Religion Thread - 5

Kumar
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Post by Kumar »

Sandeep, given how swiftly and completely the fires of 80s extinguished, I agree, it seems people deep in their hearts knew.
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Post by SaiK »

RajeshG wrote:Translations, or Travesty of Traditions

by Prof S N Balagangadhara

Tiny URL : http://tinyurl.com/ys8jnl
good article.. but hopefully we continue in the same spirit to read his answers to many questions.. or the better answers we are seeking for countering western -izations.

or is it because of some personal issues, that is hindering the correct projections.. is there something that EJs counter "self esteem", "ego", etc.. that many hindus get jacked up.

I also don't see Valkans, Kumars, Aloks et al deriving to some commandments for Cs and Ds, so that they can take ownerships of hinduism in those commanding spirits.

unless we have an objective to come to such derivations, good threads like these can go to trash and ignored as is happening with hindustanis.
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Post by ramana »

I think Hinduism is not a path dependent integral. There are mulitple ways for the A,B,C,& Ds to reach equanimity. Even the Lord Krishna says so the in the Bhagavat Gita.
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Post by Prem »

S.Valkan wrote:
Abhijit wrote: Those who have unflinching faith are at the least risk of conversion.

I will make a digression, and rake up an example of someone from THIS forum,- Vick.

He claims he has a Hindu mother, and a Christian father, and he chose Christianity over Hinduism.

There could be several reasons for his decision, but the one most likely is that - as a child - his mother could NOT satisfactorily answer his questions about Hindu deities and rituals, while his Christian father ( or the church leaders ) could about theirs.

[quote.
Destroy the Family structure , Destroy the Society thus Destroy the Dharma . By political, monetary patronage gain the critical mass and apply the right blow at right juncture. This is a slow poisoning and weakning .
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Post by abhischekcc »

S.Valkan wrote:If anyone here is adamant that "Bheda" and "BhedaBheda" are the pinnacles of their logical conclusions, or that they are sanguine that the "experience" of Ananda lies BEYOND Ananta, etc, so be it. :lol:
Well if you want to address something to me, you better take my name. It would be more, how should I put this, ... appropriate. :)

Anyway, looks like you missed the point completely. Here is what I had said:
When union if agya chakra and sahatrara takes place, the yogi experiences anant. This state is also identical to Dharana.

And the continuation of this state is anand. And this state is also called Samadhi, the eighth stage of Ashtanga Yog.
So, you see. I have not claimed anand as BEYOND anant. Yet you assumed that that is what I did.

My description of anant and anand is a yogic description.

It is interesting to me that you are using an essentially intellectual construct ("Bheda" and "BhedaBheda") to grasp the experience that is yogic.

It seems to me that you are unable to connect an intellectual description with a experiential one, and are limited to intellectual conception. I suggest you do some Tratak to gain insight.

------------------------

Let's take another example. The Islamic concept of Allah is closest to that of Nirguna brahm. None other than Swami Vivekananda praised Islamic law as being a close approximation of Vedanta.

Does that make Islam that much benevolent? :mrgreen:


The point I am making is - how the hell does a 'scientifically' correct concept of god helps us today , in this world and right now, if that concept is inappropriately understood.

Again it was Swamiji who said that Mohammed was an 'untrained' yogi. IOW, Mohammed did have perception of Him (or conciousness, or whatever), but failed to understand/absorb the experience in the right way. He eventually slipped on the last door that a yogi walks through - ego. And if you look at his life, he does indeed turn into a megalomaniac in the later part of life.
Sri Aurobindo had called Mohammed a vibhuti - that is, one stage below god/avatar.

What happened with Mohammed is that his experience of absolute got transformed into self obsession. Self absorption turned into self obsession.

---------------

At any rate Gyan yog and Vedanta are incomplete philosophies, because they do not have a fully practical side to it. One cannot experience the truth, as expounded by these philosophies, without taking the help of other more practical schools like Yog or Tantra.

