Religion Thread 3

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Religion Thread 3

Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 01:46

Last edited by Rakesh on 28 Mar 2007 05:40, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby HariC » 21 Mar 2007 01:54

Valkan

all good in theory, but why is this not being practiced? and whose fault is it?

Shouldnt there be Evanje-hindus going out and telling the suppressed casts that they can become brahmins or (chosse your own) overnight? and that there really is not much attraction to go the way of evanjehadis? Why isnt that being done?

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 01:55

Pulikeshi wrote:You may want to think about what you said in Scenario 2 a little more: Your argument here falls into the "argumentum ad populum" category. As an aside, I for one do not believe that Christian theology allows us to judge what God will do either with an individual or a group.


I am stating what man can and cannot do. What God does is entirely up to him. I cannot tell someone that they are saved, based on my faith and from my understanding of the Bible, if they don't believe in Jesus Christ. That is all I am saying. God could save those 500 individuals in the temple, if he wanted to. That is his perrogative, not mine.

rocky wrote:So Rakesh, by your logic, if a person comes and tells you that he doesn't believe in Christ, then God gives you the foreknowledge of saying that he will not go to heaven. However if a bunch of people are worshipping Vishnu, then God doesn't give you the foreknowledge about what is going to happen to them after death?


I never said that God gave me the foreknowledge in Scenario 1. Please show me otherwise and I will gladly correct myself. All what I am saying is that if Sadler came up to me and asked that can I still go to heaven, if I don't believe in JC...my answer to Sadler is No. However I don't have the foreknowledge to know what is going to happen to Sadler for the rest of his life. At some point in the future, he may recieve the Gospel, believe it to be true and may get saved. How do I know?

To the rest: My replies are coming soon. Thanks.

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Postby Kakkaji » 21 Mar 2007 01:59

What's the best way to save the previous thread on my HDD? I don't want to copy paste the individual pages separately.

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Postby bala » 21 Mar 2007 01:59

The Xtian and Islam faith both assert that non-believers will be consigned to hell. In other words one set of followers will end up in hell if any of them happen to be true. The rest are all consigned to hell.

Is it a requirement for someone to be in the “knowâ€

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 02:01

HariC wrote:all good in theory, but why is this not being practiced? and whose fault is it?

Shouldnt there be Evanje-hindus going out and telling the suppressed casts that they can become brahmins or (chosse your own) overnight? and that there really is not much attraction to go the way of evanjehadis? Why isnt that being done?


you have asked a strange question ... aren't you well aware of what is being done in India?

the approach adopted by the politicians is to provide quotas ... there is no value to "becoming a brahmin" ... why are you advocating it?

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 02:06

bala wrote:The Xtian and Islam faith both assert that non-believers will be consigned to hell.


do they agree that their hells are the same or are there two different hells in their minds? ...

Rakesh, do you believe that an Islamic Hell exists as different from a Christian Hell? Or, do you believe that Islamic Hell does not exist?

I would appreciate it if you could explain how you view this ...

Also, any thoughts on physical location of Hell would be good.

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Postby Sanju » 21 Mar 2007 02:08

Hari C,

In the last page of the archived thread you had answered to Joey wrt to dwory in South India.

Yes, it is alive and practised by all the religions, atleast in Kerala. Few years ago, the going rate for a Muslim Engineer from a so-so family was Rs 2 crore.

Now there would be a reason for all you Engineering folks to make a fast buck, eh! :twisted:

It is a societal issue, not a religious one!

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re

Postby Dharmavir » 21 Mar 2007 02:09

HariC what about this:
Mizoram has shut its doors to any possible return of over 45,000
Reang migrants who had to flee to neighbouring Tripura and Assam
to escape mainly Christian missionary-backed atrocities and
forcible conversions.

Mizoram has shut its doors to any possible return of over 45,000
Reang migrants who had to flee to neighbouring Tripura and Assam
to escape mainly Christian missionary-backed atrocities and
forcible conversions.

