Religion Thread 2

Rony
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Post by Rony »

Rakesh wrote:
The article basically states that Christ never really rose from the dead. I just laughed and turned to the next page of the newspaper. I really don't get bothered by such books & articles.
.
Do you really beleive that christ rose from dead ?
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Post by S.Valkan »

TSJones wrote: He doesn't have to substantiate *your* assertion, *you* do. You made the original assertion, not him. Your intellectual laziness or acuity is at question here. Defend it. Or maybe you...can't.....
No need to cajole, jonesy boy!

Suffice it to say that I was being a little discreet.

As Alok N is well aware, I could take the logical wind out of your sanctimonius sails in a philosophical debate if I wished, but I usually refrain from it in a civil discourse.
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Post by Alok_N »

TSJones wrote:But, but how would you know? Are you having a change of heart today? :)
indulging in blasphemy, are we? ... how can I change the heart that dear god gave me? ... does free will include heart transplants at will?
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Alok_N wrote:
Pulikeshi wrote: But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?
this will be challenged by many here ...
I would be disappointed if it was not! That is the Dharmic way...
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Post by vsudhir »

Negi,
I would comment only after I get the original sanskrit nugget(for I assume god here refers to Indra & Co and not the Trinity(Brahma,Vishnu or Shiva).Anyways If I am not wrong hindi translation of this verse was the OST for 'Bharat Ek Khoj'.Paging Sroy ji for mailing it to the Brfites who would like to listen to it.
Click here for the starting track of Bharat Ek Khoj.

Correct me If I'm mistaken but IIRC, it also includes an exquisite rendition of a portion of the hymn of creation in the Rg Veda
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Sanju
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Post by Sanju »

Arun_S wrote:
Murugan wrote:Arun_S

Regarding Ram Sita Coins of East India Company

Dear, you are right they didn't have any problem with relgious icons on coins/currencies,

But the east India company's ram sita huanuma and Om coins images you have posted here are FAKES. Yes, FAKES.

If you are paying for buying for such coins, please desist. There are lots a forgeries around
OK I will check out some more. BTW bought those from Mumbai's bazaar.

I have the Krause publication for the wold coins for the 1901-2000. If you are interested in looking at coins in that era let me know.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

negi wrote:
Pulikeshi wrote: But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?
I would comment only after I get the original sanskrit nugget(for I assume god here refers to Indra & Co and not the Trinity(Brahma,Vishnu or Shiva).Anyways If I am not wrong hindi translation of this verse was the OST for 'Bharat Ek Khoj'.Paging Sroy ji for mailing it to the Brfites who would like to listen to it.
Negi,

Yes, the Hindu Trinity was a later evolution than the vedic Gods - Indra (originally Agni was the chief) and company. However, there is no confusion as to the spirit of the sukta irrespective of who the Gods are! Be they Ram, Allah or Jesus or someone else.... They all probably came after this verse anyway (to use a monotheistic argument style) ;-)

Now, it would be entirely your Dharma to dispute them sages and show them why they were wrong. Hinduism allows for correction over geologic time. You are most welcome to chip away at the meme - that gods were created after creation :mrgreen:

Hinduism empowers you to question the Gods. If you want to be a "lump of clay" at the mercy of the potter - choose the blue pill, have faith it will cure you of your sins.

The problem arises when someone (EvanJihadists) reduces my freedom to pursue my memes, by declaring pursuing particular memes will doom you in "Hell" and therefore we will send you there sooner rather than later!
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Post by Sadler »

I normally hate doing this. But, in this case there's a point i'd like toemphasize.

