Religion Thread - 6

S.Valkan
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 01:29

Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 08:11

SriKumar wrote:From your responses to Vishy_mulay, I get the impression that you do not think it is necessary to read the original Sanskrit versions of the texts to understand these concepts, and that current English translations are good enough?


Say you read "Etad Atmyam Idam Sarvam Tat Satyam Sa Atma Tat Tvam Asi Svetaketu " in original Sanskrit.

Or you read "The Being/Substratum of all there is,That is the Reality, That is the Self, You are That, Svetaketu".

What difference does it make ?

If it has to make sense to you, you have to THINK about it, contemplate logically, and intuitively grasp it.

Or go to a Satsang, and have the Guru explain it to you.

Knowledge of Sanskrit may help, but only a little. Not much.

Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 08:14

further thoughts on that issue ...

IMO, in early times, the structure of scoiety was such that the contemplaters were left alone and were secure ... they had no reason to "defend" anything ... the remainder of society functioned normally and the sanyasis functioned in their "bubbles" ..

in today's world, society is too busy to pay attention to the fact there is something outside of their daily lives that deserves consideration away from everyday angst ...

in modern terms, the west does a good job of creating ivory towers for its thinkers ... in India, this tradition has been lost ... there is no state patronage because such things are viewed as "communal" or otherwise politicized ...

then there are views such as Pulikeshi's that the thinkers should have a "contract" with the rest of the population ... why is that an efficient model?

who, in a society like modern India, has the task of preserving traditions? ... if everyone is busy making a buck and watching television, how can there be any continuity? ...

further, if those who are indeed immersed in traditional thought, are labeled as "elite" (with or w/o a "sarcasm" flag), what can one realistically expect?

sorry about this rant ... I mean that.

S.Valkan
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 01:29

Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 08:22

Alok_N wrote:in modern terms, the west does a good job of creating ivory towers for its thinkers ... in India, this tradition has been lost ... there is no state patronage because such things are viewed as "communal" or otherwise politicized ...


Good point.

who in a society like modern India has the task of preserving traditions? ... if everyone is busy making a buck and watching television, how can there be any continuity? ...


This is the tragedy.

Many here have expressed the view that there needs to be "easily digestible" books.

Why ? Because there is no time to spend on useless pursuits like "preserving tradition".

If $10 can buy me an easily digestible Frito Lays' enlightenment chips, why bother tilling the land and planting seeds ?

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3284
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Postby Kakkaji » 31 Mar 2007 08:23

Tangential, but relevant for those who have been portraying religious Hindus as cruel oppressors of Dalits, Tribals, and minorities, and Hindu temples as exclusivist dens of untouchability and inequity: :roll:


Temple job for Mughal heir

[quote]Patna, March 30: She lives off a small scrap shop in Howrah’s Shibpur with her family. Often, they go without even two square meals a day. The only other income she has is the Rs 400 she gets as pension every month.

But she has blue blood running in her veins, no mixes anywhere. Her name is Sultana Begum and she is the great granddaughter-in-law of the last Mughal emperor, Bahadur Shah Zafar.

Neither the Bengal government nor the Centre has — in her own words — bothered to help her or shown any respect to her bloodline. To the extent that she was today stunned by the kindness that a Bihar temple trust showed her.

[b]The Mahavir Mandir Trust offered the widow of Mirza Mohammad Bedar Bakht — a great grandson of Bahadur Shah — a job for one of her family members and funds to finance her grandson’s studies.

“I feel very honoured at the temple’s decision. I will never forget it,â€

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 996
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 08:27

S.Valkan wrote:The concept of Turiya is laid out beautifully in the 12th verse of the Mandukya Upanishad


Thats still bookish knowledge. You don't have real experience of what it is and neither do I. Why then are you forcing your interpretation as the truth like EJs? I am not forcing mine on you. So let us aree to disagree.

rongsheng
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 18
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 03:50

Postby rongsheng » 31 Mar 2007 08:28

repeat
Last edited by rongsheng on 31 Mar 2007 08:39, edited 1 time in total.

rongsheng
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 18
Joined: 24 Mar 2007 03:50

Postby rongsheng » 31 Mar 2007 08:33

rongsheng wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
rongsheng wrote:christian god's character is very interesting. Christian god's sons including Satan and christian god have similar tastes. Example :--
job 1.6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=9;
Hmmm I thought christian god only had one son. I guess not.


Job 1:6 says that and so does Job 38:7. We are all the sons & daughters of God as ultimately we all belong to him. The word “sonâ€

S.Valkan
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 01:29

Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 08:35

sivab wrote:You don't have real experience of what it is and neither do I.


Is that a belief or something you know for a fact ?

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Postby Pulikeshi » 31 Mar 2007 08:36

shiv wrote:But it does not end there. If Indians are completely mentally colonized, blaming the colonizers today is of little use. What Hindus should have done is fight the colonizers of yesterday.

