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Possible Indian Military Scenarios - Part IX

p_saggu
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Postby p_saggu » 12 Oct 2007 21:22

"TO EVERY MAN UPON THIS EARTH
COMES DEATH SOON OR LATE

HOW CAN A MAN DIE BETTER
THAN FACING FEARFUL ODDS
FOR THE ASHES OF HIS FATHERS
AND THE TEMPLES OF HIS GODS,

To the sacred memory of the Heroes of Rezang La,
114 Martyrs of 13 Kumaon who fought to the Last Man,
Last Round, Against Hordes of Chinese on 18 November 1962.
Built by All Ranks 13th Battalion, The Kumaon Regiment."
Last edited by p_saggu on 20 Oct 2007 05:36, edited 2 times in total.

vivek_ahuja
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Postby vivek_ahuja » 13 Oct 2007 08:31

<CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE>


The fact that it was momentary was not disputed. The Chinese commanders were simply regrouping, and their first attacks had brought them within three dozen metres of the Indian defences. Despite the expected heavy casualties, the next wave would take them much closer. And the one after that would overrun the Indian defences. The luxury of relaxation between the next attacks was short, and it gave Baweja and his men just enough time to remove the empty cartridges on their weapons and reload fresh and full rounds. Medics were running within the trenches as calls for them now came out.

he Indian soldiers had taken relatively heavy casualties as well. Baweja went around checking his men and asking about their ammunition situation as well as the casualties, and to his satisfaction, he found that although they had taken losses, the fighting morale was still high. Especially after this minor victory. The men were ready and willing to fight.

It was just as well because a few minutes later the first of the Chinese mortar shells began to fall outside of the Indian trenches. The explosions were heavy, and the high vertical trajectory of the shells gave it much more accuracy when trying to hit entrenched defenders as against the heavy tube artillery that had pounded the same positions an hour ago. This was confirmed when at least two shells fell within the trenches and sent dirt and fire racing through the trench lines for many metres, killing several Indian troopers in the process.

But for the most part the Indian lines withstood the barrage that left them covered with smoke and dirt clouds yet again. That was intentional of course, as the reduced visibility gave the Chinese soldiers that much needed cover to charge up the small distance between them and the Indian lines. Sure enough, a chilling yell erupted from outside of the dirt and smoke that signalled the next wave of attacking Chinese infantry as they clambered uphill.

The Indian return fire was quick, heavy, and less accurate than before, thanks to the lowered visibility levels. This time there was no single shot or burst fire, but full automatic fire as the Indian assault guns and machine-guns swept their respective bearings with their deadly bullets. The only way the results were being known from within the smoke was when a shout died half way through and the intensity of the Chinese shouts decreased.

It wasn’t enough, and several Chinese soldiers ran through from within the cloud to end up staring at the Indian defenders from several metres range only. Most were shot before they could reach the trenches, but a few managed to jump into the trenches where they opened fire for barely more than a second before being gunned down from multiple directions from ranges of only a few feet. In all this madness Baweja removed his sidearm from its holster after the rifle magazine was expended, rather than trying to reload at that time.

A yell immediately in front came out as a Chinese soldier came out of nowhere and jumped into the trench to the right of Lt-Colonel Baweja. Baweja dispatched him with three quick rounds from his sidearm before he could bring his rifle into a firing position. The dead Chinese soldier went crashing down on the ground covered with empty cartridges.

It wasn’t over yet, and another two Chinese soldiers appeared behind this first one only to meet the same fate as the first one, albeit without even making it to the trench. Both of them fell only a couple of metres away from the trench. It had taken five rounds from Baweja’s sidearm to get the results. And then it was silent again. Baweja removed the almost empty clip from his sidearm and replaced it with a new one as he stood with his one leg resting on the body of the dead Chinese soldier lying in his trench. He brought up the weapon as he heard sounds coming towards him within the trench.