Heck, even bhakti cannot survive with out a decent amount of Hatha Yog :mrgreen:
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Post by Alok_N »

SaiK wrote:I also don't see Valkans, Kumars, Aloks et al deriving to some commandments for Cs and Ds, so that they can take ownerships of hinduism in those commanding spirits.
excuse me, but I have!

I just didn't spell them out ... here is a start:

1. Thou shalt learn Newton's Laws.
2. Thou shalt learn Kepler's Laws
3. Thou shalt learn Maxwell's Laws
4. Thou shalt learn 3 Laws of Thermodynamics
5. Thou shalt learn Relativistic Quantum Mechanics
6. Thou shalt learn General Theory of Relativity
7. Thou shalt learn the Standard Model of Particle Physics
8. Thous shalt learn Big Bang Cosmology
9. Thous shalt shun String Theory
10. Thous shalt view Supersymmetry as a hoax

after having done that ...

11. Thou shalt be blessed with Hinduism as an obvious choice ...

8)
Last edited by Alok_N on 30 Mar 2007 00:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SaiK »

I think we need to set our mission objectives for this counter attack.. then derive at commandments for the general class on the street.

Instead of beating around the bush of bajaps and sainiks.. we come up with a bhrat rakshak solution.

I think again, our mission statement has to be a "common civil code" for hindus (forget Xtians and Ms for ever).. if we can achive a CCC, then we can chart for the commandments.
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Post by SaiK »

Alok Ji, those commandments are perfect for Bs., and those veering As.
Last edited by SaiK on 30 Mar 2007 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by svinayak »

S.Valkan wrote:
I have even given a short example of Advaita logic from First Principles, WITHOUT the need for scriptures, in an earlier post, because many here had requested it.

I have no intention of going into another flurry of posts proving why Dvaita and Vishistadvaita concepts are logically indefensible.

They have their own place in the rung of spiritual growth, and are necessary - as Hinduism sees it - for people of different Adhikaritvam ( competency ).
This Dvaita vs Advitha and calling each other indefensible by the other has to end. With the globalized world and predatory sociopolitical movement the Indian social groups created by these two Vedantic philosphy which does not accept the other historically has to end. We have to create a unifying umbrella to make sure that all the social groups are not divided due to philosophical differences.

From history we see there was this segragation(for lack of a better word) of the social groups between Vaishnava vs Shaaiva, Dvaita vs Advaitha etc. By accepting socially all schools under the broader general concept we create a stronger social structure to take on external threats.
Dvaita school referred to as "prachchhanna târkika"; tongue-in-cheek appellate was allegedly affixed by some followers of Advaita, who were piqued at being called "prachchhanna bauddha" (disguised Buddhists). This latter designation was used because of the great similarity between Buddhism and Advaita (both schools do not accept the reality of the universe, both deny that the Creator is an eternal real, etc.). In turn, Advaitins labeled devotees of Srimad Âchârya as "prachchhanna târkika" (disguised logicians) because of the latters' use of logic to show that Advaita is inconsistent.

BTW I come from both the sampradhaya.
Last edited by svinayak on 30 Mar 2007 01:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by S.Valkan »

SaiK wrote:I think we need to set our mission objectives for this counter attack..
Why think of "counter attack" ?

There are more interesting concepts to ponder about.

Why is it that evanjihadis have failed to convert BR forumites posting here ?

Why is it that an increasing number of affluent, educated middle class Americans and Europeans are giving up Christianity, and gradually accepting "New Age" and "Eastern" thoughts, and practices, while poor and disadvantaged Asians and Africans are falling prey to Islam and Christianity ?