My post below.
Sadler wrote:
Calvin wrote:Sadler:

There is a difference between a private residence and public place of worship. Do you suppose that a place of worship in the US would be able to deny entry to people on the basis of race, gender, or religion?
I still stand by my assertion that a place of worship is not a "public" place. If it were, i could stroll in there in my jammies or a woman could walk in there in a thong. Perhaps these are extreme comparisons, but still valid. You held up the example of a few temples denying admittance to non-hindus as a rebuttal of the putative tolerance of hindus. I proved, beyond doubt, that you were incorrect. And i cited the examples of Farsis in India, who have carved a great existence for themselves in India. They are respectful of the native indian faiths and yet, for their own religious reasons do not admit non-Farsis to their Fire Temple. THey have every right to deny a non-Farsi admittance to their holy sites. This non-admittance is not based on race or color (yet another diversion you cleverly chose to introduce - and you accuse me of inventing strawmen. HAH?) but IS BASED on religion. And they are perfectly justified in doing that.

So, your "putative tolerance" remark was exposed for what it was.

Also, you obviously have had time to research which hindu temples do not admit non-hindus. That must have taken some time, wot?

Yet it is simply amazing that you cannot find a fraction of that time to uncover the inherent intolerance and bigotry of EJ. Leave it to Mr G. Sub (sorry, name too long) to cite post after post. I mean if i was defending a certain practice, i would certainly at least undertake rudimentary research to determine what exactly it is that i am defending. But, perhaps you are so taken up by trying to rebut "putative hindu tolerance" that you have no time to research the vile agenda of the EJ. Sad, no?

Calvin wrote:For the rest of your email, it appears that you are setting up straw-men for the purpose of personally attacking me.
Quite the contrary. I dont need strawmen, when i can use your own, and in my view prejudiced, arguments against you.

BTW, i was not attacking you. I was attacking your intolerant defence of the bigotry of EJ. Big difference.

As for "setting up strawmen", seemed like a cop-out to me. Nice verbal jugglery to spare yourself the onerous task of answering my questions.

FWIW, i dont expect you to present any credible answers to this or many other excellent emails that have challenged your views in a very polite yet forceful way.

The fact that i want to expose about you to BRF is simple.

You are defending the vile, bigotted and despicable act of EJ. That is all i want BRF to see about you. Nothing more and nothing less. I am not attacking you as a person, but certainly your views.

AGAIN, lest you twist my words. Here is my simple agenda, if you will.

To show BRF the inherent hollowness of your defence of the EJ. And the fact that you seem to have more than sufficient time researching and re-butting the "putative tolerance" of hindus (temples) and others but yet, strangely enough, nary a moment to research the agenda of the EJ.


Your Reply:

Calvin wrote:Sadler: If you haven't caught the drift of my interest yet, then you probably never will. The greatest crimes and killings have been caused in the names of the "greater good of society", in many cases embodied in the power of the state. Protection of individual rights is the only thing that can possibly protect us in the long run. In that context, freedom of speech is one of the most important rights. If you cannot "get" this, it is probably because emotional revulsion towards evangelists overrides the logical argument defending individual rights.

You are "asserting" that the Parsis have a right to discriminate on the basis of religion. From what I can tell, if they were in the US, they would most definitely NOT have that right.

This particular thread spent a significant fraction of its initial life discussing Dharmic beliefs, and what I as an outsider noticed was the discrepancy between the ideals being discussed and the reality which I had actually experienced. I merely wondered whether highly erudite Christian scholars would debate the finer points of Christianity and completely ignore the reality that the vast majority of its practioners deal with. No one has yet chosen to discuss this.
Actually, your problem is that I understand all too well the "drift of your interest" and this is precisely what i have attempted to shine light on for the rest of BRF.

I rest my case.

PS. i'd wager my SS check for this month that if you were to hold a ballot at this time on how many BRF-ers have bought your "drift of interest" vs. what i have been stating, you'd lose rather badly.
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Post by sanjaykumar »

I could take the logical wind out of your sanctimonius sails in a philosophical debate if I wished, but I usually refrain from it in a civil discourse

This is uncalled for-Jones is a full-fledged member and has given a valuable POV and justified it as he sees fit. Intellectual arrogance is no more acceptable than religious hubris.

Jones at least is not the fire and scoot variety of evangelist.
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Post by Rakesh »

Rony wrote:Do you really beleive that christ rose from dead ?
Yes I do. I cannot be a Christian otherwise :)
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Post by Sadler »

S.Valkan wrote:
TSJones wrote: He doesn't have to substantiate *your* assertion, *you* do. You made the original assertion, not him. Your intellectual laziness or acuity is at question here. Defend it. Or maybe you...can't.....
No need to cajole, jonesy boy!

