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Possible Indian Military Scenarios - Part X

kit
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Postby kit » 16 Mar 2008 15:16

Wont the chinese want to test their carrier busting ballistic missiles instead of using their warships or sukhois .. aka shashaojian on the Indian carrier Group ? what is the chances of survival against a massed attack by the shashaojians alone ?

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Postby Shankar » 16 Mar 2008 18:22

EASTERN NAVAL COMMAND –VIZAG

Vice admiral Prakash Rao knew about the threat of a possible massed PLAN medium range ballistic missile strike against the Indian carrier groups in the pacific but agin deduced quite correctly such an attack though possible but not likely mainly due to following reasons

1) launching a salvo of ballistic missiles in pacific can have horrendous nuclear back lash from USA –who may not wait to verify the range of incoming missiles before launching an overwhelming nuclear strike at mainland china .The presence of large USN bases at Midway –Hawaii and of course Sandi ego California will in fact make such a panicked retaliatory strike inevitable

2) The accuracy of the DF 21C missiles have never been proven against a constantly moving target like a carrier group and their CEP under such a dynamic situation was around 500 meters which meant it can still miss the Indian carrier group and end up vaporizing lot of salt water and getting nuked by US in the bargain.

IN navy enjoyed an unmatched location advantage ,and the Chinese system was not proven beyond doubt –it was chance worth taking and Rear Admiral Prakash Rao took it .Only time will tell if has taken the right command decision.



Dragon's teeth - Chinese missiles raise their game
By Robert Hewson

China now builds and supplies missiles that can be used in combat from the beach, across the coastal/littoral environment, and out to extended-range engagements far over the horizon. This has largely been achieved through an evolutionary process of staged improvement.
At the same time, China has shown that it can embrace entirely new concepts to serve the essential operational requirements of the People's Liberation Army, the navy and naval air force, and the air force.

The potential use of tactical ballistic missiles against targets at sea is the best example of this and the intent that drives the process is clear: China has spent a great deal of time analysing how best to neutralise US naval forces in the Pacific - in particular the carrier strike groups.
C-602
The C-602 stands apart from the rest of China's anti-ship missiles because it is such a radical departure in terms of range and accuracy. It is effectively a cruise missile, repackaged for the maritime attack role. Its basic design is clearly scalable and the C-602's performance today is probably at the lower end of this configuration's theoretical capabilities. It has been offered on the export market since 2005.

At first sight the C-602 export designation would suggest a linkage to the much older C-601 missile (YJ-6/YJ-61 family), a 1960s-era Chinese design based on the Soviet SS-N-2 'Styx'. However, the turbojet-powered C-602 is a completely new, very modern design with a maximum range of 280 km.
Going ballistic

Most of what China has accomplished in the development of its anti-ship missile -capabilities parallels that of Europe, the US and elsewhere. But one element of China's ship-killing strategy stands out as a remarkable application of technology, and an unprecedented threat.

In Chinese terms, this is a Shashaojian - the assassin's mace - a 'silver bullet' weapon that would, literally, drop from the clear blue sky.
A 2004 report by the US Office of Naval Intelligence made it plain that China was developing the capability to use its DF-21 tactical ballistic missiles (TBMs) against tar¬gets at sea. The DF-21 carries a single warhead of about 500/600 kg over a distance of 1,500 km to 2,000 km, or more.

Designed as a nuclear delivery system, the DF-21 can also be fitted with a conventional payload. If made to work, such a weapon would be
a 'carrier killer' without equal.

China develops anti-ship missile
By Ted Parsons JDW Correspondent
Virginia, US
The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) is in the advanced stages of developing a revolutionary anti-ship ballistic missile to supplement its well known Ying-Ji family of anti-ship cruise missiles.
The development programme has been confirmed by both US government and Asian military sources, with the latter estimating that the PLA may be able to deploy the space targeting systems needed to make its anti-ship ballistic missile operational by 2009.
PLA efforts to provide terminal guidance capabilities to both its 600 km-range DF-15 (CSS-6) short-range ballistic missile and DF-21 (CSS-5) medium-range ballistic missile with a range of 2,150 km, or 2,500 km for the DF-21A (CSS-5 Mod 2), have been known since the mid-1990s. The existence of a terminally guided DF-21C has long been reported. Asian military sources said that the PLA will be using a version of the DF-21 for its ballistic anti-ship missions.
However, the PLA would need to make substantial advances in missile guidance and countermeasures in order to achieve the very high precision required to attack a moving target. To do so, the US Office of Naval Intelligence noted: "The current TBM force would be modified by changing some to the current missiles' re-entry vehicles to manoeuvring re-entry vehicles with radar or infra-red seekers to provide the accuracy needed to attack ships at sea."

393 of 3,606 words
© 2006 Jane's Information Group
[End of non-subscriber extract
Planned and programmed a decade ago, the PLA is now believed to have at least 700 conventional surface-to-surface missiles allocated throughout at least seven brigades deployed in southeast China under a unified regional missile command. Each brigade is said to have between four and six battalions, each with three-four launch companies, each equipped with at least two launchers. With between 75 and 100 new missiles being deployed each year, these missiles are expected to have ranges extending from 300 to 1700 kilometers. The newest generation of conventional ballistic missile may include the DF-21C, a missile that has been under development since 1995. It may be equipped with a terminal guidance system that could preclude engagement by terminal missile defenses. It also could also range U.S. bases in the region, and, armed with a maneuvering payload, could complicate the U.S. carrier operations in the western Pacific. Reporting from Taiwan indicates that the PLA may be deploying about 200 land attack cruise missiles this year, with more coming on line in the years to come.


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Postby peter » 16 Mar 2008 19:51

kit wrote:Wont the chinese want to test their carrier busting ballistic missiles instead of using their warships or sukhois .. aka shashaojian on the Indian carrier Group ? what is the chances of survival against a massed attack by the shashaojians alone ?


Perhaps this has been discussed a lot but are the "real" reasons for first defeat against chinese understood? Are the gaps from first indo-china war "plugged"?

