Possible Indian Military Scenarios - Part VIII

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 29 Apr 2007 18:56

I must say that I didn't hope to see so much discussion on an issue that i had dealt with in the beginning of the scenario.

Hari Sir and Ajay sir, i have already established the relationship between the PM and the DEF-Min during the absolute starting of this scenario. Check some of the posts in the links below for those.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2857

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &&start=40

at the same time, i am fully aware of the requirements of issuing such orders. i had tried to avoid clustering the post with such details at all levels, otherwise it will look like a beaurocratic report. Please give me a little credit for brains and thinking. you think i would have NOT thought of this important point while writing?

Technical mistakes can always creep in, and there is no defending there, but things like the above should be taken in stride of the writing with the assumption that the writer has given it some thought. if I start writing the political details with an intensity as the above suggests, how will the post remain fast moving and tense? it will turn into a series of reports. No emotion, no tentativeness, no individuality and no personalities of the characters. It will be a dull collection of third person narratives on a strategic evaluation of a threat.

you can write a fast moving scenario in two ways: a political book with little focus on the technicalities of military systems, or a military book with relatively less focus on the politics. its difficult to have intense details on everything, in my opinion at least.

Coming to a technical issue in the above discussions, please note the following:

a) PIVOT-HAMMER was approved along with PIVOT-STRIKE but the technical details of the strike have been changed after the aborted Chinese bomber attack on Delhi. The defense minister simply thinks its time now to initiate that particular op after multiple delays due to the air war in NE.

b) PIVOT-STRIKE was a diversionary air attack. PIVOT-HAMMER was retaliation for the bomber attacks and is now modified into a diversionary attack due to the desperate situation in the NE.

c) Both PIVOT-STRIKE and PIVOT-HAMMER are air operations. No land invasions are planned. The Indian army isn't exactly insane.

d) All these air ops are Tactical. Nothing more

e) Political backing is achieved. After the politicians were nearly forced to evacuate Delhi holding their lungees during the Chinese bomber attack, what would you expect? Think they will still ask for reducing escalation? Or will they gather their wits and ask the IAF to bomb the Chinese back to the Stone Age? I think after that scare all IAF TACTICAL ops might be rubber-stamped straight away.

You be the judge.

Vivek Ahuja

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Postby Sudhanshu » 29 Apr 2007 21:03

...Why is everybody running to defend Vivek? ...


I think, everybody is protecting instead of defending from unwanted question

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Postby Hari Sud » 29 Apr 2007 22:07

Vivek

You are doing a very good job.

Sadhanshu - stay out of it.

Again Vivek, back to your reply.

Here is what normally should have happened. When Delhi became target of Chinese bombers, within minutes the PM, the President, the Cabinet, important officials, immediately go to the underground command bunker. They stay there during the crisis.

When the Chinese strike in the east is in progress, the bunker has all the decision making people. The Defence Minister may be present at the army/airforce beriefing but the PM and the President are also nearby or in the command presentation. (This is how the crisis in 2001 was handled with Pakistan).

I will give you benefit of doubt that Defence Minister was already in touch with the PM.

When the overall plan is approved including the Pivot Hammer, it is not a blanket permission to start a major offensive including hitting deep in Tibet (Tibet is China and India has grudgingly accepted it). Unless it is a declared war like WWII, response in always measured and proportional to enemy's attack. It appears from your scenario that Chinese attack in the east has fizzled out, hence time to hit back a bit deeper a bit more aggressive and again with due thought about future Chinese response.

Hence, Vivek, you have to bring the PM and President into the picture. The Defence Minister in not the chief executive. The Prime Minister is the Chief Executive and he is ultimately responsible for all actions good or bad. Blanket approval does not work where lives, national welfare and further escalation could result in a catastroph.


Cheers


Hari Sud

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Postby ksmahesh » 29 Apr 2007 22:19

I am of the firm opinion that apart from technical glitches one should try least to distract writer from his primary task. Hari, you are being unfair by asking Sudhanshu for staying out of discussion. :twisted:

As Vivek clarified PM had GIVEN permission to attack chini targets AND the attack in Tibet is TACTICAL onlee so a second permission is not required. :evil: :evil:

I also suggest to the rest that if Hari persist with this obstinate argument then we may stop responding to hs posts as Joy had pointed out. It only clutters the space and delays scenario posting.
:x :x :x

Infact Hari if you are so concerned then perhaps you should contact Vivek and try to write the political development in Delhi.

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Postby Sudhanshu » 30 Apr 2007 00:00

..Infact Hari if you are so concerned then perhaps you should contact Vivek and try to write the political development in Delhi...


Not a bad idea at all.

Not just Hari, I think, if Shankar can contact vivek to write some element of army or navy with control of Vivek over the final result (of battle), that would be great... er.. superb.