It was a tense few seconds before he realized that the newcomer was an Indian trooper. Baweja asked him to take position where another Indian soldier now lay motionless. Baweja walked back to where his INSAS was and picked it up, dropping the empty magazine and loading a new one. The sounds of the gunfight had died out, except for the odd single rounds being fired all around.

That was when helicopter noises came out from behind the Indian lines. The ground in front of the trenches suddenly got covered with dust as heavy calibre bullets hit in waves. The Chinese soldiers running on that ground towards the Indian lines were shredded as they ran, and several went dead even before they hit the ground. Then several unguided rockets streaked overhead and smashed into the same ground and sent inverted cones of fire raging into the sky.

The Chinese wave disappeared within the fire for the most part, and sent the survivors racing behind cover and away from the Indian defences. The dust cloud was still heavy over the trenches to see what was going on, but Baweja didn’t need to. He knew exactly what was going on. It became clearer as two stubby helicopters streaked overhead and momentarily cleared the hanging dust clouds to show the blue sky above.

To the besieged Indian soldiers within the trenches, it had never looked clearer…

disha
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Postby disha » 13 Oct 2007 10:09

8) Bravo!

p_saggu
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Postby p_saggu » 13 Oct 2007 10:26

View of the two valleys form Lt Col Baweja's vantage point

Image

ksmahesh
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Postby ksmahesh » 13 Oct 2007 13:21

Vivek,
Words cannot describe the feelings I have after reading your posts. As P_Saggu truly said...........

"How can a Man die Better than facing Fearful Odds,
For the Ashes of His Fathers and the Temples of His Gods,


Vivek, you have an extraordinary gift. Please write more. Pen has always determined nations destinies and you have a mighty one. Write more and publish in a way that masses can get access to it. As far as money for such venture is concerned then I am sure it could be solved.

ksmahesh
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Postby ksmahesh » 13 Oct 2007 13:24

P_Saggu,

Great pictorial representation. Thanks it helps imagination to see how this battle is being faught (atleast in story).

pradeepe
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Postby pradeepe » 13 Oct 2007 13:34

Awesome story telling!

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Postby ajit.d » 14 Oct 2007 02:33

Vivek,

I have been following your scenario rite from the beginning in myanmar.. Your writing is awesome....

Please keep up the good work!!

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Oct 2007 21:46

THE SOUTH CHINA SEA REGION
JUST SOUTH OF THE SOUTHERN EDGE OF THE CHINESE COASTLINE
0715 IST FRIDAY


The skies above were clear. There was partial cloud cover but it was less than fifteen percent in most areas. It was the first pass of the day for this sector as far as the Indian Cartosat satellite was concerned. The DIA and the Navy had been keeping a wary eye on this region for the past three days, and so far it was appearing as if the Chinese Navy, known as the PLAN, was not being deployed in this as yet early stage of the war. But wars of this kind grow old quickly, and it didn’t take long for the satellite to spot the hectic movements taking place at most of the Chinese ports in the south-eastern sectors as well as the southern sectors of the Chinese coastline. The message was clear. The Chinese naval assets were putting out to sea. But there was more disturbing news in store for the Indian Naval Commanders. The last pass over the region had been at exactly ten minutes to midnight, and that was several hours ago. And it took the photo-analysts only a few minutes to recognize the two main differences between the set of photographs taken then and those taken now. There were some berths in the port that were no longer occupied. The Chinese submarines were no longer in the ports.

A quick and actually somewhat frantic search was carried out of the surrounding seas and for the most part no success was achieved, nor was it expected. But a last search at high oblique angles finally spotted what looked like a dark, black cigar shaped structure submerging into the south china sea...and more importantly, heading south.

