Possible Indian Military Scenarios - Part VIII

saty
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Postby saty » 28 May 2007 14:18

amol.p wrote:
ok acknowledged


Please clean up your posts accordingly

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Postby ksmahesh » 28 May 2007 14:20

I am lucky i stay very close to him in pune......will directly go to his home and read the upcoming chapters Laughing


grrr this is unfair...... highly unfair advantage of same city. Anyone breaking official secrets shall be prosecuted by the jury here. All information shall be released in open domain without prior leaks.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 29 May 2007 03:20

PALAM AIRPORT
NEW DELHI, INDIA
2235 HRS THURSDAY


The airport was in semi-blackout. All non-essential lighting was switched off. The runway lights were off, and they would be switched on only when some aircraft was approaching for a landing or takeoff. Most of those flights were now military in some capacity or the other any and all commercial flights had been diverted to the international airport where there was a huge mass of foreigners waiting to leave the country as soon as possible. That was part of the economic side of this war that was not even a day old but one that was spiralling out of control. The media was having a field day so far.

Although they were nowhere near the real battlefields in the northeast, they had covered the aftermath of the destruction of Bareilly airfield in all its awful glory, showing the airfield coved with black smoke visible a dozen kilometres away. The civilians would not know of the desperate air battles fought in the air because they happened in the northeast and Tibet only a short time ago in the dark, and despite some media footage showing aircraft wreckage strewn over Assam with IAF roundels on them and the Chinese red star, the war had had not really been felt among the citizens.

The country was still in shock. Less than a day had passed and so much had happened. Only this morning the PM had gone on television to address the nation that diplomacy would win through in the end by peaceful methods. Then they had seen the External Affairs Minister Dr. Shivdev Singh say in a press conference that the Chinese Ambassador was to arrive and meet the PM to resolve the differences peacefully and that it would certainly be resolved peacefully. And then all of a sudden the media started reporting that combat had taken place and everybody had the footage on their television showing Bareilly Airfield burning from end to end after sustaining the massive missile strikes. For those who didn’t know, it was a shock to say the day’s events unfold, and yet it had seemed strange fully disconnected.

This wasn’t a war against Pakistan, and there was a lack of emotions against the Chinese simply because the average citizen didn’t regard then in the same stead as Pakistan, despite the 1962 debacle. That had changed an hour ago, when the first faces of the captured Chinese pilots had come on the television sets. The local police who had apprehended these pilots in Assam were speaking on television about how the Chinese had crashed all over and their manhunt for these men. Now the Indian public had a face to hate, and they looked to the government to see how they were handling the war for India. And that didn’t make the job any easier for the concerned people. Their every step was now being watched and scrutinised by an angry and concerned nation.

The military situation was extremely fluid at the moment. The war had just started. Both sides were at their peak strengths, despite the recent losses. Morale was still high. Fatigue was low. Reserves were as yet untouched, and the ground situation was holding. Neither side was going to back off now. Not yet at any rate. And this would remain the case until one side comprehensively defeated the other or when both would wear themselves out. In either case, the war was definitely going to last for more days to come. This was no skirmish. This was the real thing. And because it was the real thing, the Indian Government was now mobilising into action.

The airfield perimeter had been cordoned off hours ago by a large number of Air Force Police, airport security and local Police teams. There were paramilitary teams in their vehicles roaming around the airfield, and MPs and local police teams were searching all buildings within reach of the line of sight of the airfield in an attempt to catch anybody keeping an eye on the comings and goings to and from this now exclusively military airfield. These would normally not be carried out in the vigour as the search teams were showing now, but then a number of very special flights were about to lift off the ground in the darkness of the night and they didn’t want anybody watching, least of all the media who might be camping outside. This one was totally under wraps. It had to be.

At the airport itself, the main buildings had their lights switched off. However, the main tarmac where was still lighted, albeit in reduced lighting, and there were only four aircraft parked on it. All other aircraft had been diverted to other airfields in the south. Of the four parked aircrafts, two were AN-32s which had their rear ramps lowered as IAF flight and ground crews prepared for an imminent takeoff with their cargo of passengers. But they had heir engines switched off because the other two aircrafts were going to leave before them.

These two aircrafts were B-737 BBJs from the IAF’s VIP Squadron and they had their anti-collision lights flashing and their engines humming on the tarmac. Inside, the cockpit lighting was on and the Co-pilots were going over the checklists while the two pilots were standing outside of the aircraft in the cold night and giving the aircraft a visual check along with some ground crewmen. They were using their flashlights to check areas not visible to them in the dark areas. Normally both pilot and Co-pilot would do this walk-around, but this was not a normal flight. This was the third and final walk-around the pilots were conducting in order to make sure they hadn’t missed out something before. A hundred metres away they could see the soldiers standing in the darkness with their INSAS rifles slinging from the shoulders and their NV goggles in front of their eyes as they gave the blacked out runway a final security check before takeoff.

Then everybody jerked around as they heard the sounds of cars approaching and from the entrance near the buildings came out a large convoy of cars in a line and approached the first B-737 nearer to them. This was the Presidential convoy. The cars came to a halt and the security officers swung open the doors and jumped out to secure the area around the vehicle before the Indian President stepped out. Another IAF SUV turned up and from it stepped out ACM Bhosale and a bunch of other officers and they walked over to meet the President and guide him to the aircraft. As the president stepped out, all unformed personnel snapped into attention and saluted, a gesture the president returned with a nod and a knowing smile. He had done this before.

ACM Bhosale wasted no time in guiding the President to the red-carpet-laden stairs leading into the aircraft. He had a war to fight, and he was not the least it interested in this guiding stuff. But this aircraft belonged to his command, and it was one of his duties whether he liked it or not. The President realised the urgency of the situation and quickly climbed up the stairs where the Captain of the aircraft met him who had scrambled aboard after giving a quick salute to the Air Chief.

The rest of the presidential detail had already climbed aboard from the rear entrance before the President. Even before the doors had been closed, the engines lighted off with an increasingly loud humming noise as the turbines started moving. The cars left one behind the other as they cleared the tarmac for the first BBJ. All of a sudden the taxiway lighted up along with the runway and the aircraft started to roll under its own power as it turned towards one of them before it taxied down to the end of the runway for take-off.