BTW, if I am not wrong during Falkland war, the sinking of Argentian's cruiser (which killed around 300 sailors) by Royal Navy was done solely decision made by MOD. Because in the interview given afterward in which the PM (Magret thacher) was criticized. She told that though she supports the decision and she don't like to look into peigon hole of MOD. {Just an analogy, nothing to do with India directly}

It is unfortunate that some people are doing every bit.. to change the name of this thread from "Possible Indian military scenario" to "Possible Indian political scenario"


P.S :) Why everybody spells my name incorrectly.. Hari it is "Sudhanshu" not "Sadhanshu". Americans here already distort my name, at least I dont expect from you guys. AND my comments were not personal.

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Great Stuff

Postby SGupta » 30 Apr 2007 01:11

Vivek,

Truly enjoying your writing and posts. Good job :-). Eagerly awaiting the next write up.

Regards,
Sanjay

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Bala keep wriitng ....

Postby SGupta » 30 Apr 2007 01:12

Bala,

Keep writing, you are doing just fine as well.

Regards,
Sanjay

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Postby Sudhanshu » 30 Apr 2007 05:33

I have got an idea... (perhaps that is what some ppl trying to say):
After firing 1 or 2 missiles the pilots should directly consult PMO and other relevant offices, whether to fire rest of missiles (if that imply a major offensive). :)

I don't think there is anything left to put strain on conventional use of weapons in situation where the national capital Delhi was under clear Chinese threat.

Moreover, after attack on major AFBs I don't think why Defense minister won't have full authorization to authorize such actions.

By the way, Vivek we are waiting for today's post.

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Postby niran » 30 Apr 2007 08:23

Gentlemen,
please,cool down, see all our haggling waggling has delayed the next post.

Vivek Sir, please do not take it personally. tis, human nature to talk and express their views. Me not saying me always right,or agree with others always.Please Please do not delay your next part.Sir, or else you will find a whole lot more discussion,debate, waggling, haggling, bragging, etc.etc. see Sir leave an intelligent brain waiting, too long and you will get the same situation.

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Postby niran » 30 Apr 2007 18:40

it has been more than 12 hrs. without a single post.Please hurry, we be waiting thee with teary eyes and raging ulcer.


Dear Bala_r Sir,
may me suggest a point.
to be a writer you have to develop a thick skin. see Sir to write you have to have a talent ( which few have) to poke holes is easy,needs lesser kilowatts, talent wise. So Sir do post your scenarios and let the readers
make suggestion correction as the case may be.

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Postby Bala_R » 30 Apr 2007 19:06

CHINESE CARRIER FORCE
600 KM SOUTH EAST OF SRI LANKA
22:30 HRS, THURSDAY


Chinese carrier force commander was getting restless as he was waiting for the instructions & go ahead for Operation Red Panda to commence. If he had to wait too long, there were chances that the carrier force location would be found out & Operation Red Panda would be jeopardized. He had been lucky enough not to be spotted till now after being at almost the same position for 3 days.

30 Su-33’s were already loaded & ready for the mission. 5 more were on standby. 18 Su-33’s were loaded with 2 Kh-59, 4 free fall bombs & 2 SD-10’s. 2 Su-33’s were loaded with 4 runway denial bombs & 2 SD-10’s, 10 Su-33’s were in full air-to-air configuration fully loaded with SD-10s & R73s. The 2 Su-33’s on cap were running low on fuel & were about to return, while 2 out of 10 Su-33’s in air-to-air configuration were ready to take-off. Two air-to-air configured Su-33’s in each group had external jamming pods.


Chinese Commander’s Meeting, Beijing
Chinese commanders were angry at the way IAF had decimated more than half of their bomber fleet. They wanted to take revenge & teach India a lesson. They had taken a decision to hurt India, where it matters most, economically. This was an important decision & if executed correctly, it could set India back a few years in its advanced scientific research. There was not much to think about Operation Red Panda, they were very confident of the success, even if they had to lose an aircraft carrier (chances of which were slim), it would be significant victory for Chinese. They all concluded on the final plan & agreed for the execution of Operation Red Panda.


CHINESE CARRIER TASK FORCE
600 KM SOUTH EAST OF SRI LANKA
22:45 HRS, THURSDAY


The secured communication link came alive & the Carrier force commander got the Go ahead for Operation Red Panda. Tension in his face waded & a smile appeared in his face. This was the moment he was waiting for. He immediately gave the order for the Task force to be in full alert status, with everyone on station. Operation Red Panda had started.