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Postby Shankar » 17 Mar 2008 14:27

INS VIKRAMADITYA – SOME WHERE IN SOUTH PACIFIC

Rear Admiral Hyder Ali his watch and smiled for the first time in last 3 days .At last his task force was near the designated blocking position. The updated tactical plot showed the PLAN fleet was approaching Virat group and presently 1200 kms south east of Virat and 2000 kms north west of his flag ship. The PLAN will be in a position to launch a long range missile attack on Virat in another 48 hrs or if they maintain the present course and speed . He will make another course change after the Chinese satellite pass due in 3 hours time so that he is in a position to block the escape of the PLAN group eastwards and also launch his aircraft to protect the Virat in case of a land based air strike is launched by PLAAN/PLAAF . The latest intelligence report suggested it may be already over due.

It was time for evening Namaz and Hyder liked to communicate with the almighty in western corner of the flight deck in the niche where the ground crew take “shelterâ€

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Postby Shankar » 17 Mar 2008 15:06

Removal of dorsal auxiliary intakes made room for additional fuel in the leading edge root extension increasing fuel capacity to 5720 liters 0r 4460 kgs of nett usable fuel.The total fuel load with three drop tanks consequently increased to 6500 kg .A fuel dumping system was also incorporated to lighten the aircraft to maximum landing weight of 15300 kgs in the event of an emergency landing .The air to air refueling probe is installed to port ahead of the wind screen and is fully retractable l shaped device allowing it to be refueled by any aircraft equipped with UPAZ 1 A podded hose drum unit . To facilitate nigh refueling the probe was illuminated by a special retractable light so was the arrestor hook for night landing on the carrier deck

As rear admiral Hyder Ali kneeled down for the evening prayer the first of the Mig 29k made a fly by the deck at barely 1000 ft ,climbed up to 3000 ft in the distance and turned in for the final approach .With the landing lights on along with the wheel base signal lamps and tail hook fully stretched into the slipstream ,nose angle high up and flaps fully deployed in landing configuration the first of the fulcrums thumped down on the deck with a resounding crash .Even before the arrestor wires have been detached and the aircraft pushed out of the landing zone the second fulcrum have finished lining up and started its descent at more than 200 mtrs/min and 140 knots indicated air speed on its display panel .

-clear deck for aircraft recovery and confirm
-deck ready for aircraft
- russel two –you are cleared to land –descent rate good – slightly higher on the glide scope –air speed also high
-roger that mother one – taking care of glide path and air speed –confirm ok

The second fulcrum came in slow and steady .With full complement of air to air missiles under its wing and belly it was a tricky landing particularly with the setting sun as background –a bit of last minute course correction based on LSO s signal and it was down snagging the second of the four arrestor wires. The third Mig 29K was in the meantime slipped into final approach

All in all a normal day in the life aboard Vikramaditya

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Postby Shankar » 17 Mar 2008 18:09

INS AKRAMAN – AKULA 2 TYPE SSN –OFF THE COAST OF YULIN NAVAL FACILITY- SOUTH CHINA SEAS

Captain Raina studied the just downloaded message from naval headquarters which did mention briefly about the Kilo sinking in pacific by Vijay few days back .According to naval intelligence a massive submarine hunting exercise is likely any time and for the first time he was “authorized to fire in self defense “ which he interpreted as a permission to fire at will as long as he did not get sunk.

He was now patrolling on “silent mode “off the shore of Yulin naval base between Yulin harbor entrance and Sanya bay with an average ocean depth more than 800 meters allowing him to practice his deep diving skills and totally beyond reach of any PLAN submarines.

But Captain Raina was not at the moment interested in the antique submarines of PLAN .His ship was designed for a much higher kill level and his target was one of the large guided missile destroyers getting ready to leave the protected harbor with an escort of 2 frigates ,possibly to join the main invasion fleet or just sanitize the harbor entry channel .

- captain has the con
- down scope- ESM
- engine –con- prepare for dive
- helmsman-make your depth 200 meters-dive angle 10 degree
- aye con –making depth 200 meters – diving angle 10 degree
- con –ESM - radar search alert –possible sovermanny class
- Engine –con – emergency dive now
- Helmsman make dive angle 20 degree – make your depth 350 meters
-Torpedo room load tubes 1 2 and 3 heavies(635 mm) –confirm when loaded

PLAN SOVERMANNY CLASS DESTROYER – 091 –EXITING YULIN NAVAL BASE

Captain Li was always serious and never smiled .He was a dedicated navy man but not very enthusiastic about party politics .The net result –the last promotion that came his way was 10 yrs back and now just a year away from retirement he was assigned a routine anti submarine patrol and report to the rear admiral 5 yrs his junior. He hated his job and hated himself as he watched impassively at the receding shore lines of sprawling naval base

-Captain –ESM –we have a disappearing radar contact -30 nautical miles – 215 –two sweeps of radar only
-Sonar –captain – have you identified nature of contact
-Negative captain – radar return was for a small vessel possibly a fishing trawler
-Very well sonar keep a close watch –inform bridge any development

Li was alert but not unduly worried .The news of multiple kilo going down have been blocked by PLAN senior admirals to avoid unnecessary panic . This decision would cost them dear.

INS AKRAMAN – AKULA 2 TYPE SSN –OFF THE COAST OF YULIN NAVAL FACILITY- SOUTH CHINA SEAS

Captain Raina sipped the hot coffee as he looked at the combat plot projected on the main screen .The PLAN anti submarine flotilla was spreading out immediately exiting the harbor channel with the Sovermanny class guided missile destroyer in the lead .He can outrun them if required but then that will expose his position to whole world .The other option was to lie low and real quite hoping the brief radar contact as they were submerging would not trigger and all out hunt ,allow the force to pass over and then take them out one at a time in the deep sea where he had the advantage

-Engine make speed 3 knots – all ship on quite mode
-Aye captain –ship rigged for quite ops –making speed 3 knots –depth 350 meters
-Con –torpedo –heavies loaded in tubes 1 2 and 3 – tubes not flooded –firing solution not available
- Con -sonar –we don’t have a clear firing solution on all three
- Sonar –con –track and identify only
- con sonar we have now three surface contacts – classify one as sovermanny class – course 180 –speed 12 knots increasing -34 kms

The shark waited for her chance to kill –waited for her prey to pass overhead –poised for a blinding quick strike and escape –for the time being she was not interested in small prey only the large 9000 ton guided missile destroyer will do.