Suffice it to say that I was being a little discreet.

As Alok N is well aware, I could take the logical wind out of your sanctimonius sails in a philosophical debate if I wished, but I usually refrain from it in a civil discourse.
:rotfl:



TSJ: The reaction that you see on this forum is a forerunner and essentially a reaction to the years, decades even of the EJ thrust to demean other faiths, primarily the Indian faiths. The point is that two can play the game. The moslems respond to such insults by we all know what.

The indians, being the proud inheritors of an ancient civilization (of course, not all indians care about this 5000-yr old civilization as was declared on this forum), are much more intelligent than the EJs gave them credit for.

Dont sling $hit because it might just get slung your way. I am not saying that you started this whole EJ business. You did not. But to defend the agenda of EJ, is an indefensible proposition. At least one has tried and stands exposed.

What you can do is to certainly practise your own faith freely and provide breathing space to others as well. Aint that what the good ole US of A is all about. Where despite many mistakes, trials and tribulations, all americans can justifiably be proud of what it has achieved. And i say this, even with the numerous screw-ups of Dubya notwithstanding.
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Post by TSJones »


Will Yeshu'a and the god of christians consign both Einstein and Gandhi to hell simply because they are not christians even if otherwise they may have (for the sake of argument) led faultless lives.


Well, it is a specious argument because they could not have led faultless lives. I always hope to avoid specious arguments. :)

Also I do not believe in pre-destination. I think that where a person is headed is pretty much between him and the Creator. Nothing I can do about it but offer deepest sympathy.

Did you hear the one about the guy who died and was sent straight to hell? he was met by Satan and taken on a tour. There are many chambers in hell and Satan stoped at each chamber and offered it as an option to spend the rest of eternity. One chamber had people being tortured horribly. The guy said "No thanks". They stopped at another chamber and people were being burnt alive, cast into fire. The guy told Satan, "No thanks". Finally, Satan said "Look this is your last choice". The guy looked into the chamber and he saw all of these people neck deep in sewage and s**t, calmly drinking coffee. The guy said "Ok, I'll take take this one!". Just as the guy waded in to get his cup of coffee a loud voice announced over the intercom, "OK everybody! Coffee break is over! Get back on your hands and knees!". :D
Last edited by TSJones on 20 Mar 2007 21:33, edited 1 time in total.
HariC
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Post by HariC »

Rony wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
The article basically states that Christ never really rose from the dead. I just laughed and turned to the next page of the newspaper. I really don't get bothered by such books & articles.
.
Do you really beleive that christ rose from dead ?
Why are we asking dumb questions? Would you go to a hindu and ask him do you really believe if Rama actually led a 'monkey army'? or if Buddha is one of the dasavataras of Vishnu? whats the point in asking a christian if he belives christ rose from dead etc?
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Post by Sadler »

Rakesh wrote:Sadler I will reply soon to your post. Supreme HQ is complaining that I am spending too much time on BR. Will reply when she is not around :)
That seems to be the common refrain of the BRF community. I'd love to know why it is that God did not give wives the good sense to realize that spending time on BRF is a noble pursuit worthy of her forebearance. But such are the ways of God that a few mins taken by BRF-ers to greet visiting Shaheens invite the choicest of rejoinders from SHQ. Well, let it never be said that the path to greatness (or increasing ones' post count on BRF) was easy.

Heck, i think BRF should qualify as a religious institution. Have not many a thread been crucified on this forum only to make miraculous resurrections?
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Post by JCage »

sanjaykumar wrote:I could take the logical wind out of your sanctimonius sails in a philosophical debate if I wished, but I usually refrain from it in a civil discourse

This is uncalled for-Jones is a full-fledged member and has given a valuable POV and justified it as he sees fit. Intellectual arrogance is no more acceptable than religious hubris.