Fifteen minutes later a Lieutenant-Commander of the Indian Navy walked into the conference room of the NACC where the Defence Minister and the Army and Air-Force officers were winding up their meeting. The look on the naval officer’s face said it all. The Defence minister sighed and sat down again as the map was shifted to a section and zoomed out to now show the entire Indian Ocean region…

parshuram
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Postby parshuram » 16 Oct 2007 13:17

well i wil certainly like o see P 28 ASW Corvettes in action now ... are they part of your story vivek ???? ... Can't Wait

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Postby Singha » 16 Oct 2007 13:23

havent read this thread is ages, but looks like one jcage has been getting
his knickers in a bunch wrt some of the new (and talented) posters here
imagining "me" sneaking around :rotfl:

good fiction gents, keep it up.

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Postby JCage » 16 Oct 2007 13:33

Singha wrote:havent read this thread is ages, but looks like one jcage has been getting
his knickers in a bunch wrt some of the new (and talented) posters here
imagining "me" sneaking around :rotfl:

good fiction gents, keep it up.


Oh my...looks like the blow to H&D and the kicks on the musharraf have been so severe that Singha has to go from thread to thread bawling..here, have a candy.

Actually, I think the people in this thread are doing an excellent job. And they write better than you do, and do more research as well..is that whats burning your musharraf up. :twisted:

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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 13:41

self deleted........
Last edited by ksmahesh on 16 Oct 2007 16:17, edited 1 time in total.

JaiS
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Postby JaiS » 16 Oct 2007 13:49

Diyaaar Singha and JCage,

A-o-A Biraders !! Pliss be to give it a rest. Eid Mubarak. 8)

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Postby niran » 16 Oct 2007 14:15

Dear JC & Singha,
Sir, been reading you two attacking each others since Saturday night (local time) May I suggest my two peas.( its kinda choti muh bari baat)
Both of you can resolve your disagreement in a much better way. You can
use the thingmy called e-mail or the chat. See sir both of you are stalwarts
of BRF (at least in my eyes)it is very embarrassing when two respected
members quarrels in public. methinks it should be done privately.

Meanwhile I am waiting for chinki sub hunt by IN. puki sub hunt by AN

Singha
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Postby Singha » 16 Oct 2007 14:29

well ok , I just trying to flush out some of my mythical alter-ego's Jcage
sees behind every bush but is too scared to name....

its always good to know my 'clones' - useful of psyops
:twisted: (oops sorry jcage pls dont fly into a rage now at the p-word :rotfl:)

I am still waiting for the names. email me the list if you have any e-chandee left.
or write a apology to the admins and sit in your corner.

I am a honest and neutral admirer of good work as on this thread. you
dont need to add the expert commentary. show some class or is that too
much for the local drdo PR peon :rotfl:

you have run away when confronted with a request for details to backup
your loud mouth and arrogant nature. dont embarass yourself anymore,
retire from BR and join the DRDOs new PR wing :eek:

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Postby JCage » 16 Oct 2007 15:14

Dear Singha,

Unlike you I am not sitting jobless dreaming of massaland and massaland psyops and trying to regain shreds of H&d...and running from thread to thread trying to stir things up. Shows your desparation.

What is this, the 5th thread in which you have "begged" for a fight, now? :rotfl:

Keep waiting for my mails...sponge off some other chap please..I'd have to disinfect my computer if I mailed you.

As regards class, you wouldnt know that word if it stepped in front of your face..better that you go back to your usual sadakchaap class, talking of girls/ swinging and all that jazz and leching at them as and when you wish.. and then passing it off as "watching trends"..when called on it!

As regards retiring from BR ...I was not the one whining about retiring from the subforum and doing waah waah...what happened, the psyops and sympathy gambit didnt work? Coming to DRDO peons...well, I dunno mate, they have more class than you do.

Dont trash this thread with your nonsense.

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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 15:22

self deleted.........
Last edited by ksmahesh on 16 Oct 2007 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

JCage
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Postby JCage » 16 Oct 2007 15:24

ksmahesh

Have the honesty and decency to reply to the guy who started this on this thread, two posts up.

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Postby JCage » 16 Oct 2007 15:27

Jai and Ajay,

I had stopped replying to this fellow. This is the umpteenth he has picked a fight again. I didnt even bother replying to him in the other threads.