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Postby nits » 17 Mar 2008 20:04

i just have one word "Marvelous"

This battle will rename the sea around China, it will be renamed as Red Sea - Red with blood of Chinese Navy :lol:

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Postby Sudhanshu » 19 Mar 2008 11:09

Would not Chinese go insane after this attack. They will come from sea, air and use every mean to pin down the Akula. After all, she is near to their home. They might have all assets readily available.

Let's see what shankar has in store. May be, after all we might learn about Akula counter measure systems too.

---------------
Whosoever is thinking about writing Army component, might use the current Tibbet freedom struggle thing in their context.

I just saw a video on youtube, where PLA soldier was killing unarmed Tibetan, without any reason.

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Postby Dilbu » 19 Mar 2008 13:46

Sudhansu bhai can you paste the link to that video in our tibet thread?

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Postby Shankar » 19 Mar 2008 15:16

SOUTH SEA FLEET HEADQUARTERS - ,ZHANJIANG -CHINA

Admiral Zhang Yushu was mildly worried as he sipped the luke warm green tea his executive officer provided . The Indian navy old carrier group was not as easy to take out as he originally thought off .At the moment the PLAN strike fleet consisting of 4 Sovermanny class destroyers with equal number of supporting frigates and fleet oilers was approximate 630 kms south east of Virat carrier group . They were under instructions to launch a salvo of Moskit anti ship missiles at maximum range saturating its air defense system .But for that it has to get within the effective strike range of around 160 kms preferably within 100 kms . A difficult situation since surely the old sea harriers Virat carried still could launch a devastating anti ship strike with sea eagle missiles even before the PLAN strike force comes anywhere within strike range

So the obvious solution was to saturate the air defense capability of Virat with a simultaneous air strike using the Sukhoi 27 s from shore based strike points with mid air refueling and aerial command and control support .The strike force should carry for anti ship and anti air weapons thus forcing to use Virat group to use up its anti missile weapon inventory as well as block its ability to launch an air attack on the PLAN strike force.

The aerial tankers (2 nos) IL78 and 2 AWAC s ,a -50 mainstays were about to be launched and the Sukhois will follow ,topping up their tanks over international waters before going for a quick strike at Virat ,giving the PLAN surface strike force to close into anti ship missile strike range .

Admiral Zhang Yushu knew it is a good plan and he was sure the experienced air and surface battle commanders on board the A-50 s will be able to co ordinate the air and surface strike efficiently. The group of A-50/IL 78 s will be protected by 4 Su-30 MKK s with full load of air to air missiles and even if Indian Su-30 s try anything launching from their Philippines base- Admiral Zhang Kyushu knew it will not be very effective.

There were however quite a few unknown factors .To start with he had no clear idea about the capability of the much vaunted Brahmos missiles and more particularly their accuracy at maximum range. He also did not know the exact combat capability of the Mig 29ks in an air domination fight over ocean without any effective ground control. He was totally unaware of the KS-172 s being loaded on four Su-30s and ready to take off. He could just not predict the effect of so many unknowns and so while sipping tea in the air conditioned south sea fleet command centre he just could not predict the outcome of the coming battle.

He did not know right at the moment Vikramaditya was changing course slowly and coming into a blocking position behind the PLAN surface strike fleet

He knew of the three kilos sent to attack Virat have been sunk unceremoniously but thought it “wiseâ€

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Postby Sudhanshu » 19 Mar 2008 17:02

Dilbu wrote:Sudhansu bhai can you paste the link to that video in our tibet thread?


I was watching the protest videos and randomly watched that (from related video field), if I come across again I will post that. I will try to search it.

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Postby Shankar » 19 Mar 2008 17:03

SIBERIAN FOX FLIGHT -2 X MIG 29K COMBAT AIR PATROL OFF INS VIKRAMADITYA

Commander Sudhir Naik nudged the control stick forward and side ways putting his aircraft on shallow turning dive just to get rid of the boredom of extended combat air patrols over an endless ocean. He has already scanned the display consoles 345 times and checked the weapon console 289 times and now nearing the end of his sortie and looked forward to the evening movie “iron eagle 2â€

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Postby Surya » 19 Mar 2008 17:30

All in all the modifications like these in power plants, in avionics and fire control radar made Mig 29K s only aircraft other than Su-33 s capable of taking on any air defense mission over water


:D

Oh what the hell - it is Shankarosky

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Postby Hari Sud » 19 Mar 2008 17:34

Way too much background; Can it be reduced so that we do not loose sight of battles about to begin near Midway Islands; Gulf of Siam; near the Andaman Nicobar Islands etc.


Hari

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Postby k prasad » 19 Mar 2008 18:59

Hari Sud wrote:Way too much background; Can it be reduced so that we do not loose sight of battles about to begin near Midway Islands; Gulf of Siam; near the Andaman Nicobar Islands etc.


Hari


I agree... background is absolutely necessary, but could we limit it to only what is needed or is essential to understand the future combat scenarios. Knowing the length of cabling on the ship wouldn't really help in understanding how the PLAN will lose the war (although that information could have been supplied to Sevmash docks and saves them 2 years on the AG. :twisted: )

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Postby gopal.suri » 19 Mar 2008 20:28

:( the background i due to a lot of bhailog's here who will like to believe rajnikanth and not shankarosky.

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Postby Shankar » 20 Mar 2008 13:03

BLACK COBRA FLT 4XSU-30 MKI -CLARKS AIR FORCE BASE- PHILLIPINES -0600 HRS

Group captain Nilesh Khanna did the final go around before setting into the cockpit of his Su 30 MKI MK3 .Both the inner wing pylons were loaded with KS 172 long range air to air missiles and the rest of the pylons with assorted mix of air to air missiles like R-77/R-73 s and ECM pods . All pylons to weapon connections looked good and he could not spot any hydraulic leakage. The other three sukhoi 30mkis were also ready and armed and waiting for the launch command their pilots and WSO s already strapped in.