Jones at least is not the fire and scoot variety of evangelist.
If Jones can dish it out. He can take it as well. His comments on Dalits and Tribals and worshipping rocks, trees and ancestors show where he is coming from, in terms of attitude.
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Post by Alok_N »

HariC wrote:Why are we asking dumb questions?
the question is not dumb if it helps clarify the assumptions of one's faith ... since Rakesh has answered, I assume that he didn't consider it dumb ...

I was able to do an anti-EJ operation on my SHQ simply by asking a dumb question onlee ... it all started with "do you really believe in heaven and hell?" ... she hasn't been to church since ... :)
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Post by Vishy_mulay »

That seems to be the common refrain of the BRF community. I'd love to know why it is that God did not give wives the good sense to realize that spending time on BRF is a noble pursuit worthy of her forebearance. But such are the ways of God that a few mins taken by BRF-ers to greet visiting Shaheens invite the choicest of rejoinders from SHQ. Well, let it never be said that the path to greatness (or increasing ones' post count on BRF) was easy.

Heck, i think BRF should qualify as a religious institution. Have not many a thread been crucified on this forum only to make miraculous resurrections?
:rotfl:
Om Sadleraya namha!
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Post by Sadler »

TSJones wrote:
Will Yeshu'a and the god of christians consign both Einstein and Gandhi to hell simply because they are not christians even if otherwise they may have (for the sake of argument) led faultless lives.


Well, it is a specious argument because they could not have led faultless lives. I always hope to avoid specious arguments. :)

Also I do not believe in pre-destination. I think that where a person is headed is pretty much between him and the Creator. Nothing I can do about it but offer deepest sympathy.
Well, let me re-phrase my question to avoid any specious components.

Will Yeshu'a and the god of christians consign both Einstein and Gandhi to hell simply because they are not christians?

Also I do not believe in pre-destination. I think that where a person is headed is pretty much between him and the Creator. Nothing I can do about it but offer deepest sympathy.
Then you are completely at odd with the Vatican and EJs of all hues and perhaps even some "moderate" christians who all fervently believe that non-belief in Yeshu'a and god predestines the heathen (jew and hindu alike) to hell.[/quote]
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Post by Alok_N »

sanjaykumar wrote:This is uncalled for-Jones is a full-fledged member and has given a valuable POV ...
I am all for members' freedom etc, but let's not carried away in assigning value ...

TSJ is badly misunderstood because he is an Indophile at heart (which doesn't change) ... all of his needling must stem from envy due to not having been born in India ... :)
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Post by TSJones »


I was able to do an anti-EJ operation on my SHQ simply by asking a dumb question onlee ... it all started with "do you really believe in heaven and hell?" ... she hasn't been to church since ...


Geez, just in the nick of time. You must be proud. And how does this fit into your "agnosticism"? 8)
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Post by Alok_N »

TSJones wrote:Geez, just in the nick of time. You must be proud. And how does this fit into your "agnosticism"? 8)
it fits very well ... I can still take a $400 tax deduction on SHQ's non-trips to church ... I can be unsure about the existence of god but those 4 bills look very real ... its a tough problem onlee ... :lol:

actually, Pulikeshi has provided the correct term for my philosophy ... it is monistic, rather than agnostic ... Sadler may call it monistity ... :)

TSJ, as long as you indulge in analysing me, expect to be analysed by me as well ... or, we can just drop it ...
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Post by rocky »

Sadler wrote:
TSJones wrote: Then you are completely at odd with the Vatican and EJs of all hues and perhaps even some "moderate" christians who all fervently believe that non-belief in Yeshu'a and god predestines the heathen (jew and hindu alike) to hell.
Thanks for pointing this out, Sadler. I never thought about this contradiction before.
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Post by shiv »

JCage wrote: If Jones can dish it out. He can take it as well. His comments on Dalits and Tribals and worshipping rocks, trees and ancestors show where he is coming from, in terms of attitude.
Naaah - he's just jealous 'cos he can't get God like I do.

