Religion Thread - 6

pradeepe
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Postby pradeepe » 31 Mar 2007 00:49

S.Valkan wrote:[
However, if you think carefully, the operative clause is "know".

How do you know anything when your mind is blank, and no thoughts arise ?

You have to understand that both "I" and "God" are thoughts.

If no thoughts exist, how can "I am God" be known ?


Thanks. Can the operative "know" mean "realization" (and its very likely I dont understand "realization" very well )

The reason I said that is to refer to the supposed moving in and out of "dharana". Again in my understanding, "Dharana" = a state of complete stillness of the mind.

So maybe they are not at the same instant in time.

Or maybe I am so far into the "me head hurts" state :).
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Postby svinayak » 31 Mar 2007 00:50

Vishy_mulay wrote: Every time I heard something bad about SD, my gut reaction used to be whats wrong with us?

Now my first question who will benefit from this defamation of SD.


You have decolonised your mind.

Watch a movie called THE ISLAND (2005)

You are like the Lincoln Six-Echo and Jordan Two-Delta in the movie.
Everybody should watch this movie.

Also watch the Pink Floyd music video - Another Brick in the Wall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gszKw78lBgE
Last edited by svinayak on 31 Mar 2007 01:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby svinayak » 31 Mar 2007 00:55

S.Valkan wrote:
So, instead of blaming EJs and LJs( Left-jihadis ), why not raise the knowledge level of the Hindu society ?

Expose them to science/logic, and challenge them to prove the conclusions of Hinduism wrong, scientifically/logically. :)

After that, see what the Left-jihadis can do!

With due respect. This is too simplistic. This is what our elders used to say 30-50 years ago. In the age of mass media, mass education and propaganda in the marketplace of Ideas it is a weak solution.

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 00:56

Valkan, when I read your post, "the cup" form existed or still in existence(now) in my "thoughts".. a thought about a past event (breaking of the cup). so "cup" form did not dissolve completely in my thoughts..(sure it got dissolved by the thought that represented the event).

hence thought is necessary to understand.. also, if you are talking matter(atomic particles), that existed in the past, present and the future in different forms, is only realized by the thought -> related to time. hence taking "thought" away, means the "experiences" is taken away as well. how can one experience something whole, without thought. hence, i fail to understand timelessness.

I am still murkh here.

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 01:05

SaiK wrote:how can one experience something whole, without thought. hence, i fail to understand timelessness.


I am not sure what your question is, or if you are correctly following the substance of the previous posts.

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 01:09

pradeepe wrote:Can the operative "know" mean "realization" (and its very likely I dont understand "realization" very well )


How will you "realize" something if your analytical process (thoughts) is not working ?

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 01:46

S.Valkan wrote:
SaiK wrote:how can one experience something whole, without thought. hence, i fail to understand timelessness.


I am not sure what your question is, or if you are correctly following the substance of the previous posts.


ok.. had some interpretation problems.. since I was thinking nothing exists without "time", that includes "thought".. and in my understanding, that it was an agreed understanding that "brahman" is itself a "thought" process, that is kept alive by humans onlee.

your saying, since the concept is valid for all times, hence timeless. ok. my bad.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 31 Mar 2007 01:53

Valkanji, I need some book on Vedic philosophy to fall back and cite to prove Ejs AND Ljs wrong. Problem is no one (including my father who is proficient in Sanskrit) bothered to teach me my linguistic heritage to cite the original. The interpretations I read are not as logically deducted as you can do. Please write the book so that decolonised minds like me can cite something.
SaiK thanks.

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 02:11

Vishy_mulay wrote:Problem is no one ... bothered to teach me my linguistic heritage to cite the original.


That's the crux of the issue - no-one bothers to teach the children the heritage, and then they complain about Leftists and Evanjihadis taking advantage of this lacuna.

But - don't get me wrong - who taught you to defend your dissertation without a problem ?

You applied your mind with passion and intent, because it was important enough for you.

What prevents you from doing the same with your heritage ?

I need some book on Vedic philosophy to fall back and cite to prove Ejs AND Ljs wrong.


There are plenty of books already.

Once you understand the basics, you can build your own castle brick by brick.

I did the same.

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Postby svinayak » 31 Mar 2007 02:14

S.Valkan wrote:
Vishy_mulay wrote:Problem is no one ... bothered to teach me my linguistic heritage to cite the original.