Even as the first cars cleared the tarmac, another convoy of cars came in from the same entrance and headed for the second aircraft on the Tarmac. This one carried the PM and his entourage. The PM got off his car and was again greeted by ACM Bhosale. From the rear cars stepped the COAS and his primary staff team who began scrambling up the rear stairs of the aircraft as the COAS walked over to the PM and the ACM. The CNS was not present, although a Rear Admiral was. The CNS was already in his point command, the Eastern fleet HQ. And he would remain there for the duration of this war. His war, in particular would begin in a matter of hours and he was busy putting the final touches on his grand plan for closing the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean to the Chinese.

A final relatively small convoy came in last and also headed for the parked aircraft. it came to a stop and out stepped the Defence Minister who walked over to join the PM and his Military commanders. It was cold outside and needless to say the people weren’t exactly in the right frame of mind to begin with. In the background there was a large noise as the Presidential aircraft lifted off the runway and headed into the dark night. As soon as the noise died down, the PM spoke up as he addressed his defence minister.

“Ravi, what’s this report I got on the way regarding the Chinese missiles? It was very brief and non-explanatory.â€

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Postby sanjchopra » 29 May 2007 04:05

Vivek, Great stuff - Is somebody collating Vivek's scenarios? as this is truly good book material. I would hate to see it get archived in scenario thread only.

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Postby SGupta » 29 May 2007 09:11

I just postead a link in the India China new diections saga that may serve well for a base of information for people writing scenarios.

Here is the link:

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pdfs/07 ... -final.pdf

Its thinking from one perspective anyway.

Regards,
Sanjay

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Postby rudradeep » 29 May 2007 10:19

sanjchopra wrote:Vivek, Great stuff - Is somebody collating Vivek's scenarios? as this is truly good book material. I would hate to see it get archived in scenario thread only.


I have collated vivek's writing from the beginning till the chinese J-10 bombing on tawang for my personal reading. If Vivek is ok with it, I can mail out a copy of it to anyone interested. Those interested can drop in a mail at rudradeepDOTrayATgmail.com

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New Angle

Postby skaranam » 29 May 2007 12:48

Vivek:

Can we incorporate an angle which includes a Denial of Service attacks on China's internet infrastructure?

Karanam /-

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Postby nits » 29 May 2007 21:09

vivek_ahuja wrote:
“Sir, it’s being taken care of. Once you are airborne, we are going to release it to the public that the NCA is airborne


Vivek few Queries:-

1) Wouldn't it will create chaos and fear in public that as NCA is airborne, Delhi is in Danger or to be striked and they all public will try to move out of delhi ?

2) NCA will remain airborne or they are going to some secured Location as they can have threat in air from chinese planes... ?

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 31 May 2007 22:50

NORTH OF TAWANG,
ARUNACHAL PRADESH, INDIA
2300 HRS THURSDAY


The artillery fire had done the job, for now. The first Chinese assault had been stopped dead in their tracks, quite literally. But there had been more assaults in the last half hour, and now the defenders were showing signs of strain within their ranks. The infantry company on the Indian side of the hill had lost nearly two-dozen men, thanks not to the Chinese soldiers as much as their mortar fire. Even after the Indian shells had knocked out several mortar crews in a series of overkill counter battery fire, the Chinese had simply brought more down from the northern regiments and begun again. They had numbers on their side. The Indians didn’t. While the loss of an entire Chinese infantry platoon caught in the open against the Indian artillery didn’t as much as put a dent in their momentum, the loss of every Indian soldier meant that the one next to him now had more responsibility to handle. He had now another sector of fire to watch and the effect was cascading until a point would be reached when every Indian soldier on top of that hill would have to cover wide sectors of fire, and that was a precursor to disaster. And it wasn’t far away. The Indian guns at Tawang had been firing continuously for so long now that their breeches needed cooling, and when that happened, the Chinese would pop out of their holes and make their final assault against the beleaguered Indian positions.

Zero line had never been meant as a main defensive line for just this reason. The Chinese were too strong at the moment. The idea was of a flexible response. It was like a stretched rubber band. Any point under pressure does not cause the spring to break, simply for it to move elastically backwards, and when the pressure reduces, the band moves back into position. Elastic Defence was the term for this concept. That rubber-band was the Arunachal border with china, and the Chinese were exerting the pressure at Bum-La. It was time to fold back into the next line of defensive positions, a few kilometres to the south. But making the decision of moving back was simple enough for Major Patel. Getting there was going to prove difficult as the Chinese were breathing down his neck.

Patel had already ordered the infantry company at the top of the hill to prepare to move out to the south, but not to move just yet. The Indian army had to retain control of that hill until the western elements of Zero Line had also moved south, otherwise the Chinese might envelop the entire Indian force with a eastern hook type movement. At the same time, the hill in question offered extensive fields of fire down the few hundred metres of the road from Bum-La that went in the east-west direction. This was the main Indian line of retreat to the south for the western element of Zero Line. Incidentally, it was also where the two T-90s were parked, and the Chinese could not be allowed to look down that road while they were still there, or else they might get their heavy gear forward and start gunning for the two Indian tanks, and that was highly unacceptable. And yet, there really was no say in the matter anymore…

The eastern hill that was quiet for some time now suddenly came to life as there was a massive uproar from the north as the Chinese soldiers attempted to storm the Indian controlled peak to their south in a massive and final assault backed up by a storm of mortar fire that consumed the Indian positions in artificial smoke and real ones as the Chinese soldiers ran up the hill from cover to cover behind rocks and terrain. Then the Indian LMGs opened up along with several machineguns that were no longer firing bursts but full automatic fire towards the Chinese line of advance.

The lines of yellow tracer laden bullets and the cacophony of yelling and noise of gunfire consumed the hill. There were Indian assault rifles firing now, not in single aimed shots or bursts but in full automatic fire as well as the Chinese soldiers began overrunning the Indian positions despite horrendous casualties of their own against trained Indian army troops. Every few seconds that Major Patel watched, the sounds of Indian gunfire reduced more and more and the Chinese noises remained as before. He could not see the battle himself, but he knew the Indian positions had been overrun and captured based solely on the noises he heard. Soon the Indian machine gunfire ceased and there was a loud cheering uproar from the Chinese soldiers on that hill. There were no more sounds of Indian infantry weapons coming from the eastern hill. That battle had been lost. Major Patel lowered his binoculars and stared upwards at the sky.