Me- I'm sitting in front of God now - she's in my keyboard.
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Post by Rakesh »

Sadler wrote:Here's my take, fwiw.
Sorry...but what is FWIW? :) I keep reading that everywhere.
Sadler wrote:On the other hand, using the excuse of "spreading the gospel" to accost folks on the street by asking them "son, how'd you like to go to heaven?" is indefensible, biggoted and repugnant. For it presumes, for one that the non-christian target is not going to heaven, and therefore is presumably a sinner. How the duck can a christian (EJ) make such an utterance? And further, he/she may well think that the christian path, through JC, is the only way to salvation. But, the moment the christian says to a non-christian that the non-C is going to hell, there is a problem. That is the kind of "spread the gospel" that i disapprove.
Yes that is wrong approach to spreading the gospel. However as a Christian, one cannot deny that a non-belief in Jesus Christ can also lead you to heaven. But I will explain that in more detail at the very end of this post.
Sadler wrote:To sum: No problem if a person, from whatever religion or an atheist or agnostic, of his/her own free volition decides to change his/her religion.
Yes absolutely. That is a fundamental right granted to every individual. It is easy to "convert" (again even using that term is wrong and I will explain why later on) illiterate Indians into Christians by showing some healing magic. That is not Christianity. That is a hoax.
Sadler wrote:But, under no circumstances is it acceptable to accost people either on the street or on their own doorsteps, only to insult them. That's biggoted, pure and simple. And i dont care if JC Himself told his followers to do that.
Rest assured. Jesus Christ never asked his followers to do that.
Sadler wrote:Again, the question is: As a christian, do you believe (or are comfortable in believing) that Einstein and Gandhi because they were not christians are destined to go to hell, whereas a pedophile catholic priest will be with JC/God because he fervently believes in God and accepts that JC is his son.
Is Einstein in heaven, if he did not believe in Jesus Christ? NO

Is Gandhi in heaven, if he did not believe in Jesus Christ? NO

Is the pedophile catholic priest in heaven, although he claimed to believe in Jesus Christ? STILL HELL NO
Sadler wrote:Once again, i am not asking you where they are right now. What i am asking you is whether you believe that they both are DESTINED for hell simply because they are not christians. And if yes, are you personally comfortable believing so. If yes, why yes? If not, why no?
Being born a Christian or even claiming to be a Christian, does not guarentee that you are saved. There is a very good sermon by Jonathan Edwards, titled How To Know If You Are A Real Christian. I am not going to add anything more to what Jonathan Edwards has said below, as he explains it best;

http://www.puritansermons.com/sermons/edwards1.htm

Sadler, even Christians go to hell. You can't claim to believe in Christ and then go around & molest children. That makes no sense. God ain't a fool.
Sadler wrote:I have observed you answering questions so far very honestly. I believe that the question above is a toughie. Should you choose to pass, i can certainly respect your decision. Again, thanks and Shalom.
I am not passing up your question, as I did not understand what you were saying earlier. My apologies. Now to the issue of who is saved and who isn't. For that, you and I will have to imagine the following;

Scenario 1 - If you came up to me and asked me, "Hey Rakesh, you know I don't believe in Jesus Christ and salvation. That stuff makes no sense to me. Will I still go to heaven?" Now for me to look you in the eye and tell you yes, will be me going against the Word of God. So neither are you going to heaven and more importantly, neither am I. Because I knew what the truth was and I lied to you. Now it is up to you to accept it or reject it. I cannot force you to believe ANYTHING. Not because I can't, but I don't have that ability. I am not God and I can't play God, like the Evanjehadists do. On a personal (one-on-one) level, Scenario 1 is pretty straightforward. But not so, in Scenario 2.

Scenario 2 - If you took me to a temple and asked me, "Hey Rakesh, you see these 500 people in here all worshipping Vishnu. Do you think they are all going to hell?" My answer is I don't know. Now I am not avoiding your question or trying to be diplomatic. But just as I explained above, that I am not God...I cannot in good conscience tell you where they are going. Only God knows where those 500 people are going to land up. I can't comment on salvation with a large group of people. To even say that those 500 people are all going to heaven/hell would be akin to me having the foreknowledge of God, which is something I don't have.