The signal has just come in from the Japanese air defense command .Four PLAAF aircraft have taken up station 250 kms north east of Okinawa Jima and that included two each of A-50 s and IL-78s . So far no aerial refueling have started but they expected to detect the incoming Chinese strike package anytime soon and start to refuel but nothing was certain at this point of time .

Up in the air traffic control tower Air Commodore Shinde took the decision to launch the first offensive air mission of the battle . His plan was to catch the PLAAF Su-27/30 s in the act of refueling, a time when they were most vulnerable . If the Sukhois can do a good job, hopefully those poor buggers in sea harriers can still live to fight another day.

The four Su 30 mkis moved out of the parking ramp slowly ,loaded to brim with heavy air to air missiles some of which have not been tested much and never in combat .There was no radio chit chat .It was a strict emcon mission .Only flight leader group captain Nilesh had the authority to break radio silence and that too just before weapon launch till then they will all have to just trust their eyes and training .

The flankers took off in formation of two. After the initial climb out to 2000 mters dropped down 500 ft as they crossed the Philippines shoreline .At 85% military power and 930 kms/hr they will be in expected missile launch zone -400 km from the PLAAF fleet of tankers and AWAC s in 3 hrs . 100 kms from shore they closed up further into a tight diamond and flew on

PLAAF FLIGHT RED EYE -250 KMS NORTH EAST OF OKINAWA JIMA
2X IL 78 2X A-50 4X SU 30 MKK- 0700 HRS


The four Chinese flankers settled down to a standard combat air patrol guarding the precious aerial refueling assets and command aircrafts so very vital to the strike mission . Cued in by the A-50 in charge of air battle they flew on square box flight profile 100 kms radius, divided into two distinct flight groups. Alpha group was responsible for top cover and Charlie group went down the deck covering the threat axis form Vikramaditya air group . Four more Su-30 MKKs were on standby at mainland bases and expected to come in when the actual refueling operation was in progress giving the red eye flight an iron clad aerial security . As far as the PLAAF air battle commander was concerned nothing could get in within 300 kms of his pair of command aircraft in the present configuration .
He was right –almost

BLACK COBRA FLT 4XSU-30 MKI -CLARKS AIR FORCE BASE- PHILLIPINES -073000 HRS

The fours Indian flankers flew on in total silence. The ingress path dictated by pre programmed flight path fed to the flight computer. The data transmission between the aircrafts were done at minimum power and that too on intermittent basis whenever a synchronized course and or altitude was required .Avoiding the busy shipping lanes and air corridors they approached the target flight at moderate speed and without any fancy acrobatics . The distance to missile launch was 1500 kms and time to target 96.77 minutes, commencement of climb out to missile launch altitude 94 minutes

Group captain Nilesh nodded at the instrument display, behind him WSO F/L Deepika has already finished health check of the weapon systems and found them to be satisfactory . The degree of automation in Su-30 s cockpit was a welcome change compared to earlier models of Mig 29s Nilesh flew off Jamnagar way back in 2005 as an young squadron leader before being kicked upstairs to the Maritime strike squadron of Su 30 s and relocated to Lohegaon.

At this low altitude he could clearly see the plethora of fishing boats and small cargo ships carrying on the day to day business of trade and commerce .He only hoped none of them carried friendly neighborhood Chinese man with a satellite phone.

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Postby Shankar » 21 Mar 2008 16:19

AIHE AIRBASE –NANJING MILITARY REGION
26°48'N 114°42'E- RED DRAGON FLIGHT


-Red dragon flight –tower – you are cleared for take immediate take off –climb runway heading and turn right at 2000 meters – contact Red Eye for flight vector and refueling schedule –good luck over
- Tower –Red dragon lead – cleared for take off – fly runway heading –runway 00 – contact red eye turning right at 6000 ft – rolling now

The lead Su 27 rolled into take off position and went for full military power ,as the heavily loaded aircraft started rolling slowly the pilot increased the throttle past the reheat gate ,injecting raw air turbine fuel into the exhaust flow increasing thrust available by almost 28% . The graceful bird accelerated quickly and was in air in less than 1200 meters .Climbing slowly she retracted the wheels at 300 ft and flaps to cruise configuration at 5000 ft when the air speed indicator showed an indicated air speed of 550 km/hr as the lead in pilot of Red dragon flight put her to a gentle roll to the right ,changed frequency to A-50 mainstay and got the new course and altitude to the refueling zone .

-Red Dragon –Red eye –I have control
-Roger that Red eye –you have control replied the flight lead
- Red dragon –turn right 070 – altitude 5000 meters
-Red eye- R ed dragon – turning right to new course 070 –climbing to 5000 meters –over
- Red dragon flight –Red lead – make course -070-altitude- 5000 meters

One by one rest of the PLAAF flankers eased into three flights of 4 aircraft each ,into a multiple widely spaced diamond formation which from ground looked like three diamonds flying off in an inverted V form .Their first refueling was scheduled in less than 90 minutes off the shores of Okinawa Jima .


