Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1571
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby andy B » 01 Aug 2008 06:16

Jamwal...bhayo....aapki to nikal padi..bhaiya... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2055
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby kit » 01 Aug 2008 08:28

why not include the chinese '5'th generation stealth fighter in the scenario maybe as a surprise element. (for indians that is).And why not some threat perception to the Indian satellite network by the chinese asats? A lot of unknown factors about the chinese capabilities in assymetric warfare exists esp crippling attacks on indian computer networks.It would be very interesting if the scenarios can include an element of assymetric warfare also., since the nuke option is not an option for both parties for obvious reasons.The assymetry should include the left indian political parties as well.Wont take much imagination as to how this will be played out :)

asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 194
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby asbchakri » 01 Aug 2008 10:10

ShankarDa, just 1 scenario per week, man u can do better. We know u have it in u to give out more. We have full confidance in you. Dont be shy let it all out. The Chinki trolls are all also waiting tensed :twisted: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1571
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby andy B » 01 Aug 2008 10:47

Shankar bhava jara laukar kar....whats fascinating is that shankar u have got a global audience now BRfites spread around the world are looking forward to read the next chicom bashing....... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Also considering that the next scenario will involve badgers, could there be decoy bombers/missiles involved as well???

I remember reading a similar scenario although in the naval realm in the Tom Clancy book "Red Storm Rising" where the badgers fire decoy missiles and all the tomcats expend their phoenixes on the dummies while Backfires fire the second live missile salvos and attach the carrier group.

vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2165
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby vivek_ahuja » 01 Aug 2008 10:58

Rahul M wrote:vivek, you might want to take into account that PLAAF may use their bases in southern chengdu and even guangzhou to make direct passes over the NE overflying burma. a lot of their assets can be based in southern chengdu air fields within a couple of days since these are pretty active and developed airbases unlike the ones in tibet. would give much better figures for 'distance to target' and also 'altitude above SL' than the ones in northern china and the ones in tibet respectively.


Rahul,

I did take it into account. Both in my scenario writing days as well as on the Tibet war thread, remember?

That is the expected Chinese strategy involved with aerial counter-strikes ('Stage two' in my post yesterday) and blends well with the idea from a Chinese POV that the Indian airbases can be rolled east to west one airbase at a time. And Myanmar airspace sovereignty be damned if it needs to be.

One look at where Chabua etc stand geographically and you can see the virtual encirclement of the airbase that exists. We can be all pals with the Burmese how much ever we want, but if I were anything but an armchair general, and standing at Chabua, I would be giving the hills near the Chaukan pass and the Kohima hills a very serious look...

CAS would have to take care of the massive legacy AA assets the PLA holds, its quantity alone is virtually a force multiplier. the operators too are pretty regularly trained, much more so than most other AFs. considering that most of these are taken from the PLA reserves, it only frees up the regular PLA to get on with the offensive business w/o having to think too much about air defence.


This is true. Flying over the frontline on CAS sorties is going to be a nightmare for the crews involved. But I see no way around it. Which is exactly why I always remind people expecting a rosy picture outcome of any Indo-China war to look again. It is going to be bloody.

C3I, comm and AD nodes would be protected by a very high density of legacy AD assets. sead and counter value air ops won't be easy for IAF even if PLAAF fails to provide adequate air cover.


Exactly. Cooperation between Army Cruise Missile units and IAF forces is going to be a critical issue until the day when the IAF can get its own dedicated ALCMs and the setup of the Aerospace Command. In the meantime, what is required is integrated Ops, not merely Joint ones.

p.s. please check gmail account.


Done. And replied too.

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 01 Aug 2008 12:03

PLAAF STRIKE FLEET 46 X H-6 PLUS 6 SU-30MKM 1625 HRS –APPROACHING INDIAN AIRSPACE

Captain San felt oddly vulnerable. Though there was no apparent reason for him to get tensed up as yet. The sky was clean so far and no indication of interception is imminent. He felt vulnerable because he knew of the capability of Indian Sukhois and the Mig 29s and even the Mig 21 upgraded versions with a massive inventory of beyond visual range missiles and very high level of pilot skill as demonstrated during the air excises with USAF in Gwalior . USAF flew their state of the art F-15C and still could not stop “attack IAF Mig s.

Captain San knew many of his fleet will never make it back but he hoped the mission objective will be achieved .The two targets provided almost 50% of all finished petroleum products to the north east including the army units stationed in Arunachal. Cutting of their fuel supply even for a few weeks will level out the battle field for PLA and its air wing.

But to do that you needed a good political understanding of the military situation on ground. This was sadly missing in the PLA. Everything was rationed from number of escorts to refueling tankers to long range of local cruise missiles .Not even 10 of his bombers were loaded with air to surface missiles ,rest were carrying dumb bombs and the large number was expected to make interception difficult .
Secondly the avionic on board the H-6 bombers were out and out outdated .Overheating was serious problem and the weapon separation protocol never perfected making each launch a risky business .That is why most H-6 bombers preferred to carry bombs than strike missiles and had to be almost forced to carry the heavy missiles .

The government tried hard to buy a regiment of Tu-22 from Russia who strangely refused even to consider the option citing their long term relationship with India.
The take off and cruise so far have consumed more than 40 % of the available fuel .Still they had enough fuel to make to the target and back but not much can made for evasive moves in case the Indians throw up a spirited defense with theirs hundreds of fishbeds based all over the state of Assam .

The PLAAF is credited with about 100 H-6 (Tu-16) medium bombers, a type that first entered PLAAF service in 1959. With a 1,800km (1,040mi) combat radius, the H-6 remains woefully obsolete in most combat roles. Beginning with the PLA Navy H-6D version this bomber was modified to carry stand-off attack missiles. However, early missiles like the C-601/C-611 derivatives of the Silkworm cruise missile had a short range and thus exposed the H-6 to most U.S. and Taiwanese defensive fighters. But in 2000 one report suggested that up to 25 H-6s would be modified to carry four new TV-guided YJ-63 land-attack cruise missiles, also a derivative of the C-601/C-611 series. [53] It is also conceivable that the H-6 could carry the new jet-powered version of the FL-2 revealed at the 2001 Beijing Airshow. This suggests that the H-6 may be given new offensive roles that give this old aircraft a new lease on life. Armed with an LACM-armed H-6, the PLAAF could join an initial assault on Taiwan that would otherwise be led by the short-range ballistic missiles of the Second Artillery and the Army.
There is relatively little open information on PLA attempts to develop a successor to the H-6. Internet sources have offered pictures of what is referred to as the H-8, which is a H-6 with four wing-mounted turbofan engines. Such an idea likely suffered a quick death. There is also occasional reference to a H-9 project, said to be a new stealthy bomber being developed in cooperation with Russia.
It would appear that the PLA would prefer Russian assistance in developing a new modern long-range bomber. But one might surmise that the PLAAF would prefer to have a near-term replacement for the H-6, such as an available Russian alternative. One recently noted possible PLA bomber purchase from Russia was for the Sukhoi Su-32, also called the Su-34. [54] While there have been no corroborating reports since this one, acquisition of the Su-32 would provide the PLAAF with multi-role strike platform that is more capable than the Su-30MKK. It main difference is in a redesigned front fuselage that provides much more space for electronic systems, fuel and for the crew—a rare commodity in Russian combat aircraft. For a strike fighter of its class, is has galley and toilet facilities, which would enable it to perform 10-hour missions. Unlike the Su-30MKK, the Su-32 can carry two Raduga MOSKIT (SS-N-22 SUNBURN) supersonic anti-ship missiles or three Npo Machinostroyenia YAKHONT supersonic anti-ship missiles. And in addition to the usual range of Russian AAMs and PGMs the Su-32 can also be outfitted for anti-submarine warfare. [55]
There was much reporting in the early 1990s that the PLA would purchase the Tupolev Tu-22M3 BACKFIRE bomber, but the PLA has yet to buy this bomber. At the time Russian reluctance nixed the sale. But before the 2000 summit of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Jiang Zemin, a Russian arms export official noted that Russia might permit the sale of strategic systems like the BACKFIRE to China after the signing of a new Friendship Treaty. [56] Following Russia’s leasing of 4 BACKFIRES to India, a sale or lease to China becomes an increasing possibility.