So how can Evanjehadists tell you that Hindus are all going to hell? That concept makes no sense! They are lying to you!

And now - this is not just you for Sadler, but for everyone who is reading this - man CANNOT and DOES NOT convert his fellow man into Christianity. Conversion happens through God and through Him alone. All what man does is spread the Gospel. Do not be fooled by that bullsh!t. If God has the foreknowledge of who is going to be saved, then how can an Evanjehadist claim to have converted you? And the reason why I am telling all of you this, is because Evanjehadists want you to believe that they are performing acts of conversion. But in reality all they are doing within India, is "supposedly" healing people who are have ailments that cannot be physically seen (i.e. Cancer, AIDS, etc). And based on that healing magic they supposedly do, they want you to believe in Christ. He Himself never set that as a requirement for belief, then how can his so-called followers say it is! If their healing was really that true, then ask them to give a physically handicapped man (who is missing his legs) the ability to walk. Ask them to raise people from the dead. They cannot, because it is all a hoax. A lie. I end this post with the following;

Mathew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Jesus Christ is referring to the Evanjehadists here.

S Valkan - Supreme HQ is back :) Will reply soon. I gotta scooter outta here!
Last edited by Rakesh on 20 Mar 2007 22:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shiv »

Rakesh wrote:
Sadler wrote:Here's my take, fwiw.
Sorry...but what is FWIW? :) I keep reading that everywhere.
FWIW - For What It's Worth.
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Post by Alok_N »

for what its worth, fwiw stand for "faking wisdom in words" ... 8)
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Post by svinayak »

Rakesh wrote: The Catholic Church has single-handedly done more to destroy Christianity than any other Christian sect. That institution is the last one to pass moral judgements on anyone. The Pope and the Vatican have no santicty in them anymore and they never had it for quite a while. Pope Benedict XVI is the one who said St Thomas never really came to India. He is attempting to erase a part of Indian history that is factual and Christianity in India is not the only institution under attack, rather India as a whole is a victim of this cancer that is Evanjehadism.

The only evanjehadists that I have seen, are the ones on TV and the ones I read on the internet. However I have gotten into discussions with Pentecostals (the largest growing sect in Christianity and the one of the worst sects out there) and lets just say, it is not pretty :) To attack an evanjehadi, you must defeat him at his own game - gift of the gab and a thorough knowledge of the Bible.

Next time an evanjehadist comes up to you, ask him this...If God Loves Everyone, Does God Love Satan? More than likely he will say, after squirming for a while, "Well Satan is not Human!" Then ask him, but you just said God Loves Everyone...so I guess that is not true! Then ask him does God Love Adolf Hitler? If he says no, then he has already lost his credibility and pay him no more attention. If he says yes, then ask him is Adolf Hitler in heaven? Because going by all accounts of his life on earth, it is safe to assume then Adolf Hitler is in hell. By this point, he will already believe that you are possessed of the Devil. He will either leave you or try and convince you some more. If the latter happens, tell him that since you can't commit to either question in a satisfactory manner (that pleases you!) that you don't see the need to listen to him anymore. Also tell him to learn the Bible before he goes out attempting to harvest souls.
This is a good one. Thanks
But may be simplistic for the more aggressive EJs
Are there any other pointers which can be used.

One of my friend in US invited the EJs into the house and said he believed in God and also in Jesus. And started Chanting
Om Jesusaya Namaha!
Om Jesusaya Namaha!

The EJ's quickly scrambled out of the house never to return back!
Last edited by svinayak on 20 Mar 2007 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TSJones »


Naaah - he's just jealous 'cos he can't get God like I do.

Me- I'm sitting in front of God now - she's in my keyboard.


Et tu, Brutus? :P
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Post by Kakkaji »

JCage wrote:If Jones can dish it out. He can take it as well. His comments on Dalits and Tribals and worshipping rocks, trees and ancestors show where he is coming from, in terms of attitude.
That's one more reason why this thread should be archived forever. :wink:

TSJ's mask has finally slipped on this thread. 8)

Behind the mask of being the 'lovable, joke-spouting, ex-military American who is interested in US-India friendship' stands one who is filled with disdain about India's ancient religions and culture, who thinks Indians are incapable of solving the problems faced by their society by themselves, and who supports EJism as the solution to India's problems.

