriers will be rouitnely made in batches of 2 or three in a number of shipyards and by 2030 most likely we shall have a 5-7 carrier navy initially used ones from france/uk wbut later on with our own ADS type with nuke prpulsion and its nuke propelled escorts

We may even get them made in Russian shipyards by revitalising thier dead carrier building pro gramme thereby kick starting their military renewal programme .(just like mig 29/sukhoi/amur)

Money solves all problems and so it will for india - we will source the best and integrate in our systems .

Stealth in aircraft and ships will surely come in next 10 years or so but because of cost conventional aircrafts and ships will stay on

The structure of Indian state is also likely to change again something like US in a loose federal structure with only defense finance and external affairs with central govt and all psu will be sold off and run by private concerns of global size

Reliance will get into defense manufacture in a big way along with tatas and larsen and toubro (indications are already there)

It is but a dream -but I believe in that dream and think many of you do so too .

Sorry for the braek in usal narration -which comes out tomorrow

Visualizing India in 25 years is risky but worth the risk

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 23:26
by Hari Sud
Thank you Shankar


Posted: 18 Feb 2007 23:57
by Rahul M
vivek, I think this should have been posted earlier, but better late than never! :wink:

interesting news !![/url]

Posted: 19 Feb 2007 10:15
by vardhank

:D guilty as charged... got thoroughly foxed by shankar's story and skipped right to the end... zero time to read anything right now, but great that you're working on something

Posted: 19 Feb 2007 10:18
by vivek_ahuja

...The Admiral then looked at the Defence Minister and spoke without preamble:
“Sir, the situation at sea in the Bay of Bengal is relatively quiet. However, the quiet nature belies the fact that several major strategic events have already taken place already. The biggest one was the virtual Chinese takeover of the entire Cocos island chain from the Myanmar naval or the Tatmadaw Yay forces within the first twelve hours of combat on the mainland. In addition, gunfights on several naval bases on the coast in the Bay of Bengal left the major surface vessels of the TY, tiny by our standards but major for them anyway, burning or damaged and still tied to port while the various parties in the conflict fought each other for control."

"Now, if you look at the second map, you can see that the islands under Chinese control lie between us at the Andaman and Nicobar Islands and the main naval bases of the TY on the mainland. As a result of this, our surveillance of the situation from aerial platforms is limited. We have deployed the long-range maritime reconnaissance TU-142s from Arakonnam Naval air station to fly east and above the Cocos Islands to take a closer look at what is happening with the TY. In addition to electronic surveillance of their naval vessels, these aircraft are also tracking their communications due to the recent upgrade we carried out. In any case, these birds have extremely long legs, as you are probably aware. Therefore they can stay at patrol for much longer times. With in-flight refuelling from the Air Force’s IL-78MKI platforms, this increases further, but the crew becomes tired during these ultra long duration missions and so does their working efficiency, not to mention the extra dependency on the Air Force tankers that become mandatory."

"Therefore, we are not going by this method and are essentially rotating these aircrafts so that the crews can rest before each mission. Ideally I would have deployed some Heron UAV platforms from the Andaman Islands, but the Chinese occupation of the Great Cocos islands stops me from doing that. This, sir, is not a good development. Those islands that the Chinese took over are not theirs to take. Nor, we believe, did they have permission from any Myanmar based authority, rebel or loyalist. They simply noticed the infighting within the TY and took the opportunity to take over these islands. We should technically take them back, given that we now back the loyalists, but the reaction in Beijing may not be so understanding I think. And that sir, is a decision I would like you to take today. We can take them back, if we act now, that is. Granted that they are not very big islands to make much difference on our dominance in the region, the Chinese actions are none the less the kind of stuff that we should expect from now on in the region, and something we could have done without…â€

Posted: 19 Feb 2007 10:50
by vivek_ahuja
vivek, I think this should have been posted earlier, but better late than never!

interesting news !!

Oh great!!! :!:
you know, i had thought that there would be somethings in my storyline that would be overtaken by new real-life events, but i never really thought that they would go out and change their whole damned capital!!! :shock:
now, i have to edit the story somewhat... :evil:
i suppose that's the risk in these kind of scenarios, isn't?
other than that its good to see the GOI looking to build strategic partnerships with myanmar. i wouldn't like to see my story coming true to the extent to which i have portrayed as possible...
nice to see the GOI taking the proper steps.

anyway, thanks for the news,
appreciate it.

P.S. what kind of a name is Nay Pyi Taw for a capital? :?:

Posted: 19 Feb 2007 18:19
by Hari Sud
Vivek Ahuja

Good story line, but too long a post. I was lost in the verbage as paragraphs seemed longer than needed.

Strip some of the excess fat in the verbage and you have a good story line.

Hari Sud


Posted: 19 Feb 2007 18:58
by ksmahesh
Wonderful scenario B). please keep it up. Do not let your natural flow be disturbed. Please ensure that Burmese kick chini @$$ nicely (with our help ofcourse). Is it possible that Bangaladesh also comes over to our camp after realising the paper dragon's definite loss:?:

Hari, his posts are long ang seemingly carry excess verbage because
1. scenario is developing so a lot explaining need be done.
2. In his posts we are direct witness vis a vis shankar where we are indirect.

Posted: 19 Feb 2007 21:27
by Sudhanshu
I would like to request everyone while posting your view please be careful not to make any negative comments against Shankar (by unkowingly). Shankar writing line is different, he is maverick in his own field and his work is not comparable.