T
raining. Although the new doctrinal rigor infused into China's pilot training program has improved the general abilities of the PLAAF and PLANAF, Chinese pilots still average only between 80 and 150 hours of flying time each year, in contrast with the more than 200 hours that their Malaysian and Singaporean counterparts receive.(26) In fact, even after lengthy training in Russia, the pilots assigned to fly the initial batch of twenty-six Su-27s remained "so unskilled that Russian pilots had to deliver the planes to Chinese bases."(27) Even now, Chinese commanders, fearful of damaging their new aircraft, have husbanded their use, restricting Chinese pilots to little more than navigation flights and basic maneuvers. Meanwhile, Singaporean pilots have cut their teeth by training at Luke Air Force Base with the U.S. 58th Tactical Fighter Wing.
Moreover, the instruction Chinese pilots receive remains circumscribed. Because the training of each service, whether air force or naval air force, tends to be built rigidly around service-specific missions, Chinese pilots from the two services are often incompatible. PLAAF pilots, for instance, are never trained to operate over open ocean or provide tactical air support for naval units - a particularly problematic situation for Chinese commanders since all twenty-six Su-27s currently in Chinese service have been assigned to the PLAAF.(28) Its officers' handbook specifically states that
lying over water and over land is completely different.
When flying over the ocean, there are no ground markers as reference points; it is difficult to estimate altitude and distance; weather changes quickly, visibility is low, and the horizon is difficult to discern; there is no navigation equipment on the ocean, and it is difficult to deal with special situations when they appear. Pilots encounter control problems over the water every day, which greatly complicates training. Therefore, the farther one flies from the coastline, the more problems there are and the more difficult it becomes.(29)
Nor are PLANAF pilots routinely trained in air-superiority roles. Even within the services there are substantial training barriers. Whatever capability is resident in the J-8 fighter for tactical air support, for instance, may never be exhibited if its Chinese pilot has been trained only in air-superiority maneuvers. Consequently, Chinese air forces, if called into action, might fail to accomplish the most elemental coordination between air and naval forces. Significant technical and doctrinal differences also exist between the PLAAF and PLANAF in terms of command, control, and communications architecture.(30)
While Chinese air forces performed adequately in the 1995 and 1996 naval and air demonstrations and exercises off the northern and southwestern coasts of Taiwan, the PLAAF and PLANAF have not resolved many of their worst training deficiencies.
Advanced aircraft. The successful December 1995 conclusion of China's acquisition of the final forty-six Su-27s of a total order of seventy-two aircraft from Russia has many observers proclaiming another leap in Chinese air capability. The Chinese air force currently operates the initial twenty-six Su-27s (twenty-two Su-27s and four Su-27UBs) from this order. These aircraft were assigned to the PLAAF's 3rd Air Division based at Wuhu, 270 km west of Shanghai and far removed from the South China Sea. The second batch of twenty-four Su-27s is reported to be earmarked for deployment with the PLANAF on Hainan Island.(31)



This lack of exposure of PLAAF flanker pilots to flying over ocean will be one of the key factors in deciding the outcome of the coming naval air battle along with their excessive dependence on aerial command and tight control of aircraft even when the situation clearly dictates a more relaxed command structure . But then history can never be fore seen .

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Postby JimmyJ » 21 Mar 2008 16:40

Hi Shankar,

Great story!! The first thread I visit daily is the military scenario to see if you have any new posts. The fate of the India's brave hearts is right now in your hand and not in the hand of God.....


One suggestion, in every post there is more than enough words which has a concrete prediction of what is to come ahead (may be my prediction is wrong)...It would be really good if you could keep us guessing in more than one directions...

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Postby Sudhanshu » 21 Mar 2008 17:12

JimmyJ wrote:Hi Shankar,

Great story!! The first thread I visit daily is the military scenario to see if you have any new posts. The fate of the India's brave hearts is right now in your hand and not in the hand of God.....


One suggestion, in every post there is more than enough words which has a concrete prediction of what is to come ahead (may be my prediction is wrong)...It would be really good if you could keep us guessing in more than one directions...


:) Don't say you mean that shankar should write in next post there was malfunction in system. So they returned home, to fight another day, just to surprise us (Just kidding).

Well, I agree too, Shankar, in my opinion, key to increase interest is keep surprises for reader. Still India to take any loss (which is certain in just any war), I think we are still thinking what would be that loss.

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Postby Shankar » 21 Mar 2008 17:52

INS VIKRAMADITYA - SOME WHERE IN SOUTHERN PACIFIC-0800 HRS



Rear Admiral Hyder ali believed in God ,believed in his country and in his Knowledge not necessarily in that order. Today on the eve of the most momentous battle of life and carrier he was calm and composed .He looked at the rising sun and knew it hid the incoming PLAAF/PLAN strike group with devastating fire power . All that stood between them and total destruction of Virat air group was his carrier and the aircraft it carried. Six decades back into history US navy aircraft rewrote the doctrine of naval warfare in high seas and replaced the mighty battle ships that rules the waves till then. China at the moment had the overwhelming numerical advantage and was on the point of proving a point that carriers are nothing but expensive white elephants .

Rear Admiral Hyder Ali respectfully begged to differ.

[quote]Transforming to Victory: The U.S. Navy, Carrier Aviation, and Preparing for War in the Pacific

Andrew Krepinevich Published 2000
Published By The Olin Institute
In the closing days of World War I, navies measured strength by the striking power of their battleships. After the war, the United States planned to remain a great sea power by increasing the number of these powerful ships in its battle fleet. Nearly a quarter of a century later, the American Navy entered the Second World War as a “battleshipâ€

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Postby Hari Sud » 21 Mar 2008 22:56

What did we achieve with this huge backgrounder above?

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Postby jamwal » 21 Mar 2008 23:40

If you like it, read it. Otherwise ignore the background and just read the scenario.
Some people (like me) like to read background too.

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Postby Sudhanshu » 22 Mar 2008 04:48

jamwal wrote:If you like it, read it. Otherwise ignore the background and just read the scenario.
Some people (like me) like to read background too.


I agree!

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Postby k prasad » 22 Mar 2008 09:00

Hari Sud wrote:What did we achieve with this huge backgrounder above?


I think it was Shankar's way of showing us anti-backgrounders the bird for the comments above. :twisted: :lol:

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Postby Nesoj » 22 Mar 2008 14:18

Just to remind a few members....
This is a military discussion forum, and the purpose of this scenario is not 'entertainment' but 'edutainment'. The 'how is it done' is not as important, as the 'why was it done'

For those looking for 'instant gratification' and not having the patience to read the background.... my only suggestion is to avoid this scenario altogether, buy some comics (saving the hassle of any reading at all).... can just see the pictures :lol:

For those, wanting to 'learn' ..... Shanker, please continue just as you are doing ... please :)

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Postby Shankar » 22 Mar 2008 14:43