That's the crux of the issue - no-one bothers to teach the children the heritage, and then they complain about Leftists and Evanjihadis taking advantage of this lacuna.

I want to change the textbook I am reading . Can I change it or Can I get political power so that I can change the textbook.

What will I be called If I change my textbook?

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Postby Prem » 31 Mar 2007 02:17


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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 02:21

Acharya wrote:I want to change the textbook I am reading . Can I change it or Can I get political power so that I can change the textbook.

What will I be called If I change my textbook?


What does the textbook say that you don't hear from a Southern Baptist or Jehovah's Witness accosting you on the street ?

I read the same textbooks as you did.

What makes me any less vulnerable than you ?

BTW, when the textbook controversy crops up, the strategy should be to factually prove the objectionable parts wrong, instead of complaining about lack of political power.

How many are willing to take the pains of doing that ?

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Postby Kakkaji » 31 Mar 2007 02:26

I watched a part of a TV program yesterday on PBS about Jewish history (was surprised to learn that the Jews practiced polytheism until the 5th century BC or so and that Ashura(sp?) was the female consort of Yahweh).

What the scholars on the program said was that to understand Jesus' life and his teachings in the right context, you have to understand Judaism as it existed in the first century.

It was a time of great turmoil in Judea, what with the Roman occupation and oppression, and Judaism was in ferment, with a number of competing ideas emerging about how Judaism was to survive and go forward. These competing ideas ranged from those advocating violent revolution, to those advocating extreme ritualism, to those advocating extreme asceticism and self-denial. Preaching these were several sects often at loggerheads with each other (sounds familiar doesn’t it?).

Jesus’ message borrowed heavily from the doctrine propounded by the uber-Pharissee Hillel(sp?), whose core message was “Treat others as you would have them treat youâ€

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Postby svinayak » 31 Mar 2007 02:26

S.Valkan wrote:How many are willing to take the pains of doing that ?


I have taken the pain. Have you? Just a question no offense intendant.

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Postby svinayak » 31 Mar 2007 02:30

[quote="Kakkaji"]

That is why I laugh when TSJ goes on like a broken record on this thread about “Dalits/ Tribals/ Untouchabilityâ€

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Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2007 02:36

Kakkaji about a month ago I posted the Non Western World View -2 thread :
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Posted: 22 Feb 2007 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been reading "A History of Christianity, Vol I, Beginings to 1500" by Kenneth Latourette, Yale, "Medieval civilization" Jaques LeGoff, Paris and books of that nature. What strikes me is that to understand Europe one needs to understand Christianity. To understand Christianity one needs to understand Judaism, ancient Greek thought process as it is an amalgam of those two. And to understand Judaism one has to also understand ancient persia and the Middle Eastern theogny. So its quite a daunting task and could take up a life time.

However one can see that progress in recent times, say last 500 years came about because of the progression of movements- reformation, enlightenment, positivism, modernism etc. All these did was to de-root Christianity.

Secularism was a way for the native Europeans to keep Caesar and Church separate even though that was the advise that Jesus gave.

My point is that secularism is needed to keep the religion and state separate. It is not to be irreligious or atheist nor does it apply when there is a tolerant religion. This total control of citizenry by religions is a very Middle Eastern issue that was taken to an extreme by the Church. The changes we see are a result of the awakening in the people of a desire to live better now than hereafter.

More later...

The points that you raise are very important. The reasons are the political nature of the Roman takeover of Jesus teachings. The gospels exonerate the Roman role in his murder. And Islam follows from this version of political religion.

Read the early Church fathers and the rules they came up with.

I took the liberty of bolding some parts of your post. Each of them deserves a reply.

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 02:50

Acharya wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:

That is why I laugh when T


...psy warriors.


"They Are That They Are"

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 02:55

[quote="Kakkaji"]That is why I laugh when TSJ goes on like a broken record on this thread about “Dalits/ Tribals/ Untouchabilityâ€

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 03:00

Valkan, what about TN. It has the most "atheists" in the world!. imho. many atheists are EJs easy target.. and most of these atheists are in fact given up on religion not because of religious reasons, but because of religion did not help them grow. please think socializm for these guys.. and they expect everything from the govt and gawd to give them things.

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Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 03:02

S.Valcan wrote:How do you know anything when your mind is blank, and no thoughts arise ?