Posted: 22 Feb 2007 15:22
by Shankar

Captain Hasmat central integrated tactical display once again. So far no hostile subs have been detected on the passive sonar and he definitely did not intend going active till he was in range and then just three pings to confirm the firing solution before he ordered the launch of three torpedoes at the American cruiser , Still he has not ordered use of battery power and the Agosta slowly drifted on an intercept course testing the nerve of everyone on board Omara.

The us cruiser have slowed down ,possibly deploying its towed array passive sonar for an attempt to track omara ,which means they are now aware of omara but not yet sure where she exactly is .This of curse meant he did not have much time to set up an attack ,but still omara was about 5000 yards short of torpedo launch zone . He planned on launching 3 straight running torpedoes with fire spread of 7 degree and then use the battery power for a quick escape to the confusing thermo clines and salinity levels of Indus delta .

He knew the us cruiser will be using its variable depth towed array sonar to detect him quickly even though he was below two thermo clines ,but he also knew it would take time .The billion dollar question at the moment was who can use the limited commodity called time and fire the weapons first .

Like all good submarine commanders captain Hasmat was an avid reader of naval history and that naturally included the Falklands conflict when royal navy nuclear powered submarine conqueror sunk Argentinean cruiser general Belagrano using just two heavy torpedos.

The Argentinean battle cruiser General Belgrano carrying a crew of 1000 plus and armed with both exocet and sea cat missiles was torpedoed and sunk by British nuclear powered submarine Conqueror about 30 miles south of maritime exclusion zone .It was estimated about 386 Argentinean navy personnel was killed. According to british ministry of defense statement general Belgarno by two high explosive torpedoes as she was near the battle area. At the time of attack she was escorted by two destroyers all of whom were armed with exocet anti ship missiles and thus posed a serious threat to royal navy.

The general Belgrano at 13645 tons was at that time argentines second largest warship and was purchased from us navy in 1951 after having survived the Pearl Harbor attack of 1941 .

In the early phase of Falklands war in 1982 much of the Argentinean navy including general belgrano had left the Ushuaia in Tiera del Fuego along with Piedra Buena (D-29)
And the Bouchard(D-26) were patrolling the Burdwood bank and was tracked by the british nuclear submarine conqueror .Though at the point of attack it was outside the declared maritime exclusion zone ,the british at cabinet level approved the attack on Belgrano.

On 15.57 ,may 2 conqueror fire three conventional mark 8 mod 4 torpedoes with torpex warhead two of which hit Belgrano.One of the torpedoes stuck between 10-15 mtrs away from the bow but was not very effective . Either the ships anti torpedo armor or the anti torpedo bulge effectively contained the explosion .As a result the internal bulk heads did not give in and the 40 mm forward powder magazine did not explode. The second torpedo however sealed the fate of general belgrano.entering at the outer limit of side armor protection it punched a hole thru the hull before exploding in the aft machine room.The explosion tore thru the two messes and relaxation area called soda fountain and finally managed to rip open a 20ft hole in the main deck. Strangely there was no fire after the explosion but the ship rapidly filled with smoke from the explosive warheads. The second explosion also damaged the ships electrical system preventing her from calling in assistance .Though the forward bulkhead door were holding the water coming in thru the second torpedo created hole could not be pumped out because of total power failure .The ship began to list to port and then started sinking towards bow ,about 20 min after the attack.

The two accompanying ships were not even aware of the Belgranos fate as they were out of visual contact due to bad weather and the fog made it impossible to see even the distress rockets and lamp signals from belgrano.Adding to the confusion the crew of Bouchard possibly heard the third torpedo striking at the end of its run and so started dropping depth charges at various depths By the time Buena and Bouchard realized some thing was wrong with belgrano –it was too late .

Posted: 23 Feb 2007 02:56
by vivek_ahuja

The drive over from Army Headquarters to the Prime Minister’s Office allowed one to see a lot of the old colonial era monuments that bear testament to the once powerful British Empire. At eight in the morning the traffic was only now staring to pick up. Soon it would become heavy and impassable and had he left the meeting any later, he would have been probably taken by helicopter to the PMO. At this time however, the traffic was less, the views unobstructed and the morning mist just beginning to clear as the sun made its presence felt. It was still cold however, and the jacket worn by the defence minister offered a mere token resistance to the cold. The cold, however, kept him awake. At any rate, not having slept for some time now was taking its toll on the defence minister. In addition, the burden placed on his shoulders by a country that depended on him for their national security was beginning to show around the tired eyes.

He rubbed them and again stared out the window as his motorcade went swiftly through New Delhi’s roads, taking advantage of the emptiness on the streets. It must be colder still in the north, the Def-Min thought, maybe more in Beijing…His thoughts came back to him. Suddenly the view outside became a blur for the defence minister as he recollected his thoughts.
You b*******…so, you thought you could surround us…you thought we will sit on our hands and wait, didn’t you? You thought we would sit on our Asses and wait while you surround us…well…guess what… you thought wrong. We are going to kick your Asses back to Beijing and beyond. This isn’t 1962. We don’t have fools leading our country this time. This is our chance and you just gave it to us on a silver plate…Premier Wang, I hope you like it when I shove a Agni missile up your…

“Sir, we are here. We have arrived.â€