First to take-off was the two Su-33’s in air-to-air configuration so as to allow the su-33’s in cap to land. Now one by one both the Su-33’s made a perfect landing. Immediately they were pulled out of the runway & away to the parking lot, making way for the rest of the Su-33’s to take off. One by one all the remaining 28 Su-33’s took off. Soon they split themselves in 4 groups each consisting of 2 air-to-air configured Su-33’s along with 5 air-to-ground Su-33’s. Only the Second & Fourth group had one Su-33 each carrying runway denial bombs. Each group formed an arrow formation with the air-to-air Su-33’s at the fore-front. Targets to all these four groups were different. India was about to learn a great mistake in its defence planning.


After the 30 Su-33’s took to the skies, the remaining 5 Su-33’s were loaded with 4 SD-10 each, 2 R73’s & 2 Laser guided bombs each. Now the main worry of the commander was to plan his way back & how to tackle whatever the Andaman naval command will throw at his carrier force once they come to know about the devastation that the Chinese navy was about to inflict. As per the intelligence report & from the report of eavesdropping team, it was estimated that there were 4 to 6 Su-30MKI at Port Blair as well as 2 Bears, which were the only aerial threat to the carrier force. The naval force was however nothing much to worry about. Even though having only 7 Su-33’s for the carrier was risky, Chinese knew that they will catch the Indians napping & hence were ready to take such a huge risk.

As planned the carrier group slowly turned east ward & started their way back to their homeland. Here time was essence, since they wanted to reach for safe waters before India sent additional force to counter the carrier group. The Su-33’s will join her back after executing Operation Red Panda. Task Force commander was now deciding on ways & means to counter the possible counter strike by IN & the small IAF prescence at Andaman.

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Postby ksmahesh » 30 Apr 2007 20:34

Chini trying to do a pearl harbour repeat.....................
We will sink the chinki fleet by BRAHMOS. They will not leave Indian waters as Japs did from pearl harbour. Bala, please bring SLCM - Brahmos, Ship launched - Brahmos and air launched - Brahmos to overwhelm chini carrier defences.........

my 2 paisa.

Where is Vivek?....................Paging....rather Satellite mapping/searching for Vivek.............

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Postby Devendra » 30 Apr 2007 21:32

Vivek


We are waiting for your next post.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 30 Apr 2007 22:42

3 TACTICAL AIR CENTRE (TAC)
NORTHEASTERN TIP OF INDIA
2005 HRS THURSDAY


The battle for Chabua was now reaching a climax. There were ten Chinese SU-30MKKs flying around. Four for top fighter cover and six armed with air to ground weapons. Unlike Sukerating, however, the radars at Chabua had proven tricky to locate. The Indian radar teams had gotten more intelligence about the Chinese anti-radar capabilities during the raid on Sukerating. All radars were on standby mode. The only radar tracking was the 3D-CAR at the base itself. It had all the range it needed to detect the Chinese. The Chinese didn’t have the space to evade. It was just that simple. Now the problem for them was that their ARMs were ready to be launch, but they didn’t know anything about the locations of the Indian SAM radars at the base. Neither did they know where the Akash systems had been dispersed.

That had gone against them. The Indian ADGES support around Chabua had been cunningly located. There were three Akash Batteries around the region. All of them hidden and dispersed in trees and the local vegetation. All of them had their radars on standby, and all of them were located in a circle around the central 3D-CAR. The Chinese couldn’t get to that radar without crossing the coverage of at least one of the batteries, and all of the battery commanders were fully aware of the Chinese aircraft locations as they took the feed from the 3D-CAR. And all of them had a smile on their faces. The Chinese didn’t know what to do.

Furthermore, since they didn’t know where the hidden batteries were, they were also not aware of the point in space where they might blunder into the range of one of the battery’s launchers. It had been for this reason that they had got so many bombers with them. They had expected losses. But due to the Indian Mig-21s who had killed eleven of their number before they had even reached their targets, they were now short on numbers. Being short on numbers was one concept that was unknown to the Chinese mission commander, and he had difficulty adapting himself to it. Then he made his first decision.

He ordered two of his four escorts to head directly to the Chabua base. This was meant to tickle the Indian defences. If the Indian battery commander lighted up his radar to shoot down the intruders, he would be detected and the Chinese would then pounce on his battery radar. That would open the way into Chabua. The only mistake made by the Chinese was altitude. Their four fighter escorts were flying above them, and were visible on Indian radar as such.

The Indian Group Commander had already determined them as escorts and thus not dangerous even if they came directly above the base. There was no need to light up the battery radars for such targets, and the two Chinese pilots who were expecting to be blown out of the sky continued to fly in the night sky all the way over the hills with their threat boards clear, except for the 3D-CAR and the THD-1955 to the south. The Chinese mission commander realised this mistake and let out a curse at himself for not thinking about it earlier. Then he ordered the two SU-30MKKs to return back to formation. The first attempt to bait the Indian defences had failed.

