Religion Thread - 6

Vishy_mulay
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Postby Vishy_mulay » 31 Mar 2007 04:09

TSJones,
I think poor blacks from the Louisiana need philanthropy more than poor SDRE tribals from India. We all saw how beautifully they were treated or being treated. Church based philanthropy should be used for fellow religious brothers and sisters or they are fair game since they are in fold to begin with?

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Postby JwalaMukhi » 31 Mar 2007 04:12

It is also called as pounding, where the cow is fattened by force feeding to tips the scales before being led to the slaughter house. With an eye on the harvest, the gullible is extended a hand.
Link: http://atheism.about.com/library/books/ ... aryPos.htm
The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice
by Christopher Hitchens. Published by Verso.
quote[[/quote]]
But then again, just what did she do for people in India? Everyone assumes that she did a lot of good and important work, but is that asumption based upon fact, or instead upon good marketing?
Why did these appalling conditions exist? It's not like her organization lacked the funding - it's unlikely that even she was aware of how much money she was able to collect over the years as homeless people died in poverty in Calcutta. She built no hospitals and trained no physicians, and she certainly did not criticize the repressive dictators who gave her honors and even more money, like the Duvaliers in Haiti.

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Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 04:14

Churches were right in there helping out. Distributing clothing, opening up their emergency food pantries and their churchs for temporary shelter. American Christianity has nothing to be ashamed of in that regard. They helped. So did the American taxpayer. Tremendously. Billions and billions of dollars worth of help. The problem of Katrina was emergency mismanagement by the government *not* American charity. The fact that a few of the refugees(certainly not all) have a sense of entitlement is particularly grinding.

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 04:17

finally EJ is all about money! :mrgreen: .. and its all about a way to spend off and claim tax exemptions to send people to India on EJ ride. Even public school teachers collect gifts from kids, goto India.. on EJ concessions.

mmm.. perhaps GoI needs to learn from Bushism and his EJ tax plan. Valkan, this could be a good anti cr@p plan. we need your bricks now.

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Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 04:20

deleted. No comment necessary.
Last edited by TSJones on 31 Mar 2007 04:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Pulikeshi » 31 Mar 2007 04:23

Alok_N wrote:where is the connection between the two activities? ... parse this sentence for me:

"As long as we only pursue nuclear bombs and do not understand the needs and desires of society as a whole, we are not on a Dharmic path."


Alok,

The west has developed a social contract between the individual and the government. You can refer to Rawls and Rousseau et. al. for how they went about developing a organization (society) as opposed the the "state" of nature. There are also several reasons why they had to do it this way.

In my view Dharmic traditions, create a social contract between groups (jati, jana, rajya, etc.) within the Dharmic fold. I interpret the concept of Dharma to be a social control system. Not a spiritual, religious edict or paradigm. We do not have a book that say - Thou shall help your fellow man, but we had a system of interdepent contracts, between castes, between tribes, etc. These are breaking down as we are entering a knowledge economy and a global age.

Thus, we need to question if it is Dharmic for the elite (as you said: Person-A or Person-B) to ignore the contract they have with Person-C and Person-D in society.

I believe I understand advaita as best as I can. I can quote happy sutras from the Vedas and Upanishads, but if I have no contract with my fellow Dharmic follower (who may be stooped in rituals and has no understanding what so ever of what I understand or am talking about), the entire structure of society collapses. If you cannot see this social contract that exists in a Dharmic society, then you need to question who you are trying to impress with your academic brilliance? How long will this brilliance be allowed to last, if the very substrate that sustains it turns to ADharma?

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Postby AshokS » 31 Mar 2007 04:24

TSJones wrote:
I think poor blacks from the Louisiana need philanthropy more than poor SDRE tribals from India.


This is hilarious. Are you for real? Who has airc onditioning and flush toilets and who doesn't? Who has education and who doesn't? Who has medicaid and medicare and who doesn't? Please, don't bother me anymore with your messages, OK?


Who has been made president and who hasn't... hint it ain't the blacks

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Postby pradeepe » 31 Mar 2007 04:31

TSJones wrote:
I think poor blacks from the Louisiana need philanthropy more than poor SDRE tribals from India.


This is hilarious. Are you for real? Who has airc onditioning and flush toilets and who doesn't? Who has education and who doesn't? Who has medicaid and medicare and who doesn't?


TSJ, the situation after Katrina and the murderous neglect and the tragic life of the those affected might be incredibly hilarious to you. Unfortunately very much real for those there.