Mr Zoramthanga's announcement has given a whole new dimension to
the Reang problem. Reangs have recently been saying that they
fled Mizoram as they were being forced to convert to Christianity
in a Christian-dominated State. Thus, the problem has now taken
up a communal colour too, from being essentially an ethnic and
political issue.


http://www.hvk.org/articles/0299/0050.html

Q. The slogans, "Nagalim for Christ" and "Nagaland for Christ" - what do they mean? Are they similar to "God bless America," or something more? Do they imply that Nagaland/Nagalim will be a land where Christ reigns supreme?

A. The slogan, Nagalim for Christ, arose out of the conviction of the Nagas, because they have been persuaded in the truth of the gospel. It does not mean that our government shall be theocratic, it will be as it is, government of the people, by the people, for the people which is much of a Christian principle.

"Nagalim for Christ" is the manifestation that Nagas can never part with their faith in Christ the savior. Therefore, we treasure Christian values of life.

But it must be clear that they are never meant for imposition on others. A society must need to be founded on ideal principles for the realization of the meaning of life.

Although our problem with India is national and political in nature, the issue of faith inevitably turns out, when challenged, to be the most enduring force in the ultimate analysis.

http://www.dailyherald.com/special/pass ... and_qa.asp

The leading separatist group in the north-east Indian state of Tripura has ordered indigenous tribespeople to stay away from celebrations of the Hindu festival Durga Puja.

The outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura warned that any tribal members seen taking part in the festival would be killed.

In a statement, the NLFT said it wanted all tribespeople in Tripura to become Christians

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/953200.stm

The government in India's north-eastern state of Tripura says it has evidence that the state's Baptist Church is involved in backing separatist rebels.

Tripura Chief Minister Manik Sarkar said state police had uncovered details of the alleged link after questioning a church leader.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/717775.stm

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Postby TSJones » 21 Mar 2007 02:10


Also, any thoughts on physical location of Hell would be good.


An alternate universe where the laws of physics breakdown. 8) Ed's drawing up an equation right now for ya.

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Postby Prem » 21 Mar 2007 02:14

HariC wrote:Valkan

all good in theory, but why is this not being practiced? and whose fault is it?

Shouldnt there be Evanje-hindus going out and telling the suppressed casts that they can become brahmins or (chosse your own) overnight? and that there really is not much attraction to go the way of evanjehadis? Why isnt that being done?


How does one become Brahmin, by birth, conduct, affirmative action or by getting everready to sacifice the land of birth for the glory of some alien dogma ?
A sudra of yours fighting terorrism in Kashmir is our kstariya and brahmin of yours doing bizness is our vaishya while Vaisya of yours doing the teaching is our brahmin .

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Postby Kakkaji » 21 Mar 2007 02:19

HariC:

In the previous thread you wrote:

inspite of all the greatness of hinduism, If I let my (imaginary) servant who (probably) comes from Schedule caste sit on the same table as mine and eat out of the same plate as mine, or sit in the same religous ceremony as i am in, i will get half a dozen rockets from everyone concerned - parents, spouse, my family priests etc for years to come. isnt that racism?


Does your servant not sit at the same table with you because:

1. He/ She is SC/ ST? or
2. He/ She is your servant?

Case 2 is true all over the world. In a developed country like the US, hardly any people can afford house-servants now but those that can, I doubt that their servants eat at the same table with them. When you read stories from 50-100 years ago, when many folks in the US/UK still had servants, the family meal was shared with the family and guests. How often do you read about servants sharing the meal with the family? The servants ate in the servant quarters. In the houses of the English Aristocracy, there was even a hierarchy among the servants. The butler would not share a meal with the stable boy.

IOW it is more a class issue than a caste issue.

If you believe it is Case 1, let me ask you another question:

If Mayawati or Ram Bilas Paswan came to your house today, would you refuse to share a meal with them at your table?

We come from a place where we would rather marry someone from a different religion (i.e marry a christian) than marry someone from the SC / ST community.


Really? Please do check the matrimonial web sites today. Count the no. of ads that say "Caste no bar" and the ads that say "Religion no bar". Let us see how the numbers compare.

The truth is , all religions have flaws and faults. its upto us to live with them. merely pointing out ' your religion sucks' when there are bigger warts on ours is an injustice.