Rupesh
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 19:14
Location: Somewhere in South Central India

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Rupesh » 01 Aug 2008 12:13

Shankar wrote:
Captain San felt oddly vulnerable.


He has to.. death is only minutes away.. :D

Nitesh
BRFite
Posts: 893
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 22:22
Location: Bangalore
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Nitesh » 01 Aug 2008 12:33

Shankar wrote:PLAAF STRIKE FLEET 46 X H-6 PLUS 6 SU-30MKM 1625 HRS –APPROACHING INDIAN AIRSPACE

Captain San felt oddly vulnerable.


Enemy on the gates......... Time to hit them hard shankarda :evil: :evil: :evil:

Time not to feel vulnerable but kick there butt hard :twisted: :twisted:

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 01 Aug 2008 12:54

COBRA STRIKE FLIGHT -INDIAN AIR FORCE STATION –APPROACHING LINE OF ACTUAL CONTROL -1625 HRS

Squadron leader Jamwal checked his fuel indicator, still over 7 tons enough for some after burning time and close up the gap with the projected position of the bandit formation. He wanted to close up and then go active to spook the PLAAF escorts into breaking formation and disperse from the bombers .That will allow the bisons to close in for the kill with some help from his group of course

Most fighter pilots won't linger in burner, because the fuel flow is in the tens of thousands of pounds per hour. Too much AB time could mean not having enough gas to get home or to an airborne tanker, and that's as good as a kill for the opponent. Although the single-seat Su-30MKI had an impressive 9000kg -plus internal fuel capacity, there's no doubt those AL-31 s guzzle the gas in AB.


In an purely air dominance role like today ,Jamwal knew for sure he had the capability to locate ,chase, turn and make kill of almost all combat aircraft in the world in a very short period of time . The 10 odd missiles he was carrying today –six R-77ER and 4 R-73 E that multiplied by the number of aircraft in his flight was enough to obliterate the entire PLAAF strike fleet .He had to make sure of the escorts first .The half a dozen Su30 MKM were a serious problem .

Flying qualities-those characteristics that make it easy or difficult to perform mission tasks-is a far meatier subject, in Jamwals mind. Flying qualities are the synergistic combination of stability, control, handling and human factors. The better an airplane's flying qualities, the less attention the pilot has to devote to flying, thereby freeing additional mental and physical effort for the task of weapons deployment. But we rarely read about flying qualities, perhaps because we can't readily observe them from the ground. We read about performance because it's black and white-easily measured and verified and readily compared with those of other airplanes. Flying-quality limitations, however, can hinder or facilitate exploiting an airplane's performance.

Su 30 s flying qualities was piqued more than it has ever been by Pougachev's Cobra maneuver. Credited to Viktor Pougachev, chief test pilot of the Sukhoi Design Bureau during Su-27 development, the maneuver takes the airplane from straight and level flight to more than 90 degrees nose up, then nose down back to a level flight pitch attitude-in just a couple of seconds-while essentially traveling forward the entire time tactical value of this maneuvere Jamwal intended to test today in real combat
The Su-30s MKIs 's flight-control system is sophisticated. A four-channel analog fly-bywire control system provides maneuverability while it limits G and angle of attack. Movable control surfaces include independent stabilators, leading-edge slats, flaperons, rudders and a single speed brake on the top of the fuselage. The stabs and flaps deflect symmetrically or individually, depending on the pilot's demands and the plane's flight condition. What moves when is transparent to the pilot, who still pulls on the stick to pitch nose up, applies left stick to roll left, etc. Whether left stick input deflects flaperons or stabs differentially or controls some other combination is up to the computers

Squadron leader Jamwal decided to break radio silence and also go active on radar .It was important to take out the escorts quickly and then allow the MIG21/27s taking off right now enough time to intercept preferably over the hills of Arunachal than over the densely populated Dihing valley and close to the possible targets . Any H-6slipping though will then have to taken care of by Akash batteries in the region, already on high alert.

- cobra strike –lead –activate data link and conform
- data link activated lead ,came in the confirmations quickly
- cobra strike – going active on radar now – standby for missile launch
- copy that lead –all units ready to receive target data and missiles armed

Jamwal leaned forward inhis 36K ejection seat ,and flicked on the mini switch which powered up the air search radar ,in the same movement he also threw the missile arming switch ,powering up all the air to air missiles for launch on command .

Rupesh
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 19:14
Location: Somewhere in South Central India

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Rupesh » 01 Aug 2008 13:22

Shankar wrote:
Jamwal leaned forward inhis 36K ejection seat ,and flicked on the mini switch which powered up the air search radar ,in the same movement he also threw the missile arming switch ,powering up all the air to air missiles for launch on command .


Captain San and team..say your prayers, hope your insuarance companies have liquid cash. :)

niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5386
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby niran » 01 Aug 2008 14:29

It should be
Say youl playel kapitan San, Hope youl family have bought a piece of burial ground

Shuvodeep
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 14 Jul 2008 14:19

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shuvodeep » 01 Aug 2008 19:41

vivek_ahuja wrote:This is true. Flying over the frontline on CAS sorties is going to be a nightmare for the crews involved. But I see no way around it. Which is exactly why I always remind people expecting a rosy picture outcome of any Indo-China war to look again. It is going to be bloody.

C3I, comm and AD nodes would be protected by a very high density of legacy AD assets. sead and counter value air ops won't be easy for IAF even if PLAAF fails to provide adequate air cover.


Vivek,

I absolutely second your thoughts . Even if PLAAF fails to provide adequete air cover to its ground assets , china still has an extremely capable , diverse and abundant Multi-level AD network for protection of its ground forces and assets from IAF strike teams.

If we analyze and consider the density and structure of the Chinese Air Defence troops it is evident that a highly comprehensive multilevel network exists which caters to threat perceptions at all levels.

The most capable of these systems would be the S400PMU and the even more powerful S-500 system presently under development in Russia (or perhaps even deployed); and space-deployed anti-missile weapons (anybody's guess)..

Apart from these very potent threats , the other major threats that any strike party of the IAF would face while on any deepStrike/SEAD mission would be

1. HQ-16 or "super-Tor-M1." an all-new ADM system, jointly developed with Russia. It is a mid-range system, effective against low- to medium-altitude (100 m to 20 km) targets. The system's reaction time (time between target detection and missile launch) is 6-8 seconds.
A single missile system can simultaneously attack eight aircraft or missile targets, with a target-hit probability of 90 percent for any of these targets. The system uses the currently most-advanced vertical launching technology, a phased-array radar, and a composite-guidance warhead. The HQ-16 entered PLA service around 2005.


2. HQ-17, HQ-18 is a slightly improved version of the Russian Tor-M1 system with a range up to 30 km and altitude up to 15 km. In 2000, the PLA decided to construct, by 2002-2003, between 10 and 12 air defense brigades equipped with hundreds of Tor-M1s and HQ-17s, as well as Chinese original KS-1 and KS-1A ADM systems.

3. Feimeng (?) PGZ-95, having its prototype in the Russian Tunguska missile artillery system. It combines one ADM launcher and four 25 mm anti-aircraft guns on a single mobile platform. The system, with an altitude up to 3.5 km and a range up to 6 km, provides high-density fire and reportedly is extremely effective against cruise missiles and fighters of the fourth generation (F-15s, F-16s and F-18s). Serial production was mastered in 1999.
There are reportedly a few hundred batteries active forming a huge blanket over High value targets.

So indeed it is a real technological logistical and tactical challenge for the IAF to penetrate this near impregnable air defence network.

And it can only get harder with the intoduction of the Russian S400 and S500 trimuf systems which reportedly can intercept targets beyond 200 kms putting them in a class similar to American PAC-3 ABM systems.

:roll: So any strike/SEAD mission would be an extremely bloddy one by sheer virtue of the fact that the numbers would be too overwhelming if not the technology as each of those systems in the four level network of Air Defence is extremely capable and abundantly deployed.

aditp
BRFite
Posts: 433
Joined: 15 Jul 2008 07:25
Location: Autoland

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby aditp » 01 Aug 2008 20:10

And it can only get harder with the intoduction of the Russian S400 and S500 trimuf systems which reportedly can intercept targets beyond 200 kms putting them in a class similar to American PAC-3 ABM systems.


:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

True, the S300 and S400 are the latest in Russian SAMs, with glossy brochures, but they are unproven in combat. In the recent Israeli airstrikes against Syria, the S300 fire control radar was successfully suppressed by the Israelis...something to do with the commercially available micro chips used by the Russians in the S300 systems. I guess, given the deep levels of defence cooperation between India and Israel, probably they will share this information with us.

Well afterall the US needs to contain China and Israel should help (being the no 2 defence supplier to India).

PaulJI
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Mar 2007 00:49

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby PaulJI » 01 Aug 2008 20:40

Rahul M wrote:vivek, you might want to take into account that PLAAF may use their bases in southern chengdu and even guangzhou to make direct passes over the NE overflying burma.

I wasn't aware that there were airbases in the south of the city of Chengdu, or in the city of Guangzhou.

Guangzhou is much too far away, & even Chengdu isn't very close. Better to use any bases in the western part of Szechuan province, or even better, in western Yunnan, which borders on NE Burma.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16223
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Rahul M » 01 Aug 2008 20:45

^^^
military regions, not cities.

kaangeya
BRFite
Posts: 139
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 02:34

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby kaangeya » 02 Aug 2008 08:35

It is not case so much that the PLAAF AD network is deep and broad. It is the case the the IAF has still a long way to go before it can take on a strategic attack role. Remember barring the USAF and to a slightly lesser extent the RuAF all the world's AFs are still tactical forces, not tru strategic forces. Of course anyone working with the RuAF on ground based air defence is hard to beat.

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 03 Aug 2008 13:32

IAF STATION MOHANBARI –DIBRUGARH-ASSAM -1627 HRS-JUMBO CHARGE FLIGHT – 12 X MIG 27 PLUS 12 XMIG 21 BISON

Wong commander Dipesh waited, strapped into the swing wing Mig 27 s . The first confirmation of incoming PLAAF strike fleet have just come in and the 24 Mig 21 Bisons and Mig27s were ready to take on the challenge. The strike target was still not clearly confirmed by the flankers who were right at the moment engaing the escorts and only the Chinese flankers and thunders have been blown out of sky will the massive counter air operation by the bisons and bahadurs will be launched and there was no question of slip up as the H-6 may be carrying nuclear tipped air to surface missiles

While the Mig 21s were armed with both R-73 and R-77 s the 12 odd Mig 27s would be using their devastating 6 barrel Gsh 30-6 anti tank guns in close in air combat as the the final layer of air interception over Arunachal .Anything slipping by will have to be handled by the surface to air missile batteries and the shilka anti aircraft guns in point defense role.

In the distance the first rays of sun started turning the majestic Brahmaputra red .The radio came alive as on cue

- Juliet Charlie lead-tower –start motor and taxi to main runway hold point – expect immediate take off clearance –over
- Copy that tower –Juliet Charlie lead – flight rolling –over

It is said the Mig27 s are perhaps the noisiest aircraft in IAF inventory and Wing commander Dipesh knew it was not an exaggeration.As he advanced the throttle forward the massive R-29B-300 Tumnasky engine bellowed like a wounded buffalo and pushed the swing wing fighter bomber easily forward off the parking apron and into the taxiway .

T
he Indian Air Force’s (IAF) MiG-27 fighter aircraft will now have night attack capability after an avionics upgrade, besides superior navigation systems and an improved targetting accuracy, thanks to the success of a Bangalore- based avionics unit of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

For the first time, such a full-fledged avionics upgrade has been indigenously undertaken by a two dozen strong team, according to air force sources.

The work comprised systems design and integration that adhered to the two-year project schedule —minus time overruns normally associated with the DRDO.

DRDO bagged the contract which might have gone either to the Russians or Israelis and spent only Rs 20-22 crore. Apart from lower initial costs that foreign vendors offer for such projects, the catch lies in higher life cycle costs subsequently. Foreign vendors have a ‘captive’ client whose weapon system uses foreign equipment/systems manufactured in their countries and hence gives them an upper hand in price negotiations.

The avionics upgrade involves interfacing new Israeli systems like forward looking infra- red, headup display, video recording system and digital map generator.

Besides, French equipment that includes inertial navigation system aided by global positioning systems, multi-function display and laser ranger marked target seeker with older Russian systems like auto pilot, crash data recorder and armament control system.

Significantly the re-usability of software and hardware that drives the core avionics computer is a spin-off. For instance, this core avionics computer has partially been used in the Jaguar aircraft and subsequently proposed for the MiG- 29. The MiG-27 avionics project itself was a spin-off from the Sukhoi- 30 MKI avionics upgrade.

This drastically reduces the manhours on research and development and money saved for future avionics upgrade and can be done at a fraction of the cost.

The upgraded MiG-27 enhances the IAF’s operational capability and successfully engage targets with ease. The ‘circular error of probability’ in firing/bombing is reduced due to better weapon aiming computations and increased navigational accuracy. Considering that the IAF has six MiG-27 fighter aircraft squadrons this avionics upgrade is a ‘force multiplier’ in airpower terms.

For air force commanders, superior avionics means that only five MiG-27 aircraft would undertake an offensive mission rather than 10 aircraft due to higher chances of success.

The MiG-27 also undertakes photo reconnaissance




Nitesh
BRFite
Posts: 893
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 22:22
Location: Bangalore
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Nitesh » 03 Aug 2008 13:45

Shankar wrote:IAF STATION MOHANBARI –DIBRUGARH-ASSAM -1627 HRS-JUMBO CHARGE FLIGHT – 12 X MIG 27 PLUS 12 XMIG 21 BISON



The operation begins kick chinkis hard. :evil: :evil:

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 03 Aug 2008 17:06

IAF STATION MOHANBARI –DIBRUGARH-ASSAM -1629 HRS-JUMBO CHARGE FLIGHT – 12 X MIG 27 PLUS 12 XMIG 21 BISON

- tower -juliet charlie flight in take off position -request immediate clearance for take off -over
- juliet charlie flight - you are cleared for immediate formation take off -fly runway heading to 6000 meters -turn right heading 295 -contact Charlie sierra lead for target vector -target type for your flight is hotel -good luck and good hunting dont scrimp on ammo -over
-message understood tower - rolling now -fly runway heading to angels 6000- heading 295 -contact sierra Charlie lead for target vector-over

The first of the four Mig 27s rolled into take off position and the first two went to full military power .The noise level was horrendous as they lit thier afterburner as soon as the aircraft started rolling firmly on the run way .The other two bahadurs waited launching in thier take off run only when the first two have cleared the perimeter wall to avoid wake turbulence . The next pair came onto the hammerhead even before the last two have crossed the halfway mark .

far above Dipesh slapped up the undercarriage and trimmed down his climb rate to 3000 mtr/min ,the indicated air speed was 600 km/hr and he moved the wing swing lever to 45 degree and the agile fighter bomb responded immediately as the drag reduced jumping up to 770 km/hr and kept on accelerating as dipesh slowly leveled out at 6000 mtrs over sea level . The hills of Arunachal was below him and as he put the radar on standby and changed to air net frequency to contact the flankers in about 10 minutes .

The MiG-23 is a third generation fighter, as such is one of the best, nevertheless it has fought mostly against fourth generation fighters

The MiG-23 is not a slouch, it is a fighter of its generation, agile in its own way but it is not as agile as a fourth generation fighter, it can not hold more than 8.5 Gs in operational service less than the 9Gs usually withstand by the fourth generation aircraft and that characterize them.
In terms of acceleration, it can out accelerate even the F-16 and F-18 and even has better climb rate than the F-14A.
The MiG-23 was designed as a response to the F-4 Phantom II, the first MiG-21s were basically second generation fighters, they lacked the missile armament and avionics associated with the third generation.

The best MiG-23 variants can hold 8.5Gs below the speed of Mach 0.85; the F-4E Phantom II barely can hold a max of 7.6Gs in operational service.
The MiG-23ML load factor is 8.5Gs below Mach 0.85 and beyond Mach 0.85 is 7.5Gs, The MiG-23MF has a slightly lower load factor of 8Gs at Mach 0.85 and a load factor of 7Gs above Mach 0.85, note that the IAI Kfir had a maximum load factor of 7.6Gs, this factors made the MiG-23 more than a match for the F-4 and Kfir, this forced in 1982 to the Israeli air force to rely on F-15s and F-16s as the main Israeli fighters since the MiG-23 clearly out machted the IAI Kfir in the air to air arena and was slightly better than the F-4.