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Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 04:33

Alok_N: All I can say is you misunderstood what I said. I don't know how better to articulate without getting into personal experience, which will make no sense to you.

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Postby disha » 31 Mar 2007 05:10

TSJones wrote: The fact that a few of the refugees(certainly not all) have a sense of entitlement is particularly grinding.


You are absolutely correct. Hey! Even Barbara Bush said that they are having the best time of their lives. Their lives cannot better than what they are currently going through! :-P

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Postby Kumar » 31 Mar 2007 05:17

Alok_N wrote:
sivab wrote:
S.Valcan wrote:How do you know anything when your mind is blank, and no thoughts arise ?
There are two kinds of knowing.


sivab.

with that distinction, you also wipe out the distinction between Hindu thought and any other thought/religion ...

if the "experience of Truth" by a "select few" is the sum total of evidence/argument, then religion proliferation can not be stopped ...

how in essence would you differentiate between a Rishi type who claimed having seen things versus a Rastafarai dude who smoked something good and claimed having seen things ...


"Experience of the few" charge equally applies to sciences. What fraction of humanity do science graduates constitute, and what fraction of those graduates actually get to observe say a "neutrino"?

On a flight from India to Europe I had to withstand mediocrity couched in bearded authoritativenss when an Indian man tried very hard to convert me to a certain sect of hinduism. He kept on going about "micro-vitum" as being essence of all particles of nature. I hadn't and haven't yet "observed" a neutrino or most of the particles of nature that modern physics says are in the particle zoo. But it didn't take me long to dismiss his ideas.

So what was I doing? Was I taking modern physics as a faith. Yes, in many ways, since we directly "observe" so little, even amongst the scientists.

What was the reason I could put more faith in a neutrino than a micro-vitum? Because I had a clear laid out path in science which I could follow, to actually "observe" a neutrino, no matter that I would have to fill swimming pools with detergents and line up the walls with millions of dollars worth of detectors and wait patiently for a kind neutrino to grace the huge detector with its "sign".

Such a path was not clear to me in a "micro-vitum" quest, besides so few (actually none) of the people I "trusted" had ever mentioned "micro-vitum". If I had still tried the micro-vitum quest, I may have been equally disillusioned as one who followed rastafarian spirituality.

Comparing millenia old practice of yoga-sadhana in India to rastafarians is similarly ill conceived. Yoga has withstood the test of time with a vast number of people, Rastafarianism is a new fad which still has to prove itself over time.

Yoga has laid out a path, with a vast body of literature and active practitioners. And just as in a physics training, it takes long and hard, and not everyone makes it. And similar to the case where a success in art doesn't automatically make one a success in science, a sucess in science is no guarantee for a sucess in Yoga. Each field has its own requirements, and different people have different aptitudes.

The way to differentiate Rishi types from rastafarians is similar to the way to differentiate particle-physicists from micro-vitumists.

The people with real grasp on things don't merely have mental "visions" with no impact on outside world, and it applies as much to yogis as to scientists. And the best way to judge either is to spend some time with a Rishi/sage/yogi or with an experimental particle physicist, and "observe" for oneself. But a basic aptitude (or adhikAra) is required to appreciate either.
Last edited by Kumar on 31 Mar 2007 07:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kakkaji » 31 Mar 2007 05:33

TSJones wrote:
I think poor blacks from the Louisiana need philanthropy more than poor SDRE tribals from India.


This is hilarious. Are you for real? Who has airc onditioning and flush toilets and who doesn't? Who has education and who doesn't? Who has medicaid and medicare and who doesn't?


TSJ:

There you go again. Comparing the material possessions of the poor in a country with a per capita income of $400 per year with those of the poor in a country with per capita income of $30,000+. :roll:

The relevant question here should be, why are the poor (mostly minorities) in a country with a per capita income of $30,000+, and one the majority of whose citizens are generous followers of your compassionate faith, poor at all? Heck, with that much wealth, and that much faith-based generosity, the entire population of New Orleans should have moved to nice houses built on higher ground before Katrina struck.

Reminds me of an American EJ preacher who collared me in an Indian train and told me, in all sincerity, that there was so much poverty in India because the Indians were not Christians (he must have been the preacher that trained you in your arguments :wink:). I asked him, father, if what you say is true, then why is there so much poverty and corruption in the Christian-majority countries of South America and Africa? Why is the only Christian-majority country in Asia, Phillipines, still poor and corrupt? And how come a non-Christian-majority country (Japan) is the richest in Asia, and second richest in the world?