Can you tell this to TSJ please? :)

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Postby ramana » 21 Mar 2007 02:20

Kakkaji, Go to the thread and hit the printer icon. It will then open in a new thread. Then hit the :II: icon. If using IE go to save and choose web archive mht format. That will save in one big file.
Last edited by ramana on 21 Mar 2007 02:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Prem » 21 Mar 2007 02:21

TSJones wrote:
Also, any thoughts on physical location of Hell would be good.


An alternate universe where the laws of physics breakdown. 8) Ed's drawing up an equation right now for ya.


Will we still be having the physical body in this alternative universe ? :eek:

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 02:21

TSJones wrote:
Also, any thoughts on physical location of Hell would be good.


An alternate universe where the laws of physics breakdown. 8) Ed's drawing up an equation right now for ya.


I asked for a physical location ... but since you volunteered an answer, is the alternate universe of muslims different from the alternate that you have faith in? ... further, will there be a bidding war between the two hells for my soul? ... :lol:

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Postby rocky » 21 Mar 2007 02:21

When the same disaffected lower caste guy changes his religion to get out of it, we blame the other reigion and not our society or religion! like it or not, a significant percentage of conversions are attracted to X-tianity because it promises them some kind of liberation from the SC/ST/Untouchable labels.
So question for you:

Why didn't the alleged "SC/ST/Untouchable" convert to Sikhism or Buddhism or Jainism?

Why did they convert to Islam and Christianity?

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Postby svinayak » 21 Mar 2007 02:23

rocky wrote:
When the same disaffected lower caste guy changes his religion to get out of it, we blame the other reigion and not our society or religion! like it or not, a significant percentage of conversions are attracted to X-tianity because it promises them some kind of liberation from the SC/ST/Untouchable labels.
So question for you:

Why didn't the alleged "SC/ST/Untouchable" convert to Sikhism or Buddhism or Jainism?

Why did they convert to Islam and Christianity?


It is a foriegn political movement with money and status

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Postby SaiK » 21 Mar 2007 02:31

Prem wrote:
HariC wrote:Valkan

all good in theory, but why is this not being practiced? and whose fault is it?

Shouldnt there be Evanje-hindus going out and telling the suppressed casts that they can become brahmins or (chosse your own) overnight? and that there really is not much attraction to go the way of evanjehadis? Why isnt that being done?


How does one become Brahmin, by birth, conduct, affirmative action or by getting everready to sacifice the land of birth for the glory of some alien dogma ?
A sudra of yours fighting terorrism in Kashmir is our kstariya and brahmin of yours doing bizness is our vaishya while Vaisya of yours doing the teaching is our brahmin .

why is one wrong extended to another wrong? the basis of caste is in itself a manifestation of social politics and cultural mentality at large. in those days it was followed for taking positions in life.. now, its same, but you are ordained by the GoI & Constitution so that the lower (by birth) ones are given special preferences, including that one can be a dud but can build a stealth fighter.

btw, your alien doctrine is defined by the genuine aliens. Genuine hindus, never said, we came from somewhere and landed via an UFO. lets keep the AIT away, if thats what you meant.

cast(r)ating like this only help to keep the DNAs within.. and never get the oppty to spread and share (unlike what muslims and alexandrians did - no good looking hindu women was spared with the crime - lets not get there..).

any one can be any one else.. but I guess the constitution is entirely different thing, that is OT. lets not mix issues.

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Postby SaiK » 21 Mar 2007 02:39

Hell, Heaven, Soul and the genuine :wink: God(s) have a physical location. But, it was not apparent till humans evolved. If it not been for this specialized concrete very physical living thing called "brain", nothing of these would have existed.

Now go figure about realities and -isms from this.

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Postby Sadler » 21 Mar 2007 02:43

Alok_N wrote:
Also, any thoughts on physical location of Hell would be good.


Texas in summer with almighty-conversing dubya as governor.

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Re: re

Postby Sadler » 21 Mar 2007 02:47


The government in India's north-eastern state of Tripura says it has evidence that the state's Baptist Church is involved in backing separatist rebels.

Tripura Chief Minister Manik Sarkar said state police had uncovered details of the alleged link after questioning a church leader.


Great Job. SValkan and Drahamvir. That should put the kibosh on at least one poster who was trying to play down the christian angle in this christianist-inspired terrorism in the indian northeast. The evidence you have uncovered should certainly expose the falseness of his claims.