The MiG-23 was also a fast design slightly faster than the F-4 Phantom and much faster than the Mirage III, Mirage F1 and MiG-21.
.

when the MiG-23M faced the F-4E in an air battle at the speeds of 800-1100 km/h at low and medium altitudes with the overloads at their max limits and close to the maximum of the thrust, MiG-23M in the horizontal maneuver exceeded the F-4E

Analysis of the F-4E and MiG-23ML manuals shows that both aircraft are quit comparable, the F-4E holds a max sustained turn rate at sea level of 14.7 degrees/second, however it drops to 11.7 degrees/second at 10000 feet/3040 meters of altitude, however analisys of their turn radius shows that the MiG-23ML has a slight advantage over the F-4E at heights from 1000 meters to 5000 meters of altitude at speeds between Mach 0.5 to Mach 0.9

The IAI Kfir used to simulate the MiG-23 for the US navy Top Gun Program, despite the Kfir is as fast as the MiG-23 it is not as agile in terms of Max sustained turn rate however it has a better Max instantaneous turn rate here some data for the IAI Kfir:

Practically in the entire altitude range at the speeds of 700-1100 km/h, the MiG-23M surpassed the Mirage F-1 on maneuverability and rates of climb. At speeds more than 1100 km/h at average and high altitudes, the MiG-23M had lower sustained turn rates than the Mirage F1.

he MiG-23 was armed with superb weaponry , it was equipped with the AA-11 from the mid 1980s, and could fire its AA-8/R-60MK and R-73 cued by the TP-23/26 IRST systems, this type of armament was absent from most of the third generation fighter aircraft and even fourth generation fighters until the late 1990s.

It had a Doppler radar with look down/shoot down capability. Its best versions had a radar that detected targets at a range of 90km and IRST systems that can detect targets at 50km of range.

The MiG-23MLD was the most perfect modification in the MiG-23 family. This aircraft has an optimum aerodynamic configuration, ensuring an essential improvement in maneuverability, this was achieved with a slight modification of its airframe aerodynamics. The MiG-23MLD has the much more improved radar Saphir-23MLA (N-008), this radar is capable of a searching and tracking of up to six aerial targets. The early radar weapons system of American fighter F -15 did not possess this capability.
The IRST system was inmune to electronic jamming and ECM, this system could also cue air to air missiles such as the R-23/24, R-60MK and the R-73

The MiG-23 could engage and dogfight with third generation fighters such as the F-4 or Mirage F1 in equal terms but it could not do it likewise with fourth generation aircraft such as the F-16, F-15 and F-14.

The MiG-23 could fly at the angles of attack to 24-26 deg., which ensured it the definite advantages over the western fighter aircraft of the 2nd and 3erd generations. But with the advent of the aircraft of the 4th generation this superiority was lost (F-16 of different modifications they had a limitation on the angle of attack of 26-28 deg; a F-15C could sustain an angle of attack of 30 deg.)
However at high angles of attack, the MiG-23MLD creators attained the stability parameters and controllability, comparable with the flight AoA characteristics of the F-16.

At the speeds of 900 km/h and 1200 km/h the F-15 has better turn rate than the MiG-23 at different heights.
The F-16 also is far more maneuverable it has a Max instantaneous turn rate of 26 deg/sec while the best MiG-23 max instantaneous turn rate is 16.7 deg/sec, other turn parameters are the sustained turn rate and load factor at a turn but again the F-16 is superior to the MiG-23 in these too, the F-16 has a Max sustained turn rate of 21.5 deg/sec while the MiG-23ML has a Max sustained turn rate is 14.1 deg/sec

However the MiG-23 still could fight the F-16s with some advantages on its side at least from the 1970s to the late 1980s, when the F-16s lacked BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air to air missiles, this was just until the late 1980s before the AIM-120 and AIM-7 became part of the F-16 operational armament in the early 1990s.

From the 1970s to the late 1980s, the MiG-23 could simply rule the engagement and engage and disengage at will when it faced the F-16 in air combat. it could fly fast and do swifts attacks and disengage quickly avoiding getting involved in a dog fight with the F-16.
The MIG-23ML still can fly at Mach 2.35 even armed with two R-24s, this means that swift attacks against the F-16 would be very likely successful and even more in the 1980s when the F-16 lacked any BVR armament and only relied in the short range AIM-9 Sidewinder

The Soviet Aggressor MiG-23 unit used the same tactics when they played the role of aggressor aircraft in mock air combat training exercises against Soviet MiG-29s at the Marii air base in the former Soviet republic of Turkmenistan thought out most of the 1980s
The MiG-23 played the role of aggressor aircraft in the Soviet counterpart to the US Naval Fighter Weapons School located at the NAS of Miramar, popularly known as TOPGUN.
A well flown MiG-23 could achieve excellent kill rates against MiG-29s, in fact the MiG-23 aggressors achieved kill rates in mock combat versus inexperienced MiG-29 pilots of 1:2 in their favor.

An interesting anecdote about the MiG-23 agility was given by the Dutch pilot Leon Van Maurer who had more than 1200 hrs flying F-16s and flew against MiG-23ML Flogger Gs from air bases in Germany and the USA as part of NATO`s aerial mock combat training with Soviet equipment; he said the MiG-23 has superiority on the vertical plain over the F-16A, and horizontally is just slightly inferior to the F-16A, he also said the MiG-23ML had better BVR capabilities.

This was confirmed by the Israelis too when they obtained a Syrian MiG-23MLD that was flown to Israel by a Syrian defector and tested its flying characteristics, they were impressed with the quick acceleration the MiG-23MLD had, they even claimed that the MiG-23 has better acceleration performance than the F-16 and F-18


asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 194
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby asbchakri » 04 Aug 2008 11:36

Shankar wrote:IAF STATION MOHANBARI –DIBRUGARH-ASSAM -1629 HRS-JUMBO CHARGE FLIGHT – 12 X MIG 27 PLUS 12 XMIG 21 BISON

- tower -juliet charlie flight in take off position -request immediate clearance for take off -over
- juliet charlie flight - you are cleared for immediate formation take off -fly runway heading to 6000 meters -turn right heading 295 -contact Charlie sierra lead for target vector -target type for your flight is hotel -good luck and good hunting dont scrimp on ammo -over
-message understood tower - rolling now -fly runway heading to angels 6000- heading 295 -contact sierra Charlie lead for target vector-over

The first of the four Mig 27s rolled into take off position and the first two went to full military power .The noise level was horrendous as they lit thier afterburner as soon as the aircraft started rolling firmly on the run way .The other two bahadurs waited launching in thier take off run only when the first two have cleared the perimeter wall to avoid wake turbulence . The next pair came onto the hammerhead even before the last two have crossed the halfway mark .

far above Dipesh slapped up the undercarriage and trimmed down his climb rate to 3000 mtr/min ,the indicated air speed was 600 km/hr and he moved the wing swing lever to 45 degree and the agile fighter bomb responded immediately as the drag reduced jumping up to 770 km/hr and kept on accelerating as dipesh slowly leveled out at 6000 mtrs over sea level . The hills of Arunachal was below him and as he put the radar on standby and changed to air net frequency to contact the flankers in about 10 minutes .

The MiG-23 is a third generation fighter, as such is one of the best, nevertheless it has fought mostly against fourth generation fighters



Why r we discussing Mig 23 r we using them in the Scenario and werent they phased out?? :?:

andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1571
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby andy B » 04 Aug 2008 11:40

asbchakri wrote:
Shankar wrote:IAF STATION MOHANBARI –DIBRUGARH-ASSAM -1629 HRS-JUMBO CHARGE FLIGHT – 12 X MIG 27 PLUS 12 XMIG 21 BISON

- tower -juliet charlie flight in take off position -request immediate clearance for take off -over
- juliet charlie flight - you are cleared for immediate formation take off -fly runway heading to 6000 meters -turn right heading 295 -contact Charlie sierra lead for target vector -target type for your flight is hotel -good luck and good hunting dont scrimp on ammo -over
-message understood tower - rolling now -fly runway heading to angels 6000- heading 295 -contact sierra Charlie lead for target vector-over

The first of the four Mig 27s rolled into take off position and the first two went to full military power .The noise level was horrendous as they lit thier afterburner as soon as the aircraft started rolling firmly on the run way .The other two bahadurs waited launching in thier take off run only when the first two have cleared the perimeter wall to avoid wake turbulence . The next pair came onto the hammerhead even before the last two have crossed the halfway mark .

far above Dipesh slapped up the undercarriage and trimmed down his climb rate to 3000 mtr/min ,the indicated air speed was 600 km/hr and he moved the wing swing lever to 45 degree and the agile fighter bomb responded immediately as the drag reduced jumping up to 770 km/hr and kept on accelerating as dipesh slowly leveled out at 6000 mtrs over sea level . The hills of Arunachal was below him and as he put the radar on standby and changed to air net frequency to contact the flankers in about 10 minutes .