Check it out for yourselves. Go to the DRDO thread for eg. And in this thread, he started it with the namecalling.

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Postby Singha » 16 Oct 2007 15:28

you have nothing to write wrt to your wild allegations. and you dont have the guts to apologize to me for unfounded claims.

if you did, the matter would long be over. no need to beat around the
bush and drown me in a torrent of words. say "sorry I have no proof and
neither does anyone that <insert my name here> have been trolling
around 'attacking' jcage for whatever reason in the past." cc: a copy
to the admins if you will and let them also do all the R&D they want
stretching back 10 yrs.

I have no idea who you have been fighting with in the gutter or why, you
tend to fly off the handle at the slightest provocation .. though to be
fair you have managed some anger control in past couple years.

live your life peacefully, just dont throw mud on me for no reason.
apologize and move on.

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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 15:32

self deleted...............
Last edited by ksmahesh on 16 Oct 2007 16:20, edited 1 time in total.

JCage
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Postby JCage » 16 Oct 2007 15:33

Singha, you can lie in the gutter with your H&D. None of my claims were unfounded. I have been observing your antics for a long time. I was warned about you repeatedly but chose to ignore it..inciting fights and then watching the fun.

You can keep your techniques where they belong...in the trash.

First incite fights, and then claim to be the moral high ground. Mail people, ask them to start BS psysops campaigns and when they refuse, start with all this jazz. And you claim to have honor?

As regards fighting in the gutter with you - someone who brags of registering with fake ids on fora- Mr Peruvian M2k pilot- and is a canny operator, you think I am stupid enough to fall for YOUR tactics?

Think again.

Go back to your p0rn and leching and adolescent comments.
Last edited by JCage on 16 Oct 2007 15:37, edited 1 time in total.

JCage
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Postby JCage » 16 Oct 2007 15:36

ksmahesh wrote:Jcage
The fact is : problem lies with you.

You first accuse someone of fictitious act
eg: Singha of having multiple clones.

But fail to provide any logic or reason or evidence behind your rants.....

When people (Singha in present case) ask you to mail them, you not only ignore their post but also destroy our peace by writing such vitriolic posts...

In short you are the one responsible for derailing of threads..... If some one points you out that much... you go ballastic... (Just like in present case I am expecting you to)


I have already brought up whatever I can wherever...you are NOT one of them.

As regards ballistic, if I check your posts, they include multiple personal attacks on me, so i really dont expect you to be neutral.

As can be seen by the fact that you didnt even have the decency to ask Singha not to stop his personal attacks but chose to fixate on me.

Lastly- I am not interested in being in touch with you or Singha.

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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 15:40

self deleted..............
Last edited by ksmahesh on 16 Oct 2007 16:20, edited 1 time in total.

vivek_ahuja
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Postby vivek_ahuja » 16 Oct 2007 15:43

Guys, may I offer the Peace pipe to everyone here?

the tit for tat posts are leading us only down only one path, and that is to the trash can. this will happen as soon as some admin boss takes a look in here.

furthermore, newer members like me and others are put in awkward situations when two long time members start off fighting. It's not good for BR and it's not good for this Thread. Please hold your fire!

may I suggest that everybody just clean up their posts and forget the issue? if this thread is locked or sent to the trashcan then everybody loses out, don't they?

in other words, let's back off. Singha and Ksmahesh Saar, please hold off any other posts on this issue here. comment on the thread topic if you must, but please no personal attacks. Jcage saar, your inputs on the scenario posts are welcome. do post them. but please discontinue these responses as well. otherwise, there is no end in sight.

Vivek Ahuja

JCage
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Postby JCage » 16 Oct 2007 15:45

But apparently you are very much eager to accuse some one with whatever you wish.


I replied to his BS claims of registering with fake ids.