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Postby SaiK » 21 Mar 2007 03:09


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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 04:44

Alok_N wrote:do they agree that their hells are the same or are there two different hells in their minds? ...

Rakesh, do you believe that an Islamic Hell exists as different from a Christian Hell? Or, do you believe that Islamic Hell does not exist?

I would appreciate it if you could explain how you view this ...

Also, any thoughts on physical location of Hell would be good.


There is no Islamic hell and Christian hell. There is also no Christian heaven and Islamic heaven. There is only heaven & hell. As for the location of heaven & hell, I don't know. But this much I do know, as a child I remember being taught (which I later realised to be false) that heaven is up in the sky and hell is below in the ground. Old folk tales.

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 05:00

Abhijit wrote:Rakesh, these two scenarios are self-contradictory (if I understand you correctly). In scene1 you are claiming that a paerson who doesn't believe in Jesus and salvation will not go to heaven based on the bible. In scene 2 you claim inability to draw the same conclusion for 500 people who are in the same condition. So there seems to be a contradiction there.


The point I was trying to make is that as Christians I cannot say with certainty where a single person (or a group of people) are going. The only difference in Scenario 1 and 2, is in the former (I hope you don't mind Sadler, using you as an example! :) ) Sadler is asking me that question personally. In Scenario 2, none of those 500 people are asking me that question. But in the event that they did, then my reply to Sadler is the same reply that the 500 people will get. But I still cannot force Sadler or those 500 people to believe anything. What I am pointing out to you, is a matter of faith.

Abhijit wrote:When Bible claims that the salvation is only through Jesus Christ unfortunately the EJ's and most of the Christians take it literally.


Abhijit, that is taken literally. You cannot explain it otherwise. Or at least I cannot say otherwise. My faith says so. However I don't lose sleep at night wondering what is going to happen to the non-believer. One can't pick & choose from the Bible, you accept it as whole.

I'd rather have everyone on this forum angry at me for what I have said above, than face the wrath of God just to please folks here. And I am not taking a holier-than-thou attitude either. I am just telling you what I believe.

But what is wrong is the methods that the Evanjehadists use which is wrong and that practice must be stopped.

Abhijit wrote:I think they should pay more attention to Luke 6:46
Rakesh, I believe the spirit of the bible claims that heaven and salvation is available to those who live by the spirit of bible not to the 'biblical inerrancy' crowd. Again, pl. refer to Luke 6:46


Luke 6:46 says, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" You know Abhijit, that applies to the Christians...as all Christians are guilty of that charge. I cannot commit to 'living by the spirit of the Bible' because I am not sure of the ramifications of that sentence. But I will commit 100% to the inerrancy of the Bible.

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 05:10

Sadler wrote:That seems to be the common refrain of the BRF community. I'd love to know why it is that God did not give wives the good sense to realize that spending time on BRF is a noble pursuit worthy of her forebearance. But such are the ways of God that a few mins taken by BRF-ers to greet visiting Shaheens invite the choicest of rejoinders from SHQ. Well, let it never be said that the path to greatness (or increasing ones' post count on BRF) was easy.


She puts food on my plate....she is of greater importance. I may be Admiral on BRF, but she is the Admiral at home :)

Sadler wrote:Heck, i think BRF should qualify as a religious institution. Have not many a thread been crucified on this forum only to make miraculous resurrections?


Eeeks! No Way! We had a sordid experience once. Shiv is doing a fantastic job of monitoring the two religious threads on this forum. My humble suggestion would be to continue in this manner. Just have one or two threads devoted to religion, where you can vent all your pet peeves about religion and have Shiv do all the Adi Kollus.

Sadler wrote:I am sorry, but am I missing something here. You just said above that "Einstein is not in heaven SIMPLY because he did not believe in JC" Ditto for Gandhi. Did i miss something??


Sadler, I think I may have explained something similar to Pulikeshi and to Abhijit. Both replies are in this thread itself (page 1) and please review them. If you still have questions, please free to ask again. Thanks.