The MiG-23 is a third generation fighter, as such is one of the best, nevertheless it has fought mostly against fourth generation fighters



Why r we discussing Mig 23 r we using them in the Scenario and werent they phased out?? :?:


Possible reason could be that bcoz the Mig 27 is derived from the Mig 23 it still retains most of its aerodynamic qualitites. The perfomance would be very similar for the 23 and the 27. Also although we have retired the 23, the 27 is still in service and in force since the upgrade by HAL....just my 2 cents worth

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 04 Aug 2008 15:37

COBRA STRIKE FLIGHT -INDIAN AIR FORCE STATION –APPROACHING LINE OF ACTUAL CONTROL -1630 HRS

Squadron leader Jamwal checked his radar scope . The six Chinese flankers in extended diamond formation at 12000 mtrs ,50 kms ahead of the incoming H-6 formation which were flying exactly at 9000 meters in three consecutive waves of 15 aircraft each . The whole formation was moving quite slow, at 650 km/hr . It was time to take them apart.

His advantage the detection range and tracking capability of the Indian sukhois which gave him the advantage of time in planning and launching his weapons ,the Chinese flankers were almost as good in all respects except detection range and that put them up to a difficult situation in BVR combat .

He planned on a saturation strike since the number of flankers on both side was same ,each Indian SU-30MKI taking on a Chinese MKM on one to one basis .It was important to neutralize the PLAAF flanker threat before the Migs engage the bombers

- cobra strike lead –flight – execute beta alpha strike mode on my count -3 2 1 now

The six Su 30 MKI s broke formation ,lit their after burners and went for their predetermined target aircraft in unison. The six flankers covered the vertical space at different altitudes from 8000 meters to 12000 meters in pairs and activated their radar for weapon launch

- cobra strike lead –cobra strike flight – confirm ready for missile launch
The confirmations came in at once
- cobra strike lead – cobra strike flight –you are weapons free –fire at will

each Indian flanker turned into the enemy and launched 3 R -77 s each two at the primary target and one at the secondary target with an intentional overlap of target so that each Chinese flanker was targeted by three missiles controlled by two different aircraft .

The R-77 s dropped free from the inner wing pylons and lit their solid rocket motors and climbed up and then arced inwards racing for the now doomed Su 30 MKM s which did not have by chance or design the thrust vectoring super agility to avoid a multiple missile strike. They however tried and some succeeded by diving for the rocky frigid mountain top. Four R-77 s found four separate targets and exploded.

Sqadron leader Jamwal did not have time to look at the beauty of the ensuing fire balls or call in his kills as the threat warning receiver bleeped continuously –confirming one or mre Chinese missiles have some how managed to get a lock on him .He cursed himself as he flicked on the ECM pod and dived for the ground just like his adversaries leaving a stream and flares in his wake

- cobra lead – cobra strike 2 – where the hell did that damn missile come from
- cobra 2 –lead –he is on your tail – break left and climb out for me to take him out
- copy that 2 – initiating evasion now

Jamwal pulled the stick all the backwards and then twisted it sharply to right .the flanker responded immediately ,obeying her masters command as it corkscrewed into a vertical climb the canards and thrust vectoring nozzles moving to their design limits to keep the heavy aircraft under control .

Captain San thought he had a sure kill till the Indian flanker did the impossible, it went from a shallow dive into a vertical twisting climb without a noticeable effort .As he leveled out and tried to climb back, his radar warning receiver went on a shriek .

F/L Joy deep selected a R-73 and was pleased to hear it growl on his earphone ,the shoot prompt came on the head up display and he gently squeezed the fire button . The single R-73 leapt off the starboard wing tip double pylon and flew straight into the port engine exhaust of the Chinese flanker trying to climb back into combat altitude .

Sans flanker disintegrated in mid air –there was no ejection

- cobra strike lead –two –you are in the clear –splash one flanker
- thanks wing –came the relaxed voice of Jamwal over R/T time to let the mig boys have some fun

Suddenly in a matter of 3 minutes the Chinese strike fleet was without any effective top over .Reinforcements were being called in frantically but it will take them at least 20 minutes for them to be in position and twenty minutes is too long in modern net centric air combat

Nitesh
BRFite
Posts: 893
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 22:22
Location: Bangalore
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Nitesh » 04 Aug 2008 15:47

Shankar wrote:COBRA STRIKE FLIGHT -INDIAN AIR FORCE STATION –APPROACHING LINE OF ACTUAL CONTROL -1630 HRS


So battle for air space defense begins. Jamwal sahab, you are about to get promoted. Be safe.

parshuram
BRFite
Posts: 293
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 09:52

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby parshuram » 04 Aug 2008 16:08

Shankar Paaji

No Offence , But with 46 bombers and target being a high profile Indian Oil Depot and plus PLAAF knowing the MKI capabilities . It would really kiddish be on PLAAF commander's part that He did nt insisted on PLAAF AWACS .This could have given them a better detection range considering the fact hat they knew better that H-6 bombers are pathetically slow to respond to 4 gen fighter . this seems to be a sucide mission for PLAAF :?:

Rupesh
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 19:14
Location: Somewhere in South Central India

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Rupesh » 04 Aug 2008 16:12

parshuram wrote:Shankar Paaji

No Offence , But with 46 bombers and target being a high profile Indian Oil Depot and plus PLAAF knowing the MKI capabilities . It would really kiddish be on PLAAF commander's part that He did nt insisted on PLAAF AWACS .This could have given them a better detection range considering the fact hat they knew better that H-6 bombers are pathetically slow to respond to 4 gen fighter . this seems to be a sucide mission for PLAAF :?:


PLAAF and PLA are fully capable to commiting suicide... :D

Nitesh
BRFite
Posts: 893
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 22:22
Location: Bangalore
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Nitesh » 04 Aug 2008 16:12

parshuram wrote:Shankar Paaji

No Offence , But with 46 bombers and target being a high profile Indian Oil Depot and plus PLAAF knowing the MKI capabilities . It would really kiddish be on PLAAF commander's part that He did nt insisted on PLAAF AWACS .This could have given them a better detection range considering the fact hat they knew better that H-6 bombers are pathetically slow to respond to 4 gen fighter . this seems to be a sucide mission for PLAAF :?:

Boss seems like you are not following the scenario, remember two AWACS were shot down by MKI's that caused the chinkis to ground there fleet of AWACS.

parshuram
BRFite
Posts: 293
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 09:52

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby parshuram » 04 Aug 2008 16:21

Nitesh wrote:
parshuram wrote:Shankar Paaji

No Offence , But with 46 bombers and target being a high profile Indian Oil Depot and plus PLAAF knowing the MKI capabilities . It would really kiddish be on PLAAF commander's part that He did nt insisted on PLAAF AWACS .This could have given them a better detection range considering the fact hat they knew better that H-6 bombers are pathetically slow to respond to 4 gen fighter . this seems to be a sucide mission for PLAAF :?:

Boss seems like you are not following the scenario, remember two AWACS were shot down by MKI's that caused the chinkis to ground there fleet of AWACS.



Fair Enough But this is a war If they will not bleed there resources here , where else they will , I bet chinee too love there country and i don't doubt that they are brave enough not to be taken aback.:) . My doubt was for the critical nature of the strike itself . it was supposed to be revenge strike and i guess PLAAF commanders would have been ordered to carry it out effectively at any cost .

Well as i said no Offence , It is just my opinion . I may be wrong

Nitesh
BRFite
Posts: 893
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 22:22
Location: Bangalore
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Nitesh » 04 Aug 2008 16:29

parshuram wrote:
Fair Enough But this is a war If they will not bleed there resources here , where else they will , I bet chinee too love there country and i don't doubt that they are brave enough not to be taken aback.:) . My doubt was for the critical nature of the strike itself . it was supposed to be revenge strike and i guess PLAAF commanders would have been ordered to carry it out effectively at any cost .