Shouldn't that hold a clue as to what appeals to whom, and why ?
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Post by Prem »

SBajwa wrote:Thanks S.Valkan.
by Kumar
Re: the sikh priest "JS Vedanti", every time I saw his name in the news, I used to wonder whether people realize the inner similarities, especially during the 80s.
People do! but economics do not. Punjab in 80's was never a religious issue., but an economic one. Did you see the current issue over SYL canal between Haryana (Ruled by Congress) and Punjab (Akalis and BJP)?
VEDA means Knowledge, especially the Knowledge of Parbrahm. Any Holy Scripture which impart this right Knowledge can be called Veda.
At the core , there is only one Dharma from the beginning , the differneces are only in diverse paths we take. Example is in Guru Teg Bahadur sacrificing himself for the sake of Dharma only . Guru Gobind Singh's remark "dharma Het Saka ..." made this very clear. Its not a co-incidence that followers of Sikhs, Hindus,Budhist, Jains Dharmic paths undestand ,appreciate , celebrate and feel spiritually uplifted by the event while for "malecchas" this is not the case ,at best a political event for them.
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Post by SaiK »

please consider "counter attack" as defensive as possible.. well lets get those words off the discussion. mark it my bad..

there are many aspects and derivations and diversifications to the argument, but it would only lead from one to other, and finally left off..

instead of taking multiple factors, and reasoning it from a "small scope", why not specify a few factors that applies to the whole. if we can find, let us list it out (objectives are important).

i also said, lets forget xtians and other religions and their followers. lets get into a CCC within hinduism.. that we can boast or our children can boast say 50 years from now, that there existed some great Valkans in BR quadrant, who came up with these commandments.
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Post by S.Valkan »

Acharya wrote:This Dvaita vs Advitha and calling each other indefensible by the other has to end.
You misunderstood the concept.

If you are using scriptures, you can always find something that comes close to your position.

Obviously, that doesn't help.

In another venue, the discussion centered around what makes Dvaita appear logical to Dvaitins, without recourse to scripture.

The answer, after about 5 months of discussion ( and Alok N has the best memory of it ), was that Dvaita depends on Sensory Perception, and Advaita on Pure Logic.

Note: I am not saying this. The respected originator of Dvaita-vada, Sri Anandatirtha Madhvacharya himself stated that - outside of scripture - the greatest Pramana is "Nirdosha Artha Indriya Sannikarsham iti Pratyaksham".

Now, if you look at the sky, it appears blue. Around dawn and evening, it appears orange. But we know from logic ( and science ) that it is neither blue, nor orange, but colourless.

Is it due to any "defect" in your vision ? No. So, why depend on "Pratyaksha" as a Pramana when contradicted by logic/Anumana ?

The second difference is the definition of Reality. Not many here - except the hardcore Dvaitins - would object to the concept of Tri-Kala Abadhita Satyam ( uncontradicted anytime anywhere ) as the definition of Truth or Reality.

The third is the Dvaita concept of Svarupa-Bheda ( that Difference constitutes the nature of the object ).

In other words, if there are two objects A and B, then A = Diff ( A, B ) and
B = Diff ( A, B ).

By simple extension, one realizes that this means A = B ( = Diff(A,B ) ), and the whole edifice of difference comes crashing down.

That's why I said logically indefensible.

However, in the broader interest of the forum, I don't intend to get into any more debates on this.
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Post by Aditya_V »

Acharya
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This Dvaita vs Advitha and calling each other indefensible by the other has to end.

BTW I come from both the sampradhaya.

Sorry for moving from the thread, but you are from both the sampradhaya- I guess you have to believe in 1 of the 2. Anyway while i belive in Vaishnavism I guess both belive in the same scriptures and the acrimonious debate should end. But to counter the EJ's who just pour scorn calling us stone worshippers, the concepts of Vaishnavism , Advaita, Shivism etc should be clearly explained as many common hindus don't seem to have any idea about what thier religion is about.
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Post by svinayak »

Aditya Vikrams wrote:
Sorry for moving from the thread, but you are from both the sampradhaya- I guess you have to believe in 1 of the 2. Anyway while i belive in Vaishnavism I guess both belive in the same scriptures and the acrimonious debate should end.
Thank you. I wanted somebody to point this out and hence I said both the schools of thought. 8)
Last edited by svinayak on 30 Mar 2007 04:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Alok_N »

S.Valkan wrote:The answer, after about 5 months of discussion ( and Alok N has the best memory of it ), was that Dvaita depends on Sensory Perception, and Advaita on Pure Logic.
I still get nightmares about it ... just kidding :)

my 10 point program above is child's play compared to that mother of all debates ... I should have saved it ...

folks here are getting restless about this stuff after only the opening round ... so far all that has happened is that basic definitions have been laid out and various members have taken positions on the philosophical map ...

there has been some erratic fire and minor skirmishes ... the *real* debate can only start when battlions start moving ...

surely, each general has some Brahmastra/nukes that is being saved in the back pocket ...