There are two kinds of knowing. When mind is in deep sleep state, nothing is known. The opposite to this is knowing through mind (aka ego or small I/self/individual) in wakeful and dream states. This kind of knowing is common experience of all living beings. This is the nature of individual being (not just humans) bound by delusion called maya/mind.

It is said that in the fourth (turiya) state of realized sages(note the oxymoron language, there is only One experiencer not multiple individuals though there may be multiple physical forms), mind/maya doesn't exist, but everything is known. This knowing is universal conciousness and is referred to as realization. This is not an intellectual thing, but an experience beyond everything mind/small I/self/individual can comprehend. This universal consiousness is called Brahmam or Atman or big I/Self or God or Allah or Holy Father or whatever name given to It.

The problem is except for a select few (note oxymoron), no one has experienced This. No amount of vedic study/intellectual discussion will lead to It. It has to be taken on faith and followed through the paths pointed to by the realized ones(note oxymoron) to eventually get It. Faith doesn't mean devoid of basis, but based on extraordinary personal experiences one gets in life. There is no easy way to prove those to others, hence would be called faith.

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Postby Kakkaji » 31 Mar 2007 03:02

S.Valkan wrote:I don't understand the outrage.

Why should you deny that there is a problem of caste-based discrimination in Hindu society ( although the problem is less severe than it used to be, and varies widely from region to region ) ?


I am not denying it.

We must fix it, and we shall fix it. We are, slowly but surely, fixing it.

My outrage is against the Europeans/ Christians engaging in pot calling the kettle black. All I am saying is that, at our levels of education and economic growth, the European/ Christian 'holier than thou-ers' engaged in far more inhuman practices. So there is no need for us to accept cr@p flung at us by them. We shall clean our own house, let them manage theirs.

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 03:07

kakkaji, is it possible to ignore them, and do our cleanings.. that is not wrong. lets make it white, so that we come in no comparison to being the kettle.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 31 Mar 2007 03:09

Valkanji, I have no qualms in accepting that I should take more efforts to learn my own heritage and I am trying. Problem is I have late start and Sanskrit is not easy to learn (lame excuse). Rather than making an individual effort as you are suggesting, I want to concentrate on all SDF. Everyone will not be as keen to learn about their heritage with logical deductions as you do nor everyone will have liberty to spend extra time in laboriously learning Vedic heritage. Does that mean they should not be exposed to their cultural heritage? Does it mean that this knowledge is only for selected few? Someone mentioned about Bhakti marg in Maharashtra. If the saints would have thought like you, they would have never preached. But they did because they wanted the common man to follow his/her cultural heritage. They never said well if you want, you can learn about your heritage yourself just try hard. Don't take my criticism personally. But I really get irritated when learned people like you do not think that its their responsibility for future generations to pass on knowledge gained in simple language that future generations can understand (good example is Dnyaneshwari, Marathi translation of Gita by Saint Dnyaneshwar).

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 03:12

Kakkaji wrote:We must fix it, and we shall fix it. We are, slowly but surely, fixing it.


That's the correct attitude.

Clench your teeth in grim determination, and fix the damn thing.

So there is no need for us to accept cr@p flung at us by them. We shall clean our own house, let them manage theirs.


Throwing stones back at their glass houses will not help you!

Smile, wipe the cr@p off, and build your own brick house first.

And then, if they fling cr@p again, you know what to throw back. :lol:

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 03:15

uh ho! valkan ji.. don't throw brick at the cr@p.. unless u r willing to share the spills. :lol:

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 03:31

sivab wrote:It is said that in the fourth (turiya) state of realized sages, mind/maya doesn't exist, but everything is known. This knowing is universal conciousness and is referred to as realization.


I see.

Who said it ? :lol:

And you believe it on 'faith', right ?

So where does the mind go ? On a vacation to the Bahamas ?
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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 03:32

sivab wrote:
S.Valcan wrote:How do you know anything when your mind is blank, and no thoughts arise ?
There are two kinds of knowing.


sivab.

with that distinction, you also wipe out the distinction between Hindu thought and any other thought/religion ...

if the "experience of Truth" by a "select few" is the sum total of evidence/argument, then religion proliferation can not be stopped ...

how in essence would you differentiate between a Rishi type who claimed having seen things versus a Rastafarai dude who smoked something good and claimed having seen things ...

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 03:36

Vishy_mulay wrote:Problem is I have late start and Sanskrit is not easy to learn (lame excuse).