BLACK COBRA FLT 4XSU-30 MKI -CLARKS AIR FORCE BASE- PHILLIPINES -0900 HRS

Group captain Nilesh scanned the consoles waiting for the flashing blinker to come on the main display console to indicate the climb out to missile launch altitude as he neared the waypoint 4 in the flight profile. The flight was rough as the warming air from the ocean kept on pushing even the heavily loaded aircraft up and the flight computer kept on adjusting to the preprogrammed altitude . The left display showed the engine parameters all within limits but port engine exhaust was some what higher around 725 deg C compared to ideal 680 C most likely due to obstruction of air flow around the moving exhaust duct in close proximity to the two extra large KS 172 novatar missiles he was carrying for todays mission .The fuel consumption rate was also high by about 12% for the additional induced drag .Otherwise everything was fine and he hoped once the missiles are launched the familiar super agile stable flying characteristics of his flanker will return

Out of the corner of his eye he noticed the blue flasher start to blink as his formation reached the pre programmed way point .Nilesh looked back at his WSO who was already bent over the console ,all concentration and oxygen mask on as the young officer commenced the autonomous launch procedure .Nilesh smiled to himself and with a click on the inter phone initiated the vertical climb . The roar of the twin Al 31 was disturbing even inside the highly sound proofed cockpit. The indicated air speed started flashing and was quickly past 1000 kms/hr as he pulled the stick all the way forward for a mind numbing climb out at max power. It was a punishing routine and the edges of his eyes were starting to grow rings of black when he reached the launch altitude of 7000 meters slightly over the expected cruise altitude of the mainstays as he put the radar on search mode . A few seconds delay and the in on the screen he could see the four target aircraft .The A-50 could be clearly made out as they flew on in tight circles compared to the flight profile of extended eights of the IL-78 s . The escorting PLAAF Su 27/30 were he knew far closer since the blip size appeared almost same flying in elongated box formation at 9000 meters

Behind him other three aircrafts of Black Cobra flight also leveled out each already lining up for their pre designated target as the wing lights of the flight lead started blinking. It was the signal to get the data link going on full power for a last minute target selection and launch sequence co-ordination so that none of the Chinese aircrafts are killed more than once .After all each KS-172 costs almost 2 million dollars plus.

PLAAF FLIGHT RED EYE -250 KMS NORTH EAST OF OKINAWA JIMA
2X IL 78 2X A-50 4X SU 30 MKK- 0905 HRS


The Indian flankers were detected immediately they came out of the ocean floor and started their rapid climb out and PLAAF air battle commander did not hesitate

Red eye lead –red eye 4 and 5 –bandits inbound –course 190 –speed 1000 kms/hour and increasing- intercept immediately –you are weapons free –over

Red eye 4 – read you clear red eye lead – on intercept course –understand weapons free -over

But the Indian sukhois were still way beyond the R-77 they carried and they needed to close in the gap of 250 odd kms before any effective intercept can be made .As the PLAAF flankers lit their after burner and dived towards the aggressors –a sequential preprogrammed well practiced long range air to air missile launch program was already under way.

BLACK COBRA FLT 4XSU-30 MKI -CLARKS AIR FORCE BASE- PHILLIPINES -0910 HRS

- Black cobra flight –cobra lead – synchronize weapon release now and launch –you are weapons free

[quote]KS-172 designed to fit air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles.
Collaboration supposes initiation of ordered or joint R-effort on the basis of upgraded prototype of the seeker 9B-1103M with follow-on as R&D efforts.
Provides:
- Search, lock-on and tracking of the moving targets using the preliminary target designation from the airborne or ground-based radars;
- Measurement of angle coordinates and angular rates of targets and missile-to-target closing speeds;
- Generation and transfer of the signals for missile control systems via digital communication links;
- Receiving and decoding of update signals.

Operation modes:
- Fully autonomous active mode using only initial prelaunch target designation without any external radar support enabling “fire-and-forgetâ€

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Postby Shankar » 23 Mar 2008 15:18

BLACK COBRA FLIGHT -4XSU-30 MKI -350 KMS NORTH EAST OF OKINAWA JIMA

Group captain allowed himself a small smile at the receding fire balls in the distant horizon .But his relaxed composure was very short lasting indeed as the radar warning receiver screamed its shrill warning .The PLAAF Su 27s have managed to sneak in to missile launch range while his flight focused on getting the tankers and AWACS. The four escort Su-27 were rapidly closing into missile firing range at more than 1800 kms/hr and he needed to first escape the kill envelope and then plan a counter strike all in a matter of seconds

-cobra flight –cobra lead – execute zeta on my count -5 4 3 2 1 –now

The four Su 30 mkis disintegrated into a predetermined pattern resembling an exploding bomb, all in different angle and speed and then turned into the attacking PLAAF fighters .
It was a good move and smartly executed but a bit too late .The PLAAF flankers had only one thing in their mind and that was destruction of the IAF sukhois at any cost. They did not think of their own safety or their aircraft or the cost of weapons as they launched the first salvo of R-77 s at extreme range kept on closing and fired the second salvo and then closed in to within visual range . For a minute or so there were 8 R-77 streaking at 4 Su 20 mkis in a classic head on engagement profile. The Indian flankers evaded the first salvo with not mush difficulty,in a cloud of chaff and activating the ECM pods .As the Indian sukhois turned in to a missile launch position the second salvo of 4 R-77 s came in –blowing two of the Indian flankers out of sky .The game suddenly changed in favor of the PLAAF with a 2: 1 numerical advantage

Suddenly the sky was full of sukhois jockeying for a good firing vantage. Nilesh had four R-73 still available as he watched the PLAAF flanker pair close up in a near vertical dive and his radar warning receiver started bleeping again as he put his aircraft in a gut wrenching 9G turn to starboard ,getting out of way of the diving pair of flankers with his thumb flicking open the fire control trigger cover and selecting the R-73 s ,the attack computer have already loaded the target data as the PLAAF flankers flashed past not more than 100 ft away towards the ocean trying to level out of their dive and turn back onto him. It was too good a chance to miss and Nilesh squeezed the knobbed fire button twice ,the attack computer assigning one R-73 at each of the target .The sleek heat seekers leaped of the twin launch rails on the wing tip and angled sharply downwards towards the two PLAFF flankers already nose up and getting ready to launch their own R-73 s . The R-73s did not make any mistake at this range and locked on to the PLAAF aircraft despite the stream of flares coming out of them .A few seconds more and two bright fire balls appeared over the wave tops .