While the two escort SU-30MKKs were returning to formation, the other two flying over the bomber formations suddenly detected two inbound threats coming from the northwest directly towards them. These were the two surviving Indian Mig-21 Bisons out of the four that had supported the Jorhat force during the earlier battles with the SU-27s. The Chinese delay in evaluating and attacking the defences at Chabua had allowed these two fighters to dash back. They were now coming in at medium altitude and at very high speeds in a tight pair, side by side.

They had detected their targets too, after the THD-1955 at Jorhat had continued to direct them in the proper azimuth for an engagement. The two Indian pilots had heard of the fate of their squadron comrades east of Chabua. And in front of them on radar were the culprits. They had three R-77s hanging under their wings, having expended one each during their short battle with the SU-27s. Now they had the intention to use all of these.

The Chinese SU-30MKKs dipped their wings a little and dropped a little low as they moved into position to engage the Indian Mig-21s at a proper azimuth. The Indians were to their northwest, having been directed there by the Indian air defence commander for 3 TAC. The Chinese had no idea of this, and they could have known in any case, but they had been just outside the range of the northernmost Akash battery. Once they moved to their sides to evade the R-77s, they would enter the kill zone of that battery, and the Indian systems were already using the data from the 3D-CAR to ensure that they had most of the necessary launching information beforehand.

The Akash launchers were already oriented along the threat axis and thus facing north and their deadly pointed tips were facing into the black night sky, waiting...

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Postby Sudhanshu » 30 Apr 2007 23:06

....The two Indian pilots had heard of the fate of their squadron comrades east of Chabua. And in front of them on radar were the culprits. They had three R-77s hanging under their wings, having expended one each during their short battle with the SU-27s. Now they had the intention to use all of these....


Welcome back Vivek. I always knew, you like constructive criticisms.

That was really hair raising part... that make fight a bit personal... cool writing... I felt like I am there watching all this, myself.

If I am not wrong, these are two same pilots who earlier engaged Chinese in a gorilla style fight?
Last edited by Sudhanshu on 01 May 2007 01:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby sunilUpa » 30 Apr 2007 23:17

Good show Vivek. I have run out of nails (to bite) now looking at nails of SHQ.. :shock:

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Postby ksmahesh » 30 Apr 2007 23:48

Great Vivek.... Please post soon the next..........My BP is 180-240

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Postby joy_roy » 01 May 2007 00:29

sunilUpa wrote:Good show Vivek. I have run out of nails (to bite) now looking at nails of SHQ.. :shock:


may your soul rest in peace..... :mrgreen:

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Postby rkhanna » 01 May 2007 01:16

If I am not wrong, these are two same piolets who earlier engaged chinese in a gurreilla style fight?



Errr lol which one would that be. ? :roll:

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Postby Sudhanshu » 01 May 2007 01:53

Hi rkhanna,

I am talking about the pilots in the following excerpt:

vivek_ahuja wrote:....By the time the Chinese pilot and WSO heard the mad screeching of the RWR it was too late. There were bandits in the rear port quarter of the sky and already a missile was in the air. The Chinese pilot increased power and attempted to dive down but he wasn’t fast enough. A R-73 slammed into the rear port side and then a white flash of fire consumed their aircraft. The burning wreckage tumbled downwards, trailing massive flames as jet fuel continued to burn. The two Mig-21s of the Chabua force that had escaped south after engaging these SU-30MKKs had returned. .......

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Postby rkhanna » 01 May 2007 02:38

A R-73 slammed into the rear port side and then a white flash of fire consumed their aircraft. The burning wreckage tumbled downwards, trailing massive flames as jet fuel continued to burn. The two Mig-21s of the Chabua force that had escaped south after engaging these SU-30MKKs had returned. .......


well these migs were Engaging with R-73s.. Probably because they have exhausted their R-77s.


The new Migs in Question have R-77s. So i doubt they would be the same. Vivek hasnt mentioned any reloading has he ?

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Postby samuel » 01 May 2007 03:08

duplicate post.
Last edited by samuel on 01 May 2007 03:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby samuel » 01 May 2007 03:08

rkhanna wrote:
A R-73 slammed into the rear port side and then a white flash of fire consumed their aircraft. The burning wreckage tumbled downwards, trailing massive flames as jet fuel continued to burn. The two Mig-21s of the Chabua force that had escaped south after engaging these SU-30MKKs had returned. .......


well these migs were Engaging with R-73s.. Probably because they have exhausted their R-77s.


The new Migs in Question have R-77s. So i doubt they would be the same. Vivek hasnt mentioned any reloading has he ?


The two migs that survived the su-27s (from chabua) returned for the battle at Sukerating(sic). They blew the Su-30 escorts away and are being pursued by the remaining su-30s, who aborted their bombing run.