[sorry, but discussing philosophy on a military forum necessitates such terminology ... ]
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Post by S.Valkan »

abhischekcc wrote:It seems to me that you are unable to connect an intellectual description with a experiential one, and are limited to intellectual conception. I suggest you do some Tratak to gain insight.

At any rate Gyan yog and Vedanta are incomplete philosophies, because they do not have a fully practical side to it. One cannot experience the truth, as expounded by these philosophies, without taking the help of other more practical schools like Yog or Tantra.
So be it.

Since you have such a conviction, I dare not say anything to you.
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Post by Abhijit »

many common hindus don't seem to have any idea about what thier religion is about.
At the risk of sounding repetitively moronic, why does it matter that in your opinion millions of Hindus don't 'seem' to have any idea of what their religion is? For 99 % of the christians christianity boils down to the following simple things:
- going to church, listening to sermons, donating to 'good' causes that may include subverting some third world country's political and social system
- blindly believing in the 'logical' supremacy of a book of doubtful provenance and claiming the sanction of that book for actions ranging from angelic to demonic.
- blindly attacking anybody who even comes close to questioning the illogical nature of any of the above.
- faithfully believing that because of their faith they are destined for heaven and they are on God's side or god is on their side.
For millions of Hindus Hinduism boils down to:
- going to temple, carrying out personal rituals, donating to temples money that may be expropriated for purposes we know nothing about
- blindly believing in the supremacy of Hindu thought and philosophy and not caring for justification of actions ranging from angelic to demonic
- impotently moaning about the continued attack on their faith by various entities real or imagined
- faithfully believing that their actions in this life were predetermined by a previous life or will have effect on the next life.
99% of Hindus do follow this routine and remain Hindus and will remain Hindus even if they can't link their rituals to dvaita or advaita or whatever.
As far as I am concerned their understanding of faith is no less or no less shaky or susceptible to EJ's etc.
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Post by S.Valkan »

Alok_N wrote:
my 10 point program above is child's play compared to that mother of all debates ... I should have saved it ...

the *real* debate can only start when battlions start moving ...
Don't worry. I have no intention of an encore. :eek:
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Post by Alok_N »

SaiK wrote:Alok Ji, those commandments are perfect for Bs., and those veering As.
I think that the A,B, C classification has gone way far beyond what was intended in that example ...

IMO, every kid born in India (or, elsewhere for that matter) is perfectly capable of employing Logic to appreciate philosophy ... all that the kid needs is a proper education in the 3 R's and then a decent exposure to science ...

Hence, my rant about science ... "protecting" Hindu thought in India is no different from educating the kids ...
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Post by S.Valkan »

Abhijit wrote: At the risk of sounding repetitively moronic, why does it matter that in your opinion millions of Hindus don't 'seem' to have any idea of what their religion is?
Two reasons.

1) Gullible sections of Hindus are at the wrong end of the 'conversion' stick, and the conversion attempt(s) is(are) specifically tailored around the nature of their gullibility.

2) If you don't understand the value of a golden egg in your pocket, what difference does it make to you if someone offers to exchange it for an edible poultry egg ?
99% of Hindus do follow this routine and remain Hindus and will remain Hindus
Is that conjecture based on premonition, or factual evidence ?
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Post by Alok_N »

Abhijit wrote:For millions of Hindus Hinduism boils down to:

- going to temple, carrying out personal rituals, donating to temples money that may be expropriated for purposes we know nothing about

- blindly believing in the supremacy of Hindu thought and philosophy and not caring for justification of actions ranging from angelic to demonic

- impotently moaning about the continued attack on their faith by various entities real or imagined

- faithfully believing that their actions in this life were predetermined by a previous life or will have effect on the next life.