The holy father went very quiet and did not speak to me (or anyone else) for the rest of the trip. :)

Similarily, my question to you is, if Christianity is what brings airconditioning and flush toilets, and medicare, and medicaid, the how come a non-Christian country, Japan, is ahead of Christian America in indicators such as health of population, longevity, education levels, and absence of crime?

Anyway, if you can guarantee that conversion to Christianity will immediately bring airconditioning, flush toilets, medicare, and medicaid to all of India's one billion+ people , I would say let us all convert to Christianity.

If you can't guarantee that, then I suggest you direct all your 'mission funds' to Mexico, the country next door to Texas, where millions of devout Christians still live without airconditioning, flush toilets, medicare and medicaid. :)

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Postby saip » 31 Mar 2007 05:34

Target is transferring cashiers who avoid pork

http://www.startribune.com/535/story/1061103.html

why is that only muslims seem to be making such a big deal out of this. I do understand they might have reservations about handling pork or alchohal. But when they took the job they would have known that is part of their job. I havent heard a hindu cashier complaining about handling beef or a jewish cashier handling pork.

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 05:35

Pulikeshi wrote:Thus, we need to question if it is Dharmic for the elite (as you said: Person-A or Person-B) to ignore the contract they have with Person-C and Person-D in society.


you are still speaking the language of the Colonizer/EJ and/or TSJ ...

where did the phrase "elite" come from?

are you under the impression that someone who is economically better off, somehow more capable of understanding Hindu thought? ...

all the members of this forum are supposedly "better off" because they have the opportunity and the time to be typing on their computers ... are they better equipped? ...

several threads ago, I gave the example of a Maali, who had captured the essence, even though he did not have Rs 100 to his name ...

through my life, I have met enlightened beings in all walks of life ... one place I usually don't tend to find them is in get-togethers of "well off" folks ...

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Postby Kakkaji » 31 Mar 2007 05:46

Where are Sadler and Johann?

I would like to request their perspective on my post about the roots of Jesus' teachings being based on the doctrine of Pharisee Hillel.

TIA

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 05:46

sivab wrote:Alok_N: All I can say is you misunderstood what I said. I don't know how better to articulate without getting into personal experience, which will make no sense to you.


It makes perfect sense to me ... it just doesn't make absolute sense to me ...

boss, I am also from India ... and I am fairly confident that I have spent more time with Sadhus than anyone else on this forum ...

and, I mean spending real time, as in living with them, walking with them, smoking with them, eating with them, sleeping with them, begging with them, etc etc ...

not sitting in some a/c Satsang or a Darshan of a Swami-ji ...

I have seen Sadhus do things that would seem like physical impossibilities ... I have seen them do things that caused me to throw up no end ... I met Sadhus wrapped in cobras ... I attended some tantrik ceremonies to which outsiders were not allowed ...

And yet, the enlightened folks I met were people leading normal everyday lives ... I met an enlightened man in a cafe in San Francisco ... I met an enlightened woman at a concert in Ohio ...

all of this is not the point ...

all that is not the issue ... we are talking about deducing an absolute truth through contemplation alone ...

all you have is your awareness ... any truth that you arrive at has to be experienced by your awareness ... so there is no need to talk about "special few" ...

each of us is special because each of us is aware ... period.
Last edited by Alok_N on 31 Mar 2007 05:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 05:49


If you can't guarantee that, then I suggest you direct all your 'mission funds' to Mexico, the country next door to Texas, where millions of devout Christians still live without airconditioning, flush toilets, medicare and medicaid


But, but, Kakkaji, we do send missions to Mexico. Unfortunately, they are like you guys, they don't wan' no stinkin' protestant missionaries there. Everything we do there has to be very quiet and non obtrusive. We can't get permission to build big shiny churches there, they have to be tiny house sized ones with no sign allowed, please. Everything is on the QT there, becuase man, they are a Catholic country. Except, er, no, constitutionally they are not. Oh well, what difference does a consitution make, eh? I know of a Baptist church in Texas City that sends members every year down to the mountains past Monte in a rickety old bus. They work, they drill wells, they bring clothing, they sponsor students at the local university. Trust me, these people are not rich. They have bills to pay. But they take time off from their work to go there and experience the fellowship that results from their philanthropy. And they *love* it. Each and everyone of them when they return says it rejuvenates their Christian spirit. I would go(no you don't have to be a member of their church) but I have allergies to non air conditioning when I try to sleep.