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 05:33

rocky wrote:Since you are a Christian, and from Kerala, and you state that Kerala was Christianised after the arrival of St. Thomas (despite the fact that there is no evidence to the fact that he ever went to India, and there is literally no name for the alleged Hindu king who allowed him into India), I would like to pose a few questions:


I did not see your questions. I am combing through the previous thread and trying to answer all questions posed to me.

rocky wrote:1) Before St. Thomas allegedly came to Kerala, it is obvious that all the people there were Hindu, since that was the only religion in India. Obviously your ancestors were also Hindu at that time. Since they weren't Christian, are you saying that they have the sin and were sent to hell?


Are you trying to get me scorned and hounded off BRF? Just kidding! :) Based on what the Bible says, yes. But please don't shoot me! Please see my reply to Abhijit for further clarification.

rocky wrote:2) How can one lay the blame of a sin on people who didn't even know about it?


Well a Christian believes that all humans (regardless of their geographical location on earth) have the sin of Adam upon them. Thus all will be judged before God. What God does to the unbeliever who has never heard of him is something that God has already taken care of. There is a verse in the Bible and perhaps Pastor TSJones can find it for me. Pastor, without getting into details, do you know which verse I am referring to?

But if this is any solace, rest assured...the nominal Christian will be held to a far greater standard than any other as he/she knew the truth, but yet denied it or did not talk about it. Come on Pastor Jones, find me that verse. It's on the tip of my tongue!

rocky wrote:3) If tomorrow I write a book, and say that it is the text from God himself/herself and everybody must follow this book or they will go to hell, what gives?


I guess that is where faith comes in. What do you want to believe in?

rocky wrote:4) Enormous amounts of evidence has been produced to prove that the earth is several millions of years old, and that life has been here on earth since several million years too. Now if I come across a book that says that the earth is only 8000 years old and anybody who doesn't agree with the book will go to hell, what gives?


Same answer as above. I cannot explain faith logically.
Last edited by Rakesh on 21 Mar 2007 05:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 05:48

Rakesh,

I find this stuff fascinating ... please don't take my comments personally ...

much like how you have honestly answered what you, as a christian, believe in, I too have the obligation to honestly spell out what I believe as a scientist ...

Rakesh wrote:There is only heaven & hell. As for the location of heaven & hell, I don't know.


Rakesh wrote: I cannot explain faith logically.


I have seen this before ... "faith" can be very easily defined as an ability of an individual to compartmentalize his brain into the logical and the illogical/irrational ...

based on ths observation, as a scientist, I am compelled to provide a preliminary classification of "faith" as a neurological disorder ...

I have not seen much research along these lines, but my limited understanding is that "faith" can be easily cured with modern psychotic drugs ...

I mean this all seriousness ...

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Postby SaiK » 21 Mar 2007 05:57

faith by reasoning is more solid than blind faith. In both cases, or any type of faith, can be broken by strong reasoning and breaking up the trust with the believed.

so the reasoning is purely logical, thus proving Science has a higher scope of defeating faith!.

sorry.

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 05:58

I meant to post this earlier when someone had posted about "Krishna experience" ... two of my friends have had this happen to them ...

the first was in India ... I was with him for about 48 hours while he went through some incoherent phase in which he would slip into dancing, then quiet reflective periods, then pure joyous look on his face, then long monologues etc etc ...

a few days after this, he became a Bhakt, started speaking of spirituality and spirituality alone ... the general buzz was that he had what is described as "kundalini jagran", basically getting to first base of spontaneous enlightenment ... he dropped out of college and and I never heard from him again ...

the second one was in the US ... a caucasian friend of mine went through identical symptoms ... one minute he was hearing Mozart in his head, the next he was talking about the universe, the next he was a child crawling about ... I took him to a mental hospital where they essentially declared him a menace to society [I found out that all it takes is two psychiatrists agreeing on this] ... they locked him up ... I saw him two days later and he was all drugged up ... a week later, he was released with a pocketfull of drugs ...

he has never spoken of that experience again ...

I can't say which of the two societies did the right thing ... however, the friend in India came out with the belief that he had gained immensely while the friend in the US felt duped ... his family never forgave me for taking him to the hospital ...

the point of the story is that the west has well established definitions for neurological disorders ... which is why I was curious as to why "faith" escapes that net ...

at the same time, by these definitions, western medicine would have no qualms in declaring all forms of aghoris, sadhus and other "faithfuls" as menace to society ... :shock:
Last edited by Alok_N on 21 Mar 2007 06:10, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Sri K » 21 Mar 2007 06:01

TSJones wrote:
Also, any thoughts on physical location of Hell would be good.