99% of Hindus do follow this routine and remain Hindus and will remain Hindus even if they can't link their rituals to dvaita or advaita or whatever.
forget millions ... let's start by asking how many Hindus here on this board will characterize themselves as belonging to that 4-point description ...

for starters, I assume that you are one such person ...

let's have folks step forward and be counted ... let's see how far the count goes ... if not, let's not have this "millions of Hindus" or "99% of Hindus" stuff ...

let's give credit to other humans that they do indeed have minds capable of contemplation ...

you may not have been one of them, but what I saw on this thread was a deep appreciation of Valkan's effort ...

if folks are 4-pointers, why would they pay attention to any of it?
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Post by Rony »

Kumar wrote:All dharmic religions (hinduism, sikhism, buddhism, jainism) have a strong similarity in the core, even though exteriors show variations.
Question to the gurus.Of all the dharmic religions why did only sikhism made a determined effort to move away from Hinduism.Buddhists and jains also dont consider themselves Hindus,but unlike sikhs they did not resort to voilence islam style.Is it something to do with islamic influence of sikhism or is it to do with khalsa thing within sikhism.If its islam thing,then is it an example of oxymoron considering that sikhism was born as a bhakti Hindu sect reaction against islam but today at least some sikhs of khalistani type try to mould it into a islamic copy cat with gurus becoming "prophets" and bhakti sikhism becoming "monotheistic" sikhism ! and if its the khalsa thing that led to sikhism developing seperatist tendencies then again how do we explain that khalsa order was developed as a reaction to islamic imperialism but today khalistani sikhs are moulding it as an reaction to imagined "Hindu fascism" ! is there any effort from the sikhs to reclaim back this distorted image from the khalistani types using sikh religious scriptures ?
Kumar wrote:the sikh priest "JS Vedanti", every time I saw his name in the news, I used to wonder whether people realize the inner similarities, especially during the 80s.
when js vendanti was appointed as akal thakt,the seperatist lobby of akali dal of simranjit singh mann made a hue and cry about j.s.vedanti's "hindu" name origins and demanded him to be sacked.and the suprising thing was vedanti bowed to the pressure and had a special press conferance to prove how "devoute sikh" he was and how proud he was to be a sikh and as if devote sikh means anti-hindu, he started abusing "castist and brahmanical" hinduism !
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Post by Sadler »

shiv wrote:
.......does this make the Idol Worshipping Hindu

a) a violent reactionary?
b) a Hindu fundamentalist?
c) a Hindu revivalist?
d) an enemy of secularism?
According to at least one BRF-er, it makes the IWH and the non-IWJ
a) a bigot
b) most intolerant person on the forum
c) separatist
d) fool
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Post by Bade »

IMO, every kid born in India (or, elsewhere for that matter) is perfectly capable of employing Logic to appreciate philosophy ... all that the kid needs is a proper education in the 3 R's and then a decent exposure to science ...
Very true. Without any exposure to sanskrit stotras or high brow analysis seen here even a simpleton like me was able to appreciate all this before entering college. I am really surprised at the ignorance of more esteemed BRFites in such philosophical matters. :)

I lived through a year of boarding school run by the church at a very young age ( 10yrs old) all alone and should have been easily netted by blind faith. We all were forced to do Sunday morning ceremonies and prayers twice daily. This included hindu and moslem kids too. It had no change of heart in me for sure, I honed all my rational skills during this difficult period of loneliness as a child among the bigger bullies of that small world. Even forced a vegetarian diet specially made only for me by making use of the simple principle of disobedience under pressure. Very soon even had the Father converted to the same diet in due course, due to medical reasons.
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Post by SBajwa »

Buddhists and jains also dont consider themselves Hindus,but unlike sikhs they did not resort to voilence islam style.
No! Sikhs resort to violence of Krishna, Ramchandara and Prithvi style., i.e Instead of Jihad it is Dharam Yuddh.
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