As for worshipping rocks, stones, trees etc. you see the same refrain on Paki and other Jihadi fora. It seems the Jihadis and EvanJihadis are one on this issue. What the heck is their problem whether I worship rocks or a pile of sh1t?

Among world's major monotheistic religions, Judaism also disparages idolatory, and calls Jews 'the chosen people of God', but it does not seek to enforce its belief on others.

Sikhism is monotheistic and has a holy book, but the Sikhs do not seek to get rid of all the idolators in the world.

It is only the Jihadis and Evanjihadis, who seek to force the entire world to convert to their faith.

The J's and the EJ's deserve each other. I wish they would meet houris/ quotas by converting and re-converting each other, and leave the rest of us Kafirs/ Unbelievers in peace. :)

BTW, I've been re-reading Ivanhoe (read it once in childhood, forgot all about it). Man, the way they treated Jews in those days is unbelievable. And then they have the gall to talk about 'atrocities against Dalits/ Tribals'? :roll:

Is EJ-ism mainly an American-funded phenomenon now? Hasn't most of Western Europe grown out of it?
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Hi Rakesh,

You may want to think about what you said in Scenario 2 a little more:
"Hey Rakesh, you see these 500 people in here all worshipping Vishnu. Do you think they are all going to hell?"
Your argument here falls into the "argumentum ad populum" category.

As an aside, I for one do not believe that Christian theology allows us to judge what God will do either with an individual or a group.
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Post by rocky »

Now for me to look you in the eye and tell you yes, will be me going against the Word of God. So neither are you going to heaven and more importantly, neither am I. Because I knew what the truth was and I lied to you.
So Rakesh, by your logic, if a person comes and tells you that he doesn't believe in Christ, then God gives you the foreknowledge of saying that he will not go to heaven.

However if a bunch of people are worshipping Vishnu, then God doesn't give you the foreknowledge about what is going to happen to them after death?
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Post by JCage »

Kakkaji, that is if one buys into the mask in the first place.

He's never really changed- Agnis directed at the US, to hindutvadis etc and chankian hindus..NRI PHds who are disloyal to the US (gasp!) because they dont toe the party line..

Its just that folks expect better from him (why?) in a very goody goody sort of way.

Do you or does anyone still think you can teach him respect for such contemptuous heathen traditions such as worshipping rocks, monkeys, cows? Especially when he comes from a superior nation, with a superior religion which (gawsh!) is built upon respect for ones fellow man (so unique, I tell ya- aint like them heathen stone worshippers at all!)..

Heck, the Lawd knows all you Indians just wanna come to the US fer jobs and you never return and heck, you cant be trusted either..yer all hindoo fascists and the Agnis, them is directed against the US..
The J's and the EJ's deserve each other. I wish they would meet houris/ quotas by converting and re-converting each other, and leave the rest of us Kafirs/ Unbelievers in peace.
Amen.
BTW, I've been re-reading Ivanhoe (read it once in childhood, forgot all about it). Man, the way they treated Jews in those days is unbelievable. And then they have the gall to talk about 'atrocities against Dalits/ Tribals'?
I'd sure like to see 'em EJs try and uplift all them suffering black folk and hispanic folk in the ghettos...as a wag told me, they took our money, our lives and done left us with their religion...fair trade!
Incidentally the rise of Islam in the black community had a lot to do with them seeking out their native heritage as compared to an imposed religion...quite ironic, considering how islam spread in Africa and it wasnt all peaceful..
Most hispanics are devout catholics...so thats another sore spot for the holier than thou bigots from the protestant evangelical community...when out they go to harvest souls. Folks cant stand their own sects, but off they are to rid the world of 'em evil heathen pagans..
Is EJ-ism mainly an American-funded phenomenon now? Hasn't most of Western Europe grown out of it?
They "grew" out of it, when their holier than thou EJs turned their attentions closer home and became a pain in the butt, but of late there has been a resurgence..
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Post by rocky »

JCage wrote:I'd sure like to see 'em EJs try and uplift all them suffering black folk and hispanic folk in the ghettos...as a wag told me, they took our money, our lives and done left us with their religion...fair trade!
One of the points of hypocrisy in the Evanjehadical community.

