sivab wrote:Lets agree to disagree on turiya. If you assert that you know everything there is to know about turiya, you are no different from EJ for me. No offence intended.
The concept of Turiya is laid out beautifully in the 12th verse of the Mandukya Upanishad.
If you or people you personally know attest to the fact that Chitta-vritti Nirodha is Turiya, then you are essentially at odds with the terse, profound description of the 4th state as the object of knowledge
of non-duality [ Ya evem veda
....Prapanchasomam siva Advaitam evam Omkara Atman eva ]
If you take it in the context of Verse 2 ( Sarvam Hyetad Brahman ) and Verse 1 ( OM iti etad aksharam idam sarvam ), the attempt in Mandukya Upanishad is to explain the knowledge of the 4th state as the one that encompasses the WHOLE as a Non-dual entity ( and not the partial states of Duality knowledge in wake, dream and deep sleeps ).
Nowhere does it talk about "Citta Vritti Nirodha".
Kumar wrote:It doesn't mean that there is no instrument of knowledge left after the mind falls silent. A new kind of instrument arises.But this new instrument appears so different in properties that Yogis give it different names. The term "vijnAna" is used to explain the way of knowing when the mind falls silent. Sri Aurobindo uses terms like "overmind" and "supermind".
Knowledge is supposed to be integral. One truly knows something only by becoming it. Even in upanishads similar statements are present.
It is really surprising, and sad at the same time, that intelligent people continue to rely on faith, rather than reason ( or scripture, if that's taken as a guide ) to make a point.
Firstly, the Upanishads simply say that those that know Brahman become
Brahman ( Paramam Brahman Veda Brahman eva Bhavati ).
Not the other way round.
A few posts earlier, I even laid out the logical reasons why.
Finite actions performed by a finite instrument ( body-mind) cannot become the infinite.
Yet it seems that a conscious effort is being made to project that some people have attained a "special" state of bliss by becoming one with Brahman.
Well, if the mind attains a superconducting state, and BECOMES/MERGES with the undifferentiated Brahman, why doesn't the experiencer vanish, and why does the experience end in a few seconds/minutes/hours ?
Why and how does the experiencer retain the "memory" of that experience if he had become ONE with Brahman in the Supermind ?
It is such a wonder that a mind free of thoughts is automatically considered as "experience" of Brahman, or - as Kumar has done - project it as some "superconducting, high velocity appartus" that can burn a hole through the hippocampus or amigdala.
Does this mean that Brahman is Absent when thought is there ?
The Brihadaranyaka Upanishads clearly says - "Manasa eva Anudrashtavyam" ( to be COMPREHENDED by the Mind alone).
The other Upanishads are also in agreement,- "Brahman Vid
Apnoti Param", "Yam Jnatva
muchyate Jantuh", "Tam eva manya atmanam vidwan
Brahman amrita amritam" and so on.
All talk of understanding/grasping/comprehending ( using your intellect/mind).
Nary a talk about "BECOMING" anything.
Yet, for some inexplicable reason, there is a tendency among the Neo-Vedanta crowd to project "realization" as some "practical" way, and "knowledge" as some "theoretical" intellectual discourse.
Wonder when this misconceptions would end!