These two migs in question are, I think, from the remanants of the Jorhat force. As I recall, there were a few that made it back, e.g. one accompanying a stitched up mig, and others ( "barely 5 were now flying...they became combat ineffective to come to the aid of Chabua...").
So what happened is they (Jorhat force remnants) landed, rearmed, refueled, and went back in the game. They flew straight north probably, low, and were thence turned into the theater approaching the oncoming force from the northwest. We've seen this out-flanking tactic before. The original flight commander from Chabua went out ESE, only to turn back and catch the incoming force of Su30mkk's on its southern flank. The two that remained from that fight took off again, possibly to some other base, returning again, low. We see the same happen here again. This tactic makes sense considering the numbers we are looking at. What else can they do but to stalk, then bait or pounce?

I am hoping these two Migs don't fire a shot, but just draw the SU30s right in the battery range. Then the su-30s get hammered, they turn their attention on the battery, at which time the migs pounce on the flanks, and drag them out on a chace, into another zone perhaps... do this, hopefully till some relief appears, or the maximum possible damage has been inflicted...but I am guessing!

At any rate, I am not sure I know what will happen to the two from Chabua, but these are from Jorhat, vectored around by 3-TAC to check mate the squad attacking Chabua, such as it were. Please correct...
Last edited by samuel on 01 May 2007 03:43, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby ShibaPJ » 01 May 2007 03:14

Vivek,
Awesome as always.. I would say, you have raised the bar substantially.

Their four fighter escorts were flying above them, and were visible on Indian radar as such... The Indian Group Commander had already determined them as escorts and thus not dangerous even if they came directly above the base.

How do you identify on a radar if an attacker is an escort or a bomber? Is it only based on the flying altitude? What happens, if both escorts & bombers follow the same altitude to confuse the radar reading (assuming bombers can carry out stand-off or high-altitude bombing)?

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Postby Sudhanshu » 01 May 2007 04:03

Oh I c.

Thanks for the explaination samuel.

I am curious to know the faith of the other two Migs. Just hoping Vivek might bring them back in picture in the forthcoming posts.

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Postby disha » 01 May 2007 04:21

ShibaPJ wrote:How do you identify on a radar if an attacker is an escort or a bomber? Is it only based on the flying altitude? What happens, if both escorts & bombers follow the same altitude to confuse the radar reading (assuming bombers can carry out stand-off or high-altitude bombing)?


I think Vivek had already mentioned it earlier. The escorts were flying at least 2000 feet higher than the bombers. Further, the bombers flew a steady straight path while the escorts moved around a lot. This tactical blunder by the bandits gave away their flight profile.

If the bandits had flown as you have suggested, it would be different. At the same time, flying too high an altitude would have given them away in advance!

The way Vivek's posts are shaping out to be, it looks like the tactical blunder made by the Pakis at the Longewala where their langoti came down.

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Postby ShibaPJ » 01 May 2007 06:44

Disha,
Thanks for the clarification.. However, we prob can not expect the enemy to give away such vital info during pre-bombing flight, when all the aircrafts are of the same type & have same RCS profile. After all, what stops them to have them fly at the same altitide and let the bombers dive for the bombing operation? That would help them maintain some secrecy at least. Or may be I missed something else.. Anyone can clarify?

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Postby niran » 01 May 2007 07:21

Gentlemen & Ladies,
Methink some correstions are in order.according to the doctrine, ac assigned with SEAD mission always fly and attack ahead of the main body
of attacking aircraft.
ac tasked with TOP COVER duty also fly ahead of bombers usually at the same height, bombers are followed by a BD plane.

The formation used here (TOP COVER flying 2000 Feet above) were used by RAF during World War 2, long discarded, due to varius development.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 01 May 2007 08:30

Ajay sir,

You should not compare this mission to a SEAD mission as such. It’s a combination of this plus the bombing mission, and an air superiority mission all combined. The SU-30s capabilities very much allows this to happen.
Now, the altitude problem is explained as such:

ac tasked with TOP COVER duty also fly ahead of bombers usually at the same height, bombers are followed by a BD plane.


This works so long as your mission profile is shallow on penetration and there are other forces to protect your flanks. This is not the case here. The SU-30MKKs are deep inside India, and there are no flanking forces. It’s a concentrated attack. So, if according to your theory, if some enemy is guided into the rear hemisphere by a air defense radar that is yet to be knocked out, the aircrafts flying in front of the formation armed with air-to-air will have to increase altitude, then change azimuth and meet the enemy or take a wide big horizontal arc around the bomber force to get head to head with the enemy. That takes time.

Now consider the top-cover aircraft like the spokes of an umbrella. They are above you, and so can see further (remember the hilly terrain), and help coordinate things. Since they are also the spokes above you, they don’t have to worry about hitting anybody when they take swift radical maneuvers to meet the enemy along any azimuth. The bombers below them, meanwhile continue on to their targets unhindered by this activity. It also allows you to concentrate your fighters in a big group rather than have them spread around in the horizontal plane around the bombers.