Damn! Damn! Damn! God Damn it! I left it too late. I should have ordered a pullback after the first assault itself…Damn it! It’s my entire fault. I have failed my command and my men…Dear God! An entire company! They were my troops…Damn it! What the hell was I thinking? Okay…all right…calm down, calm down…let’s think it through. what the hell else could I have done anyway? That hill should not have fallen into enemy hands. But it did anyway…damn it. Damn it! Okay. There will be a time for this later. Right now I still have to get the rest of my men south…but first I have to shut down those cheering Chinese mouths. This kind of thing will ruin the morale of my entire unit! Those ********! Damn them all to hell! Where’s that radio?

Major Patel shouted out for his radioman, who came running to him from his dug in position. He handed over the receiver to his commanding officer. Patel was soon in touch with at the artillery command in Tawang.

“This is RODEO Command. Requesting immediate priority Fire Mission on location Echo-bravo-Three-Five-Six. Over.â€

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Postby Rampy » 01 Jun 2007 00:20

vivek_ahuja wrote:NORTH OF TAWANG,
ARUNACHAL PRADESH, INDIA
2300 HRS THURSDAY


Zero line had never been meant as a main defensive line for just this reason. The Chinese were too strong at the moment. The idea was of a flexible response.


Hi Vivek

In ur last post I thought u said that we were planning to strengthen Zero line and APC were moved in Col Yadav was asking for it.

But in your current post they dont show up , were they dispatched but never reached or was statergy changed?

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Postby rsingh » 01 Jun 2007 00:58

Why Chinese are supposed to be numerous? Why it always number game? We saw this in 1962. If our planners think that Chinese win "only because of numbers".......then hell get the numbers to match them. Do we have shortage of Jawans?

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 01 Jun 2007 01:24

Okay, there are a lot of questions piled up.

In ur last post I thought u said that we were planning to strengthen Zero line and APC were moved in Col Yadav was asking for it.

But in your current post they dont show up , were they dispatched but never reached or was statergy changed?


Correct. Check the timeline for the last two posts. They were dispatched but so far have not reached. There was no change in strategy from the Indian side. External events have changed them. Remember, the Chinese are fighting the war too. They are not going to wait for us to build up, and why should they? They want to win as much as we do. Moreover, they will take every advantage they have over us. If it means avoiding the tank suitable terrain by taking to the hills with their superior numbers in infantry, so be it. Remember that old saying: no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

Why Chinese are supposed to be numerous? Why it always number game? We saw this in 1962. If our planners think that Chinese win "only because of numbers".......then hell get the numbers to match them. Do we have shortage of Jawans?


I am assuming that this outburst is not directed at the writer as such. :)

And no, the Chinese don’t win because of numbers. They were better prepared too in 1962. This is one of the facts often forgotten in our context. That time, not only did they have far superior numbers, they also had better infantry weapons than we did. They held all the cards on both numbers and infantry weapons. We were literally asking for it in 1962.

And it’s always a numbers game because if in a battle, you take every advantage you have with you. If I realize that the other guy is superior in thinking or weapons quality, why would I want to fight him on his home ground? Offset him. Fight him on your own ground. If it means numerical superiority, use it. If it means overwhelming the other guy by brute force, so be it. The end result is what counts, especially if you are willing to use your soldiers that way. Which is another important point.

Also even if we had numbers on our side, do you think we could ever use them in ways that the Chinese have demonstrated in the Korean War or the 1962 war? We place far greater emphasis on the lives of our soldiers, in which case, would any of our commanders throw them at the enemy as human wave tactics as the Chinese did back then? Or even now, with all the high-tech gizmos, taking a hill is taking a hill. It gets worse in a time constraint battle where you don’t have the luxury of sitting for days while your artillery softens the enemy up. In other words, in such flashpoint scenarios, numerical superiority is a very handy tool, if the technological gap has been reduced to a level where the assault is no longer a massacre. And the Chinese are moving head on to achieving that.

They also have a much more coherent drive towards their strategic military buildup objectives. No ad-hoc knee jerk reactionary buildup either. They are looking at matching their forces with the US, not with us. Take that pill with a glass of numerical superiority and you get a very formidable force.

As for the shortage of Jawans, well, if the budget allowed, there could be as many volunteers as you wanted. But does it allow?

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Postby rsingh » 01 Jun 2007 01:55

am assuming that this outburst is not directed at the writer as such. Smile


Not as such but I expected you (or other knowledgeable)to comment on this.
Thanks for that. If we are not prepared technologically, at least we can have numbers. Me think reducing army size in order to "modernize" is useless for a developing country like us. We must emphasize on numbers until we have "gene proof fence "on the boundary........fence that destroy any yellow gene carrier.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 01 Jun 2007 02:16

If we are not prepared technologically, at least we can have numbers. Me think reducing army size in order to "modernize" is useless for a developing country like us. We must emphasize on numbers until we have "gene proof fence "on the boundary........fence that destroy any yellow gene carrier.


No arguments there. It comes down to the budget again. For a fixed budget, you can’t have numbers and modernization simultaneously in the short term. And pakis and chini are both ahead of us in the budget aspects. Our budget needs to increase, and there is little doubt about it.

At the same time, my scenario assumes that it does not change by the amount needed, and that the assumptions for technology and numbers are what would actually be the case a few years from now. No extreme fantasies yet… :)

Vivek Ahuja

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 01 Jun 2007 02:19

Vivek few Queries:-

1) Wouldn't it will create chaos and fear in public that as NCA is airborne, Delhi is in Danger or to be striked and they all public will try to move out of delhi ?

2) NCA will remain airborne or they are going to some secured Location as they can have threat in air from chinese planes... ?


For the first question, read the scenario again. As pointed out, the Chinese would look at hitting targets in Delhi only as a means of decapitating the government heads. But attacks of this kind are usually high political decisions. They are to be avoided by most commanders if the chances of hitting are less than perfect. So, if I release it in the public that the targets you are gunning for are not there, there is no need to target the city as such. In a nutshell, the idea is to discourage the Chinese from thinking that attacking Delhi is a cool idea. The chaos and exodus notwithstanding, if it means the missiles hitting even empty houses, then that is what the military will try to achieve. So that’s the military point of view.