Well as i said no Offence , It is just my opinion . I may be wrong


The point here is where they are trying to attack? The are attacking in border areas not deep inside indian territory so the AWACS might have been saved for some other day. And it takes some time to come out of a shock of loosing four of your prized assets (1 A50 and two tankers) and regarding the effectiveness, the sheer number of bombers is to make sure that the strike should be successful. But it is not going to be :evil:

No offense mate :)

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 04 Aug 2008 16:50

CHARGING JUMBO FLIGHT -12 X MIG 27 PLUS 12 X MIG 21 BISON - INDIAN AIRSPACE -ARUNACHAL PRADESH

wing commander Dinesh checked the newly installed moving map display and looked outside to confirm it is indeed working as advertised by the vendor .To the north west he could see the silvery stream of Brahmaputra yet to attain the awesome dimensions after it enters the floodplains of Assam. He scanned the console -wing swing set at 45 degree for transonic flight at altitude ,weapon system in safe mode ,guns unarmed and safe ,radar on stand by ,indicated air speed 850 km/hr ,altitude 7000 meters and steady .

His groups task would be to catch and shoot H-6 bombers that escaped being shot down by the R-73 salvo fired from the bisons . Since the Mig21s did not have much endurance at this range they will fire their missiles in two salvos and return to base for re arming and refelling . The H-6 s were expected to dive low to escape the heat seekers and then will not be able to gain speed or altitude quickly . He and his flight
mates were expected to do the scavenging work - catch the low fliers and stragglers one by one and shoot them out of the sky .

- charlie -juliet lead - target vector - 325 - 200 km-9000 meters -engage -over
- copy charlie siera - 325 -200-9000 -engaging now

The 12 mig 27s tucked back their wings to maximum sweep of 72.5 degree and lit the afterburner . Dinesh went supersonic even before he could settle back into the some what outdated ejection seat . The moving map display was now changing rapidly and so was the landscape below him . Very soon the lush high altitude forests of Arunachal gave way to icy barren wasteland of Tibetan Plateau .Dinesh eased up on the after burner and armed up the six barreled rotary cannon . Afew more minutes and he will know whether you can really kill a bomber with an anti tank gun.




The Soviet military became interested in the ability of aircraft guns to destroy not only the new APCs and light tanks of their potential opponents, but also possibly the American main battle tank M1 Abrams. For this purpose, guns of larger calibre firing more powerful ammunition were required. To address that need the development of a 45 mm smoothbore aircraft gun was ordered, which would have used "active-reactive" rounds (involving a HEAT element in the nose) with increased armour penetration. However the creation of the new gun and ammunition for it demanded time so an interim solution was accepted: the installation of a new multi-barrelled 30 mm gun, ensuring a high rate of fire and a considerable weight of fire per second.

The change from 23 mm to 30 mm calibre doubled the shell weight (from 175-185 gram to 400 gram), and increased the explosive charge by almost three times. Improved ballistics provided not only good armour penetration but also greater effectiveness against other targets. Accuracy was considerably improved and ammunition of new and more effective types was developed.
A new cannon of multi-barrelled rotary design increased the firing rate by 3-4 times, important given the short time for an attacktimes, important given the short time for an attack. As with the US M61 'Gatling', the barrel group rotated continuously with each barrel firing as it came into position. The prototype for this was the 30 mm AO-18 six-barrel gun designed by V.P.Gryazev and A.G.Shipunov. Its history goes back to June 15th 1963 when the Council of Ministers of the USSR approved the development of a rapid-fire gun with a rotating group of barrels for the AK-630 naval mounting. The gun was designed in conjunction with a new 30 mm round with improved ballistics through an increased propellant charge and new shells. Both electric and hydraulic motors were considered to power the rotation of the barrel group and gun mechanism, but they needed about 40-50 h.p.. The designers therefore selected a self-powered scheme using gas tapped from the barrels. This permitted a compact gun system, of particular value for aircraft use. The new cannon, designated GSh-6-30A, had a weight of 145 kg (AO-18 = 205 kg) and rate of fire of 5,500-6,100 rounds per minute. The muzzle velocity was 850 m/s.


To reduce the influence of gun firing on the fuselage, the axis of a gun was inclined downwards 1°13 '. [Ed: this would probably have been to prevent 'pitch-down' on firing.] The operational development of the gun system was carried out by Tula TsceKB and the "Zenith" arms development group, with the aid of experts from scientific research institute of aircraft systems (TsceNIIAS), who were in charge of test firing at the range situated near the Moscow suburb of Faustovo. In 1975 the gun system was accepted into Soviet Air Force service.

The capabilities of the gun and the force of its fire left few people unmoved. Even during the ground tests of "Shestistvolka", all of the workers wanted to sit down and put their hands over their ears. Firing did not even sound similar to the usual gun bursts: the deafening, rolling impact, lasting for a couple of seconds as the gun threw 100 kg of shells at the target, was felt rather than heard.

In combination with its sighting system the GSh-6-30А was very accurate. In Soviet Air Force regiments gun firing was often exercised during training flights. Usually the ammunition belts alternated two OFZ rounds with one BZ, but on examination flights each fourth or fifth round was a tracer. Firing was possible in a manual mode, with "approximate" targeting using the fixed grid of a sight. In automatic aiming mode the PrNK-23 navigation system was used. It gave the necessary corrections and lead on an S-17VG sight together with information about the target and effective firing range. When detonating on impact with the ground, the shell fragments scattered up to 200 metres in the air and represented a serious danger to the aircraft. In short 40-round bursts, lasting a fraction of a second, the gun sent to the target about 16 kg of "effective load". In training flights, the gun was loaded with only 30-40 cartridges, sufficient for improving shooting skills.


Dinesh and his team mates were fully loaded (300 round ) and no compulsion to save on barrel life . He looked forward to confirm how many shells will be actually required to demolish a H-6 bomber in flight.
Last edited by Shankar on 04 Aug 2008 17:08, edited 1 time in total.

Rupesh
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 19:14
Location: Somewhere in South Central India

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Rupesh » 04 Aug 2008 16:53

parshuram wrote:
Nitesh wrote:
parshuram wrote:Shankar Paaji

No Offence , But with 46 bombers and target being a high profile Indian Oil Depot and plus PLAAF knowing the MKI capabilities . It would really kiddish be on PLAAF commander's part that He did nt insisted on PLAAF AWACS .This could have given them a better detection range considering the fact hat they knew better that H-6 bombers are pathetically slow to respond to 4 gen fighter . this seems to be a sucide mission for PLAAF :?:

Boss seems like you are not following the scenario, remember two AWACS were shot down by MKI's that caused the chinkis to ground there fleet of AWACS.



Fair Enough But this is a war If they will not bleed there resources here , where else they will , I bet chinee too love there country and i don't doubt that they are brave enough not to be taken aback.:) . My doubt was for the critical nature of the strike itself . it was supposed to be revenge strike and i guess PLAAF commanders would have been ordered to carry it out effectively at any cost .



Thats why they are using 46 bombers, even if one makes it they achieve their objective. Chineese do not care for loss of life if their larger objectives are met. During the "great leap forward" millions of chineese died. For improving the look of their cities millions are made home less and driven out. what i mean to say is that the chineese govt does not care for a few lives.

asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 194
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby asbchakri » 04 Aug 2008 17:37

Nitesh wrote:
parshuram wrote:Shankar Paaji

No Offence , But with 46 bombers and target being a high profile Indian Oil Depot and plus PLAAF knowing the MKI capabilities . It would really kiddish be on PLAAF commander's part that He did nt insisted on PLAAF AWACS .This could have given them a better detection range considering the fact hat they knew better that H-6 bombers are pathetically slow to respond to 4 gen fighter . this seems to be a sucide mission for PLAAF :?:

Boss seems like you are not following the scenario, remember two AWACS were shot down by MKI's that caused the chinkis to ground there fleet of AWACS.


Here is a reminder, and also it was not too long ago

PLAAF FLIGHT RED EYE -250 KMS NORTH EAST OF OKINAWA JIMA
2X IL 78 2X A-50 4X SU 30 MKK- 0915 HRS.