Nilesh pulled the stick sharply inwards and was mad to see remaining Indian flanker entangled in a deadly low level fight with two Su 27 s without much altitude or speed to carry on the fight for long . As he pushed the throttle switch all the way forward the sukhoi responded with an eager surge of power .He selected GUN and dived in . The first PLAAF flanker disintegrated at the first burst of his Gsh 30 6 cannon and the second PLAAF flanker leapt out and away of the fire zone . Nilesh calmly selected the R-73 once again and launch both the missiles at the hot exhaust pipe pf the escaping flanker. The flight time was less than 5 seconds as both the archers slammed in disintegrating the PLAAF flanker even before it started to rain down on the ocean floor in a fiery shower .

It was time to go home

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Postby Sudhanshu » 23 Mar 2008 20:14

That was sad, loss of two SU-30.. I think odds are very less when fighting with Su-27 :) it seems Shankar has to do just to shut the mouth of Rajnikant fans.

Anyways, great work Shankar, please keep it coming, now we are getting nervous, what next gonna happen.

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Low odds for SuMKI vs SuMKK/Su27

Postby kaangeya » 24 Mar 2008 00:21

Wonder how any other package of aircraft would fare in a mission like this one. Could an F22 interceptor package have accomplished this mission and gotten out in one piece? Assuming that the US would ever allow itself to be painted into a situation like this? Coming to think of it, this isn't a standard operating mission out of the NATO vs. WP situations. A US CBG would never have to fear a conventional attack by air with its now retired Phoenix armed F14s outranging and outgunning any sort of strike package. Which is probably why hte Russians's strategies are so asymmetrical, to take out a CG with a sub launched package rather than spending billions and billions more to build a flotilla of CBGs duelling it out in a game of attrition.

An AWACS unaided interception out at sea needs fabulously skilled personnel. A scenario Shankar is going to paint for us. US CBGs having operated in every maritime zone in the world with Prowlers and EA6 must be impossible to beat from the air. A 2 CBG force can put over a 100 aircraft out to launch any sort of attack or defence mission.

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Postby Hari Sud » 24 Mar 2008 00:33

This battle is going too much in favor of India so far.

The war god is smiling on India in Shankar's scenario.

Let us hope, it happens this way in reality.

Any military personnel reading these scenarios; what do they think of it?


Hari Sud

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Postby PaulJI » 24 Mar 2008 01:29

I'm getting rather confused by the geographical descriptions here. We have Chinese Su-27s overflying Japanese airspace, & PLAAF A-50s & Il-78s taking up station over Japanese territory.

250 km NE of Okinawa plants you squarely over the southern islands of Kagoshima prefecture, Amami O-shima & the surrounding islands.

350 km NE of Okinawa is open sea, outside Japanese territorial waters (though well inside Japanese-controlled airspace), but to get there from China means either overflying the chain of Japanese islands between Kyushu & Okinawa, & violating Japanese territory, or flying a dog-leg route south of Okinawa, then ENE, then N.
Last edited by PaulJI on 24 Mar 2008 02:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rahul M » 24 Mar 2008 02:02

Paul, this thread allows imagination to run WILD a bit !!

just, let it be !! or U will rub the shankar fans the wrong way !!

just use some NaCl.

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Postby PaulJI » 24 Mar 2008 02:12

Rahul M wrote:Paul, this thread allows imagination to run WILD a bit !!

just, let it be !! or U will rub the shankar fans the wrong way !!

just use some NaCl.


I have no problem with it running wild in terms of the success of outnumbered Indians, but assuming the JASDF & USAF will meekly permit the PLAAF to operate unhindered over Japanese territory is a bit much.

I'm also rather sceptical of the chances of making a surprise attack on the Andaman & Nicobar islands with ships sailing via the Straits of Malacca, i.e. through the territorial waters of Indonesia, or Singapore and Malaysia, within sight of land (less than 10 km from it for hours on end) & hundreds of merchant ships for many hours.

And I can't make sense of the movements of Viraat, Vikramaditya & the PLAN ships. They seem to be moving in the wrong directions, and either there are quite a few days unaccounted for, or they're moving at unbelievable speeds.

I think Shankar needs a better map of the Pacific. :D
Last edited by PaulJI on 24 Mar 2008 02:57, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Rahul M » 24 Mar 2008 02:27

in this thread nobody will say too much unless shankar uses fusion rockets for taking out ugly martians !! :D

more tom clansyish than tom clancy, if U know what I mean !!

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Postby PaulJI » 24 Mar 2008 03:51

I see - or at least, I see some of it. Shankar's confusing east & west in the Pacific. e.g. at one point he has the PLAN ships heading to intercept Viraat 1200 km SE of Viraat, & Vikramaditya 2000 km SE of them. That would mean the Chinese & Vikramaditya were coming from the direction of South America, but it's clear from the context they're meant to be on a closing course with Viraat.

But some of the distances are still wrong, & internally inconsistent. e.g. there's a reference to the Chinese Il-78s being on station 1200 km NE of Clark AB. That's 500 km south of Okinawa, not 250 km NE of it, & it's not consistent with the Su-30MKIs taking 3 hours at 930 km/h to get within missile range of them.

Also, he has Vikramaditya heading out into the Pacific from Subic Bay via the East China Sea. I think that's a problem with the sea names: the East China Sea is the waters between China & the Nansei-shoto (i.e. Okinawa & the other southern Japanese islands), which I don't think is what Shankar meant. Should have headed round Luzon either to the north (perhaps shorter, but rather close to China) or south, either way into the Philippine Sea, & then NE or ENE.

BTW, the former Clark Air Base closed in 1991, & is now a civil airport - Diosdado Macapagal International Airport. It's currently being expanded, & is planned to become the main international airport for the Philippines. It's probably not available for strike packages of Su-30MKIs to use. Subic Bay naval base has also become a civil facility.