Coming to the civilian side, they don’t know what’s going on, so your side for the argument is valid regarding the instilling of fear and chaos is valid. And this something difficult to predict, isn’t it? Depends on a lot of factors. Consider this: the US struck Baghdad on the first day of the war in an attempt to assassinate Saddam. The results obtained are irrelevant, however, the point is that now you, me and everybody watching world news knows that this kind of attack can be expected in other wars as well. And they also know that China, for example, may not give as much attention to avoiding collateral damage as the Americans do or that they might not have the technology to do that anyway, so there might certainly be civilian casualties.

Having said this, it means that anybody living in Delhi, for example, may start wondering about going to his or her relative’s place outside Delhi the moment this whole war started and not just by the news that the NCA is airborne. It goes for other towns near possible military targets. The thing is, this kind of exodus is unavoidable in most cases.

Put in more in perspective, look at it this way: what if you didn’t tell the public yourself that the NCA is airborne or in some secure location? The news is bound to leak out somewhere along the line and in the most unlikely of places. Mostly with someone opening his mouth in front of the wrong person. If that happens, don’t you think that will instill more fear than telling the public confidently, yourself, that the NCA is airborne and taking control of things? Either way, this is difficult to predict and you would need some Psychologist or someone to predict human reaction more accurately, and which, something, mind you, needs to be done in real life as well.

Which is what brings me to your second question.

You have asked a very good real life (stepping outside the scenario prism here) question. It refers in general to the kind of planning that may or may not have been thought of as of today in our military circles. This we may never know, and we don’t need to know.

Having said that, the answer can be given obliquely based on the technology at hand. At present, we have ordered a number of Boeing BBJ aircrafts to replace the 737s of the VIP Squadron for such duties, but they are not in-flight refuelable. They have the communications and ECM suite inside them for maintaining contact and safety, but can only be airborne for so long before they have to come down to refuel. So the ‘airborne’ part disappears when they do that.

This does not say that the idea wasn’t there, just that the IAF doesn’t have the probe type refueling aircraft like the USAF does for their ACPs and since its nearly impossible to latch up with the hose and drogue type pods in such a large BBJ aircraft. So what does that say about our ACP capabilities? Just this: they are and will be ACPs. Even when they land, they can quickly refuel and go back up again to maintain station. That is one answer to your question. The other that you asked, about the presence of some secure facility, just doesn’t ring the right bells, because if there is one thing we need to keep in mind regarding this concept is that old adage: if you can see it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can destroy it.

The point is, ACPs means that you can’t ‘see it’, and even with the limitation of coming down every several hours to refuel, it has that advantage, and the refueling airfields can easily be varied in any case.

Apart from that, there are no more spoilers: you will have to wait and read it within the scenario itself with the others... :)

Vivek Ahuja

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Postby b_karan » 01 Jun 2007 09:20

vivek_ahuja wrote: No ad-hoc knee jerk reactionary buildup either. They are looking at matching their forces with the US, not with us. Take that pill with a glass of numerical superiority and you get a very formidable force.



Perfecty agree with this ...... Chinese work to match their forces against the US ..not with us ...while we are more concerned with Pakis and B'desh ....... and always deny Chinese threat .... though we are already surrounded by their cronies ..in both east and west .
Its not difficult to guess the result of this ..foolhardy indian policy .

Indian Armed forces seems to be the last hope.... Seems they are prepared this time .

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Postby nits » 01 Jun 2007 11:45

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Apart from that, there are no more spoilers: you will have to wait and read it within the scenario itself with the others... :)

Vivek Ahuja


Thanks a lot for really taking up time and solving my queries in detail... you have just added few more stars in your fan rating... :D

Your description also make me think the effort and thorough planning that you are putting in for every post... Good Job... :!:

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Postby Rahul M » 02 Jun 2007 00:24

Perfecty agree with this ...... Chinese work to match their forces against the US ..not with us ...while we are more concerned with Pakis and B'desh ....... and always deny Chinese threat .... though we are already surrounded by their cronies ..in both east and west .


that's news to me !! since when ??

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Postby PaulJI » 02 Jun 2007 04:35

vivek_ahuja wrote: ...
This does not say that the idea wasn’t there, just that the IAF doesn’t have the probe type refueling aircraft like the USAF does for their ACPs and since its nearly impossible to latch up with the hose and drogue type pods in such a large BBJ aircraft. ...

Vivek Ahuja


You're mistaken there. The UK has always used exclusively hose & drogue refuelling, for bombers & transports as well as fighters. The RAF has done more air-air refuellings of large aircraft via hose & drogue than you can shake a stick at. How do you think it bombed the Falklands from Ascension? The USSR adopted hose & drogue refuelling for its bomber fleet. I'm sure that if Vulcans & Tu-95s can be refuelled via hose & drogue, so can a Boeing BBJ - if suitably equipped.

The USAF adopted boom refuelling because the maximum flow through a rigid boom is greater than through a hose, which is an advantage for refuelling large aircraft which need large volumes of fuel. At the time the USAF adopted booms, hose & drogue was pretty slow, much slower than it is now, so the decision was sound. I suspect that's where the idea that hose & drogues unsuitability for large aircraft originated. But the best hose systems can now refuel faster than booms did back then. Still slower than current booms, but plenty fast enough for a BBJ.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jun 2007 05:14

The UK has always used exclusively hose & drogue refuelling, for bombers & transports as well as fighters. The RAF has done more air-air refuellings of large aircraft via hose & drogue than you can shake a stick at. How do you think it bombed the Falklands from Ascension? The USSR adopted hose & drogue refuelling for its bomber fleet. I'm sure that if Vulcans & Tu-95s can be refuelled via hose & drogue, so can a Boeing BBJ - if suitably equipped.


Okay, I will accept that. But surely you are not suggesting that the aerodynamics of a bomber or a military aircraft in general will be the same as that of a 737 airliner based aircraft? If you compare the flexibility of an aircraft to latch itself onto a hose and drogue system, then for fighters there is no problem. Even for bombers there is little problem, and as you point out, the RAF did the same as did a number of air forces around the world. The difficulty arises for passenger aircraft optimized for some military purpose.