If you KNOW any clones of Singha then disclose them now or else

1. You should ask for apology to Singha and Admins.
2. You should desist from making such claims in future


Apni aukad main rahon. YOU dont run this place to give ultimatums.

I made the comments after providing what I know to whosoever is concerned. That is it.

I am not concerned about WHAT *YOU* think. Get that? I dont run forum campaigns and I dont need a fellow like you to provide gyaan.

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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 15:49

self deleted..............
Last edited by ksmahesh on 16 Oct 2007 16:21, edited 1 time in total.

JCage
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Postby JCage » 16 Oct 2007 15:51

I sincerely hope this fellow (Jcage learns some manners) stops being a troll.
PS: This is my last post on matter.


What a character...
Cant resist getting in two bits even while claiming to leave..and talks of manners and "trolling".. :roll:

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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 15:54

Vivek

Hope you find time for the next post on the soon. Eagerly looking forward to the encounter of INS Chola with Chinki sub/s...

A post from you or Shankar is what we need. It will clear the air here

vivek_ahuja
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Postby vivek_ahuja » 16 Oct 2007 16:13

Vivek

Hope you find time for the next post on the soon. Eagerly looking forward to the encounter of INS Chola with Chinki sub/s...

A post from you or Shankar is what we need. It will clear the air here


Actually that was what i was thinking about doing before i suddenly noticed that things had abruptly shifted from the south China sea to up somebody's Musharaff. :lol:

thanks to all parties for putting that behind us. But back to the point, I will post the next scene as soon as i finish editing it.

P.S.: May i request the concerned parties to perhaps clean up/delete their posts so that we can return the thread to where it was in terms of the actual topic of the thread?

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Postby JaiS » 16 Oct 2007 16:16

Diyaar Jcage and Singha biraders,

pliss pee to note that as far as I am concerned, all I can do is to just request you prathers, and that is apout it. The one reason why I am doing so, is that poth of you fellow bious biraders are contriputors to the PeeAref and your contriputions are very valuable, and you guys know this already. I want to avoid any incidents of phriendly phire and thence my posts.

Diyaar Prather Singha,

Pliss be to note that any issues with prather JCage would pest pee resolved through bersonal email, rather than mentioning apout them in every thread. Pliss be upon you. Pliss be upon PeeAref.

Awaiting prather Lalmullah to sbread some nice bious and bissfull phoam here

ksmahesh
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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 16:24

vivek_ahuja wrote: concerned parties to perhaps clean up/delete their posts so that we can return the thread to where it was in terms of the actual topic of the thread?


So I have done whatever I could..... Now eagerly waiting for the next part.

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Postby Mahendra » 16 Oct 2007 16:56


ksmahesh
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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 17:02



Must have been due to pressure phrom Jirga-e-BRF. :rotfl: Who is Zingha sir - The mulla with white beard or the one with "safed" beard........?

Let me caution you this peace is as fragile as between India and porkistan

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 16 Oct 2007 17:57

THE ANDAMAN AND NICOBAR COMMAND (ANC)
THE SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN OCEAN REGION

0720 HRS (IST) FRIDAY

One of the first people to be informed about the Chinese naval threat apart from the CNS was the Commander of the Andaman and Nicobar Command, or the ANC, and who in turn, ordered the immediate launch of a single IL-38 that was on the ground at Port Blair and also ordered two Do-228s to be prepared for the Maritime surveillance mission. The activity at Port Blair was hectic, and the ATC was a busy place. Flights were being diverted as space was being created for the Military aircrafts to scramble off the ground. Civilian flights that were on the ground were now ordered to stay there for the time being, and the already crowded tarmac was emptying fast. The weather was wonderful as far as flying was concerned, and a nice bright sun was up in the sky.