The PLAAF air battle commander could not believe his eyes .The eight fast moving small dots were converging on his command at nearly mach 4 and had the characteristics of a typical radar guided air to air missiles ,doing several mid course corrections on the way. Two of the escorting flankers tried to stop the incoming missiles by launching their own missiles but he could see they were totally use less at such range and flight profile. As he ordered all the aircraft to dive for the deck and deploy chaff just with the faint hope of confusing the robotic brain –the first of the KS 172 hit his port wing to airframe junction and blew it off into the blue sky with the explosive force of 50 kg of directional high explosive. The first A-50 flew on for a few seconds powered by the starboard engines then went in to a roll to starboard, cart wheeling into the waves in a plume of black smoke. The second reserve mainstay met the same fate after 10 seconds as two KS 172 s smacked into its airframe and turned it into an ugly fire ball and mass of molten aluminum which was just seconds before an expensive piece of flying machine.Finally the two IL-78 s went off like a pair of massive air detonated mini nuclear bomb including tell tale signs of small mushroom cloud

The strike flight was suddenly without any support over ocean as they cruised on regardless towards the Virat Carrier group –with revenge in their heart

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 06 Aug 2008 14:15

CHARGING JUMBO FLIGHT -12 X MIG 27 PLUS 12 X MIG 21 BISON - INDIAN AIRSPACE -ARUNACHAL PRADESH-1650 HRS

F/L Manjit switched on his air search radar and also cautiously looked at his fuel gauge . He has less than 50% fuel left and still o launch his missiles. The mas of Chinese bombers were daunting by sheer numbers. At 12000 plus meters he was appreciably above their cruise altitude. It was important to maintain fire discipline at the same time finish launching the missiles in most effective way within the allotted strike window .

The PLAAF bombers were now in four compact waves about 1000 meters below his flight and a closing speed of nearly 1600 km/hr. He had the option of firing off his R-73 from a head on position or overshoots the formation and do perfect tail shot. But that option will cut into his limited fuel availability even more.


- Charlie jumbo lead – monkey 12 –request permission to overshoot bandits and tail strike –over
- Standby monkey 12 –came the assured voice of flight lead

Wing commander Dinesh checked the position of his Mig 27s and knew he will have to get out of the way of the incoming r-73 the Mig 21 s will be firing from behind the H-6 bombers
- Charlie jumbo flight –lead-confirm IFF on –disperse on my count 3 2 1 now

The 12 mig 27s broke formation and 6 of them sharply turned to port and rest to starboard and then dived for the deck ,away from the projected path and expected maximum lock range of the about to be shot archers .

- Monkey 12 – you are cleared to execute strike – take care of fuel – fire at will –we are safe –repeat safe
- Copy that Charlie Juliet lead – executing missile strike now

The 12 Mig 21 bisons lit their tail for a few seconds and simply passed the large PLAAF bomber formation ignoring the bleeps from their radar warning receiver ,looped back and dived for the ground .The H-6 bombers were already dispersing in a random manner mostly diving for the ground cover and some tried to climb out of danger

Manjit turned into the bomber formation from behind. As he armed up the missiles the comforting growl of both his R-73 locking into a target came on and seconds later the SHOOT prompt came up on the head up display.He fired the missile on turn ,continued with the turn and fired off the second missile as the second lumbering H-6 floated into his wind screen . At this range the H-6s had no chance as one after another the R-73 launched from the Bisons tore into their formation. 24 missiles were launched and 18 H-6 bombers went down in a flash of orange fire and black smoke . The rest of the Chinese bombers scattered and tried to reform as their comrades smashed into the icy rocks far far below. There were some parachutes in the sky but not many.

-charlie Juliet lead –monkey 12 – splash two – returning base –over
-copy and conform the kills –monkey 12 – we see 18 H-6 down –good work –over

The Mig 27 s now came in at almost ground level attacked from below like a school of dolphins offered a sardine shoal. Dinesh was first off the block as he put his Mig27 a steep climb after one of the escaping H-6 and let go with a one second burst from his GSH 30 6 cannon .8 high explosive shells tore into the flimsy aluminum skin of the Chinese bomber and opened it up like a paper carton-from nose to tail . The 30 mm shells designed to tear open a main battle tank simply made the large bomber disappear in a series of secondary explosions as the bombs and missiles warheads cooked off under impact.

Wing commander Dinesh kept climbing and looped back into battle ,another H-6 now desperately trying to run back home .Dinesh did not feel any remorse as he calmly changed the wing sweep position to normal cruise mode and brought his floating cross wire to match the target square on the head up display . Another one second burst and the tail of the H-6 disintegrated, the bomber nosed down sharply and dived for the ground totally out of control and out of luck.

The m massacre continued, the Chinese bombers tried hard to escape turning and diving and deploying flares and chaff. But there was no countermeasure good enough to stop a high speed shell from the Mig27 s gun to go astray. The mig 27 s kept on turning back and attacking in a killing frenzy till the ammo was gone or the guns overheated and jammed .3 Mig 27 s went down too, as their pilots in heat of battle failed to heed the stall warning procedure. The one of the pilots could eject ,other two went down with their aircraft

The intense ultra close range air combat lasted less than 5 minutes .another 20 H-6 were down when Dinesh decided to break off and return to base. The remaining H-6 turned back, quite a few of them trailing fuel and hydraulic fluid and will not make home.

Rupesh
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 19:14
Location: Somewhere in South Central India

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Rupesh » 06 Aug 2008 14:32

Shankar wrote:
The intense ultra close range air combat lasted less than 5 minutes .another 20 H-6 were down when Dinesh decided to break off and return to base. The remaining H-6 turned back, quite a few of them trailing fuel and hydraulic fluid and will not make home.


Our refinery survives for the day!!! :D

asbchakri
BRFite
Posts: 194
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 11:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby asbchakri » 06 Aug 2008 14:51

Shankarda 2 posts every day :shock: wow brilliant and Thanks :lol: :lol: keep them comming. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

chandrabhan
BRFite
Posts: 190
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 10:59

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby chandrabhan » 10 Aug 2008 10:25

Shankar sir,
eagerly awaiting for your next post. Though I am the youngest member on this forum but i have been reading all the stuff for quiet sometime. The gurus with all their accumulated experience would understand that all the wars in future will encompass crippling of economic assets, that would include bringing down share market, jamming the websites and siphoning off the bank deposits - basically creating a panic situation. that may include seizing the assets of Indian companies in aggressor country.
Sir, can we include such scenario? In any case PLA owns/partly some of the biggest corporations in china. They should also be under target. any move by US overt or covert to help India in such case may be thwarted by china threatening to dump their $1 trillion of reserve in favor of euro.