Since they are not designed to be as nimble, they can face difficulty in trying to make minute adjustments in the massive turbulent flow wake and buffeting behind the refueling aircraft. One of the ideas behind Probe or ‘Boom’ type refueling is the flexibility or rather the rigidity of the refueling probe and thus its fixed nature as opposed to a hose hanging behind the aircraft. Also, the refueling operator on the refeuller makes the final adjustments and corrections using the control surfaces on the boom based on viusal acquisition, and unless some major change is required, the pilots of the other aircraft do not do anything other than maintain their current position. This makes it less stressful for both sets of crews as well. Also, if things turn out as you say, it just might turn out to be the first hose and drogue refueling for a B-737 as far as I know.

In any case, with regard to the BBJs and the IAF, the fact remains that the BBJs are not coming with the refueling systems installed, whatever may have been the reason behind it. Whether that will change later on we don’t know. As a result, all this is speculation on my part and yours regarding the lack of the refueling systems on these aircrafts. While writing the scenario I chose to include their capability, as it exists now. Let’s see if things change in the future. I sure hope so.

Vivek Ahuja

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Postby Yagnasri » 02 Jun 2007 14:45

vivek_ahuja wrote:
The UK has always used exclusively hose & drogue refuelling, for bombers & transports as well as fighters. The RAF has done more air-air refuellings of large aircraft via hose & drogue than you can shake a stick at. How do you think it bombed the Falklands from Ascension? The USSR adopted hose & drogue refuelling for its bomber fleet. I'm sure that if Vulcans & Tu-95s can be refuelled via hose & drogue, so can a Boeing BBJ - if suitably equipped.


Okay, I will accept that. But surely you are not suggesting that the aerodynamics of a bomber or a military aircraft in general will be the same as that of a 737 airliner based aircraft? If you compare the flexibility of an aircraft to latch itself onto a hose and drogue system, then for fighters there is no problem. Even for bombers there is little problem, and as you point out, the RAF did the same as did a number of air forces around the world. The difficulty arises for passenger aircraft optimized for some military purpose.

Since they are not designed to be as nimble, they can face difficulty in trying to make minute adjustments in the massive turbulent flow wake and buffeting behind the refueling aircraft. One of the ideas behind Probe or ‘Boom’ type refueling is the flexibility or rather the rigidity of the refueling probe and thus its fixed nature as opposed to a hose hanging behind the aircraft. Also, the refueling operator on the refeuller makes the final adjustments and corrections using the control surfaces on the boom based on viusal acquisition, and unless some major change is required, the pilots of the other aircraft do not do anything other than maintain their current position. This makes it less stressful for both sets of crews as well. Also, if things turn out as you say, it just might turn out to be the first hose and drogue refueling for a B-737 as far as I know.

In any case, with regard to the BBJs and the IAF, the fact remains that the BBJs are not coming with the refueling systems installed, whatever may have been the reason behind it. Whether that will change later on we don’t know. As a result, all this is speculation on my part and yours regarding the lack of the refueling systems on these aircrafts. While writing the scenario I chose to include their capability, as it exists now. Let’s see if things change in the future. I sure hope so.

Vivek Ahuja


Boss don't waste you time repling these mails. Get on with your story. Don't you know you are killing lot of our boys with your delays. They can not waite longer.

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Postby PaulJI » 02 Jun 2007 16:04

vivek_ahuja wrote:... But surely you are not suggesting that the aerodynamics of a bomber or a military aircraft in general will be the same as that of a 737 airliner based aircraft? If you compare the flexibility of an aircraft to latch itself onto a hose and drogue system, then for fighters there is no problem. Even for bombers there is little problem, and as you point out, the RAF did the same as did a number of air forces around the world. The difficulty arises for passenger aircraft optimized for some military purpose. ...
Vivek Ahuja


RAF Nimrods have air-air refuelling. They're MPAs derived from airliners. Air-air refuelling is used for various transport aircraft, e.g. the RAF has operated Hercules with air-air refuelling, on flights where if it didn't work, everyone on board would die (Ascension-Falklands). Suggests that it's not too big a problem. The USMC routinely refuels helicopters using hose & drogue refuelling. Basically, it works for just about any kind of aircraft. Pilot has to be properly trained, get enough practice, & the tanker & receiver have to be able to match speed.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jun 2007 23:58

NORTH OF TAWANG,
ARUNACHAL PRADESH, INDIA
2310 HRS THURSDAY


The Chinese Regiment that had taken the eastern hill from the Indians was, in essence, combat ineffective. They had taken casualties in the hundreds, dead and wounded included, from both the Indian machinegun fire and the artillery barrages, in an hour of brutal fighting that had culminated in hand to hand combat in the final stages only minutes ago. Had they had more time, and friendly long range artillery, the casualties could have been far less, but as the Indian plans had been ruined by their lightening assault, their own plan for artillery fire had been wrenched away by the Indian counter battery fire from Tawang.

As a result, both sides had their plans affected, and their casualties reflected this. The Chinese had factored this into their plans for breaking through the Indian defences. It was expected that casualties would be high, and so each regiment was supposed to do one major job before it was to be relieved by others in a north-south movement, all the time bringing new units forward and putting battle damaged formations on holding duty as they planned to move south to the town of Tawang. The Chinese regiment on east hill had been tasked to take this hill and some others, but they had been reduced to a shell of their former self after taking only this hill. But they were about to be relieved, starting fifteen minutes after taking this hill. They were still consolidating their positions on the top when the first Indian shells from a new Fire Mission ordered by Major Patel hit the hilltop they were on.

Major Patel was again looking at the hill to his east from his binoculars when the night turned to day. Two and a half batteries, and almost every available 155 mm gun in Tawang had been concentrated to this Fire Mission alone, and with simultaneous TOT from all guns combined, the hilltop positions were covered with orange and yellow flashes in a matter of seconds with the associated thunderous noises. The Chinese cheering that had been going on for several minutes now was abruptly silenced with the noise of man-made thunder.