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Postby Rahul M » 24 Mar 2008 05:26

BTW, the former Clark Air Base closed in 1991, & is now a civil airport - Diosdado Macapagal International Airport. It's currently being expanded, & is planned to become the main international airport for the Philippines. It's probably not available for strike packages of Su-30MKIs to use. Subic Bay naval base has also become a civil facility.


something tells me that shankar wouldn't object to using cam ranh instead ! :wink:

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Postby Shankar » 24 Mar 2008 13:39

INS VIKRAMADITYA –SOME WHERE IN SOUTHERN PACIFIC –BLUE RAY FLIGHT 12 XMIG 29K –0930 HRS

Rear Admiral Hyder Ali checked his watch and also the encrypted transmission from the Sukhois that have just taken out the refueling and command support of the incoming PLAAF flanker flight some where off the coast of Okinawa Jima. The PLAAF flankers were expected to be strike zone in less than 3 hrs if they maintain the present speed and course and obviously the sea harriers were no match for the 12 odd flankers on their way to a decisive result.

Down below the deck and hangers were a bee hive of frantic activity. With 12 Mig 29k s already armed and fueled and the second batch of 8 more reserve aircraft getting fueled up.

Hyder Ali however could never understand the excessive attention the navy pilots gave to the gun always even when they carried a deadly load of air to air and air to surface weapons .As he could watch now two young pilots both lt commanders checking the gun mount and the belt feed mechanism even after the crew chief have finished the loading of the belt. The TKB 687 internal gun installation is housed in the port lead edge root extension and consists of Gryazev Shipoonov Gsh 301 single barrel 30 mm 1.18 calibre automatic gun and associated ammunition box for 150 AO 18 rounds. but for today’s engagements they were carrying only 100 rounds. The standard rate of fire is 1500-1800 rounds per minute with an average muzzle velocity of 860 meters per second and a recoil force of 6000-7500 kgs.A trigger on stick electronically controls firing .The gun can fire continuously expending the entire ammo in less than six seconds or in very short bursts. Alternative firing modes available are automatic fire (75%) of ammo supply or automatic fire with cut off – firing 25 rounds in each burst of one seconds each or the training mode when each trigger squeeze would release 7 rounds .The Gsh 301 is water cooled with additional air cooling thru the vents in the gun bay for additional service life .The gun can tolerate or has a life of 2000 rounds,weighs 45 kgs and just under 2 meters long.

Apart from the gun all the aircraft in today’s interception package were also carrying 4 r-77 and 4 Vympel R-73 each .But still they were some what out gunned by the much larger weapon carrying capability of the PLAN/PLAAF flankers . The six reserve fulcrums getting ready now, most likely will be required even if some assistance will be available from the sea harriers off Virat.

Rear Admiral Hyder Ali turned to the air group commander, who was busy issuing last minute instructions to the pilots, and quietly told him to increase the intercept package size by 6 more fulcrums , even if it means a slight delay in launch. With the additional aircraft in air at least weapon parity will be achieved.

Inside the armored hanger of Vikramaditya ,the tedious process of loading of the heavy R-77 s and fixing the forward fins manually began . The launch was about to be delayed by 15 minutes

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Postby Igorr » 25 Mar 2008 14:00

If I was Chinese admiral, I should try to close the way for supply for Indian CBG with some moving near Singapoor via Chinese bases in Burma and Indonesia. Anyway, very interesting development waits for us :wink:

Now some additional information about MiG-29K history, and their localisation in Vikramadiya's hungar:

ImageImage
Image

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Postby Nitesh » 25 Mar 2008 15:35

Shankar wrote:INS VIKRAMADITYA –SOME WHERE IN SOUTHERN PACIFIC –BLUE RAY FLIGHT 12 XMIG 29K –0930 HRS

Rear Admiral Hyder Ali checked his watch and also the encrypted transmission from the Sukhois that have just taken out the refueling and command support of the incoming PLAAF flanker flight some where off the coast of Okinawa Jima. The PLAAF flankers were expected to be strike zone in less than 3 hrs if they maintain the present speed and course and obviously the sea harriers were no match for the 12 odd flankers on their way to a decisive result.

Down below the deck and hangers were a bee hive of frantic activity. With 12 Mig 29k s already armed and fueled and the second batch of 8 more reserve aircraft getting fueled up.

Hyder Ali however could never understand the excessive attention the navy pilots gave to the gun always even when they carried a deadly load of air to air and air to surface weapons .As he could watch now two young pilots both lt commanders checking the gun mount and the belt feed mechanism even after the crew chief have finished the loading of the belt. The TKB 687 internal gun installation is housed in the port lead edge root extension and consists of Gryazev Shipoonov Gsh 301 single barrel 30 mm 1.18 calibre automatic gun and associated ammunition box for 150 AO 18 rounds. but for today’s engagements they were carrying only 100 rounds. The standard rate of fire is 1500-1800 rounds per minute with an average muzzle velocity of 860 meters per second and a recoil force of 6000-7500 kgs.A trigger on stick electronically controls firing .The gun can fire continuously expending the entire ammo in less than six seconds or in very short bursts. Alternative firing modes available are automatic fire (75%) of ammo supply or automatic fire with cut off – firing 25 rounds in each burst of one seconds each or the training mode when each trigger squeeze would release 7 rounds .The Gsh 301 is water cooled with additional air cooling thru the vents in the gun bay for additional service life .The gun can tolerate or has a life of 2000 rounds,weighs 45 kgs and just under 2 meters long.

Apart from the gun all the aircraft in today’s interception package were also carrying 4 r-77 and 4 Vympel R-73 each .But still they were some what out gunned by the much larger weapon carrying capability of the PLAN/PLAAF flankers . The six reserve fulcrums getting ready now, most likely will be required even if some assistance will be available from the sea harriers off Virat.

Rear Admiral Hyder Ali turned to the air group commander, who was busy issuing last minute instructions to the pilots, and quietly told him to increase the intercept package size by 6 more fulcrums , even if it means a slight delay in launch. With the additional aircraft in air at least weapon parity will be achieved.

Inside the armored hanger of Vikramaditya ,the tedious process of loading of the heavy R-77 s and fixing the forward fins manually began . The launch was about to be delayed by 15 minutes


seems like we going to see some tough battle, the free run enjoyed by India is diminishing. :(


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