An alternate universe where the laws of physics breakdown. 8) Ed's drawing up an equation right now for ya.


TSJ, you do know that Heaven is Hotter Than Hell, right?

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Postby Sadler » 21 Mar 2007 06:18

Rakesh wrote:
Sadler wrote:I am sorry, but am I missing something here. You just said above that "Einstein is not in heaven SIMPLY because he did not believe in JC" Ditto for Gandhi. Did i miss something??


Sadler, I think I may have explained something similar to Pulikeshi and to Abhijit. Both replies are in this thread itself (page 1) and please review them. If you still have questions, please free to ask again. Thanks.


Sorry, my bad. I did get your viewpoint. I may not agree with it, but like you said, that is what your faith wants/leads you to believe and no one can argue with that. As you also rightly pointed out, only when this "belief" is thrust upon others is that an issue. To that extent, we are perfectly copacetic.

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Postby Kumar » 21 Mar 2007 06:20

Alok,

Since faith is so prevalent amongst humans, why do you think it should necessarily be classified as a disorder? It could be an evolutionary construct with some utility.

I can think of some utility for faith. Especially in situations where answers are not clear cut, it provides some emotional stability. Otherwise very curious humans with enlarged racing brains and no answers for some pressing questions can turn neurotic. Faith is a soothing balm for them.

Nervous system has two kinds of neurotransmitter chemicals, excitatory and inhibitory. Both are required for a healthy human. If inhibitory neurotransmitters dominate one gets into depression, and if excitatory ones dominate then one gets into mania, and if these oscillate then you get bipolar manic-depressive disorder. I can think of faith as an evolutionary mechanism that short circuits some thought processes and mimics inhibitory neurotransmitter action, but only for certain disturbing thoughts which can't be resolved for that person easily. Seen this way, faith is an efficiently directed therapy tailored for a particular individual and to help rein in certain disturbing thoughts. A conventional therapy will be awfully hard to design and administer that can act in the same efficient way faith can.

On the other hand, a hardened faith can also alter a person's worldview to such an extent where it can start impinging on that person's interactions with others and his worldview can get out of touch with reality so much as to start causing harm. In this situation I would agree with you that faith becomes a disorder which would need curing.

Simple religious faith of someone could be harmless for him and others and I also presume it gives him some certainties and leads to a certain peace of mind. In a purely utilitarian sort of way that kind of faith can be useful.

But a faith becomes a disorder when it starts impinging on other people's lives and distorts the reality enough for a person to make him/her either a misfit and a failure in the real world and/or a danger to the world at large. Jihadis of all varieties come to mind here.

In short I would consider a faith that calms a person, stops their agitations and fears, or which mainly acts as a neuro-depressant is quite useful. But if faith leads to excitation, irritation, mania and acts as a neuro-stimulant, then that faith is likely to prove risky for that person and others.
Last edited by Kumar on 21 Mar 2007 06:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 06:22

Sadler wrote:As you also rightly pointed out, only when this "belief" is thrust upon others is that an issue.


is it an issue to the extent that EJ's deserve to be classified as a menace to society and put on a drug regimen that will fix their problem?

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 06:29

Kumar wrote: A conventional therapy will be awfully hard to design and administer that can act in the same efficient way faith can.


my limited reading on psychotic drug research makes me believe that highly specialized drugs are easy to design nowadays ... a cocktails of drugs is the therapy technique ...

On the other hand, a hardened faith can also alter a person's worldview to such an extent where it can start impinging on that person's interactions with others and his worldview can get out of touch with reality so much as to start causing harm. In this situation I would agree with you that faith becomes a disorder which would need curing.


shouldn't society nip potential diseases in the bud?

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Postby Sadler » 21 Mar 2007 06:31

Alok_N wrote:
Sadler wrote:As you also rightly pointed out, only when this "belief" is thrust upon others is that an issue.


is it an issue to the extent that EJ's deserve to be classified as a menace to society and put on a drug regimen that will fix their problem?


I would argue it is, as is evident from the christian terrorist acts in your north east. But that is me. Whether India(ns) decide that it is so, and act on such beliefs is up to you.