Thanks for bringing that up, I appreciate it Kakkaji!
Last edited by TSJones on 31 Mar 2007 06:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 05:58

TSJ,

here is the thing you don't get ...

you can't take a society and find the biggest problem it faces, assign it to its religious beliefs, and start offering to fix it ...

if this were the case, here is how I would suggest that schools teach Catholicism (along the lines of how Hindu thought gets a few sentences in California text-books):

Catholicism is a religion in which priests have sex with boys that they lure into their churches. Everybody in Catholicism commits sins for which there is a punishment scale counted in terms of chanting "Hail Mary". The abused boys of Catholicism are a consequence of that society that believes that priests should not have sex. They also don't believe in contraception.


How would you like it if that were the sum total of what billions of folks in the world knew about Catholicism?

Upon request, I can construct such one paragraph summaries for every religion, including yours ... :)

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Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 06:01


Upon request, I can construct such one paragraph summaries for every religion, including yours ...


And of course you don't mind doing the same about evangelists?

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Postby Kumar » 31 Mar 2007 06:05

S.Valkan wrote:Similarly, why should you have to extinguish thought to "experience" Brahman or Purnam or Whole ?
...
How will you "realize" something if your analytical process (thoughts) is not working ?

Many yoga authorities use a negative terminology when they say that thought must be extinguished or mind must be silenced (or in some cases they say mind must be killed).

This leaves many who know very well how useful a mind can be, in a state of disbelief. But the key point is missed in a reaction induced by this negative terminology, which is that "consciousness" or chiti is not restricted to mind only.

In humans, mind has eveolved as the best instrument for consciousness. Plants don't have mind or nervous system. They can be called lacking in mind, but can we say that they don't possess consciousness.

Similarly, mind need not be the last on the ladder of evolution regarding instruments of consciousness. It is highly likely that future evolutions would create even better instruments than "mind" for enhancing our consciousness.

Yogic claim is that even with our present body-mind, it is possible to open up new kinds of consciousness.

I had earlier given an example of superconductivity. A normal metal at a normal temperature has electrons colliding with the lattice sites and giving rise to electrical resistance in the motion of electrons. But is that the only way electrons can move in a metal?

Turns out, that if you keep on cooling a metal to within few degrees Kelvin of absolute zero, the metal undergoes a dramatic change. Electrons start forming correlated "cooper pairs", resulting in an astonishing large scae behavior. Electrons effectively stop colliding with the lattice! The resistance that lattice provided earlier drops so dramatically that a wire rated normally for 5 Amps current could easily carry 1 lakh Amps.

This vast increase in capacity to carry currents comes from a necessary condition of low temperatures where the inter-electronal correlations are not destroyed by the thermal perturbations.

In yoga a similar claim is made. A mind buzzing with thoughts is a "hot" mind. If one calms one's mind to a point where thoughts are almost annihilated, then the mind supposedly undergoes a phase transition, similar to superconductivity. Whether neuronal correlations increase to a point where a surprisingly new behavior emerges can't be answered at present.

What is clear is that all great yogis/sages attest to that. From Patanjali, to Gorakshanatha, to Vivekananda to Ramana Maharshi, to Aurobindo.

The very first sutra of Patanjali's yoga-sutra:
yogaH chitta vritti nirodhaH
Yoga is stopping the thought-forms of the mind


It doesn't mean that there is no instrument of knowledge left after the mind falls silent. A new kind of instrument arises. But this new instrument appears so different in properties that Yogis give it different names. The term "vijnAna" is used to explain the way of knowing when the mind falls silent. Sri Aurobindo uses terms like "overmind" and "supermind".

At the highest level, knowledge is not supposed to be dependent on any instruments. Rather the knowledge comes by observer becoming one with the object. This can not be called a "thought process" or "analytical process". There is no analysis (breaking into parts) or dynamic thought that is involved. Knowledge is supposed to be integral. One truly knows something only by becoming it. Even in upanishads similar statements are present.

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 06:07

TSJones wrote:
Upon request, I can construct such one paragraph summaries for every religion, including yours ...


And of course you don't mind doing the same about evangelists?


no, of course not ... go ahead and request it ... :)

the most good EJ can do is by doing nothing ... focus on the maximization of "good", not some local "fine-tuning" of good ...

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Postby disha » 31 Mar 2007 06:12

TSJones wrote:...But they take time off from their work to go there and experience the fellowship that results from their philanthropy. And they *love* it. Each and everyone of them when they return says it rejuvenates their Christian spirit. ...


Cannot help - young men, village people and YMCA - and they love it!!! :shock:

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Postby Pulikeshi » 31 Mar 2007 06:26

Alok_N wrote:Where did the phrase "elite" come from?



Duh! English! They exist in even poverty stricken developing country like India you know. [Major sarcasm alert to the untrained :-)]

Alok_N wrote:You are still speaking the language of the Colonizer/EJ and/or TSJ ...


Nice labels – pick a battle only when you know what your desired end result is.
You win: I am a Colonizer, EJ, perhaps even a TSJ
Wait – you mean I am THEM, then you are what? The oppressed, poor, etc….

Alok_N wrote:are you under the impression that someone who is economically better off, somehow more capable of understanding Hindu thought? ...


Pay attention to what I have written – where have I said this? You are arguing enlightenment and knowledge. I am merely beyond the religious and thinking about the socio-biological and geo-political issues and aspects of religion, economics and politics.
If you can’t keep up, quit trying to drag the discussion back to what you are comfortable with….

Here is some thoughts to ponder, see if you can contribute rather than arguing for the sake of argument.

As the complexity of the organization of society increased, so did the complexity of religions:


1. Nature worship - Small city-states
2. Classical Hinduism - Large cities within small nation-states
3. Monotheistic Religions - Bureaucratic top-down control autocratic states
4. Organized Religions - Similar to 3, but with better customer service, reponse to empires
5. Hindu Trinity - Social Control System based on Dharma , large complex, diverse empires

The EJs have better customer service and products to offer. Enlightenment means a lot to me, maybe to even a farmer in Bihar, maybe even to a Maali. However, there are millions who what simple effective rules and not worry about enlightenment. Where and what are the products and services we are creating to satisfies the masses? I have some ideas on where this is going. The knowledge economies of the future will further create a complex environment not only for Hinduism, but also for other relgions. This means we need to adapt and create new ideas. Care to add or critic constructively?

Alok_N wrote:through my life, I have met enlightened beings in all walks of life ... one place I usually don't tend to find them is in get-togethers of "well off" folks ...


Your purpose is to seek enlightenment – power to you.
But, as Chanakya says the duty of a citizen is to pursue Artha (wealth), Kama (desires) and then Moksha (Salvation) in that order. Consider that there are others differently enlightened who are wealthy, and would like the average wealth of India to increase in a Dharmic way. Perhaps you are not hanging out with the right kind of elite :mrgreen:

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Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 06:39

Alok_N wrote:we are talking about deducing an absolute truth through contemplation alone


I never said only a select few can do it. My statement was that only a select few did/do it. One who has knowledge at first grade level has to put in certain amount of work to get PhD. In the same way it takes enormous amount of contemplation to get to final goal. Not everybody pursues something to logical conclusion, most drop out when going gets tough. Having known what I know I haven't even started on this path.

The point is that one can reach absolute truth through contemplation alone, but in this pursuit one has to give up everything else slowly. The latter part is what makes it difficult. However just like a first grade student who gets results as he progresses, one gets results in contemplation pursuit as well. I know a normal person with wife and two kids, who retired from IAF, but very sincere in his pursuit on contemplation with extraordinary power which I happen to experience. He is not from high caste by birth (but he is true brahmin now) nor is he highly educated. This may probably make no sense to you but it was my experience. He identfied several other normal people who are at an advanced stage than him. He is not my spiritual guru, but confirms what my guru said. There are probably several thousands more like him near chennai alone. This is the strong current of SD that is still alive and well in India.

BTW, my guru teaches and I beleive in it as well that all religions are true and provide different ways to reach absolute truth.

I do agree with you on your comment about awareness. Thats what my guru taught me and I believe in for a long time.
Last edited by sivab on 31 Mar 2007 06:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 06:43

Acharya wrote:
The only assumption correct is that the education and media puts down the discussion of Hindu religion and practices in the last 30 years. This is due to entire generation educated on the fake 'secular/marxist' education who now control the education and media desk of the country. It is as simple as that.

But there is a large silent mass which keeps the traditions and is not given a voice. If you search you will find it.


Acharya - the "silent mass" is an assumption. I have searched and found zilch/nada/shunya evidence of this.

It is easy to make counter assumptions to say that he "fake/secular" marxist threat affects only a small minority. The silent mass is sitting out there - ready to hold up the Hindu jhanda.

On this thread I am not getting proof that either Hindus are under threat, or proof that they are not and that there is a silent mass.

I don't believe there is any "silent mass" That is a "high hopes" assumption that is more dangerous than blaming other forces.

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Postby svinayak » 31 Mar 2007 06:50

Shiv, We have to agree to disagree

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Postby Kumar » 31 Mar 2007 07:03

SaiK wrote:for the gurus, what is the meaning of:
YA nirvritis thanu bruthAm thava pAda padma dhyAnAth bhavat jana kathA
sravaNEna vA syAth
SA brahmaNi svamahimanyapi nAtha mA bhooth kim thvantakAsi lulithAth
pathathAm vimAnAth

thanks

Sai, Please check Srimad Bhagavatam 4.9.10.

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Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 07:06

Acharya wrote:
Please take no offense on my next para.
Now your post shows classic symptom of an brainwashed person who even though is a Hindu is thinking and visualizing Hindu practices based on what you read and hear in the media and school textbook. Your views can be used for a classic study of social transformation due to education and media indoctrination.

This is where the problem is. We need a person who is in a bubble and not contaminated to discuss such topics.


I love the thought process because it gives me lots to say..

No such person exists in a bubble. Tell me that you are waiting for Kalki, or the second coming of Christ and you get to know what lines I'm thinking - i.e. that you are dreaming.

You make an interesting statement typical of what I hear anglophone "Hindu lamenters" saying i.e that my words make a good case study of "social transformation due to education and media indoctrination.". I see see this as the statement of a person who thinks there was something different among Hindus which is now gone. If that is true, where is the "silent mass" that you have referred to who perhaps live in this mysterious bubble?

It is easy to classify one person's words as the product of indoctrination, and say that you are waiting for someone to come out of a conjured bubble so that he is not indoctrinated. You have separately alleged the presence of a silent mass of Hindus who have not lost all the knowledge that I have said Hindus have already lost. There is no indication whether the bubble dwelling person exists in the silent mass or not.

What I am getting at is simple. There is no silent mass. there is no bubble dwelling Hindu who can talk about India (in English!) uninfluenced by education.

What is the difference between your hopes of these mythical people and Christian hopes of a second coming of Christ.

We have to move forward from what we obviously have, and not some dreamed up entities.

We obviously have some type of Hindu that you may not be particularly happy with. He may be the product of "social transformation due to education and media indoctrination." - but that is all we have. We have no silent mass. We have no Hindus living in bubbles unaffected by history. You are welcome to wait and search for such people and may you find success in your quest. I prefer the Christian "here and now" to see how I can address the question of what appears to me decline of Hindus as seen from the eyes of a person who lives in this world by being a Hindu product of "social transformation due to education and media indoctrination."

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Postby Kakkaji » 31 Mar 2007 07:16

TSJones wrote:But, but, Kakkaji, we do send missions to Mexico. Unfortunately, they are like you guys, they don't wan' no stinkin' protestant missionaries there. Everything we do there has to be very quiet and non obtrusive. We can't get permission to build big shiny churches there, they have to be tiny house sized ones with no sign allowed, please. Everything is on the QT there, becuase man, they are a Catholic country.


But, but, TSJ, they are also Christians. I mean they accept Jesus as the Son of God, worship his virgin mother, and believe he was resurrected from the dead. Shouldn't that have been sufficient to get them air conditioning, flush toilets, medicare, and medicaid?

What's all this Catholic and Protestant among believers in the same messiah? Did the messiah say that to one set of my followers I shall give ac, flush toilets, medicare and medicaid, and to the other set I shall give zilch? A messiah is not supposed to discriminate among his followers, is he?

Or are you saying the true faith only gives these things to the truer of the true faith?

That raises another doubt in my mind TSJ. When I look around the world, there is no non-white Protestant majority country in the world all whose citizens have ac, ft, mc and ma. So is there a chance that even after all of us SDRE Yindoos convert to Protestantism, we may not get ac, ft, mc, and ma? That will be real KLPD (look that up) TSJ, won't it? I mean one billion people will negate thousands of years of their ancestry, accept a foreign scripture as their own, and yet no ac, ft, mc, and ma? :eek:

I know of a Baptist church in Texas City that sends members every year down to the mountains past Monte in a rickety old bus. They work, they drill wells, they bring clothing, they sponsor students at the local university.


And I know people, of the faith and belonging to organizations you make fun of, who wade through waist deep water to bring food (Chapatis, Jaggery, and pickles that people like to eat in that area, not cakes that they don't) to flood-affected areas, who pick up bloated corpses and cremate them, who provide medical treatment free of cost, and who get a deep sense of satisfaction that by serving their countrymen in need, they have served God. And no, a truckload of these volunteers don't need two truckloads of food to eat themselves every day like the Texan EJs. :wink:

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Postby svinayak » 31 Mar 2007 07:19

shiv wrote:

If that is true, where is the "silent mass" that you have referred to who perhaps live in this mysterious bubble?

You have separately alleged the presence of a silent mass of Hindus who have not lost all the knowledge that I have said Hindus have already lost. There is no indication whether the bubble dwelling person exists in the silent mass or not.

What I am getting at is simple. There is no silent mass. there is no bubble dwelling Hindu who can talk about India (in English!) uninfluenced by education.

We obviously have some type of Hindu that you may not be particularly happy with. He may be the product of "social transformation due to education and media indoctrination." - but that is all we have.



Taking the line of thought further , then do not blame the Hindu society for caste discrimination or other atrocities since there is no Hindu society but only a caricature of resemblance of Hindu society in name only.

We cannot have both ways and blame the scriptures for this evil and that evil practices but do not see any 'Hindu' society really present right now.

That means the the people of India have been completely colonized and all the blame as to be given to the colonized period and colonizers.
So you agree with this.

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Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 07:31


And no, a truckload of these volunteers don't need two truckloads of food to eat themselves every day like the Texan EJs.


Oh, that wuz awful! :)

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Postby ldev » 31 Mar 2007 07:37

Acharya wrote:That means the the people of India have been completely colonized and all the blame as to be given to the colonized period and colonizers.
So you agree with this.


I think you may be using the word *colonized* which is a politically loaded word, interchangably with *culturally influenced*. Lots of difference between the two.

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 07:40

Pulikeshi wrote:
Alok_N wrote:Where did the phrase "elite" come from?



Duh! English! They exist in even poverty stricken developing country like India you know. [Major sarcasm alert to the untrained :-)]


alert noted and the remainder ignored ... be well :)

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 07:42

sivab wrote:I know a normal person with wife and two kids, who retired from IAF, but very sincere in his pursuit on contemplation with extraordinary power which I happen to experience. He is not from high caste by birth (but he is true brahmin now) nor is he highly educated. This may probably make no sense to you but it was my experience.


as I wrote earlier, it makes perfect sense to me ...

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Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 07:44

Acharya wrote:That means the the people of India have been completely colonized and all the blame as to be given to the colonized period and colonizers.
So you agree with this.


Two statements in one

1) India completely colonized? - yes

2 Blame on colonizers? - a qualified yes, but Hindus were the losers weren't they? It is to be expected that losers will blame victors and that is understandable. But what is inexcusable is for losers to blame victors without examining their own weaknesses. If the cricket team blame others are we going to accept that as OK. Then how can Hindus think it is quite alright to blame victors for defeating them?

Are Indians completely colonized?

I suspect that is true. That is why I believe that there is no silent mass or no Indian in a bubble who can discuss Hindu strategy without being influenced by modern education.

But it does not end there. If Indians are completely mentally colonized, blaming the colonizers today is of little use. What Hindus should have done is fight the colonizers of yesterday.

I think that blaming the forces of history and the forces that Yahweh and Allah made powerful in the past is a waste of time that will not help revitalise or re-educate colonised Hindu minds.

That is precisely why I have been hollering on this thread for Hindus to try and define what is left that is worth preserving and start working on that rather than mourning what is already gone.

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 07:47

sivab wrote:Lets agree to disagree on turiya. If you assert that you know everything there is to know about turiya, you are no different from EJ for me. No offence intended.


The concept of Turiya is laid out beautifully in the 12th verse of the Mandukya Upanishad.

If you or people you personally know attest to the fact that Chitta-vritti Nirodha is Turiya, then you are essentially at odds with the terse, profound description of the 4th state as the object of knowledge of non-duality [ Ya evem veda....Prapanchasomam siva Advaitam evam Omkara Atman eva ]

If you take it in the context of Verse 2 ( Sarvam Hyetad Brahman ) and Verse 1 ( OM iti etad aksharam idam sarvam ), the attempt in Mandukya Upanishad is to explain the knowledge of the 4th state as the one that encompasses the WHOLE as a Non-dual entity ( and not the partial states of Duality knowledge in wake, dream and deep sleeps ).

Nowhere does it talk about "Citta Vritti Nirodha".

Kumar wrote:It doesn't mean that there is no instrument of knowledge left after the mind falls silent. A new kind of instrument arises.But this new instrument appears so different in properties that Yogis give it different names. The term "vijnAna" is used to explain the way of knowing when the mind falls silent. Sri Aurobindo uses terms like "overmind" and "supermind".


Knowledge is supposed to be integral. One truly knows something only by becoming it. Even in upanishads similar statements are present.


It is really surprising, and sad at the same time, that intelligent people continue to rely on faith, rather than reason ( or scripture, if that's taken as a guide ) to make a point.

Firstly, the Upanishads simply say that those that know Brahman become Brahman ( Paramam Brahman Veda Brahman eva Bhavati ).

Not the other way round.

A few posts earlier, I even laid out the logical reasons why.

Finite actions performed by a finite instrument ( body-mind) cannot become the infinite.

Yet it seems that a conscious effort is being made to project that some people have attained a "special" state of bliss by becoming one with Brahman.

Well, if the mind attains a superconducting state, and BECOMES/MERGES with the undifferentiated Brahman, why doesn't the experiencer vanish, and why does the experience end in a few seconds/minutes/hours ?

Why and how does the experiencer retain the "memory" of that experience if he had become ONE with Brahman in the Supermind ?

It is such a wonder that a mind free of thoughts is automatically considered as "experience" of Brahman, or - as Kumar has done - project it as some "superconducting, high velocity appartus" that can burn a hole through the hippocampus or amigdala.

Does this mean that Brahman is Absent when thought is there ?

The Brihadaranyaka Upanishads clearly says - "Manasa eva Anudrashtavyam" ( to be COMPREHENDED by the Mind alone).

The other Upanishads are also in agreement,- "Brahman Vid Apnoti Param", "Yam Jnatva muchyate Jantuh", "Tam eva manya atmanam vidwan Brahman amrita amritam" and so on.

All talk of understanding/grasping/comprehending ( using your intellect/mind).

Nary a talk about "BECOMING" anything.

Yet, for some inexplicable reason, there is a tendency among the Neo-Vedanta crowd to project "realization" as some "practical" way, and "knowledge" as some "theoretical" intellectual discourse.

Wonder when this misconceptions would end!

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Postby SriKumar » 31 Mar 2007 07:48

S.Valkan wrote:
SriKumar wrote:Agreed that it is difficult to objectively measure happiness and I cannot supply proof, but would you not agree that there are swamijis/yogis who own nothing and are happy?
The KNOWLEDGE that 'I am Satyam-Jnanam-Anantam Brahman' will dispel that ignorance about my Self, and remove the root problem of my unhappiness ( I am limited )................ It is knowledge alone that liberates
Thanks for the detailed explanations. I have to ruminate/ponder/reflect/introspect etc. :). I am not 100% there, but further along than when I started.

Un-related question: From your responses to Vishy_mulay, I get the impression that you do not think it is necessary to read the original Sanskrit versions of the texts to understand these concepts, and that current English translations are good enough?
Last edited by SriKumar on 31 Mar 2007 07:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby vsudhir » 31 Mar 2007 07:50

When I look around the world, there is no non-white Protestant majority country in the world all whose citizens have ac, ft, mc and ma. So is there a chance that even after all of us SDRE Yindoos convert to Protestantism, we may not get ac, ft, mc, and ma? That will be real KLPD (look that up) TSJ, won't it? I mean one billion people will negate thousands of years of their ancestry, accept a foreign scripture as their own, and yet no ac, ft, mc, and ma?


Kakkaji,
South korea is one such country. Fully protestant (heck, evangelical even). and they all have ac, ft, mc and ma. Tempting though it is, I wouldn't quite ascribe cause and effect here as in "the SoKos got ac, ft, mc and ma because they went evangelical......". Hope you get the drift.

In any case, going by estbd desi mentality, once the SDRE gets hold of a flush toilet, all the EJ theology that comes with it will likely be flushed down it as well..... er, just saying as a figure of speech, ya know....

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 07:50

shiv wrote:
Acharya wrote:But there is a large silent mass which keeps the traditions and is not given a voice. If you search you will find it.


Acharya - the "silent mass" is an assumption. I have searched and found zilch/nada/shunya evidence of this.


Shiv, if I may add something to this ...

the problem is as follows ... the more one contemplates, the more withdrawn one gets ... the concept of sanyas is a natural outcome ... so, the jeopardy is that the section of population keeping the tradition alive is by definition "silent" ...

sivab is alluding to this also with his reference of "thousands in Chennai alone" ... if one person like sivab can attest to thousands, and I have no reason to doubt him, then imagine the real numbers out there ...

my own experience tells me that they are hard to find if one is looking for them, but if one keep's one's mind/heart/eyes open, they pop out of nowehere in your life ...

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Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 07:53

Valkan boss,

at this hour? ... is everything alright? ... Is SHQ away? ... :)

btw, don't mind if I use you as an example of the point I made to Shiv ...

earlier, I had noted that you were too humble and didn't wish to write a book ...

these are signs of a "silent entity" ... it took some prodding to get you to post here ...


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