SBajwa wrote:
Buddhists and jains also dont consider themselves Hindus,but unlike sikhs they did not resort to voilence islam style.
No! Sikhs resort to violence of Krishna, Ramchandara and Prithvi style., i.e Instead of Jihad it is Dharam Yuddh.
Yes indeed.
Pl. see quote from KPS Gill
"Democracy and liberalism are not a sufficient defence and this is a fact that the ideologues of ‘freedom’ need, equally, to comprehend. There is a fatal flaw in the liberal mind. Having established, in structure and form [though seldom in substance], a system of governance that corresponds to its conception of democracy, it feels that nothing more needs to be done. The ‘Truths’ of the liberal ideology are, as the American Declaration on the Rights of Man expresses it, ‘Self Evident’. They require no proof, no reiteration, and no defence - certainly no defence by force of arms. Once democracy [or even the ritual of quinquinneal elections] is established, according to liberal mythology, the mystical ‘invisible hand’ keeps everything in place; the ‘superior wisdom of the masses’ ensures order and justice...

This is just so much rubbish. As we should know after living with falsehoods for fifty years now. Truth does not triumph; unless it has champions to propound it, unless it has armies to defend it."

Punjab: The Knights of Falsehood
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPS_Gill
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Post by Rony »

SBajwa wrote:
Buddhists and jains also dont consider themselves Hindus,but unlike sikhs they did not resort to voilence islam style.
No! Sikhs resort to violence of Krishna, Ramchandara and Prithvi style., i.e Instead of Jihad it is Dharam Yuddh.
Dharam Yudh is NOT jihad.Jihad is fighting for religion while Dharma Yudh is for fighting so that the laws of universe are not disturbed.When you equate Dharma with religion, you are making a grave error .

Can you explain what do you mean by "voilence of krishna ,ramachandra and prithvi stye" !
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Post by Abhijit »

Valcan:
1) Gullible sections of Hindus are at the wrong end of the 'conversion' stick, and the conversion attempt(s) is(are) specifically tailored around the nature of their gullibility.

2) If you don't understand the value of a golden egg in your pocket, what difference does it make to you if someone offers to exchange it for an edible poultry egg ?
So in your opinion the ritualistic celebration of 99% Hindus is gullibility? I detect an insecurity in your argument that maybe YOU do not feel that the way most of the Hindus observe their faith is logically defensible against the onslaught of 'logical' EJ'ism.
You are trying to claim that what is in my pocket (which i claim to be same as 99% Hindus) is not perceived as golden egg by us? What gives you the authority to arrogate yourself such knowledge/opinion ? What you have in your pocket is, I freely admit, a platinum egg or an iridium egg but you are (IMHO) doing a disservice to those of us who believe that our simplistic faith is golden in itself - certainly against the rotten egg being peddled by others.
99% of Hindus do follow this routine and remain Hindus and will remain Hindus


Is that conjecture based on premonition, or factual evidence ?
What factual evidence? Are you asking for factual evidence for a prognosis of future? Sounds illogical to me. But for the sake of argument, it is my conjecture, premonition and belief (faith). Christians are not the only ones with a monopoly on faith.
Alok:
let's start by asking how many Hindus here on this board will characterize themselves as belonging to that 4-point description ...
Maybe it is my limited sample but I have yet to come across a Hindu who confessed that his/her belief in the superiority of Hindu philosophy is somehow weaker than Christians. I am yet to meet a hindu who cliamed that christian or muslim belief system is superior to Hindu system. There was a rev. Tilak who converted in the late 19th century. but he couldn't convert anybody other than his wife - and ironically his wife converted as she considered it her Dharma to convert. Have I met people who have converted ? yes. I am also aware that there is a vast swathe of so-called weaker sections in various NE states, Ap etc. who have converted. It is my belief and studied opinon that those conversions took place as a result of disenchantment and enticement - not because of weakness of Hindu thought.
let's give credit to other humans that they do indeed have minds capable of contemplation ...