As far as i can surmise, the effect of EJs on indian christianism is as corrosive as that of saudi funded mosques in india on indian moslems. The former is a phenomena that at least in my opinion can be nipped in the bud, the latter is long past that stage for reasons more than one.

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Postby Kakkaji » 21 Mar 2007 06:31

ramana wrote:Kakkaji, Go to the thread and hit the printer icon. It will then open in a new thread. Then hit the :II: icon. If using IE go to save and choose web archive mht format. That will save in one big file.


Thanks ramana.

Regards

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Postby Shwetank » 21 Mar 2007 06:31

Alokji, have you read some of the research where there has been an attempt to analyze the behaviour of the prophets and other figures in middle eastern religion, (especially Moha. (PBUH) since his experiances are listed in most detail), using modern pschology and pschychiatric techniques? Apparently many of them would have been declared to have several mental illnesses (well not a surpise I suppose) in today's world. Moh. especially seems to fit descriptions of actual modern day examples of such diseases. Although I still don't place too much weightage on the mental diagnosis of modern medicine (too much estimation and cases like your example where people get declared insane, I mean it's still hard to arrive at a definition of that a lot of great thinkers in history would be considered insane).

Still what it does bring up in my mind is, if you take a few suppositions such as that a person is hallucinating that he is receiving visions from God as a special chosen representative (due to self esteem issues or whatever) or a person wants to achieve some power over others & be leader of cult or do some social engineering and based on only this you make a list characteristics that one would expect in such a person and the possible strategies and ideologies such a person would employ, they end up being uncannily similar to what is listed in the religious literature. In the end it just seems too much like the work of a human and had these things been done in modern times it would certainly be considered as the ramblings of a deluded person.

Which is why I seem to be leaning on a universal truth which everyone can achieve through meditation (although it seems way to hard to achieve and maybe after sitting there for so long and through power of suggestion you really do hallucinate again) as being a bit more sensible than a system where a person is chosen and everyone else must believe that person solely based on that person swearing that he/she is a prophet and also at the same time believe that another person is speaking the talk of the devil even though that other person is also swearing he/she is a prophet while both persons actions and behaviour seems to be equally good or the devil person's might actually be better. I asked this question before and Rakesh said he will reply in e-mail (i'll send one to you shortly) but something which has always nagged me.

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Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2007 06:32

Kakkaji wrote:What's the best way to save the previous thread on my HDD? I don't want to copy paste the individual pages separately.


Use the Printer icon on top of the page and ensure that all replies are displayed on one page.

Then save.

Save yourself before its too late. Repent now. Choose the right path.

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Postby Kakkaji » 21 Mar 2007 06:56

shiv wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:What's the best way to save the previous thread on my HDD? I don't want to copy paste the individual pages separately.


Use the Printer icon on top of the page and ensure that all replies are displayed on one page.

Then save.

Save yourself before its too late. Repent now. Choose the right path.


Shiv:

I already did, with ramana's help.

As for 'repenting now', it is too late for me. I am condemned to burn for eternity in the fires of hell. :P

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Postby Kakkaji » 21 Mar 2007 07:14

In the previous thread, Johann wrote:

Kakkaji,

I liked your point that the integration of marginal groups in India will probably proceed faster than the integration of inner city blacks.

That will probably turn out to be true.


Johann:

There is a practical reason why I threw out that particular challenge to Pastor TSJ.

Re. casteism in India, on the streets, buses, or trains in Indian cities, it is hard to tell a person's caste by looking at him. You can guess economic strata, but not caste. Even guessing by last name is becoming difficult as people often drop caste appellations (sp?). Last names like 'Kumar' and 'Singh' encompass many castes in North India. In many cases people drop last names altogether such as Lalu Prasad. Only people in your ancestral village know what your caste is, and once you are two or three generations away from your ancestral village, nobody can verify.

So, as urbanization and education spreads, and people move away from their ancestral villages for jobs, it will become harder to guess anyone's caste if the person chooses not to reveal it, and caste itself will lose its relevance in an urbanized society. Economic class will be the great dividing factor between Indian people.

African-Americans, however, will still be identifiable by appearance, and will not likely be assimilated by the white society.

JMT


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