A few seconds more and the entire top part of the east hill was covered with a thick cloud of smoke and dust, with the occasional orange flash visible through it. The Gunfire from Tawang continued for another minute before the Forward Artillery Controllers standing next to Patel called off the fire for a lack of visible targets. As the guns fell silent, Zero Line hills continued to echo the sound of thunder for several seconds before it died out and was replaced with the sound of silence. There was no more noise from the Chinese on East Hill. When he lowered his binoculars, Major Patel had a smile on his face that he had no intention of hiding.

See you in hell, comrades…

Despite the momentary victory, there was not time for cheering. There was work to be done. The Chinese follow on regiments would soon be moving into the same positions to make a permanent presence there, and there was nothing that could be done about that by Major Patel. The ‘TACIT-TWO’ Searcher-II from Bomdila was now charged with directing the Artillery fire on these follow on Chinese units that were so far not in the LOS of the troops in Major Patel’s force. In any case, with their eastern flank overrun, and the road on which supplies would come to them now clearly visible to Chinese forces on East Hill, they had to pull back south to join the main defences. That movement was to be completed in the time gap between the two Chinese units replacing each other on East-Hill. The Indian movement plan was a thing of complexity, and it had to be. The circumstances had made it that way.

Because the East-Hill overlooked the main road from Bum-La to Tawang fro this stretch, the two Indian T-90s were now also exposed, and also within range of any anti-tank missiles that the follow on Chinese troops might be bringing forward with them. That necessitated a speedy withdrawal by Captain Shukla, and a speedy withdrawal was not something that could be done in this kind of mountainous region. He had to move in reverse, and that too, slowly.

To make matters worse, the Indian troops now moving back were suddenly exposed from an elevated enemy position on East-Hill which meant that Captain Shukla also had to provide the much needed infantry support fire as the troops pulled back using his tanks as cover until they could reach that bend in the road half a kilometre to their west where they would again be behind cover and where the trucks were waiting to pull the troops back south. But for that few hundred metres, the Indian troops had to pull back on an east-west axis with the Chinese on elevated positions to their east. It was not an enviable situation.

This pullback had started in earnest as soon as the first sounds of Chinese cheering had started to come from East-Hill not so long ago, and the two Indian T-90s were slowly moving backwards on the road with their turrets facing the ‘enemy’ hill as squads of troops leapfrogged in small movements to stay next to the tanks during the movement. Captain Shukla was in the lead T-90 and was using the commander’s sights inside the turret to scan the East-Hill for any movement. So far there was no movement and the hill was still covered the smoke and dust from the artillery rounds that had stopped only minutes ago.

The second T-90 in his command was behind him to the west by a hundred metres. This wide separation was essential because the two tanks were on an east west road and facing a threat along the same axis, which meant that for the rear tank to have a chance of seeing the enemy, he had to be far behind the lead tank. This also allowed engaging the targets on East-Hill by firing well over the turret of the T-90 in front of him. This was extremely dangerous and was avoided under normal conditions; but here there was no choice. The only cover the Indian Mountain Infantry Troops had were these two tanks for their movement for the next few hundred metres, and Shukla wanted both T-90s shooting, and not just one.

Both the gunner and tank commanders were frantically looking for any movement on East-Hill to indicate that the Chinese were setting up anti-tank missile systems or some other weapons that might hinder the smooth Indian movement to the west. The two T-90 turrets were rotating in fixed angles on both sides of the long body axis and the guns were in an elevated position facing the top sections of the East-Hill in front of them that seemed to be getting farther and farther away by the minute, and there was still nothing to be seen with regard to Chinese movement. But that didn’t last long.

Major Patel was also moving west with his troops, but his movement was more of a casual walk with his radioman walking beside him as they headed west. The radio buzzed with activity and the Radioman caught up with his commanding officer and handed him the speaker.

“RODEO Command, This is EAGLE-EYE. Be advised, TACIT-TWO Reports Chinese reinforcing troops as having reached East-Hill. Suggest you expedite Zero-Line movement ASAP. Over.â€

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Postby SGupta » 03 Jun 2007 07:05

[quote="vivek_ahuja]
We are going to fry East-hill and all Chinese who happen to be on it in under ten minutes...â€

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Postby Angaar » 03 Jun 2007 09:40

vivek_ahuja wrote:........We are going to fry East-hill and all Chinese who happen to be on it in under ten minutes......


Medium done for me, please. With fries and diet coke!!

Jokes apart, this si brilliant stuff. Well researched and lucid writing. Vivek, get this printed - you have a best seller on your hands!! Well done!

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Postby Sudhanshu » 03 Jun 2007 22:10

Rahul M wrote:
Perfecty agree with this ...... Chinese work to match their forces against the US ..not with us ...while we are more concerned with Pakis and B'desh ....... and always deny Chinese threat .... though we are already surrounded by their cronies ..in both east and west .


that's news to me !! since when ??



:) I remember, we joked about Bangladesh after brutal killing of 9 BSF guys by BDR, that we don't need to ask the services of Indian Army to invade that failed country. Tripura police or Assam police with slight assistance from BSF alone can teach them a lesson.

So, it is news for me too!!

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Postby JCage » 03 Jun 2007 22:46

Thats hubris. Bangladesh may not be a Grade A military power, but it does have a reasonable standing army equipped suitably.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Army

March '06

-----------------------------

Bangladesh moves to modernise air defence and
artillery

ROBERT KARNIOL JDW Asia Pacific Editor
Dhaka

* The Bangladesh Army is replacing its HN-5/HN-5A
SAM with the Chinese-made QW-2 and moving to obtain
its first self-propelled howitzer

* The new artillery regiment now being established
will be equipped with the SPH, and mechanised brigades
may eventually be formed

The Bangladesh Army is moving to upgrade its
capabilities with the induction of a new short-range
air-defence missile and plans to introduce its first
self-propelled howitzer (SPH).

The army's air defence brigade is currently equipped
with the Chinese HN-5/HN-5A man-portable
surface-to-air missile (SAM), supplemented by several
types of anti-aircraft artillery.

The latter includes the twin- barrelled NORINCO (China
North Industries Corporation) 37 mm Type 55 and the
single-barrelled NORINCO 57 mm Type 59, although there
may also be some four-barrelled systems in operation.