Here's a poser. The newest form (in the last few decades) of conversion is adoption. These EJs go around the world, and adopt infant children and convert them to Christianity. These programs are actually advertised as "Church-based adoption" to help the needy.

The latest UN development report for child infants reports that the number of infants up for adoption in Christian countries like Russia, USA, and South American countries itself is huge. Russia has at any given time about 300,000 babies up for adoption.

Contrast this with Islamic countries like Indonesia which have about 3000 babies up for adoption at any given point in time.

Yet almost all the major "give poor infant children an opportunity" types flock to countries like Indonesia. Because this is where soul harvesting can be done. What's the point in harvesting souls in a Christian country like Russia?
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Post by Kakkaji »

rocky wrote:
Now for me to look you in the eye and tell you yes, will be me going against the Word of God. So neither are you going to heaven and more importantly, neither am I. Because I knew what the truth was and I lied to you.
So Rakesh, by your logic, if a person comes and tells you that he doesn't believe in Christ, then God gives you the foreknowledge of saying that he will not go to heaven.

However if a bunch of people are worshipping Vishnu, then God doesn't give you the foreknowledge about what is going to happen to them after death?
rocky:

I don't see any need to badger Rakesh on this point anymore. He said 'going against Word of God'. It means 'Word of God' as he believes it to be. On matters of faith, we can all be backed into a corner where the only argument we can give is 'because I believe it to be so'. Rakesh is honest to admit that there are things that he believes, and there are things that he knows, and that he does not know everything because he is not God.

The problem is not between Christians like Rakesh and Hindus like us. His faith and my faith can live next to each other and be good neighbours and friends. The problem is with EJs who try to force their belief on me. That is where the conflict starts.
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Post by SaiK »

[quote="Pulikeshi"]

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Last edited by SaiK on 20 Mar 2007 22:57, edited 1 time in total.
JCage
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Post by JCage »

Well said Kakkaji! Live and let live. Everyones faith is precious to them.
Last edited by JCage on 20 Mar 2007 22:59, edited 1 time in total.
rocky
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Post by rocky »

The problem is not between Christians like Rakesh and Hindus like us. His faith and my faith can live next to each other and be good neighbours and friends. The problem is with EJs who try to force their belief on me. That is where the conflict starts.
No Kakkaji. You are just brushing away the matter under the carpet.

What Rakesh is saying goes against the basic human decency of treating everybody equal. When there is a known bias in a Christian believer against everybody non-Christian, the basic human decency and principle of equality goes out of the window.

This is religious racism.
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Post by svinayak »

Kakkaji wrote:
JCage wrote:If Jones can dish it out. He can take it as well. His comments on Dalits and Tribals and worshipping rocks, trees and ancestors show where he is coming from, in terms of attitude.
That's one more reason why this thread should be archived forever. :wink:

TSJ's mask has finally slipped on this thread. 8)
The image of nature worship is very strong in the visual mind of the Islamists and Ejs who do not know the history of the 5000 year Indian civilization.
That image is used by them to disparage Hindus and India.

The concept of backwardness and low human evolution is associated with nature, idol, ancestors worship in the Islamic and Christian historical narration.

In Indian civilization they are shocked to discover the most extensive literature and deep human thought exploring all aspect of human development over millenium. This does not connect with the visual and practices of the society and their hatred and disgust comes across openly.
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Post by Kakkaji »

Hey, can I claim a new BRF acronym now? :wink:

JEJ = Jihadi/ Evanjihadi = Two sets of people who believe and practice (in different ways) that no faith/ POV other than theirs should survive in the world.

Not to be confused with JRJ the RAWman!
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