IMO, knowing Sanskrit is good but not essential ...

ultimately, it is about contemplation ... all the words in the world, whether they are in Sanskrit or Swahili, will not help unless one contemplates ...

in essence, do some Chintam, not pathati, pathatah, pathantam ... :)

put another way, if the Absolute were limited to Sanskrit, then it would not be the Absolute ...

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 03:38

Alok_N wrote:how in essence would you differentiate between a Rishi type who claimed having seen things versus a Rastafarai dude who smoked something good and claimed having seen things ...


This is the problem with Neo-Vedanta that is being peddled by the untrained people, along with other such nonsense like OM being the "primordial vibration".

Unless young people are disabused of such illogical claims, Hinduism would just be another mass-market "faith".

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Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 03:45

Dearest Kakkaji or whoever you are:

[i]
That is why I laugh when TSJ goes on like a broken record on this thread about “Dalits/ Tribals/ Untouchabilityâ€

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 03:56

TSJones wrote:Maybe you can tell them how atoms are made of energy and Hinduism is at the forefront of scientific thought. That is sure to make them feel better.


neither will telling them that "the lack of a fire-extinguisher on a mountain top spawned a religion" help them ...

why do you mix economic realities with religion? ... why can't your charitable actions also respect that the person you are helping needs water, not jesus?

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Postby Pulikeshi » 31 Mar 2007 03:56

TSJones wrote:Maybe you can tell them how atoms are made of energy and Hinduism is at the forefront of scientific thought. That is sure to make them feel better.


Well said! As long as we spake Meta-Physics onlee and do not understand the needs and desires of society as a whole, we are not on the Dharmic path.

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 03:57

TSJones wrote:I don't know why you thnk the tribals and dalits religious needs are funny. They are not funny. They need help. Education and medical clinics where they can get first aid is very important you know? Maybe they would like a water well instead of having to walk three miles to get a jar of water? They probably don't have these things. Telling them, "tough luck, you have to wait until we Hindus get our act together" is a little unfair don't you think?

Maybe you can tell them how atoms are made of energy and Hinduism is at the forefront of scientific thought. That is sure to make them feel better.


what has the EJs done yet so far... in terms of giving them education, first aid, health services, potable water, etc..? do you have the list?

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 31 Mar 2007 03:58

TSJones,
Have you been to any of the tribal/semi-tribal area in India? Do you think their religious needs are something different which only Ejs can fulfilled? Do you think giving medical aid to tribal only if they accept Jesus and if they don't letting them die of want of medication is the true way Jesus showed? Using money and coercion to convert rather than true acceptance of faith is what Jesus preached? To this end demonising everything these peoples identity is a fair game? If you think these are valid questions well we can discuss something. Till then please don't pretend that you understand more about dalit and tribals of India than people who have lived or worked for them.
I dont know about you, but having talked with few fine specimens, I don't think you have contemplated why you care so much about tribals if it was not for a religious issue.

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 03:58

for the gurus, what is the meaning of:

YA nirvritis thanu bruthAm thava pAda padma dhyAnAth bhavat jana kathA
sravaNEna vA syAth
SA brahmaNi svamahimanyapi nAtha mA bhooth kim thvantakAsi lulithAth
pathathAm vimAnAth


thanks

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Postby Pulikeshi » 31 Mar 2007 04:01

Going back to Shiv's point about things that we may have lost:

This article should make the geniuses of Enron who came up with weather derivative blush. Wonder how many chalu farmer could have benefited rather than having to commit suiside because they could not hedge their odds. Seems like we inherited some EJ values without even questioning if they are Dharmic. :twisted:

Guess who came up with weather derivative before them :mrgreen:

It's time for rain gambling

D. Murali

Did you know that there was a time when rain gambling was a popular sport.

IT is on a rainy day that we seek alternative pastimes, such as getting wet and drying up, or going for a snack of pakodas with tea, or generally soaking work in some monsoon talk. If you are in Mumbai these days, or in Gujarat, Bihar, Punjab or all those other places that are shown on the TV as getting lashed by the unrelenting monsoon, you're waiting for some normalcy to return soon, and perhaps idly tossing a coin to check if your hopes could come true.