It may be the age of digital warfare, but you still need to be able to respond quickly to emerging threats. And the best way to do that is to follow this guy holding an umbrella concept.

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Postby Sudhanshu » 01 May 2007 08:45

I learned a lot here, which I would never like to learn by reading boring thick reports or papers.

I would say.. GOI should make this thread as mandatory reading list for the all the trainee defense personals.

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Postby niran » 01 May 2007 09:01

Point taken Sir. And your next post Sir.

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Postby Rahul M » 01 May 2007 22:35

Hi vivek, was away for the weekend and hence the belated reply.

Look, guys, just hang in there, all right? Wait for the scenario to conclude before making evaluations. You might just be surprised… :wink:


plz don't misunderstand me, I'm not evaluating anything prematurely here. just what I felt was unbelievably small # of a/c put in the air by the IAF.
if I'm not wrong, these are the total no of IAF fighters in the air :

there were 8 mki 's + another 4 escort mki 's + another 8 mki 's coming from somewhere (? or are they ?)
and then 12 + 12 + 4 bisons. and before there were 4 jaguars and 4 mirages and that's about it.

don't you think 48 fighters flying of all type concerned in defence of the nation
is too less ??

out of : ~ 100 su-30mki + (~) 200 bisons + 50 mig-29 + 50 mirages = 400 fighters ??


Surely by the 2007-12, we will have the numbers as Rahul_M suggests, but there is also a thousand kilometer frontier to defend. Not to mention Pakistan also. If you do the calculations yourself, including the small Indian tanker fleet, and human factors like crew fatigue, you will see the kind of dispersion this entails. I did this during my planning for the war scenario, and I have to say, I have portrayed the capabilities of both sides on the basis of those calculations. See the numbers yourself if you want…I can put these up.


that even now takes some convincing to do. if you ever get time w/o compromising time for your scenario, I would still love to have those figures !! :)

vivek, let me reiterate, your scenario is excellent, and I would go as far as to say, that other than Dileep, nobody has written this good a scenario on BRF !!

(now, that's called praise !!) :P

buddy, don't need to respond if you don't have time :wink:

your scenario comes first !

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Postby rkhanna » 02 May 2007 00:19

Now consider the top-cover aircraft like the spokes of an umbrella. They are above you, and so can see further (remember the hilly terrain), and help coordinate things. Since they are also the spokes above you, they don’t have to worry about hitting anybody when they take swift radical maneuvers to meet the enemy along any azimuth. The bombers below them, meanwhile continue on to their targets unhindered by this activity. It also allows you to concentrate your fighters in a big group rather than have them spread around in the horizontal plane around the bombers.


good points.. Guess that is why it is called "Top Cover"..

The Indian AF does have a habit of embedding Escorts with their Strike Packages . Which suprised the Americans during CopeIndia 04. So i would presume that what you have discribed is a very logical and credible tactic.

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Postby disha » 03 May 2007 01:41

Looks like Vivek sar has been kidnapped ... Where is the next installment?

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Postby member_10646 » 03 May 2007 03:27

samuel wrote:At any rate, I am not sure I know what will happen to the two from Chabua, but these are from Jorhat, vectored around by 3-TAC to check mate the squad attacking Chabua, such as it were. Please correct...


I think these two are from the Chabua force. These were the part of the four flights that were sent to help the Jorhat force in handling the SU-27 eastern barrier force. These four engaged the three SU-27 with thier R-77. After they blotted one Su-27 and forced the other two to run away they returned to defend their homebase. I don't think they are rearmed.

These are the experts from Vivek's post:
"two Chabua based Mig-21s turned by 180 degrees and headed back east to defend their home base from annihilation. In addition to the twelve aircraft about to engage the Chinese SU-30MKK force, these were now the only two aircrafts able to come as reinforcements as against the required frantic calls for the entire Jorhat based force to come and assist.
"

The two Mig 21 that did the hit and run attack in the battle of Sukerating are the two surviving ones from the group of 12 that attacked the SU-30MKK's.

-Gopal

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Postby rkhanna » 03 May 2007 14:22

Vivek. Going AWOL is a court martial offense :evil:

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Postby niran » 03 May 2007 15:37

May be Vivek Sir is suffering writers block.need any help? we might be able to suggest something.


Bala_r, Sir you too have been very late and irregular on your posts.

Sir its very unfair. first our esteemed authurs get us addicted to their writings,then suddenly stops. this will have severe consequences on your followers. Convulsions, acute mood swings, acute depression, suicidal attacks, etc etc. hurry up Sir we are waiting.