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 11 Aug 2008 14:14

f GlaxoSmithKline Asia Pacific at the recent CIMA CEO Forum in Colombo. A panel discussion comprising Prakash Schaffter, moderator and Managing Director - Janashakthi Insurance Co, Nihal Fonseka, Colombo Stock Exchange Chairman and CEO - DFCC Bank, Jeremy Huxtable, Managing Director/CEO – Suntel, Keith Modder, Managing Director – Virtusa, Dave Ranasinghe, Managing Director – Bodyline and Mourad Mankarios, Principal Coach – Singapore Institute of Management, followed after the presentation.
Excerpts of Mr. Thyagarajan’s presentation:
Globalization has been around for a long time but there are recent enablers which have really given it a spur. First and foremost, in my view, the end of the Cold War and the subsequent fall of communism was an important turning point because it moved the debate away from ideology and pushed what works best when dealing with the market economy. That was the first trigger and enabler for globalization to take place. This led to several trade agreements, the WTO, the value of FTA in many parts of the world clearly increasing the dependence between countries on the trade front and enabled globalization to take place. Technology and innovations taking place was an important enabler because it impacted people's lives. Not just information technology but the kind of communications for example had big changes taking place.
Internet
The Internet has clearly transformed the way we operate today. There is nothing that is happening in one part of the world that is not known elsewhere. People move from one part of the world to the other. Sri Lankans are working in different parts of the world, people are moving across the EU; migration enables globalization because people with global mindsets are different.
There are a few key trends which are cemented now. Money flows; you can sit in any part of the world, invest your money in any part of the word, this enables money and ideas to flow and business in different part of the world to flow. Markets are becoming global. The demand for products have become global. Manufacturing and production are clearly a global phenomenon. A good example is from my own industry, the pharmaceutical industry; there was a time when countries required pharmaceutical companies to have a factory in the country as a license to market the product. This was a huge inefficiency because we had factories all over the world operating at 20 to 30% capacity. Today, we have global manufacturing centres which supply to different parts of the world that is much more efficient and beneficial. The same thing can be said for services. A trend which is clearly established is that talent has become global.
Rise of China, India
The rise of China and India is talked about everywhere. This has made a big impact not only in Asia but globally. Today, in no board room around the world is there a board meeting without a discussion on the China strategy or the India strategy. Investors want CEOs to explain the China strategy or what are you doing in India.
This is because in the last 20 years or so, China has been growing by 10 percent per annum, it is a tremendous economic power. India, more recently is also growing significantly. The size of these countries in terms of population and sheer economic might is having a big impact not only on these countries itself but also on Asia.
The South East Asian Tigers along with Korea and Taiwan became global much earlier. They followed a model of economic development which was export-led, they sought markets outside their own boundaries for many reasons. Many of them are small countries with a few exceptions and they saw being global ahead. They have lessons from which we can learn. As I said earlier, it's not just an economic impact but there are tremendous social and cultural implications. These countries have vast populations and it does raise tensions and questions of inclusive development.
Trickle down approach
In China and India, the impact of poverty from being a trickle down approach. If you travel around small towns in India, you can see the impact of technology and simple indicators. Some years ago, you had to stand in a queue and wait five or six years to get a telephone connection.
Today, people get land-lines and it's quite amazing to see everyone in rural India having mobile phones which is recent. There is a tremendous impact on poverty. Agriculture incomes are going up and per capita income is beginning to inch up. The other impact is the economic reform, regardless of the political view of the party in power. Reforms need to be compelling otherwise businesses won't survive.
This is happening across the board, in China which is a communist government, in Vietnam, in India with a coalition government. Economic reform is necessary. The centre is shifting towards the east. This may sound optimistic but economic growth is really coming from Asia rather than the traditionally developed European and US centered approach. I believe globalization is a clear opportunity in Asia.
The importance of China in world affairs, not just in economic terms is there for everybody to see. This wasn't the case a few years ago. Now the US was the single base superpower and does worry about what China thinks. China's views on policies are clearly sought and recognized because it represents a big chunk of the world. It has become the manufacturing centre of the world from safety pins to aircrafts. You can go to any part of the world and look at the label and find made in China. It is definitely an incredible share of the manufacturing world. Their trade reserves are huge and their foreign exchange reserves exceed trillions of dollars.
This gives them a power which is beyond China. Their ability to invest this is significant, the amount of sovereign funds, a significant proportion of American bonds are held by the Chinese and they are beginning to invest in different parts of the world. Clearly it is a different situation than it was 20 years ago. This has a clear impact not only for China but for all Asian economies. This is spurring demand for products that China manufactures and this is an example for others in the region to follow.
Sleeping giant wakens
The next example is India, my country. The best way to encapsulate what is happening in India is the sleeping giant is slowing waking up. Economic reform has been a recent phenomenon. The biggest champions of economic growth is the minister of West Bengal which is a communist government. Showcase India in a way which was unexpected. Nobody expected this to take place.
It was the Y2K fear and trend which brought the IT industry to the fore. It was small industry with 2 or 3 million people which has now put India on the world stage. It has become the service centre of the world. You can see it in big cities. There are four metros, Chennai, Mumbai, Kolkata and Delhi.
These are big cities now. Tier 2 cities are also beginning to see the impact of purchasing power which is visible if you travel to India. It spurs demand for consumer power and durables and the biggest brand names in the world. There was time when companies used to focus on the top layer of the segment, top 10 percent. Now the strategies are changing and unlocking the purchasing power of the middle. The number of Indian companies going global in terms of being competitive globally are going up and have now become so competent.
Global Indian talent
Lots of Indians are studying in the US. Even CEO's of global corporations are Indian. It has an impact on the strategies of these companies. More recently, trade between India and China increased tenfold and India is recognizing that it is not 'China or India' but 'China and India'.
Singapore
This is an interesting example for Sri Lanka. There is outstanding leadership in Singapore. Competence, calibre, high quality governance and leadership, political stability which is so key and enabled the country to focus on economic development. There is no other resource Singapore has besides its people and because of its size and leadership that has a global vision, they have a global mindset. The Singapore market is a global market. Size is no obstacle to excellence. The country has the best airport and airline in the world and it has nothing to do with its size. Size is not an issue at all.
Malta is no bigger than Singapore and how it reinvented itself by talking to the EU -- its transition from a low tech manufacturing centre to a service centre. A small country that took the opportunity to convert and reinvent itself. It focuses heavily on financial services and computing. All these strategies have seen a significant surge in investment between 2000 and 2008 and has an impact on jobs, on the economy growing and demand etc… more recently, many Arab countries are looking at Malta as a bridge into Europe and as this have can have implications for Sri Lanka.
India and global strategy
Indian IT companies are transforming the way they do business at home and globally. Mindset has to change. Attitudes have to change. Political instability impact is quite significant on social and cultural issues and there is a lot of debate around inclusive development. In many parts of Asia, there are countries where there are disparities in income and globalization is only aimed at people at the top. There are significant tensions at the other end of the social spectrum which is a huge challenge and not easy to go about. In developed countries, in the US, the rhetoric of the candidates for the presidential nomination on the democratic side, is very much this. Clearly, it is something which worries and concerns people across the world.
Sri Lanka – moving forward
Inter-dependency is significantly higher than before. It is here to stay. What are the implications of globalization for Sri Lanka? Look at the strengths Sri Lanka has and things here to focus on. Could Sri Lanka be a bridge to India. Sri Lanka and India ties have to be developed more strongly. But I think the political situation is key to any development.


The war was starting to hurt both India and China bad. Not so much as direct military cost but more for the economic hardships to both countries. South china seas and Indian ocean was quickly becoming a very expensive to traverse. And as the conflict ramped up the world community in general started getting alarmed. No one really wanted two of the worlds most populous countries and vibrant economies go down the road to nuclear conflict.

Both US and Russian federation leaned on India hard to get back from brinkmanship and they did the same to china in a more covert way .

The conflict would stop escalating and roll down in a few days time but till then a few interesting non conventional battles will still be fought but the war as such everyone knew will not continue for long

nits
BRFite
Posts: 854
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby nits » 11 Aug 2008 15:37

Shankar Da... i hope its not end of scenario and you will keep posting about non-conventional tactics... Or you can also start a fresh scenario... :D

Vivek - do you have any plans to start your scenarios... :?:

Rupesh
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 19:14
Location: Somewhere in South Central India

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Rupesh » 11 Aug 2008 15:50

Shankar Dada,

please do not end so soon :((

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby Shankar » 11 Aug 2008 15:55

Shankar Da... i hope its not end of scenario and you will keep posting about non-conventional tactics... Or you can also start a fresh scenario.


sure there will many conflicts between India and china till we both mature as a nation to understand the cost benefit of military conflict is always negative .

but also realize -believe it or not ordinary Chinese are not war mongers they are more particular about i=phones and overseas trips than we are

In course of my business visits to China a number of times and visit if them to my factory this understanding is re in forced .Does not mean however they will shy away from conflict but they will also calculate the economic and diplomatic cost at every juncture .

though China today is a major economic power they have lot of poverty too and the social disparity they have to remove if they want too avoid a socio economic collapse triggered by poor-rich divide

if I have to talk frankly in matters of infrastructure we are atleast 20 years behind china in roads 30 years -we also have to focus in those areas
war will happen but in short bursts more of extended border skirmishes on flsh in the high sea or a few surgical strikes
taht is what i have tried to portray in this scenario

JimmyJ
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 03:36
Location: Bangalore

Re: Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XI

Postby JimmyJ » 11 Aug 2008 16:11

Every war that generally happens these days makes me wonder about two things
1. What is the objective for beginning the war
2. What gains were made at the end of the war

Best examples are the Iraq and Afghan war, except that they are far from being over....

Shankarji just my feeling that your war is also not yet over.....Cause I want to read more of your scenarios.. :)


Return to “Military Scenarios Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest