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Possible Indian Military Scenarios - Part II

HarshS
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Let's have Khalid attack another convoy

Postby HarshS » 05 Jul 2005 13:49

Let not Khalid be sunk by the mistake of the Pakis. Let it be sunk by the effort of the Indian Navy (and Coast Guard).

Why would Khalid have been near the Orissa coast. Earlier it was off Andamans. Shouldn't it stay there and attack another convoy, where it can then meet its doom.

Yes, I'm all for bashing the brits. That uppity navy thinks it can send a sub off our coast to check about us!! Even the yanks don't do that, and anyway, we can' do anything to the yanks.

Let's have Astute attacked, damaged, but not sunk. Let there be some loss of life, but not a lot. It will be a good warning. Let's also tell the British press that their RN knew about Astute, but since they didn't officially tell us, in time, we took our own action. This will create a nice political storm for the Sun to take up. It will also win us some more respect.

How do we knock the Astute?

bagha
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Postby bagha » 05 Jul 2005 16:28

Want to kill a healthy sub in its prime.
If overwhelming numbers are required, then so be it.
This accidental death is no good for jingos, even though it echoes one version of the fate of the PNS Ghazi

saty
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Postby saty » 05 Jul 2005 16:32

But frankly the accidental death version is the one which could be highly probable by far...

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Postby Sharma » 06 Jul 2005 09:23

I think lets not concentrate too much on a single incident of Brahamputra-Khalid. Weare fighting a war. No need to hit Astute.....that'll be waste of time.....we should go on describing the war and not waste too much time in fighting single battles......

too much is still left for the war...armoured thrust in Sindh, air attack(Op Kartikeya style)......infantry attacks...capture of Lahore...dash to Muzzfrabad.....uprising in Baluchistan.......another fall of Dhaka...destruction of TSPN long with totaly razed Gwadar and Karachi.......defending NEFA.........and finaly Nuclear stand-off.......

Hope we have not forgot Sqd. Ldr. Jacob Martin.


I think we should recollect all the characters and themes created so far and give then suitable roles in the real-action..................

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 07 Jul 2005 11:38

sinking of khalid did not go well with pakistani armed forces and particularly with the president of pakaistan -himself being an ex general just out of uniform but still having the mindset of a soldier . Field marshal Kareen Khan was in fact livid with rage looking at world wide news coverage of indian coast guard sinking a state of the art strike submarine which happened to be the pride of pakistani navy and with which he some day hoped to do the unthinkable that of sinking INS Virat in its own home turf .
First head to roll was Navy chief Vice admiral Mansoor ahmed -he was summarily dismissed and then taken to destination unknown -possibly executed -we would never know.
The voice of pakistani president was very very cold when he turned to his air chief and precisely outlined his plan to avenge the death of Khalid . In his characteristic way it was tactically brilliant but like like Kargil strategically weak but then no one had the audacity to point that to the ruthless general .
Pakistan has taken the first escalatory step towards a full scale war which wil involve over the next six months loss of several hundred thousand lives ,will befought over three seas ,bring the world to the brink of third world war and a catastophic end to the nation state of pakistan..

SARGODHA AIR BASE -PAKISTAN
----------------------------------------
One by one the six F-16 falcons of pakistani air force took off from extra long runway of pakistans most well defended air base with perfect precision just as the morning sun was brightening upover the horizon on their way to their first way point Hyderabad from where they would refuel ,pick up thier complement of air to ground weapons and then onwards to their target JAMNAGAR in the indian state of Gujrat which apart from one of the largetst naval -air base also houses asias biggest green field crude oil refinery with an installed capacity of 27 million tons and in midst of being upgraded to 54 million tonnes per annum . It was a prize worth going for . They knew the cost may be very very high and none of them may return but being pakistans top combat pilots they did not alow such negatiive thinking enter their mind but concentrated on task in hand that of flying one of the worlds best strike aircraft as the semi arid tropical plains rolled under their nimble aircraft . The journey to Hyderabad was uneventful where they landed after about one hour and started arming and fuelling up for the mission at hand . The motivation level was high as is common amngst all good combat pilots and they knew they have been chosen as the pointsman for avenging the humilation and hurt of pakistani armed forces .

KSandy
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Postby KSandy » 07 Jul 2005 11:53

The pain and shame of losing their state or the art sub Khalid will be much higher considering that they lost it to an almost unarmed Dornier with rookies on board.

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Postby Shankar » 08 Jul 2005 11:58

0530(PST) hrs Hyderabad -Pakistan

The pakistani strike plan was brilliant in its simplicity . The direct distance between the southern city of hyderabad and indian town of Jamnagar is only 193 nautical miles from international border less than 150 nautical miles . The
estimated flight time from Talhar ,the outermost town in pakistan near IB to Jamnagar is less than 20 minutes . The max reaction time available to indian airforce to scramble its aircraft from Jamnagar or Bhuj was asumed to be 5 minutes add 3 minutes for communication delays and prepare the aircraft for operational sortie and the net result is IAF left with less than 7 minutes to get the interceptors into air , and throw the air defense screen .
on the way to Jamnagar the falcon flight would fly over Mirpur khas then onwards to Talhar -cross international boundary soon therafter and enter air identification zone of Bhuj and onwards to Jamnagar . The cruise altitude thru and thru shall be less than 300 ft hopefully to minimise ground based radar detection . 3 of the falcons were armed exclussively with 8 nos AIM 9X missiles each and assigned to provide top cover the other 3 falcons responsible for strike mission on Jamnagar airbase and more specifically the asias largest greenfield refinery . Their armament included standard 1000 kg laser guided bombs and one of them carried a single Durandal runway denial bomb in the central pylon.

The six Pakistani falcons took off in sequence from the runway with full afterburner and under strict emcon -ther was no communication to and from atc or between the flight team members of Viper team 1 thru 6 . Surprise and only surprise could ensure success and pilot knew it only too well. They were attempting a daylight strike on one of the most heavily defended airspace in the world with a well known multi tier air defense system in place -comprising of numerous interceptors ,surface to air missile network , automated radar controlled guns and not to forget ground observers with man portable short range sams. All of them knew the chances of them getting back in one piece was not existant and possibility of none of them making it back to pakistan was considerable . But they flew on with a dogged determination towards their collective destiny.

0515 hrs IST Bhuj air base

Squadron leader Dipak and Flyiong officer Nirmal singh sandhu took off in an easternly direction for an early morning training cum combat airpatrol sortie. Both of them were armed with single two R-60 short range air to air missiles and 150 rounds for their Gsh 30 gun . They were not expecting any confrontation but the Khalid incident was always in the background. As they climbed steeply upwards at more than 40000ft per minute the sky was just clearing up on the eastern horizon .Their patrol will take them over the sprwaling Reliance refinery to town of Bhuj then onwards to international border and then a quick return back to home base . estimated time on air 45 minutes and they would be still having about 5 minutes reserve left before going bingo.

0517 IST hrs Reliance refinery -Jamnagar
This was the time when the activity peaks up with night shift personel getting ready to go out ,the morning shift personnel punching in to start the days work . There was atleast 3500 workers and engineers assembling near the main gate together with an equal number of unregisterd contract labours lining up to for the expansion project nearing completion. The refinery was in full production mode and the stock crude and finished products in the adjoing tank farm was more than 3.5 million tons .Two more 75000 to tankers of japaneese registry were waiting in the jetty to unload their cargo of light arabian crude .

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 09 Jul 2005 12:50

0540 hrs PST/0610 IST - Runn of Kutch -International border
The six fighting falcons of pakistani airforce ,still with no radr emmission crossed into indian airspace in atight arrowhead formation with their altimeter reading 300 ft and indicated air speed of 540 knots . The falcons dropped down further to 150 ft and kicked in the afterburners pushing up the airspeed past 700 knots mark. For reasons of flight safety ,as per pre programmed flight plan horizantal seperation was increased to 500 ft and vertical seperation to 300 ft between adjoining aircrafts . There was no conversation and no alarm -after all the falcons were designed and concieved for just such a mission .

The lockheed martin F-16 fighting falcons are arguably the best low level strike aircraft in the world though marketed as a true multi role one. Next to Mig 21 s they are also perhaps the most prolific combat aircraft in the airforces of the world . More than 2000 is used by followed closely by israel,greece,egypt,new zealand ,uae,singapore,south korea,oman and strangely hungary. The pakistani airforce were using earlier supplied models recently upgraded to block 50 /52 level courtesey uncle sam -for their so called help in war against terror (which no one seriously believed ) the real reason being indian aquistion of su-30 s i large numbers followed by local manufactuer .

0600 hrs IST COBRA FLIGHT
--------------------------------
The two mig 21 bis flying at 15000 ft was almost at the end of their patrol and fuel level low. Squadron leader Dipak was looking forward to a heavy south indian breakfast the mess cook has promised as he turned back towards his home base and the earphone crakled ito life

- cobra flight -bandits at 3 0 clock - 200ft - engage immediately - you are weapons free on all targets -repeat you rae weapons free on all targets - good hunting .

The pakistani falcons unknon to their pilots were tracked all along ,right from the moment they took from hyderabad but as per established peacetime norms engagement orders could not be issued till actual violation of indian air space took place .

VIPER FLIGHT - somewhere over Runn of Kutch

Time for stealth was now almost gone and the viper lead switched on their radar in active mode ,followed closely by viper 2 and viper 3
and immeditely rewarded by the throaty growl of lpositive missile lock on their headphones . The highly capable AN/APG 68 radar was capable of 25 seperate air to air and air to ground mode including long range all aspect detection and tracking . The planner antena array situated just under the nose of the falcons and could detect targets well beyong 100 kms and the IAF Mig 21 s were closer than that .The position of the indian interceptors along with their distance and attack vector was immediately projected onto the head up dispaly and the attck computer set up 2 AIM 9X missile for launch from each aircraft . Active data link between viper 1 and viper 2 ensured they are not targeting the same aircaft . The lead viper punched in the afterburners followed closely by his wing man and bored into the sky following closely the dictates of the targeting cursor on the head up dispaly .

0600 hrs IAF forward air base somewhere in western sector

SCRAMBLE -SCRAMBLE -SCRAMBLE blared the public adress system in the hardened shelter lined with neat rows of fully armed, and already prefilghted Mig 29s pre positioned for just such a situation
Within 3 minutes six of them were in air after taking of with full afterburner recieving intercept data from ground controller . Six more followed within a span of 10 minutes . The first fligth group had the call sign mongoose 1 thru 6 and the second group leo 1 thru 6 ..

Flight group mongoose was vectored onto the air intrussion zone over Bhuj and the second flight group with call sign leo rushed in to take up combat air patrol position over Gir national park ( home to more than 300 asiatic lions along with scores of pythons and mugger crocodile ) .

All the IAF mig 29s were armed with a combination of R-73/R-27s with more R-73 s than R-27 simply because that is the most deadly interceptor -missile combination in the world and to a lesser extent the fulcrum pilots knew in a within visual range dog fight even the famed falcon is no match .

The pakistani gamble was about to be put to test . Also for the first time the falcons will be facing fulcrums piloted by true professiionals ,highly trained and possesing a deep sense of pride in their country and its global image . The results will be quite unlike Iraq or kosavo but then that was still few minutes away into future .

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Postby Singh » 09 Jul 2005 14:07

WWWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

iam on the edge of my seat...
please dont keep us waiting too long shankar
cant concentrate on my studies unless u finish this episode...

VikramS
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Postby VikramS » 09 Jul 2005 14:29

Shankar:

Your scenario has some contradictions:

1. You mentione "Peace-Time Norms". After the sinking of the ship-and-sub, there was no peace. It was high-alert time.

2. IAF would have scrambled long before the Falcons crossed the IB. You want to keep them far way from the IB. A 6 ship Viper flight taking off from a forward air-base is a significant threat.

3. Given the tensions and the strategic resources we have on the west coast, it is unlikely that the CAP would have been Bisons only. The air-defense screen would have been active.

4. It is very likely that a pair of MKIs would be on CAP 24x7 north of Mumbai ready to play an extended mini-AWACs role if needed.

amritk
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Postby amritk » 09 Jul 2005 19:01

Shankar wrote: home to more than 300 asiatic lions along with scores of pythons and mugger crocodile )


:twisted:

rahul_r
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Postby rahul_r » 09 Jul 2005 21:18

Shankar,

I am also looking forward to the conclusion of the sniper story. Please don't forget that one. I could sit here and read these scenarios all day!!

Dileep
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Postby Dileep » 09 Jul 2005 21:24

2. IAF would have scrambled long before the Falcons crossed the IB. You want to keep them far way from the IB. A 6 ship Viper flight taking off from a forward air-base is a significant threat


Look at the times. TFTA takes off at 5:30PST/6:00IST from Hide'r'bad, and the CAP order and scramble order happens at the same timestamp. In 10 minutes, vipers cross the line, turn on the light and see the bisons. That is perfect. But where are the Fulcrums scrambled 7 minutes ago? We don't know where exactly they are scrambled from, so can't really contest that.

And we don't know yet if we have rambhas in the air (yet!). Anyway a viper downed by a bison won't be as exciting as agosta downed by dornier, but I would take that any day instead of a fulcrum or rambha v/s viper.

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Postby Ashwin » 09 Jul 2005 22:40

I am also looking forward to the conclusion of the sniper story. Please don't forget that one. I could sit here and read these scenarios all day!!


do you mean my sniper story?? Somebody actually read that. Gee thats kinda encouraging, will finish it

amol
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Postby amol » 09 Jul 2005 23:15

Brilliant work by all you amateur writers at BR!! Keep the good stuff coming.

GD saab, one minor point...
...the airwaves soon crackled with certain communications at the highest
grade of 1024 bit AES encryption on Thales supplied communications gear...


AFAIK, max AES key size is 256 bits. Did you mean 1024 bit RSA encryption instead? I'd prefer the AES to RSA, though.

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 10 Jul 2005 13:28

0600 hrs IST -civil air terminal Jamnagar
------------------------------------------------
- Jet airways regrets to announce indefinite delay to their flght 9W 234 to Mimbai due air traffice restrictins . Apassengers are requested to collect their breakfast coupons from the check in counter . Thank you
A collective howl of anguish went up with some unprintable and some umntinable remarks about the what the airlines can do with their breakfast . Most of the passengers were businessman on their way to Mumbai for procuring 1000 s of engineering items required evryday by the massive expansion project and day to day running of the refinery . A total 117 passengers were stranded in the civilian terminal and the fully fuelled B-737 parked just outside .
Amonst the passengers was also a national geographic photography team who had been doing a feature on wild asses of Runn of Kutch and now returning home thru Mumbai . Ace photographer Tom white with his jounalistic instinct started quitely taking out his sony betamax digicam with ultra large tele capability which comes in handy for shooting wild life imay also come in useful when shooting an unexpected event like one unfolding now ..This decision would make him a millionaire in few days time when the epoch making air battle over Bhuj will be telecast worldwide by almost all the major roadcasting companies -but Tom white did not know that as yet..

0605 hrs VIPER FLIGHT

viper 1 and 2 climbed at their target with the full power of general electric F-110 GE -129 engine the fuel system duly inerted by argon gas generated during imaging infrared seeker head cooling with stored liquid argon .
The 16 aim 9x missiles carried by viper 1 and 2 were out of a very limited inventory of less than 50 supplied to pakistan by US under bi-lateral military aid programme . The other falcons were armed with more conventional aim 9L/9M type 4 each along with a plethora of laser guided bombs and a single Durandel runway denial bomb on viper 5 meant for main runway of Jamnagar .
The AIM 9X programme was initiated jointly by us navy,airforce and marine corps in response to significantly superior performance of russian air to air missiles like R-73 in WVR zone . The upgrade included new infrared seeker head cooled by liquid argon at -187 deg c to enhance sensitivity , thrust vector tail control actuation,along with improved auto pilot /signal processor to create a high off boresight capability . The warhead ,fuse and rocket motor is same as AIM 9M/9L type .
The 50 odd aim 9x supplied to pakistan was esentially meant to check how it performs under tropical flight condition in high dust environment . The earlier problems included slow launch which automatically put the missile in a safe mode and various guidance and auto pilot failure .The problems were reportedly corrected ,nessecery certificates issued and the missile supplied to pakistan as free aid after some circuit card connectors were repalced .

The lead viper launched his missiles -the wing man followed suite after a minute to give the lead missiles enough lee way or sky space to move around in pursuit of indian migs .

COBRA FLIGHT 0605 HRS

Compared to the pakistani falcons the two Mig 21Bisons were armed lightly only a pair of short range R-60 s in the wing pylons and the 30 mm Gasha gun set in air to air mode . Ofcourse under the skin extensive changes have been done which included stressed acrylic canopy , Sextants totem RLG-INS -100p gps embeded GPS recievers , infra red search and track system from URALS optical-mechanical plant and of course TARANG radar warning recievers only marginally different from those used in prized Su-30 Mki s

The shrill beep of missle launch broke the silence

But all these are useful when you have some time and some distance to play with The two F-16 s were closing in at more than 12 knots a minutes and were launching sidewinders of indeterminate variety . Something had to be done and done fast .
- cobra 2 -cobra 1 braek right braek right the cool voice of flight leader came over the inter plane frequency - deploy flares and dive
- roger cobra 1 the response from his wing man was instaneous as pushed the stick right and down at the same time punching out couple of flares in the wake . This quick reflexive action fo the young pilot saved his life . As ground rushed up at more than 10000 ft /min the first of the missiles earmarked for him flew into the floating hot spots in the sky mimicing very cleverly the more or less the exact thermal signature of the aircraft by now quite far away .Still the imaging infrared seeker head tried to differentiate the temperature gradient of almost stationary magnesium flares from that of a jet exhaust but the guidance software could not cope with the flood of data and gave the detoantion signal to warhead . The missile exploded harm lessly few kms down the way .
The second missile earmarked for cobra wing was not fooled that easy ,it followed cobra 2 all the way after executing a long supersonic turn high up .
Flying officer Nirmal had no option but to punch out last of his flres and dive into the low sand dunes that dot the landscape near Runn. The aim 9x followed relentless ly till the mig suddenly put its nose up and started a turning climb genearting more than 8 g on the airframe and the pilot. The sidewinder tried to follow but exploded as it crashed into a nearby sand dune .

Cobra lead was not that lucky . Squadron leader dipak in the best tradition of indian airforce have given the comparitively easy way out to his young student pilot for him was the difficult and inherently more difficult move to make. To make the mid air seperation from his wingman really effective he had to climb and climb away towards the sun in aclassic move used by combat pilots world over to fool a heat seeker . The two state of the art missiles were less than a few kms away - he pushed the throttle wide open punched in the afterburners and climbed towards the rising sun in an act of defiance than of hope . The trail of flares he left behind did create some wayward movement of the missiles but in the end the both missiles slammed into him at more than 3 times speed of sound . The mig disintegrated showering the countryside with flaming debris and pieces of human torso . It was not a prettysight but then a war never is .

Both the falcons were now high and vulnerable ,they needed time to locate and kill the elusive other mig 21 lost somewhere in the desert floor
as they looped down into the sandy waste -flying officer nirmal flicked the plastic cover over his missile launch switch and launched both the r-60 at a range of less than 2 kms one at each falcon . The automated chaff flare dispensers immediately activated and started punching out chaff bundles and flares one every 6 seconds. But at a closing speed of more than mach 2.7 the R-60 closed on the viper lead in less than 3 seconds and its active radar proximity fuse detonated the rather small 3.5 kg explossive warhead under the port wing of lead falcon. The nimble jet cartwheeled imediately and crashed in a large firball .

One gone one more to go -thought flying officer nirmal as he pulled his mig 21 into a tight turn at viper 2 which having escaped the second R-60
was trying to get in a missile firing postion behind him . Nirmal tightened his turn so that he could bring his Gasha to bear before the next salvo of missile is launched .He succedded with about 2 second to spare. But that was enough At a demonstarted firing rate of more than 2000 rounds per minute for a single barrel model it was one of the deadliest guns used in modern air combat. The first rwo exploding shells killed the pilot of viper imediately and the rest 100 or so stiched the falcon from cockpit to tail which exploded in a brilliant orangeball almost rivalling the rising sun on eastern horizon

VikramS
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Postby VikramS » 10 Jul 2005 14:25

Nice Stuff. Can not wait for the "Battle Over Bhuj".

Again a small nitpick.

The Viper's Missiles were heat seekers fire and forget type. The shooters could go into recovery mode to come into a better tactical position while the Bisons were evading the heat seekers. Though that could still lead them exposed to a ground hugging Bison, it is likely that the Vipers would have followed their missiles and tracked the evading Bisons. TSPAF is primarily trained in WVR and the natural instinct would be to get behind the bogey.

Carry on.

bagha
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Postby bagha » 11 Jul 2005 11:47

Shankar:
Just a few queries...
How were the F-16s being tracked without them knowing about it? In case of LPI radar tracking please elaborate it in the piece.
Doesnt the AIM 9X track thermal images rather than just heat, in which case it shouldnt have any problems differentiating between the silhouette of a Mig 21 from that of a flare? (I know this from a TV program about the AIM 9X. They even showed what the darn thing sees)

Ashwin:
Regarding the sniper story...
Due to the supersonic nature of a bullet, the impact happens before the sound reaches you. Therefore the victims would all be hit before they heard the crack of the rifle. Considering a distance of 600m, the victim would hear the crack of the rifle more than a full second after being hit.
Secondly, incorporating the role of the spotter, wind and elevation adjustment etc would make the story that much more "real".
Finally, wouldnt such a move by the PA, mean that the IA would announce open season on all PA personnel within range of anti material rifles? The moral of the troops must be preserved, for every sniper attack casualty, we will extract 10 casualties from the enemy, no matter how much they protest that it was "Kashmiri Freedom Fighters" who were responsible. Just thinking aloud from a PA perspective.

Rich
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Postby Rich » 11 Jul 2005 12:14

Shankar, first of all, I must say you are doing a very commendable job with all the action. However I must nitpick at the aerial combat.

1. The Pakis would not send their F-16's with just sidewinders, knowing full well they will be facing an adversary armed with BVR missiles such as the R-27's and R-77's. The TSPAF Vipers will have at least two AIM-7 Sparrows each, that is assuming they don't have AMRAAM's by then.
2. Similarly, if the Bison's were on a training mission armed with just R-60's alone, ordering them to engage an enemy potentially armed with sidewinders and sparrows would be suicidal. GCI would only do that if there were no other options to intercept the incoming strikers. Seeing as the F-16's were being tracked for some time, properly armed interceptors could have been immediately launched for a defensive CAP with orders to engage only if Indian airspace is violated. In turn, the Bison's returning from their training mission could be ordered to egress the area to fight another day.
3. The Bison's would have been pretty low on fuel towards the end of their training mission. Here again, it would not be prudent to order them to engage, especially for close combat, which requires a lot of afterburner. An air force would do that only if they were desperate, and at this stage, I don't think they were... yet.
4. I don't care how good the pilot is, no MiG 21 variant can out turn an F-16. It's wings force it to bleed off too much energy. Once it loses its ability to change direction, it becomes a sitting duck agaunst a Falcon. The Bison would have an excellent chance if deployed with the R-77 for BVR and the R-73 slaved to the HMS for close combat - the latter levels the playing field against the AIM-9X.
5. I think the MiG-29's ordered to scramble would have been armed with R-77's too, unless they are non-upgraded "A" variants. I don't think the IAF would deploy these (basic MiG-29A's) as a first line of defense.

Keep up the great work, I particularly like your naval combat! :)

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 11 Jul 2005 12:57

BHUJ AIR DEFENSE ZONE 0607 HRS
-----------------------------------------
Group captain Nilesh doshi in charge of air iintercept operations ,was very busy man also quite tense. Added to this his old ulcer brought over from his combat piloting days were not helping things eiether . A spinal injury forced him out of active flying duty when he had to eject out of fishbed after catastrophic engine failure .He swallowed couple of strawberry coloured anti acid tablets and concentrated on the job at hand .

The air space over bhuj was getting very very crowded by the minute with 17 high performance combat aircraft in the battle zone one of which was running low on fuel his job was resembling more of an air traffic controller than that of a air intercept mnager .

all surface to air missile luanchers along with zsu 23 4 shilkas were put on standby mode and under strict fir control .The chances of blue on blue was quite high .

- ground -cobra 2 - 2 falcon splashed -repeat 2 falcons splashed - out of ammo - bingo fuel-request vector tonearest airstrip -over
- cobra 2 ground - confirm your twin falcon kill- your are cleared to land at gandhidham air strip - your vectors are ---- you are cleared for direct visual aproach and landing - well done
- Mongoose 1 and 2 you are weapons free -cleared to engage bandits
- Mongoose 3 4 5 6 you are weapons free but do not engage till mongoose 1 an2 have broken off
- leo lead -you are weapons free -maintain present altitude and position- do not enter map grid charlie -alpha - mongoose flight engaging

The stream of confirmation from different flight groups strted pouring in immediately

VIPER 3 COCKPIT 0606 HRS IST
The air battle for pakistan was not going particularly well thought squadron leader iskander mirza as he glanced around the cockpit of his multimillion dollar aircraft . Such swift response from the cow worshipping indian pilots was not expected . He was assured by his air officer commanding back home in sargodha that IAF is mortally afraid of F-16 s and that is why they are so angry at the americans for re commencing the supply . He was also told all russian aircraft are pure bakwaz and tends to fall of the sky whenever the wind changes direction . But seeing the swift and sure destruction of his friends by the tiny mig 21 s right before his eyes changed his perception of indian airforce very quickly .

As he looked around the compact cockpit quickly he once again felt secure and comfortable .The ejection seats fixed 20 deg recline angle wasgreat for all flight phases except during combat manuvering. the single piece bubble canopy gave him great all round visibilty. Ofcourse he was having a sore neck while continiously trying to look at his six or over shoulder. In fact 90% of all falcon pilots suffer from some form of neck or back injuries .Though his falcon was technically a fly by wire or electric jet but still had old fashioned round air speed and altitude dials and tape guages for vertical speed indicator and angle of attack indiaction. These happen to be also the primary flight instrument since the head up dispaly in front was not certified for innstrument flight by us suppliers.

As he checked on the the monochrome display showing all the information from radar and forward ooking infrared pod his left thumb moved lightly over the throttle designator control to slew the cross hairs over his selected target detected on the radar scope or hud like a mouse of the weapons system. The cross hairs settled on the lead mig 29 peeling of from formation into an attack run .He could see the deadly blunt nosed R-73 s and the comapritively sleeker and pointed active radar R-27 R1 under the wings .

Squadron leader Iskander did not hesitate ,flicked open the protection cap and fired 2 two aim 9x sidewinders at the oncoming fulcrum .

This was expected - in the heat of battle the pakistani pilot reacted in haste and did not wait to reach best firing position for his advanced infra homming missiles . The mig 29 was almost 10 kms from the falcon and had ample time to punch out requisite numbe rof flares and then some more and then dive out of the thermal sight of the incomming missiles .Iskander mirza realised his mistake and desperately tried to aim his nimble aircraft at the fast fading Mig 29 but he did not have the luxery of helmet mounted cueing nor did he have the slow speed turn capability of fulcrum but he tried
Mongoose 2 was waiting for the falcon to tak the bait -which it did with alarming rapidity - squadron leader ahuja piloting mongoose 2 quickly pushed the throttle full forward and into afterburner mode as steered the superbly agile aerodynamic platform into a perfect heat seeking missle firing postion at an angle of 15 degree off the tail pipe of falcon at a distance of less than 5 kms . At that distance it is difficult for a R-73 to miss a sparrow let alone a falcon. The missile leaped off the rail launcher on starboard wing and bore relentlessly towards the target . After 5 seconds delay Ahuja fired off the second missile this time from the port wing pylon effectively bracketing and sealing the fate of the pakistani falcon. R-73 no 2 hit first as the F-16 tried to jinx out of harms way after automatically deploying flares and blew of the hot tail pipe ,R-73
no 2 went thru the flre curtain and exploded spraying the stricken jet jet with hot sharpnels from a distance . Iskander Mirza pulled on the ejection handle and everything went blank

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Postby Shankar » 13 Jul 2005 15:19

0615 HRS IST - JAMNAGAR AIR DEFENSE ZONE

PAF was running out of luck and indians -time . As the eye of air combat zone slowly but steadily shifted toward the massive refinery complex at Jamnagar and pakistani pilots despite overwhelming odds stacked up against them were still making steady progress towards likely target -Nilesh had to take some hard decisions and he took it in style . May be he should have taken this decision earlier but then in retrospect all high speed battle decisions can be put up in similar light .

- mongoose flight break off -repeat break off immediately and exit grid charlie-alpha now
- leo flight you are free to engage - r-27 only - altitude below 10000 ft is restricted to all aircraft repeat do not go below 10000 ft
At the same time he freed the ZSU-23-4 units to fire at any target beolw 7500 ft keeping an acceptable 2500 ft vertiacl seperation for any errant mig 29 which might intrude into low altitude point defense zone . SA-6 units were still in stand by mode and not weapons free .

The six mig 29 pilots of mongoose flight were very very dissapointed -they were looking forward to avenging the death of their comrade in arms but in indian airforce the orders of air intercept officer carries supreme authority any violation have to be later justified by filling out 2001 forms and hour long debriefs and any combat pilot found to responsible for an avoidable violation is grounded and can look forward to a life of looking after the motor transport battelion for the rest of his carreer . The tuned in unison and eggressed the combat zone as one .

The viper flight was somewhat relieved to have the relentless attck pressure taken off but in their radar scope could also see the six bright spot representing Leo flight group closing up quickly to take up a head on missile launch position ,which could mean only one thing - a BVR engagement is in the making .
Viper 4 took on the lead role
- viper 4 break right and hit deck target oil tank farm -refinery
- viper 5 break left and to deck target atmospheric distilation column
refinery
execute zig zag at minimum height till weapons launch
donot enter airbase area
Wing commander javed akhtar finished his cryptic exchange and put his F-16 on a maximum rate of climb.

The leo flight also broke up into a wide area dart formation each leo one thru 3 launched 2 semi active homing R-27 R1 missiles at the incomming bandits fast trying to sink into dart leaving a sea of ultra thin aluminium foils or chaff cloud in its wakE. but the flat salt pans of Gujrat offered no cover to the intruding falcons from the just launched R-27 s

The ressults were mixed

- viper 5 was a bit late in responding to acting flight leads instructions ,by the time he has pushed the stick down and punched out the afterburner the sharp nosed r-27 s have already aquired their target . At a closing speed of more Than 3000 kms per hour and a distance of less than 25 kms to cover the time gap was not exactly appreciable. Viper 5 dissappeared in a blindling fire ball over the arid plains of jamnagar .The possibility of ejection did not ever exist.
- viper 6 with incredible luck and out of the world.
flying skill managed to evade the R-27 salvo launched at him and crossed over the gulf of kucth ch and crossed into jamnagar air space perimeter on hiis way to the large atmospheric ditilation column of the refinery .at an altitude of just under 5000 ft .

He should not have done that
All the 4 barreled shilka put on max alerl and weapons free status just a few minutes back opened up in unison spewing out shells at a rate 6000 rounds per minute from each gun position. The sky was lit up like an untimely deepavali -throwing up a unpenetrable curtain of steel
The falcon had absolutely no chance against the onslaught . All her multi billion dollar ECM pods and fuly automated chaff flre dispensers were as use less as apiece of toilet paper trying to stop the charge of a bull rhino. The worlds one of the most advanced strike aircraft was shredded into pieces all over the airbase -some how the pilot managed to eject and could be seen walking away slowly towrads the runway in a world wide tv clippings shot by the national geograhic photographer along with the earler battle sequence.

0623 hrs IST - VIPER 4
Wing commander Javed was trained in the delivery of free fall nuclear bombs as he saw his friends taken out deliberately one by one by the arrogant indian pilots he knew his earlier apprehension about feasibilty of this kind of adventurism was correct . He was carrying 2 x1000 kgs laser guided bombs and that he planned to use in a very innoavtive way .

Javed knew convention launch of a smart bomb would require him to stay in position for atleast 15 seconds which would amount to sure suicide under present circumstances. So he decided to do a lob toss drop from an altitude of 20000 ft at 750 knots - in simple words the bomb would seperate at an angle of as near 45 degree as possible which will then follow a parabolic trajectory to the target in this case the oil tank farm of the giant refinery holding several million tons of crude and finished petroleum products . the effect of such a strike would criple the indian economy and most likely wipe the prosperous town of jamnagar off the face of earth .

18000ft and climbing -air speed has dropped to under 700 knots even with ful after burner -the radar warning reciever blipped shrilly and the voice of nagging nancy ( the computer generated aural warning ) kept on repeating missile launch -missile launch -missile launch incessantly .Javed lost count of how many missiles have been launched
19000 ft and climbing air speed down to 670 knots -wing commander javed could wait no longer and toggled the release switch . He was 1000 ft short of altitude and 80 knots short on air speed for a correct lob toss delivery to oil tanks . In case of of a 20 kt enriched uranium fission weapon the diffrence would not have mattered but here it did . As the parabola flattened out prematurely the first bom sailed thru air and dropped on the civil air terminal of jamnagar airport ,teh second one hit the runway intersection somewhere down the line .

The jet air ways exploded along with the attending fuel browser .
90 % of the delayed flight passengers were killed on spot amonst them 25 were tourists including 12 american citizens .
The 5 mtr deep crater on main runway intersection closed the air base for more than 5 days even then only the auxilary runway could be used .It took almost 3 weeks to restore full operational status.

Wing commander Javed -ofcourse never came to know all this -he was long dead much befor his beloved falcon hit the ground in flaming mass of entangled metal . The IAF pilot up on the sky raised a slute in honour of their kin both indian and pakistani ,before returning to their bases and in some cases alternate bases .

0700 hrs Ahmedabad airport .
---------------------------------
Passengers crossing the tarmac to catch the indian airlines early morning flight to Delhi looked in awe at the 2 fuly armed twin tailed aircraft carrying about a dozen or more weapons under their wings landed on the main runway and taxied off to a parking area some distance away. The pilots who came out of the air craft looke d very tired and sported a red rhino against a black background patch . Whether they were a part of the just finished air combat over gujrat will never be known . like all things involving sensitive air opeartions it will stay forever classified.

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Postby Sharma » 13 Jul 2005 16:06

..so finaly a good battle came to end. That was very good....I liked it.....
Picking Bhuj is very good.Pakistanis always tries to attack this particular area in every war.

If some of you have read Ravi Rekhie's "The Fourt Round" then there was also a scenario in which a paki transport plane wearing attire of Thai Airways raise a hoax hijak call over Bhuj. Indian authorties allowed them to land at Bhuj airbase. That transport aircraft was full of Paki SSG, APC's and other support element. Soon they took control of Bhuj airbase which further allowed Pakis to strengthen their hold on and near Bhuj. It took 4 Indian Infantry Divs to get that free ( or perhaps there was a stalemate). That is kind of heart break but this scenario always exists with strong possibility of success to TSP.

Indian attack on Sargodha by APC's and commandos to destroy Paki nuclear facility out there was also good in that book.

Anyway very good work by Shankar.......now we are waiting for a ground battle :twisted: :twisted:

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Postby Ashwin » 13 Jul 2005 17:55

Ashwin:
Regarding the sniper story...
Due to the supersonic nature of a bullet, the impact happens before the sound reaches you. Therefore the victims would all be hit before they heard the crack of the rifle. Considering a distance of 600m, the victim would hear the crack of the rifle more than a full second after being hit.
Secondly, incorporating the role of the spotter, wind and elevation adjustment etc would make the story that much more "real".
Finally, wouldnt such a move by the PA, mean that the IA would announce open season on all PA personnel within range of anti material rifles? The moral of the troops must be preserved, for every sniper attack casualty, we will extract 10 casualties from the enemy, no matter how much they protest that it was "Kashmiri Freedom Fighters" who were responsible. Just thinking aloud from a PA perspective.


Yes, even I thought of that, but, as I mentioned in my post this is an adaptation og gerald seymours book "holding the zero" . It is abt a similar sniper situation, kurds vs iraqis, two very experienced snipers(one english(on the kurdish side)and another iraqi) fight a series of intense and personal battles , the crack-thump theory that I was talking abt was frequently used there to estimate firing range. You do have a valid point, so may be it was the 'thump' that was heard before the crack? Unrealistic ?

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Postby Vishal VT » 13 Jul 2005 18:05

Wooooo.

Great job shankar. This thread has sure come alive after hibernating for a long time.

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Postby Pennathur » 14 Jul 2005 10:13

From The Nationalist
published from Chennai since 1875
Chennai, Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Kochi, New Delhi, Kolkata


Gautam Srinivasachar in Dhaka.

In what will be surely seen by generations to come as an act of utter irresponsibility and militaristic aggression, India has forfeited the right to be recognised as a responsible economic power and lost the trust and goodwill of its weaker neighbour to the East. The shock and outrage at the latest intrusion by Indian irregulars and secret services into the sovereign territory of another freindly nation is palpable all round. Speaking in confidence to members of the Bangladesh administration and the military and a few officers of conscience in the Indian armed forces, The Nationalist has managed to put together an exclusive account of the perifidy perpetrated by a reckless and adventurist administration in an attempt to outdo the saffron fringe and curry favour with a non-existent "Hindu" vote bank.

Ever since the senseless policy of nuclear proliferation adopted by a hawkish right wing alliance a decade ago, the subcontinent has become a more dangerous place. In an attempt to go one up on the earlier dispensation, the current ruling alliance has put into operation a number of dangerous schemes of subversion in the neighbourhood that have finally come back to bite the host. Heeding myopic counsel of the "strategic community" the Indian Cabinet, particularly the Defence and Home ministries have over the last three years been hosting a rag tag bunch of irregulars from Bangladesh and Pakistan that are bent on producing unrest within the armed forces of both countries to bring about a coup to install a more "friendly regime". According to Brig.Ahmed Kamal of the Bangladesh Army's public affairs department, about six months ago a covert BSF party that was collecting intelligence inside Bangladesh was ambushed near the Tripura border. Brig.Kamal claims that one of the BSF personnel confessed that a secret operation to infiltrate irregulars and organise a march on Dhaka has been planned in the highest levels of the Indian Administration. The Bangladesh Army is a highly professional force and is stretched to maintain defences within the country being the biggest contributor to UN peacekeeping missions the world over. "We have hardly any time for politicking as we are busy implementing UN mandates in an arc stretching from Bosnia/Kosovo through Sudan to Aceh," says Brig.Kamal, "Unlike India we cannot afford to hold huge reserves of military and para-military personnel." On August 25th after five months of dogged investigations, the Bangladesh DGFI finally broke through a plot of epic proportions. Not sure of the ramifications of this plot, Bangladesh invoked the provisions of its treaties with Pakistan and requested the help of the latter countries military advisors. Brig.Kamal claims that over the last five months ever since India recalled its High Commissioner from Dhaka, relations have been frosty and all attempts to set up a meeting between the foreign secretaries of the two nations have been rebuffed.
Despite the uncovering of the plot, the Bangladesh foreign ministry is reported to have made attempts to talk to India through backdoor channels in other missions in New Delhi as well as through its Ambassador in the UK - Syed Hossein- brother-in-law of Union Secretary of Banking Ajoy Ghose (who is married to Hossein's sister). "The attack on the Bangladesh National Assembly on August 30th caught us by surprise. We managed to move out Madam to a safe location only by luck." "Gen.Jaffar has been trying to reorganise the administration and is in the process of weeding out disgruntled elements of the armed forces that pose a threat to not only Bangladesh but the entire region," says Brig. Kamal.
The recent attempt to storm the Bangladesh Army's safe house near Jessore is reliably learnt to have been pieced together by the Cabinet Secretariat without consulting the other members of the ruling alliance. The recent visit of Mr.Pradeep Kariat to China appears to have offered the opportunity to the war hawks in the Cabinet to hatch this extremely provocative action plan. In what has by now become a routine practice the Cabinet met in total secrecy without taking the Parmiament into confidence and using the newly created Special Forces Command issued a direct order to the Lt.General in charge.

On September 2nd two companies of special forces troops were sent into the Jessore area and asked to create a diversion by burning a couple of villages. Unfortunately the area is in the midst of a marsh, and no sooner did the fire start than the angry villagers surrounded the company and charged at them with daos. In what is now looking increasingly like the Pyrdiwah incident in 2001, the Indian Armed Forces personnel have had to pay the ultimate price for the foolish actions of a hawkish political establishment. Despite the outrage committed by the Special forces personnel and the setting off of air defence batteries at the border stations, the Bangladesh Army has made it a point to provide a decent cremeation for the dead Indian Army personnel. Reports of torture and mutilation of Indian personnel's corpses have been bandieid about in the Indian press but these must taken with a oinch of salt like that other canard of the presence of Pakistan military aircraft in Bangladesh. "When India exercises with the US Air Force, French Armee Del'Air, and the Israeli Air Force; Bangladesh too should be permitted to maintain its links with friendly forces in the region. The Indian Air Force has a standing invitation to join our annual exercise ever since the two forces met at Elmendorf in Alaska in 2004," adds Brig.Kamal.
Too much should not be read into the recent television address by Madam... Dhaka is back to normal and the citizens of this friendly city are welcoming as ever. Bangladesh has successfully managed to neutralise the threat of separatist violence within its borders by a careful program of development in the Chittagong Hill Tracts. India has much to learn from the Bangladesh model of local development. But then the current dispensation in New Delhi does not seem to be interested in such peaceful initiatives, bent as it is on a flawed and grandiose vision to emerge as a "global power".
...........................................................................................................
The Indian Recorder on Sunday
New Delhi September 17.

Peace Cruise planned by South Asian Peace Society


Conveners of the SAPA Dinendra Mishra and Kosi Mankad have announced plans for a peace march from Mumbai to Karachi in October. The SAPA will be linking with peace activists from Pakistan hal way up to Karachi by boat. The SAPA peace cruise will be an entirely people supported activity. Three fast motor boats from Mumbai will set sail for Karachi on December 4th and will be met by a group of SAPA activists from Karachi setting sail for a mid point near Cambay on the same day. "In 1971 the Indian Navy in an act of aggression set sail to bomb Karachi harbour following the interception of a hostile IN ship in Pakistan waters. We intend to make amends for this day of aggression and foreswear violence in mutual relations. We are one people and we intend to prove it," says Mankad of the SAPA Mumbai chapter. Dinendra Mishra a graduate of IIT-Chennai and the Univ.of Michigan who runs the widely acclaimed Uday childrens' education organisation is a great admirer of Gandhi and Kalpana Chawla. "We are not born Indian or Pakistani. We are born human and then are co-opted into the rubric of the nation state and it is by giving up our forced identities as citizens that we begin to experience true swaraj. Like Kalpana Chawla I believe I am citizen if at all of the Milky Way only. I find all otehr labels misleading." A special flag will be flown by the three boats carrying SAPA members from Mumbai. It is a composite of the Indian and Pakistani flags but with the complimentary colours. Indian and international maritime regulations do not permit a vessel in international waters to fly anything other than the flag of the (merchant) navy of its country of registration. SAPA is believed to be working with Mr.S. P. Muthu of the Ministry of Shipping and Transport for a special dispensation. "We are hopeful," adds Mishra cheerfully, "if not we are going to hang this pennant of peace prominently. For me the Indian flag is simply a pennant of convenience."

The Daily Reporter

Pakistan's biggest internet newspaper


India - No time for denial

Pankaj Bhosle
The author is one of India's most respected journalists. Educated at the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology, he has covered politics, economics and strategic issues including non proliferation for over 25 years. He is the recepient of the Liam O'Breen Prize for reporting on disarmament and armed conflict in 2000.

The last six months have seen a dangerous escalation of tensions in the subcontinent and have brought India and Pakistan the closest to an armed conflict since the hawkish over reaction of Kargil in 1999 and the months following the attack by armed gunmen on India's Parliament in December 2001. A rightwing fundamentalist administration egged on by dreams of global power misread the mod of the public and was voted out of power barely three years later. The people's democratic aspirations that brought the current alliance to power have since been belied. Even after the retirement of a one time technician turned self-styled "nuclear scientist" from the highest office of the land, India's egoistic bureaucrats and politicians harbour ambitions of global influence built on military prowess.
Unfortunately reality has a habit of turning dreams into dust and what is fitting for the farce we are witnessing in New Delhi, it is only apt that India's establishment read Harald Robert's "Dreams Dye Fist".
The Indian military establishment driven by a brahminical desire to dominate the discourse has sponsored a long and wasteful attempt to build a military industrial complex. While several of its "strategic visions" have long been exposed for the mirages they are, it is in the quest to build a "military industrial complex" that esteem hungy India's middle-classes and its technicians wannabe scientists have failed the country.
The long and wasteful programmess to develop LCA, and tanks and guns are too well known to repeat here. With the exit of a hawkish first citizen one expected that these high tech wishes would be finally put to rest. Sadly there is no end in sight.
Key weapon systems that the armed forces establishment has long resisted induction (for why use cheap knockoffs when the real thing can be imported for kickbacks?) have finally been introduced and found wanting. The much vaunted Su-30 MK has been a failure. The system "developed" at the cost of thousands of crores has seen limited action and has produced rather disappointing results. It is reliably learnt that the Su-30's electronics have been compromised due to poor design of its encryotion module owing to which the aircraft are not in any position to undertake offensive action in enemy territory. The claimed destruction of PAF F-16s in Bangladesh last month is believed to be a fluke because of the accidental destruiction of an undeground fuel dump at Tejgaon outside Dhaka by Indian agent provacateurs. The recent action over Bhuj where the IAF claims to have shot down six PAF F-16s for the loss of a single MiG-21 is also suspect. The question indeed arises what have the famed Phalcons been doing if they could not detect an intrusion into Indian airspace? And the claim of a MiG-21 shooting down two F-16s is too fanciful to bear examination. That these unsafe aircraft that have killed 100s of young men of the IAF could have out-turned and out run a Block 52 F-16 is simply outrageous. According to the National Geographic reporter who filmend the action over Bhuj, he did not see any IAF aircrafty till the PAF aircraft were shot down by ground fire. And in any case if MiG-21s can do the job what do we need Su-30s for?
The Indian Navy has of all three forces been the most ambitious. After the retirement of professionals such as Adm.Raghunath and the dismissal of an upright Adm.Narayan Bharat by a one-time socialist turned communalist minister, the Indian Navy has embarked on a series of costly misadventures. The refit programmes for the Kilo have seen little activity with only one submarine in operaation after repair - this while the Pakistan Navy has grown by leaps and bounds. Substantial gaps in ASW capability largely due to poorly designed indegenous systems lead to the loss of the INS Brahmaputra when it collided into an old undersea wreck in the Andamans. If not for the unlucky fire that destroyed the PNS Khalid, the Indian Navy would by now be in an unenviable position in the Bay of Begal. As for the Army less said the better. The wrangle over personal weapons systems has been overshadowed by a harebrained schemes to copy the solidier of the future concept. With a poor technical base (where most engineers end up being code clerks in transnational seat shops) India is ignoring the basics in pursuit of an unattainable dream.
Reconcialiation with Pakistan and Bangladesh is the need of the hour. The North East is in flames owing to the unfair and unjust treatment of the rich tapestry of nationalities. Excepting for a few communities such as the Bodos, Nagas, and Mizos into India's authoritarian forces (the uniformed security and defence forces) for the illusory fight against terrorism, the people at large have rejected this dishonest attempt to be co-opted into an identity threatening nationalistic project. India must pay attention to itrs pressing problems before it decides to offer counsel to others.

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Postby Pennathur » 14 Jul 2005 10:23

Shankar,
S/L Iskander Mirza doesn't seem to be a cold professional. Launching an AIM-9 in haste doesn't look like the work of a PAF CCS grad.

12 MiG-29s, 2 MiG-21s vectored together? Incredible!

Given the current state of the media this is what we can expect to read. Imagine what this sort of reportage can do to people's imopressions?

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Postby Shankar » 14 Jul 2005 11:48

pennathur
i will try to respond to your question to the best of my ability
- IAF does not believe in fair play in dealing with those who dare challenge the sanctity of indian airspace so 12 mig 29 s were scrambled just to ensure nothing gets thru the screen under any circumstances . That was the mission dictate and this is one way it was achieved .
- same with khalid the message is clear - acciedent or no acciedent - indian navy or coast guard is not their to organise rescue missions for hostile subs who have already sunk a frigate . The moment any nation does it -we shall respond with all we got does not matter which flag you flying
- imagine what can happen if a single 1000 kg bomb hits the sprawling million tank tank farm at reliance refinery in jamnagar .The city of jamnagar may just cease to exist .The casuality will be in thousands and the delicate eco system of runn will be destryed for ever. Any success will only encourage further such acts and the situation can go quickly go out of control even for very ratinal and very retrained indian leadership.
- each type of aircraft has a designated role to play in a typical battle scenario. su-30 s have theirs too and in a particular type of critical situation they may take up an air defense role but the primary air defense responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of mig 29s /mig 21 particularlly in the sector mentioned . Su-30 s cannot respond to each and every air incursion that may take place anywhere along the loc/ib
- in the time frame of this battle only 1 at the max 2 phalcons are available .Which means one was invariably on patrol over national capital region and other eiether under maintainance or some where in the eastern secor ..So nothing was available for south western air command . For the kind of coverage you are talking about we shall have to procure atleast 6 phalcons 3 for each threat axis in east and west two operating and one one ground.
- what if the falcons were carrying a small fission bomb 10-20 kt do you still think indian response was not proportante.
- for the su 30 to act as mini awacs certain amount of data exchange protocol need to be set up with the interceptors in air as ewll as ground intercept controller and the air defense installations . iIn any situation this takes time and when the intrussion window was less than 20 minutes it was to risky to try out.
- during kargil each and every aircraft from jammu to srinaagar was escorted by mig 29s minimum 2 . So iaf can deploy such kind of assets just to escort civilian flight schedule dont you think they will launch 12 mig 29s when one of their main base is under attack by a six ship falcon formation
Finally the question whether a mig 21 bison can take down 2 falcons in a dissimilar engagement -i think it can if the situation is favourable and the pilot motivated enough to disregard his personal safety .It was in fact a 2 on two engagement the first mig 21 was shot out and the falcons needed time to recover and launch more missiles at the second mig 21 . At a very close range r-60 is as deadly as aim 9x so is the gasha 30 . As far as the capability of the mig 21 to out turn the falcon well it depends again on the number of extrnal laod the falcon was carrying compared to mig 21 ,the relative position of one with respect to each other etc. Shall have to talk to some of my friends and clarify this issue once and for all

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Postby Swaroop » 14 Jul 2005 12:16

Pennathur, your news reports were awesome! :D :lol:
They were surreal enough to be close to reality :D

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Postby Kartik » 15 Jul 2005 02:25

But why would the Paki establishment attempt something as dangerous as a low-level strike by half a squadron of F-16s, when they could attack the Jamnagar oil refinery with a lot more ballistic missiles fired simultaneously at the same coordinates ? if the stakes were high enough, I doubt that the panicky Pakis would be able to restrain themselves from using their ballistic missiles..is anyone going to explore that scenario ?

Another question to you Shankar..if the US would supply AIM-9X missiles to the Pakis, why not AMRAAMs ? and why would they attempt a dash at the target when using diversionary tactics would make it easier ? for instance, a flight of F-16s or ROSE Mirages simultaneously attacking the Refineries at Baroda and then peeling off a few attackers along with dedicated attackers towards Jamnagar ?

and Flying Officer Nirmal Singh Sandhu was modelled after Nirmaljeet Singh Sekhon, was'nt he ? :)

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Postby Pennathur » 15 Jul 2005 04:55

Kartik,

Firing missiles at Indian economic assets would be an extremely hostile action even more than attacking them with an air-strike. One way to look at this is to imagine a slowly stirring Indian administration that the TSP may take for granted based on experience. An outright act of war requires great diplomatic power that now TSP does not possess. It can only do so much by way of conventional war. India too is not in a position to take the war to the enemy partly for diplomatic reasons but more so for economic reasons. How do you think the services sector in India would react in case of an all out war? Withdrawal of investments and people, decline of business confidence and disruption of economic activity would be great. The evolving scenario has factored in economic sabotage already. Given what is happening, India's interests are to keep hostilities down and erode the enemy's warfighting capabilities seriously without escalation. And the way to do it is to force the other to go on the offensive through stealthy means - a clearly impossible task on land (remember Kargil?) and air. The sea is another matter. In terms of pitched battles the RN, the Japanese SDFN and to a much lesser extent the IN are capable of mounting a high level offensive. The IN however is not yet ready for sea dominance on its Western and Eastern wings and hardly at all in the South.
It is in TSP's interest to restrain India from retaliating without regard to consequences. It is to India's advantage too to keep TSP making such weak offensives - a repeat of the failed 1965 and 1971 attempts at air dominance. The TSPAF is even less capable of such action than it was 30-40 years ago. TSP thinking begins with poor strategy and some audacious tactical plans and degenerates quickly into a strategy-less farce. This has happened in the past and is what seems to be happening in this scenario. There is no reason to believe - realistic as it seems - that this is what will happen in the future.

Let's see TSPAF has lost 4+12(?) frames in BDland and now 6 over Bhuj - 20 airframes. V. v. v. serious loss over six months with nothing to show for. Seems to be the Battle of Britain all over again. And then there is the TSPNS Khalid gone. TSP will go covert with a vengeance (the scenario is already unfolding for that suggesting a much bolder and smarter plan than ever before). Right now for TSP the fight is in deep stalemate Time to see how India will react internally.

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Postby rakall » 15 Jul 2005 09:56

Kartik wrote:But why would the Paki establishment attempt something as dangerous as a low-level strike by half a squadron of F-16s, when they could attack the Jamnagar oil refinery with a lot more ballistic missiles fired simultaneously at the same coordinates ? if the stakes were high enough, I doubt that the panicky Pakis would be able to restrain themselves from using their ballistic missiles..is anyone going to explore that scenario ?

:)




Hasnt the use of ballistic missiles become a little risky these days?
I think any such launch of ballistic missiles will lower the nuclear threshold!!

Pak launches ballistic missiles.. India thinks they are nuclear armed.. and launches a coupla nuke-armed Agni's. DONE.

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Postby Shankar » 15 Jul 2005 11:51

THE DAY AFTER -15/72007
-----------------
The soft spoken indian prime minister saluetd the national flag and opened the day long independence day celebration on the ramparts of Red fort. His short speech to the nation was as usal on ideals on which the nation state of india was built, the sacrifice of specific individuals ,rosy look on the economic front , reduction of force level in kashmir ,peace understanding in north east . Only at the end he did mention the bravery of indian armed force (no specific mention of airforce or the combat pilots involved ) in maintaining the sanctity of indian borders.
The world was surprised
Most surprised was US president who had already put his think tank into action on how to contain possible indian military adventurism on their war on terror ally . Of course his support for ex SEATO ally was not so steadfast after multiple blast in london meter inthe july of 2005 . The strongly worded message which was being drafted out under the eagle eyes of secratary of state M/s Eliza wheat -was put on hold
The russian president was not . Being a true strtegic ally russian leadership is almost always aware of indian military moves and planning what with hundreds oftheir engineers posted in various indian premier naval and air bases -the volume and nature of indents for spares and expendable military stores ( read missile/torpedoes etc)
The British premier was also not very surprised . He was an astute politician well tuned tothe new geo strtegic realities of present world . He was to give his final consent to admirality on sale of reconditioned HMS Invincible to indian navy that afternoon . The indians have struck a hard bargain and their help in tracking down london bomb blast teros ,as per his thinking cannot go unrewarded. After refurbishing and addition of some indian and israeli electronics -it was expected to join in a years time . The total inflow to british treasury one billion pound sterling .This price included the full complement of sea harriers with equal number of spare engines , all existing sam and close in weapon systems .
For the first time in history China was totally baffled at indias total lack of reaction in face of such grave provocation.
The French were not much bothered . The first scorpene was about to be delivered and if all goes well ( read more naval confrontation) an order for second lot would be inevitable.

INS Vikramaditya was commissioned into indian navy with much fanfare . It was escorted into Karwar naval base by all the three delhi class destroyers flanking it on all three sides and a full squadron of sea harriers and recently inducted mig 29 ks honoured the new member of indian naval family with an impressive fly past .

At about the sametime the first of the giant AN-225 landed in lohegaon airbase in pune amidst ultra tight security .It caried in its hold the two semi assmbled Mig 29 mki . The AN 225 took off within 3 hrs . The process would be repeated evry alternate days for the next month and by end of september almost 3 squadrons of new mig variant will fly the indian skies
Pushed by indian airforce procurement group -the last of the 3 IL 76 equipped with L band phased array conformal radar system landed in Dabolim (for security reasons) and took of after 6 hrs south wards accompanied by an IL 78 . Phalcon 3 like its predecessors will never have a single home base and will never spend more than one night in a particular IAF /IN base . Official home base will be Karwar but that is only when major maintainance will be required.
The world watched and wondered .

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Postby Manne » 15 Jul 2005 18:02

Shankar wrote:THE DAY AFTER -15/72007


You mean 15/8/2007

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Postby Shalav » 15 Jul 2005 21:32

Shankar,

small nitpicks.

It would read better if

Most surprised was US president who had already put his think tank into action on how to contain possible indian military adventurism on their war on terror ally .


was replaced by

Most surprised was US president who had already put his think tank into action on how to contain possible indian military retaliation on their war on terror ally .


The indians have struck a hard bargain and their help in tracking down london bomb blast teros


From the Brit PoV they use terr(s) for terrorists.

Carry on - very enjoyable.

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Postby Dileep » 15 Jul 2005 23:13

22:00PST October 23, 2008 Rawalpindi

Jalal-ur-Rahman Junaid Rauf had a very busy day, yet he had several hours of work left. The internet connection in Pakistan was terrible, averaging only around 5 kbps. Considering the size of the images and music he is uploading, that would take many hours. And think about the PCs! He was forced to use an old generation Pentium4-800MHz. He was advised that his present stature could only afford that. And think about the secrecy patches made on top of Windows! These old bums takes eons to encode a simple image. He cursed himself in a language not native to the place, and continued staring at the screen, as if it will make it run faster, and the phone rang.

It was Ijaz Ahmed. The poor man was calling the boss to remind about the sugar shortage. Pakistan is still under the clutches of the sugar shortage, and the recent skirmishes with India has cut of the supply paths. Rauf's business has suffered a lot. Not that his livelihood is threatened, but he need to continue deliver the product to keep his inputs flowing. Besan and oil are also expensive, but that didn't matter. That business is not for profit anyway. Rauf consoled Ijaz, promising fresh supplies tomorrow, and went back to his work.

A hidden camera image of VGA resolution can be embedded into a photo of four times its size. A video clip will take a music clip of around twice the length. Though it is deemed safe, Rauf was sure that a trained eye or ear can asily detect the lack of quality, but he took it as part of the risks. For three years it was working great. His website looks inconspicuous enough, like that of a highly narciscist person. It mostly had photos of his own, his house, various sceneries of nature around Pindi, and of curse a collection of mp3 music. Not many hits to that either, but if someone did care to look, there ARE some fans all around the globe for this guy too.

The information he got today was chilling, and it must be uploaded ASAP. He want his colleague in London to get it when he visits the web site in a couple of hours time. He had already uploaded the encrypted text embedded in a photo. He was trying to transfer the music clip now. It was in fact an old hindi song, carrying a hidden cam video of the huge vehicle entering the dreaded place. It could mean only one thing. Kareen Khan has gone crazy!

The music clip will take around three hours to upload, and there was one more hours to go. Fatigue and sleep slowly overcome Rauf and he slowly dozed off.

-----------------------------------

Sound of heavy boots on the stairs echoed throug the old house. There was no warning, no knock. There was a burst of automatic gunfire and the door fell down. Rauf woke up and looked up into the barrel of a machine gun. He glanced to the screen, but it was on screen saver. Being unable to move, he wished at least he could yank out the jumpdrive in the USB slot. The intruders, without a word, forced Rauf off his chair. One of them sat in front of the console and moved the mouse to deactivate the screen saver. Seeing it password locked, he did any PC user would do, the three finger salute. Rauf watched with satisfaction the LED on the jumpdrive flash twice and go dead. The PC shut down normally.

The intruders took Rauf down, loaded him up in an SUV and drove off. A group stayed back, sweeping the room and packing up the PC, CDs and other stuff in the room.

When Poor Ijaz came to Hyderabad Sweets next day, he didn't find the place open. He was surprised at that, because Rauf normally upens up at 9:00am sharp. Then he was more surprised when a policeman came and asked him to come with him.

No one heard about the two men thereafter.

-------------------------------

Hyderabad, India.

Old man Rama Rao was concerned. He was expecting the monthly telephone call from his nephew Jayasheel Rao for a week now. Though Jaya travels the world, being a freelance photographer contributing to magazines like National Geographic, he never missed the monthly call to his uncle. After all, he was the only relative alive, after his parents were killed in a terrorist attack in early 90s. Then the phone rang, and a different voice came on.

"Uncle, I am Sunil, a friend of JRJ". Rao didn't understand. "JRJ?" h asked. "Sorry, I mean Jayasheel, we call him JRJ. I am sorry, but I got to tell you this". A pang of fear passed through Rao's heart. He waited. "Jayasheel went missing in an expedition in African Jungle. We have a rescue party on, but there is no information yet". Rao didn't know what to say. The conversation went on for some more time, with Sunil promising to keep him updated.

Rama Rao never met his nephew again, and he did not know that it was the unselfish work by his nephew that saved his country from a nuclear strike.

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Postby mbuffett » 16 Jul 2005 04:53

Shankar:

You have provided an edge of the seat thriller. One word Awsome.

Keep it up.

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Postby Bala_R » 16 Jul 2005 10:35

Shankar
Great going man. The Indian response of not mentioning anything regarding the PAF F-16s is really great, something really not the usual way.

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Postby Shankar » 16 Jul 2005 13:07

TIMES OF INDIA -16 -08-2007

Pakistani navy ships take part in US Military exercise
------------------------------------------------------------------
Four Pakistani naval vessels have sucessfully taken part in a joint exercise in the indian ocean for the last seven days . The exercise was undertaken to further strngthen the inter operatibility of the two navies in its war on terror. We are deeply impressed with professionalism and seamanship skills of Pakistani navla personnel .We sincerely hope to have more such " encounters " in future .- said the USN spokesperson on board USS Carl Vincent a Nimitz class air craft carrier somewhere in the indian ocean .
The onboard farewell dinner was an elaborate affair which included the journalists The next morning the pakistani naval detachment would leave for home . In view of escaliting tension in the region they were ordered to report back with max speed.

The small pakistani naval force comprising of frigate Tippu sultan Zulfiquar, Shamsher and tanker Moavin was in fact the cutting edge of pakistani navys surface fleet . PN Shamsher and Zulfiquar were ex royal navy leander class frigates . PN Tippu sultan was an amazon class frigate .
All were equipped with harpoon surface to surface missile but since on exercise the launchers were electronically safed to prevent any unauthorised launch in course of the exercise . USN did not get to being the most powerful navy in the world by being careless. And around a carrier their security worry is undestandably nerve wrecking . Ally or no ally no one come within a 100 kms of carrier task force with live weapon systems . The pakistani ships fire control system will was programmed by the USN techies to automatically reevrt to normal firing mode once at least 200 kms from Carl Vincent . This was not a step appreciated by pakistani task force commander but when you owe your existance to a single nation -you dont argue

Western Naval command -Mumbai
---------------------------------------
The high resolution 1.5 mtr shots taken by the oceansat 2 just 2 hrs back was on the desk of Vice admiral L.K Chaterjee flanked by his staff officers . The exercise area was located 500 kms south east Thiruvanthapuram and pride of pakistani surface fleet would have to cross the entire expanse of arabian sea before reaching the security of their own base and air cover . The route was not expected to direct but it was reasonably sure that the PN fleet would follow the nine degree channel on its way to karachi with lakswadeep on its port side .

INS Brahmaputra was never forgotten by the navy -though the world attention was focussed on daring air strike on Jamnagar the navy brass was waiting and waiting for the chance to strike and strike hard. The oppertunity was given to them on a silver platter

After much deliberation which included use of some very colourful language by very senior naval officers on what should be done to all of pakistani navy the strike plan was finalised and forwarded to defense ministry thru naval head quarters and the approved plan with 101 notations was back on desk of flag officer commanding western naval command just as the sun was setting down over western horizon.

NAVAL DOCK MUMBAI - 2300 hrs
---------------------------i
INS DELHI the first of 3 delhi class destroyers slipped its anchor and dissapeared in a southerly direction . She was accompanied by 3 more leander class frigates , and a fleet oiler .

KARWAR NAVAL BASE -KARNATAKA -17/8/2007- 0400 hrs
------------------------------------------
INS MYSORE the second of the 3 delhi class destroyer accompanied by a guided missile frigate INS Beas quitely moved out before day break to take up patrol station north of lakswadeep chain of islands . She would be joined by INS Delhi group to form an Impentrable screen thru which it would be very difficult for even smuggling dhow to pass thru -let alone a hostile naval task force

NAVAL AIR STATION -THIRUBANTHAPURAM
-------------------------------------------------------
2 giant Tu-142 Bears took off within a span of 30 minutes and fanned out to seek out its designated querry . Between them the divided the oceans surface into distict search grid starting from last reported position fo the pak naval detachment and started a methodical grid based surface search of the ocean floor . More accurate postioning was expected only after 11 hrs when the next pass of radar ocean recon satelite will take place .

ISRO SATELITE COMMAND CENTRE
----------------------------------------
It was a direct authenticated call from defense minister. A course change was requested on top mos authority . The engineer in charge of mnitoring and controlling oceansat 2 issued the nessecery command in his console .
A small retro rocket fired for 4.2 seconds and marginally changed the course of the satelite flying at 1000 kms altitude ona sunsynchronous polar orbit . This will make the sateliet visit USN-PN exercise area onec again.

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Postby Pennathur » 16 Jul 2005 18:55

Shankar,

TSPN cruises with the Lakshadweep islands on its port side or the starboard? That would be in the channel between Lakshadweep and the mainland.

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Postby Dileep » 17 Jul 2005 01:55

Didn't these incidents happen in 2008?. The Brahmaputra was sank on 4th March, 2008 according to Singha. The Jamnagar incident happened AFTER the Brahmaputra/Khalid incident. Also, all these happened after the Madame rescue, which again happened in 2008.

Since Kareen Khan got pissed off on loss of Khalid, will he take all the way to August for the air adventure? But I will let it pass.


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