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Postby nikhil_p » 03 May 2007 16:10

Hi Vivek, Shankar, Bala
Please post as early as possible. I am recuperating from an accident and can barely type. But I am so hooked to your posts that i could not resist. Please post as soon as possible.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 03 May 2007 17:44

hi guys

sorry for the massive delay. i just got back from out of station work for the last two days. had some impossible deadlines to meet.

anyway, with that behind me i am back on line. :)

hang in there, i will post the next consignment within a short while.

the war's on again. :twisted:

Vivek Ahuja

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 03 May 2007 22:26

3 TACTICAL AIR CENTRE (TAC)
NORTHEASTERN TIP OF INDIA
2030HRS THURSDAY


The first engagement was a ripple fire of R-77s from the two Mig-21s. Between them they had six missiles, and they were now firing them one after another. However, only the last two were to be guided by the pilots onto the two SU-30MKKs flying top cover. The other two SU-30MKKs that had been involved in the baiting mission were still far away and not an immediate threat, although they were catching up. The remaining four missiles that had been punched off first were directed at the lower bomber element of the SU-30MKK force, without guidance. If they hit, they hit. If not, then it wasn’t their primary objective in any case. The main objective of firing the four missiles at the lower six SU-30MKKs, was to force them to break their formation, and hopefully some of them would evade by turning south. These would then enter the Akash Kill zone for Battery Alpha, located just north of Chabua.

In any case it would have been impossible for the Mig-21 pilots to find the time to fire all missiles under guidance, and it seemed a waste for them to be left hanging under the wings in case they took a hit themselves. At the very least it would confuse the Chinese pilots because they wouldn’t know which of these missiles were being guided, and as a standard elimination tactic would involve them to break pattern and evade, hopefully, right into the waiting clutches of the Akash missiles.

As such, it was now a two-tier mission for the two Indian pilots. The first involved the destruction of as many of the Chinese aircrafts as they could manage, and the second part was for them to force the SU-30MKKs into the Kill zones for the ground defences. Because they had fired the four unguided missiles first, it seemed that this second part of the mission would be completed before the first part was accomplished.

The Chinese pilots responded with a barrage of four missiles of their own, fired by the two top cover SU-30MKKs as they headed straight for the Mig-21s. There was a crucial few second delay between the time that the Indians had fired and the time the Chinese had manoeuvred and engaged in return. That meant that the Indian missiles would reach them first and that meant that they would have to disengage and evade. The same went for the bottom six SU-30MKKs as well.

As the four unguided R-77s bore down on the six-element bomber force, the Chinese SU-30MKKs spilt into first three pairs and then into single aircrafts in all azimuths. Half of the aircraft headed northeast and the remaining south and southeast, all of them diving low as they did so. Now the Akash systems went to work.

There were three SU-30MKKs in range of the missiles, and although that was only half the main bomber strike package, it was still a good amount. There were four launchers placed in the trees around the base at Chabua for the Alpha, Beta and Zulu batteries. It was the Alpha Battery that was placed to the north of the base, and it was this that was within launching range for the targets. Seconds after the three SU-30MKKs came into range, the launchers swung into action. Three missiles were fired, one each from three of the four launchers in the first volley. Another volley fire of three missiles was launched for doubling the chances for a hit. In the dark night sky, the three flames of death leaped into the sky.

There were also four R-77s flying to the north of these three SU-30MKKs, and to their south now came the six missiles of the Ground defences into Chabua. The Chinese pilots finally had the battery radars located. Unfortunately the missiles were already in the air and heading towards them. It was like finding the smoking gun in police work. You couldn’t claim that you found the smoking gun after you were suddenly looking down the barrel moments before you were shot dead. In this case the Chinese had at last found the battery location, but launching anti-radiation missiles at them was the least of their worries at the moment as they attempted to evade the Akash missiles. Then it was all over as the missiles streaked into detonation range after ignoring the radar decoys being dumped into the air by the Chinese aircrafts. The Rajendra radar was powerful phased array radar, and the missiles just followed were its beam led them. Decoys of no decoys, it was all the same for this air defence system.

The three missiles detonated in an almost perfect harmony, and two of the SU-30MKKs were blotted out the sky in massive fireballs while the third had its entire airframe peppered by the ‘frag’ pattern of the explosion next to the aircraft. The powerful detonation left the aircraft barely flying, and the Chinese crew ejected from the aircraft after bringing the shattered aircraft to level flight even as the wings started to break off and the engines flamed out. It was a miracle that the aircraft had survived so much damage, but it didn’t survive for too long as it went into a shallow dive towards the dark terrain below. Several seconds later there was a small fireball as the aircraft came down in a wet field just south of the Brahmaputra River. The smoke was lost within the dark night.