The HN-5/HN-5A is due to be replaced by the QW-2
low-altitude SAM system produced by China National
Precision Machinery Import & Export Corporation. A
contract was concluded in September 2004 and delivery
is imminent, with pre-shipment inspection already
concluded.

The QW-2 is a passive infra-red homing fire-and-forget
SAM, the new-generation successor to the QW-1 and in
many respects similar to the Russian Kolomna KBM
Igla-1 (SA-16 'Gimlet') system. This is its first
confirmed export sale.

Bangladesh Army chief Lieutenant General Moeen Ahmed
has meanwhile authorised the raising of a new
artillery regiment to augment six already standing.
This will be equipped with an SPH, which has yet to be
selected.

"We gave the raising order for the regiment in January
and it'll take a year to get established. In the
meantime I've formed a board to evaluate which
self-propelled howitzer might be best for us, with a
155 mm gun perhaps most suitable," Gen Moeen told
Jane's.

"With this and our armoured personnel carriers [APCs],
we can go for a mechanised brigade."

The army currently has a stock of more than 175 APCs,
with a further 60 due for delivery this month. The
additional armoured vehicles are wheeled BTR-80s
obtained from Russia for use in UN peacekeeping
operations.

"My plan is to have one mechanised brigade in each of
our seven divisions, or perhaps start with one
mechanised battalion in each. Funding is a big
problem," Gen Moeen noted.

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Postby Rahul M » 03 Jun 2007 22:57

even so, to claim that IA plans about future keeping BD in mind is preposterous to say the least.

while they may have a reasonable army, given the overwhelming superiority of India's conventional arms platforms in both qualitty and quantity, esp that of the IAF, we should not have a problem in taking out their main weapons and defence infrastructures the day we decide to do so.
same applies if they ever attack us, although I doubt if they would ever be stupid enough to do so.
and surely we are never going to invade BD. no country will find that easy. not even the US.

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Postby Shankar » 04 Jun 2007 00:44

while they may have a reasonable army, given the overwhelming superiority of India's conventional arms platforms in both qualitty and quantity, esp that of the IAF, we should not have a problem in taking out their main weapons and defence infrastructures the day we decide to do so.
same applies if they ever attack us, although I doubt if they would ever be stupid enough to do so.
and surely we are never going to invade BD. no country will find that easy. not even the US.


correct but it is also true the majority of bdesh medium/junior officers are strongly anti indian which I find strange since without us they would not have existed in the first place

Like once in thier capital during a multi national conference all along the road from airport to city there where chinese and paki flags but not a single indian flag

BD must be figured into indian security matrix as a conflict can occur in a two front type situation

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Postby ParGha » 04 Jun 2007 04:23

Rahul M wrote:even so, to claim that IA plans about future keeping BD in mind is preposterous to say the least.

while they may have a reasonable army, given the overwhelming superiority of India's conventional arms platforms in both qualitty and quantity, esp that of the IAF, we should not have a problem in taking out their main weapons and defence infrastructures the day we decide to do so.
same applies if they ever attack us, although I doubt if they would ever be stupid enough to do so.
and surely we are never going to invade BD. no country will find that easy. not even the US.


The question is, why are you assuming they will act alone? Bangladesh is very much a Pearl in China's String. Subtract all the Indian forces needed for Pakistan and China - now how much force can you bring to bear against Banglas?

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Postby Sudhanshu » 04 Jun 2007 05:41

Cease fire!! gentlemen,

As per improving situations now days under the caretaker govt. it seems to me that it would not be too late that all Bangladeshi people realize or educated, that had not been Indian forces in 1971 all their mother and grandmother would have been raped more than once (given statistics of 300,000 raped they all might be raped at least once, I assume) by Pakistani forces and had not been the same Indian forces, all the non-Bengali (who collaborated with Pakis) would have been killed after the libration by the Mukkti Bahani. So, all human live forms in that country implicitly owe to Indian forces.

Conclusion: B'desh won't be a potential threat, until sane and educated people are running that country, which is the case right now, from my perspective.

I guess RAW will have to work overtime to get this kind of job done.

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Strategies !!!

Postby kit » 04 Jun 2007 06:53

I guess a good chanakya strategy would go like this esp if i need to save resources .. cultivate some friends around your enemy by giving them weapons ( fancy ones too ) to the countries lying close to it (neighbours are the best people who are likely to be your enenies) .. and of course they have to pay for these .. so now you have these people dependent on you and of course paying too .. and force your arch enemy to spend resources to deal with these new threats at their doorsteps .. while you not only conserve your resources and find markets for yourself but also hinder your enemys progress ... see china s footprints and 'friends' ... Nepal,Bangladesh,Srilanka,Myanmar,Pakistan are all buying chinese military hardware .. which benefits them politically,economically and strategically .. where r we what kind of strategic thinking do we have ... we are hard put even to maintain a credible military presence in central asia !!

ps : it was not for nothing that somebody said sometime back .. that to progress your neighbours should be your buddies .. at least pretend to be their well wishers .. because its good for YOU ! .. BUT carry a BIG stick always behind your back .. never flaunt it ... but you know just in case .. and give make a good example of one of them once in a while ...keep well wishing all the lit'l chaps and make them feel important...would work nicely for India if some one really cares

And I hate wars !! .. its not good for anyone no one wins and really i dont think anyone in their right mind will want to go to war .. and why kill when you have so many options to put sense into someone :) And finally as chanakya said a war is won when it is not fought .

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 05 Jun 2007 16:36

NORTH OF TAWANG,
ARUNACHAL PRADESH, INDIA
2345 HRS THURSDAY


This close to the Great Himalayan range and thus the altitude, the atmosphere is always light and cold. Cold winds persist during the day and at night it gets worse. Nearing midnight, it becomes impossibly cold for any person who comes here from any other part of the country. Yet, this is the place where the two titans of Asia stare at each other across the border day in and day out. The Indian army has fought here before, back in 1962. It fought with its soldiers equipped with little or no winter equipment or cold weather gear and wearing tennis shoes and personal woollen gear while attempting to stave of hordes of Chinese soldiers. Things were much better now, and the Indian army was much better prepared than back then. The troops had low light goggles and binoculars, assault rifles and arccurate artillery and air support, and warm winter gear. Even so, for Major Patel and his men sitting within the rocks and snow in the extreme cold and dark night, there was an overwhelming sense of Deja vu.