Several different aircrafts were being scrambled today. After the four engine rumble of the IL-38 filled the sky and the massive beast lifted off the ground, there was a line of spectators to see it go. And most of them did not miss the fact that this grey colored bird was carrying some long, thin cylinders below its wings. There were some informed spectators among the watchers who knew exactly what it was, and the fact that it was carrying those things at this time of crisis meant only one thing. Trouble was on its way. A few minutes after the departure of the IL-38, the noise of an engine spooling up again filled the airfield grounds as the rotor blades of the Ka-31 began to rotate as the pilots started up the systems on board on the directions of the ground crewmen. Three minutes later it was ordered into the air, and the stubby helicopter lifted off the ground and headed east, deploying its AEW Radar after the undercarriage had been retracted and the flight altitude increased.

This was the ISR Node that the ANC was waiting to get in the air. At the ANC C3I, Operators from all three services were sitting in the large control centre where the massive radar plot of the entire region under ANC control was visible. As soon as the Ka-31 deployed its radars, the existing radar range plot expanded substantially, and brought into view a lot of unknowns. Many were quickly classified as harmless, being either airlines or civilian aircrafts. Some were identified as the military aircrafts belonging to the Indonesian Air Force, and some others that belonged to the Malaysian Air Force. Finally, some were identified as belonging to the Myanmar Air force. Most of the last mentioned were flying combat missions against the Loyalists in the southern half of the country as the civil war in Myanmar was raging.

The aerial surveillance of the region was being handled by the somewhat inadequate Indian Navy Ka-31s because of the total lack of the Phalcon AWACS that were now totally committed to the battles on the borders of India and China. There were simply no other aircrafts in this capability that could be diverted to the ANC for this role. As a result, the navy had stationed three of these helicopters with the ANC for the last three days with the understanding that should they be required for any surface fleet taskforce, then they would be directed accordingly. In any case, for the time being the Navy had a large enough fleet of the AEW Helicopters for its current role. In the EW role, however, the ARC had based a single B-707 on the islands. This was the next aircraft to lift off the ground with all four of its engines screaming at full power. This was the second node of the aerial ISR network, and the presence of this aircraft allowed the ANC C3I centre to establish SIGINT and ELINT on the going-ons of the region.

It had been doing this job for the last three days with respect to Myanmar’s southern regions, trying to find out intelligence on the civil war going on there. Now, however, the aircraft headed east, and its eyes were and ears were scanning the straits of Malacca. Finally, the last group of aircrafts to begin deployment were what amounted to the teeth of the ANC air defence. The No. 6 Squadron had deployed to the islands at the beginning of the crisis three days ago, and were now on the ground at the various small airfields that had been brought up to working standard in the last few years. Three alert ready SU-30MKIs lifted off the ground even as one of the last military aircraft on the ground began to spool up its engines. This was the single IL-78 Mid-Air Tanker bird that was allocated to the ANC. By the current standards, and operational demands, the single tanker aircraft was woefully inadequate, but it was all that the IAF could afford to allocate here. And even this had been taken off its ORBAT after much heartburn at high command, which was already struggling to cope with the demands of the air operations along the Tibet and AP Borders.

This single IL-78 would therefore be hard pressed to refuel all available strike assets. To reduce this workload, two of the SU-30MKIs that were also on the ground were being fitted with the Buddy-refuelling equipment. This forced them to be taken off the ORBAT but also allowed the ANC to keep at least a decent number of aircrafts in the air at any one time.

Besides, the air threat was not perceived to be severe as the only Chinese aircraft carrier was still under construction at the shipyards.



SOUTHERN CHINA
0725 IST FRIDAY


Far from the frontlines, and away from any observation, sixteen Chinese aircrafts were being loaded with expensive ordinance at three different airfields. Eight other aircrafts were being fuelled up to act as the tankers for the twenty SU-30MKK fighter-bombers and SU-33 fighters of the PLAN who were getting ready to lift off the ground at various airfields. The timing had been chosen properly. There was thick dark clouds above many Chinese airbases, and that meant that as the eight tanker versions and sixteen cruise-missile carrier versions of the H-6 lifted off one after another, they escaped the view of the Indian satellites. The DIA thus remained unaware of the bomber threat, and no warnings were initiated to anybody. They did, however, see the fighters getting ready, but the threat was analysed as being future based. The only warning the ANC received was about the fighters being made ready for combat, probably after several hours, no less.

In the meantime, the twenty four heavy Chinese aircrafts turned southwards, at which point they were soon over Myanmar airspace, where a few of the pro-Chinese rebel MIG-29 fighters formed up alongside the massive formation as it headed south against an unsuspecting island fortress.

ksmahesh
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Postby ksmahesh » 16 Oct 2007 18:37

No Please not a pearl harbour....... :(

Vivek do something we donot want pearl harbour like attack on AN..... Can some intelligence passed from pro-govt remenants of Myanmar army alert our forces about the nature and scle of attack??????? :-?

An is our backbone in BoB it should not be destroyed. Deploy all defensive weapons; put all Su30MKIs in air; also put all birds from vikramaditya also in air to prevent this from happening but please let AN survive..... :cry: :cry:

PS: Sorry for giving vent to my 2 paisa. Continue on the plan you have decided.

deovratsingh
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Postby deovratsingh » 16 Oct 2007 23:44

Vivek,

You have portrayed Indian defence Forces always on defensive, outgunned, outnumbered and always scrambling with assetts (against Chinese)? In every fights against Chinese you have shown PLA to have upper hand with initial numerical superiority, they are reday to die and eager to sacrifice their troops to achieve a objective, more so than Indian commanders. We all well know, in the war there is no prize for second place and runners up. Either you win or loose ( and then you live in shame for ever). There is no greater price to pay in long term than after loosing.

The Indian army and India as a nation has hopefully has learned that lesson after 1962, and is committed not to let it happen no matter what the price thay have to pay. If a small countries like UK, Middle Eastern (and even Israeli's) have that kind of strong will, then why not India ( which has a longer glorious past?). I don't think the picture you have painted, is a reality against either PLA or Pakis ? I don't believe either that the PLA has that much overpwering capabilities(vis a vis Indian Defence Forces) which you have scripted. The PLAAF is still flying most of their obsolete fighters except few squadrons of (less capable) MKKs.

By the way, excellent story, description of battles and skirmishes, creation of various scenarios and attention to even minute details. It's fun to read.

Regards,

DSingh.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 17 Oct 2007 03:54

You have portrayed Indian defence Forces always on defensive, outgunned, outnumbered and always scrambling with assetts (against Chinese)? In every fights against Chinese you have shown PLA to have upper hand with initial numerical superiority, they are reday to die and eager to sacrifice their troops to achieve a objective, more so than Indian commanders. We all well know, in the war there is no prize for second place and runners up. Either you win or loose ( and then you live in shame for ever). There is no greater price to pay in long term than after loosing.


I was wondering why nobody has brought this point up. Since you have finally done so, let me take this opportunity to vent some of my frustrations. Kindly bear with me.

You are absolutely right when you say that I tend to portray the Indian forces as generally on the defensive as against any offensives. There are a number of reasons for that. one of the smaller ones is of course time. Look at the timescale. It is just been two whole days of combat so far. With that said, and without trying to give the plot away, all I have to say is that it is something to consider. Think about it.

The major point here is of course that of command and control. India is a country where the military has always been under civilian control. It has an army for the state and not the other way around as Pakistan or the PRC. As a result, major strategic movements or operations are always supposed to be cleared by the nation’s government leaders beforehand. Therein lies the problem. India has only rarely had a government that has understood modern warfare at all, forget about knowing its art form. It has always used the Military option only as the last resort except in the rare odd case. The result has been that this country has always been attacked or taken by surprise. The fact that we still won the wars is because of the fact that the Indian armed forces are extremely resilient and flexible at war. As a general result, take the government of today and try and put them in the difficult scenario I have been posting and tell me how they would react rather than how you would expect them to react. Whether Manmohan Singh or the current President will order sweeping maneuvers the moment the war starts or will they drag their feet as usual, vacillating and deciding. In a manner of speaking, the scenario I have is for the more optimistic case where the government leaders are actually more proactive and aggressive than what is normally the case in India.