The two members of the Chinese crew of the last aircraft came down in the field next to where their aircraft had been lost and no sooner had they landed than they were approached by crowds of angry villagers who captured the WSO before he could even dislodge from his parachute. The pilot was found to be dead under his parachute from the wounds he had sustained during the missile shrapnel hits and then during the explosion. The Chinese WSO was now the seventh PLAAF crewman to be captured during this long night. And as the villagers manhandled the Chinese airman to the nearest police station, the air war over their heads continued. As the police took hold of the Chinese airman, now having sustained injuries from the manhandling he had sustained, there was another explosion in the sky above that caused everybody to look above. Seconds later the sounds reverberated across the village in the form of a loud thunderclap.

The first SU-30MKK of the top cover had just taken a hit from one of the guided R-77s. There would be no survivors from that aircraft as the small burning pieces of the wreckage rained down towards the earth. The second SU-30MKK had been luckier and had survived his R-77. Now, as he again attained level flight and azimuth to guide his own missiles, the two Mig-21s took a radical flip to their sides and dived during the half roll manoeuvre left and right, back towards the northwest. They had four missiles chasing them; all of them now being guided by the one SU-30MKK of the top-cover that had survived.

The other two SU-30MKKs finally caught up with their flight and also launched a pair of missiles each, but they were too late for any hope for their missiles. The only hope was from the four missiles being guided by the single SU-30MKK crew that was now doing its best to achieve results in the Chinese favour. That didn’t happen this time. The two Indian pilots streamed at extreme low altitude and disappeared into the Himalayan foothills before any of the missiles could reach them.

The three Chinese SU-30MKK crews of the top cover let out a common curse at the suddenness of this savage attack from the Indian defences, and at their inability to get any positive results.

Finally it was enough. The mission commander flying along with two other remaining Chinese SU-30MKK bomber element force heading northeast ordered the three top cover SU-30MKKs to break off and join them. The Chinese force commander had taken enough losses in his two strike packages at Sukerating and Chabua, and although the nine aircraft force of five bomber and four top cover aircrafts were about to launch attacks at Ledo, after successfully destroying the main communications node for 3 TAC west of Sukerating with dumb bombs, they were told to break off and head home.

The last aircrafts to break off the fight were the two SU-30MKKs of the Sukerating force that were chasing the two surviving Mig-21s of the Chabua force heading southeast at extreme range. The two Chinese pilots had already lost heart at the destruction of eight of their number during the attack on Sukerating, and neither did they have the long-range radar guided missiles for extreme engagement. All they had were close range self defence IR missiles, and it was likely that the two Indian Pilots had all the intention to take them through a winding chase through the hills that they knew by memory and which the Chinese were unaware of. The logical thing was therefore to disengage while they still had the advantage, and this the two SU-30MKKs executed with flawless precision, and before the two Indian Mig-21 pilots had any idea that their hunters had broken off, they were gone.

With that the first battle for 3 TAC was over as abruptly as it had begun. The Chinese SU-30MKK strike forces had taken a battering from the combined air and ground defences at 3 TAC, and they were now moving northeast in broken elements. The only coherent force was the intact force of nine aircrafts from the abortive strike at Ledo. From the ten aircraft forces to hit each of the 3 TAC bases at Sukerating and Chabua, only two and six aircrafts were returning back to base. In all, the Chinese had lost twenty-three SU-30MKKs in this massive raid, not to mention another twelve SU-27s from the eastern barrier force, and that had put a big dent in their Sukhoi fleet. But it hadn’t been all for nothing. The Indian defences had been dealt a crippling blow.

The main fighter force in the sector had been destroyed. The squadron coherence was now lost as the survivors of the Chabua force started heading towards their home base. The IAF had lost seventeen Mig-21 Bisons, and another had been damaged beyond repair, out of a total of twenty-eight aircraft split between Chabua and Jorhat. The base at Sukerating had been shattered and left burning. It was unlikely to be repaired any time soon.

The defences at the base had also been lost. The main communications centre southwest of Sukerating had been destroyed completely, and this had temporarily severed the communication data-links of 3 TAC with EAC Air headquarters before the backup facility near Chabua had kicked in. This temporary shutdown in communications had led the staff at IAF HQ to believe that the SU-30MKK force had broken through, although that chaos had been sorted out as clear news of the Chinese abortion of their strike had started coming through.

There were now only two barrier forces of SU-27s and another strike force of J-10s about to hit Tawang that were left as immediate threats. But these were in the west, and the equations there were different. As far as the exhausted Mig-21 Pilots of 3 TAC were concerned, it was not their battle. They had fought their own battle, alone and cut off from the rest of the IAF against an enemy superior in numbers and capability, and held their own, barely.

The battle for 3 TAC on this night was one for the annals of military history, but it would not be the last. The IAF had played the Chinese game too long, and had done so only to build up its strength. With whole fleets of SU-30MKIs now entering the region, the life expectancy for the two dozen SU-27s in the west was already being measured in minutes.

If the battle for 3 TAC had been difficult for the Chinese, the one in the west was about to become a slaughter.


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