Major Patel had his main force of troops retreat back to the safety of the bend in the road to the west, leaving him, his radiomen, FAC and a platoon sized group of soldiers behind with Shukla’s T-90. The Medics had taken the wounded Commander and Gunner of the other T-90 on stretchers after they had evacuated their T-90 seconds before it had blown up not so long ago. The burning hull of that tank was still smouldering and flames were visible even after exposure to the extreme cold, the turret lying beside the tank also recognisable only by its main gun attachment. The road west was blocked. And Shukla’s T-90 was still stuck on the wrong side of the road.

But Major Patel was not about to leave Captain Shukla alone out here while he watched from safety. He was up forward with the tank. The T-90 was on the road and facing East-Hill, and Patel had distributed his men both north and south of the T-90 to provide infantry protection. He was to the south of the tank, and about two-dozen metres away behind the cover of some rocks along with his FAC and Radioman. He was lying behind a pattern of rocks and peeking above them to look at the Chinese positions using his Binoculars and to keep an eye on things on his own side, while his FAC coordinated with the Artillery Command at Tawang for cover fire as well as suppressive fire on East Hill.

East-Hill itself was under a blanket of smoke, laid down by the Indian artillery guns. Within it were the random orange fireballs erupting into the air as the two Indian batteries at Tawang poured out Harassment and Interdiction rounds among the smoke rounds to keep the Chinese from moving around and to distract them continiously. The Chinese infantry had so far occupied only the top most positions of East-Hill as Captain Shukla’s T-90s had engaged them before they could move down. As a result, the lower positions of the hill were vacated. The Indian artillery fire was thus being restricted by the FAC to the upper occupied positions. But the Chinese were attempting to move down and resume their advance from under the Indian artillery fire. They had not done so for a few minutes but were now visibly beginning to move. It was obvious to the Chinese commander that they could not have just sat there and waited for the artillery to stop.

Further, the smoke cover worked both ways. At one hand it prevented the Chinese from seeing the Indian positions for the time being and at the other hand it also allowed them to move without getting targeted accurately by the tanks. And thermal vision was restricted for both sides at the moment. There were just too many explosions on the Chinese side and hence the residual heat and movement to properly detect human movement from the T-90. However, random movement aside, whenever the Chinese attempted to move in groups, the purposeful human movement could be made out from the random projectile and debris and such targets being engaged by Shukla’s Gunner using HE shells.

Also, to prevent the Chinese from accurately determining the T-90 location from within the smoke, whenever the tank gunner wanted to fire a round at some target, the driver would drive forward at full speed for a hundred metres and stop. The gunner then located and fired his shot, and the driver then reversed the tank back to its original position. Thus, when the tank fire was seen within the smoke and the darkness, the Chinese opened fire at the location but the T-90 not being there, the damage was nullified. Worse, it revealed to the T-90 gunner where from the Missiles had been fired on the hill and this had allowed him to take out three whole Chinese anti-tank missile teams before the Chinese had caught on and stopped taking the bait. That had been some time ago, and apart from the movement now becoming visible on the lower locations of the hill, Captain Shukla had had a relatively peaceful few minutes.

But now the Chinese were coming to the lower positions of the hill, and one recon team who had come lower than the lowest level of the smoke cloud hovering on the hill had been received by the Indian T-90 with an HE shell right in the centre of their group, and when the smoke had cleared, apart from the two Chinese soldiers crawling and writhing on the ground, there had been no other movement. That was thirty seconds ago. Now…there was serious movement and the bulk of the Chinese force was coming down.

The T-90 had not yet engaged, with the gunner looking for important targets like missile teams and machinegun crews and so on. Seconds later the main gun thundered again and in yet another flash of light a HE round left the main barrel and sent a small fireball flying into the air where a Chinese Machinegun crew had been advancing to set up positions only a second ago. The T-90 Gunner checked his Ammo left, and that brought a frown on his face. The T-90 was running out of ammunition after single-handedly firing continuously at the Chinese for the last few minutes. There were hundreds of rounds of 7.62 mm rounds left for both machineguns, but that was not the point. The Gunner informed Captain Shukla of the ammo situation and he called Major Patel on the Radio.

“RODEO Command, this is RODEO-ONE. We…uh…we are running a little low here on the presents for our Communist friends. What should we do? Over.â€
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 05 Jun 2007 18:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ksmahesh » 05 Jun 2007 17:47

Wah Wah what a great episode! Tell me Vivek was litreture your major. If not then it is a masterpiece. I have rarely come accross such stimulating narration. I was already fan of your story telling but now I am graduating to your satellite.
PS: Please post the next part ASAP.

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Postby Sudhanshu » 05 Jun 2007 21:44

I have a quick question

Don't the tanks (advanced like T-90) have some sort of air radar?

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Postby Rahul M » 06 Jun 2007 00:53

that's usually the duty of schilkas and the tunguskas that move with armour to give them protection aginst low level aerial attatck.

having a rad would make your tank light up like a christmas tree. also given the fact that tanks are intended to go into harms way and survive a rad dish is something that surely won't survive a tanks role. imagine a tank breaking through a crumbling house !! would a rad
survive ?? or if a mmg fires at it ??

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Postby Sudhanshu » 06 Jun 2007 03:51

That make sense

Thanks for the answer.

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Postby rsharma » 06 Jun 2007 20:50

Sudhanshu wrote:I have a quick question
Don't the tanks (advanced like T-90) have some sort of air radar?


I 've another..
Do systems like TROPHY offer credible enough defense against ATGMs?

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Postby Igorr » 07 Jun 2007 00:01

rsharma wrote:
Sudhanshu wrote:I have a quick question
Don't the tanks (advanced like T-90) have some sort of air radar?


I 've another..
Do systems like TROPHY offer credible enough defense against ATGMs?
Only against subsonic ones. Not usefull against Krizantema's or BMPT's supersonic ATGMs'.

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Postby Sudhanshu » 09 Jun 2007 10:34

:)
was Vivek too in the same tank?

I am asking because he is not back after the tank got hit.


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