But there was a time when rain gambling was a popular sport, I learn from Anne Hardgrove's Community and Public Culture, published by Oxford University Press. It seems courtyard in No. 67 Cotton Street was a popular location for gamblers to assemble in Calcutta in the 19th century. "Bets on the rainfall were registered during three periods in the day, from 5 a.m. to 9 a.m. or noon; from noon to 9 p.m., and sometimes until midnight." Brokers would handle bets on "how much rain would fall during a certain period of time and when." Bombay, too, has been recorded as having played host to rain betters. But then the Anti-Gambling Act was clamped in place towards the end of the 19th century.

A case that went to the High Court then was about Motiram and Khimji, both "accused of running a shed as a common gaming house" with more than 30 stalls "to register wagers on the rainfall and of course to collect a commission on every bet placed." Police had searched the stalls and found "the existence of certain devices," called `Calcutta mori' rain gauge. It looks like they never wanted to wait for the announcements from the Met Department on how many centimetres of rain fell where.

Well, cases make interesting reading, more so the old ones. This one ended with a ruling that gambling on rainfall did not fall under the scope of the 1886 Act. How so? Because, as the defence argued, rain gambling "operated on the principles of betting (which was legal), not gambling (which was illegal)." In the latter, there is an active role required of gamblers, and that didn't happen when people simply watched rain fall, just as you do now, looking out the window.

Here's some more on the subject from Anne, citing government archives and law reports: "Rain gambling was defined as a monsoon event, when bets were placed on the amount of rain that would fall within a three-hour period, a period of time known in Hindi as pahar. In order to calculate the precise quantity amount of rain that had fallen, a tank was fitted with a spout from which rainwater would overflow once a certain quantity had fallen." No contest, no race, you'd agree; it was only a shot at the future, on how a contingent event would ultimately shape up. In Hindi, this was `barsat ka satta.'

Then came the Bill to amend the Prevention of Gambling Act (Bombay IV of 1887). From its proceedings, Anne notes how rain gambling was said to have "a demoralising effect by attracting gamblers from the rural mofussil and other `disorderly' persons, encouraging them to idleness, and inevitably leading to `dissipation ... and the ruin of families.'" The then proposed legislation outlawed instruments used as a means of gambling "even if they were only watched and not played or tampered with by any of the contenders."

These days, stock markets move with the monsoon and the Finance Minister's Budget spoke of how "weather insurance scheme appears to be more promising, at least in the design." So, in addition to staring at share prices on the monitors, should we not be watching too a tank with a spout perched on the windowsill, even if there are no contenders around?

SayCheek@TheHindu.co.in
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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 04:02

Pulikeshi wrote:Well said! As long as we spake Meta-Physics onlee and do not understand the needs and desires of society as a whole, we are not on the Dharmic path.


where is the connection between the two activities? ... parse this sentence for me:

"As long as we only pursue nuclear bombs and do not understand the needs and desires of society as a whole, we are not on a Dharmic path."

so, are the nuclear scientists now somehow suspect?

or, how about this:

"As long as we only pursue software exporters and do not understand the needs and desires of society as a whole, we are not on a Dharmic path."

so, will software exporters suddenly look like bad guys?

I can construct dozens such sentences ... what is the point?

why correlate two things and make a point in TSJ fashion? ... correlation is not causation except in shallow argumentation ...

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Postby pradeepe » 31 Mar 2007 04:03

Valkan thanks.

I am no closer to understanding it, I keep tripping up going through the exercise. But it has definitely fired up my curiosity.

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Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 04:04


why do you mix economic realities with religion? ... why can't your charitable actions also respect that the person you are helping needs water, not jesus?


Because otherwise we can't get people to give the stinking money in order to help. Faith based philanthropy is part and parcel of American Christianity. I have tried to tell everybody that most churches from the lowest to the highest in the US tries to have at least 25% of its budget dedicated to missions whether the missions are to be in the US or overseas. When it comes to God, people give money. When it comes to secular giving they want their name on a building or a local wing of a hospital or to some nebulous entity like red Cross. What the hell do you want me to say?

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Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 04:07

S.Valkan: I used the words "It is said" with care. I have not experienced turiya state and don't think you have either. But I don't think I can deny experience of others (there is only One experiencer) who say so. Yes you would call mine as faith, for me it is based on personal experience of power of such beings. No amount of statements from me can convince you that my personal experience is true. I will not go there for it is futile. Lets agree to disagree on turiya. If you assert that you know everything there is to know about turiya, you are no different from EJ for me. No offence intended.


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