That brings me to the second major point: military assets. What you are seeing is a war on a regional scale. There are many fronts, and many unconnected battles. It’s a war in three dimensions and it’s all simultaneous. Now, as an example, take a look at the IAF and PLAAF tanker fleets. Both of them are extremely small as compared to the massive fleets of the US, but still, the PLAAF fleet of H-6s and the newer purchases (last time I checked they were planned) of the IL-78s is still much larger and will become larger still in the coming years (where my scenario is built in) as more and more older variants of the H-6 are converted into the tankers. Final numbers suggest more than thirty conversions! On our side, we have Six! With plans for six more that may or may not generate results before the next five years. Six! Against thirty. You can say something like: “but ours is the IL-78 against theirs H-6â€

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Postby Sudhanshu » 17 Oct 2007 05:29

deovratsingh wrote:Vivek,

You have portrayed Indian defence Forces always on defensive, outgunned, outnumbered and always scrambling with assetts (against Chinese)? In every fights against Chinese you have shown PLA to have upper hand with initial numerical superiority, they are reday to die and eager to sacrifice their troops to achieve a objective, more so than Indian commanders. We all well know, in the war there is no prize for second place and runners up. Either you win or loose ( and then you live in shame for ever). There is no greater price to pay in long term than after loosing.

The Indian army and India as a nation has hopefully has learned that lesson after 1962, and is committed not to let it happen no matter what the price thay have to pay. If a small countries like UK, Middle Eastern (and even Israeli's) have that kind of strong will, then why not India ( which has a longer glorious past?). I don't think the picture you have painted, is a reality against either PLA or Pakis ? I don't believe either that the PLA has that much overpwering capabilities(vis a vis Indian Defence Forces) which you have scripted. The PLAAF is still flying most of their obsolete fighters except few squadrons of (less capable) MKKs.

By the way, excellent story, description of battles and skirmishes, creation of various scenarios and attention to even minute details. It's fun to read.

Regards,

DSingh.


Honestly, I didn't read the Vivek's long reply yet.

But, only thing I would say, last time I checked, Chinese spend many times more on defense than we are and they are continuously developing their defenses to develop a first strike capability against US forces and to at least cripple them if not destroy them completely in Taiwanese sea area. I cannot see why they wouldn't be much better or more in numbers than us in future. I know reality sound bitter. But, we have to bear it.

Moreover, in event of war with India, China would do everything to pursued his best friend Pakistan to just show some activity at border, so that India cannot have nerve to divert its resources from western borders to the eastern front. Thankfully or whatever, Vivek, till now, didn't take this thing in account, otherwise, the scenario might have been more painful for us.

Only upsides we have:
-Unlike Chinese we are not over confident. They still consider us weak.
-Our Military is not Politically driven like PRC.
-Unlike 1962 when Nehru doesn't have enough nerve to use the superior IAF at that time against Chinese. Now, in this scenario, someone is incharge who knows what he is doing and have guts to take risks.
-They are coming to attack our home, where we have rigid defenses and short supply lines, that might be one more advantage. I remember long time back someone has said, "none can defeat India in Indian Ocean".

It is up to Vivek and his ingenuity to exploit these things, to turn the tide in our favor.

Moreover, from writer perspective too, the HARD earned victory is always more interesting than some one sided battle in our favor supported by reasons.

From a reader's perspective, I like surprises, let's see what Vivek has in store. How does ANC defends itself from annihilation. Or, lets see the repercussion of the attack will that charge up the Navy or Moral will run low after suffering impending disaster. The best time to test someone is in bad times only.

Last but not least, just enjoy it!


P.S. I realize so many mistakes to edit this post.
I am typing from work and my project manager is Chinese :)


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