you may not have been one of them, but what I saw on this thread was a deep appreciation of Valkan's effort ...

if folks are 4-pointers, why would they pay attention to any of it?
I freely admit that valcan's knowledge is outstanding in the subject and I have absolutely no fundas in this regard. I too have a very high regard for what he has written. For your info, I do consider myself to be one of those hindus that follow the 4 point program i mentioned. That does not preclude me from respecting those who have a much higher understanding of Hindu philosophy.
I may not understand (in fact i do not) the dvaita and advaita but I do understand a little bit about markets and customers. If there is market for a commercial glorification of what you seem to consider crass (that is my reading of your opinion and apologies if it is wrong) ritualistic observance of Hindu dharma then the marketer in me would like to utillize it to the hilt. I am interested in sociopolitical ascendence of Hindus and I firmly belive that a metaphysical or spiritual message such as valcan's is either wrong way or too early to go about it.
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Post by Kumar »

Rony, please let the 80s be. However traumatic that period may have been, the actual number of deaths was miniscule, and only a small number of people were involved in actual violence. It can't be compared to a jihad, even by the longest streatch of the imagination. No lasting damage has been done to sikhism, hinduism or India. In fact going by recent elections, sikhs and hindus have voted together for many candidates.

When SBajwa says violence of Krishna, Rama etc he means violence in the cause of dharma.
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Post by SaiK »

Alok.. I understand.. kids education is very important.. but what do you to millions of parents who are illiterates.. those are the targets for EJs. If you wish to ignore those parents who are already classified, then also ignore this post.

If as you say, everything could be answered thru science for these folks, then so be it!.. but have you thought about the fact that those millions can understand science?

We are getting lost into exclusivity, and ignoring the large average kinds. yes, its not from the angle of castizations, but from the angle of their assumed existence that they have to be such... cause its given and lived such a way for a while..perhaps mutated.

what are the rules for them? its definitely not science. of course, you or valkan can make them nod.. but, they would go and do the same.

understanding them also should be inclusive in the larger "understanding".
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Post by Prem »

Rony wrote:
SBajwa wrote: No! Sikhs resort to violence of Krishna, Ramchandara and Prithvi style., i.e Instead of Jihad it is Dharam Yuddh.
Dharam Yudh is NOT jihad.Jihad is fighting for religion while Dharma Yudh is for fighting so that the laws of universe are not disturbed.When you equate Dharma with religion, you are making a grave error .

Can you explain what do you mean by "voilence of krishna ,ramachandra and prithvi stye" !
Rony,
What is the problem If Some Sikhs want to keep distance and separate identity and you cannot equate Khalistani political movement with the essence of Sikh Dharma. Equating the conduct of a Sikh to Islamic behaviour is great error of judgement and very unthoughtful remark.
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Post by Rony »

Kumar wrote:Rony, please let the 80s be. However traumatic that period may have been, the actual number of deaths was miniscule, and only a small number of people were involved in actual violence. It can't be compared to a jihad, even by the longest streatch of the imagination. No lasting damage has been done to sikhism, hinduism or India. In fact going by recent elections, sikhs and hindus have voted together for many candidates.
Kumar, I am in no way want to hurt sikh sentiments.Since we are having a religion debate, i was curious to know the reasons for why did some people in the 80s hijacked sikhism and converted it into a islamic copycat ? is that sikhism has something inbuilt in its philosphy or theology that allowed it to be hijacked the way it happened or is it something else.
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Post by Rony »

Prem wrote: What is the problem If Some Sikhs want to keep distance and separate identity and you cannot equate Khalistani political movement with the essence of Sikh Dharma. Equating the conduct of a Sikh to Islamic behaviour is great error of judgement and very unthoughtful remark.
There is no problem if some sikhs want to keep distance and seperate identity from hinduism,but the problem arises when they use voilence to do that and in the process denigrate Hinduism to prove their seperateness.isntn that what happened in the past? How can you explain the moulding of sikhism into a islamic copy cat by khalistanis with all the prophets and eveything ! It is not outsiders who are trying to equate sikh to islamic behaviour,its the sikhs themselves of khalistani bent who are doing it.Do you meant to say that khalistanis are not sikhs ?
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Post by Prem »

Rony,
You saying Khalistani represent Sikh Dharma , teachings of the Gurus and SGGS. Can you quote any thing from Gurus or Granth teachings to support your accusation ?
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Post by SaiK »

class A,B,C,d.. has not been abolished .. it is not so easy to obolish even thru science. Science can't even reason out why they are A, B, c..etc (perhaps can do a "how?".
Hence, given current situation, the only goal from A's stand point of view would be a "Unified Theory" - perhaps many Aloks & Valkans can work on that.
for Bs, need many Valkans and Kumars needs lots of research and specialize on those unified theory, and create more fundemental theorems or commandments
for Cs and Ds..

for example:-
Alok & Valkan : 1. Thou shalt learn Newton's Laws.
Valkan & Kumars : Converts them into Karmic Laws.
Kumars & bala-kumars : Do's & Don'ts List.

Then people like me and the Cs, Ds, could take these list and implement it. practice it and give a feed back., and perhaps correct misunderstandings at
Newton's level..
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Post by Kumar »

Rony wrote: Kumar, I am in no way want to hurt sikh sentiments.Since we are having a religion debate, i was curious to know the reasons for why did some people in the 80s hijacked sikhism and converted it into a islamic copycat ? is that sikhism has something inbuilt in its philosphy or theology that allowed it to be hijacked the way it happened or is it something else.
Rony, please look up the role of Zia-ul-Haq (a true bred Asura IMO) during that period. It was Pakistan govt which was the power behind a lot of disgruntled sikh youth who resorted to violence. It wasn't a simple sikh versus hindu affair. A large part of it was Zia-ul-Haq's scheme to avenge 1971 defeat by turning the sikhs against India.
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Post by Alok_N »

Abhijit wrote:Maybe it is my limited sample but I have yet to come across a Hindu who confessed that his/her belief in the superiority of Hindu philosophy is somehow weaker than Christians.


that was only one point out of four that you posted ...

I have no problems with your personal beliefs ... I was objecting to this 99% characterization ...

even in response to Valkan above, you have injected the 99% when all he said was the "gullible section" ...

don't we need to be a bit more considered about assiigning percentages?
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Post by SaiK »

Example 2:

Class : Rule

A: "The Orbit of every planet is an ellipse with the sun at one of the foci"(Kepler 1)
B: "The Pradakshina is an ellipse with the Lord at one foci (his vahan on the other)"
C: "Pradakshina must be clockwise, 3, 18, 108 times"
D: "Must do Pradikshna for Peace"
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Post by Abhijit »

even in response to Valkan above, you have injected the 99% when all he said was the "gullible section" ...

don't we need to be a bit more considered about assiigning percentages?
My reference for assigning % is empirical and mixed with historical. For over a thousand years the Hindu Dharma was under attack but survived within the borders of present day India with over 80% retention rate. I do not believe that it did so based on a spiritual knowledge disseminated to the masses - if you can prove otherwise, I will revise my theories. It survived on ritualistic observances by 99% (that percentage again!) of its followers. When it was under attack from Buddhism through a logical discourse, the great Shankaracharya rescued it with Valcan-like wisdom and knowledge. Today's challenge is not based on logic and philosophy - it is commercial and sociopolitical in nature. So I continue to believe that it needs to be fought with the right tool - a dissemination of the supreme truth as understood by Valcans of the world is imho not the way to fight this battle.
When you are fighting faith, it doesn't make sense to fight it with logic - I learned it and numerous exchanges (such as with with Rakesh) reinforced it. The only way is to glorify our faith. VHP's earliest campaign was 'garv se kaho hum Hindu hai'. We must glorify our faith as it is being practiced today by millions of Hindus like me who don't have a spiritual or metaphysical grounding.
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