I think that blaming the forces of history and the forces that Yahweh and Allah made powerful in the past is a waste of time that will not help revitalise or re-educate colonised Hindu minds.


Guys, the British were colonized by the Romans. The Romans were colonized by the Greeks, etc., etc. Get over it!

Many civilizations that got colonized have gone on to be colonizers themselves. The cycle will continue, maybe the method changes.....

I agree with Shiv here that looking too far back and lamenting is a waste of time. The pragmatic view is to accept the good things that came out of being colonized by the forces of Allah and Yahweh. Make this a part of our own DNA and move forward. We survived for a reason - let us now thrive!

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 996
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 08:39

S.Valcan wrote:Is that a belief or something you know for a fact ?


Are you claiming otherwise? Why are you quoting texts if you have real experience?

S.Valkan
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 01:29

Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 08:42

sivab wrote:Are you claiming otherwise?


You made an unqualified accusation.

It must be based on presumption or foreknowledge.

I was merely ascertaining the facts.

Why are you quoting texts if you have real experience?


If you have tasted mango, you aren't allowed to discuss the recipe for making Mango Lassi ?

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 996
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 08:45

S.Valkan: I didn't accuse of anything. I don't want a pissing contest.

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 996
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 08:49

S.Valkan wrote:If you have tasted mango, you aren't allowed to discuss the recipe for making Mango Lassi ?


If you are claiming real experience of non-duality, I will take it at face value.

Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 08:50

sivab wrote:
S.Valcan wrote:Is that a belief or something you know for a fact ?


Are you claiming otherwise? Why are you quoting texts if you have real experience?


sivab,

if you don't mind, allow me to characterize your beef ...

you are bent upon this business of "real experience" ... why? ... is that a crutch that allows you to be lazy? ...

it goes something like this, "Big Daddy Rishi/Mnui/Yogi dudes know it all because they have a Third Eye or some such fantastic means of knowing it. I don't have such a device, so I can't possibly know it. I am such a minor player in this game so what me worry onlee ..."

I referred to these as the "me head hurts" moments ...

who are you fooling with this attitude, if not yourself?

my 2 cents ... please ignore it if it is not useful ...

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 996
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 08:56

Alok_N: Because if someone has not tasted sweetness no amount of bookish explanation about sweetness can give same understanding as eating one teaspoon of sugar.

Last post on this.

S.Valkan
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 01:29

Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 08:58

sivab wrote:If you are claiming real experience of non-duality, I will take it at face value.


Ah! Is that how you accepted others' claims of 'real experience',- at face value ?

You just substantiated Alok-ji's point about Rastafarians.

Anyway, this 'real experience' is utter misconception.

Why does one seek 'experience' of non-duality ?

Who is experiencing the "non-dual" state in Samadhi ?

Is that person still there AND experiencing a "non-dual" experience ? If he is there, how is it a "non-dual" experience ?

If thoughts stop, does the body vanish ? If not, what happens to the "non-duality" of the experience ?

So, the problem of duality still remains.

The problem is NOT in experience of duality, but in the conclusion of duality.

If experience of duality was the problem, what happens to "enlightened" persons when they return from that Samadhi "trip" to "non-duality" ?

If they have BECOME one with Brahman, how did they break away and return back to planet earth ?
Last edited by S.Valkan on 31 Mar 2007 09:20, edited 2 times in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 09:00

Alok_N wrote:
shiv wrote:
Acharya wrote:But there is a large silent mass which keeps the traditions and is not given a voice. If you search you will find it.


Acharya - the "silent mass" is an assumption. I have searched and found zilch/nada/shunya evidence of this.


Shiv, if I may add something to this ...

the problem is as follows ... the more one contemplates, the more withdrawn one gets ... the concept of sanyas is a natural outcome ... so, the jeopardy is that the section of population keeping the tradition alive is by definition "silent" ...

sivab is alluding to this also with his reference of "thousands in Chennai alone" ... if one person like sivab can attest to thousands, and I have no reason to doubt him, then imagine the real numbers out there ...

my own experience tells me that they are hard to find if one is looking for them, but if one keep's one's mind/heart/eyes open, they pop out of nowehere in your life ...

Please allow me a long rant.

I am not rabidly "against" the thought that the silent mass may exist and am not trying to disprove Acharya, you or SivaB on the point that such people are there.

My feelings tend to revolve around simple forces of evolution, what survives and what does not.

Between the time of my last post and this one I went for a 30 minute walk in Lalbagh. Somewhere in the woods I saw a solitary elderly man standing in front of a tree with his hands in the typical Hindu pose of greeting/prayer/contemplation - the namaste pose. He was lost within himself and to me, the first thought that crossed my mind, minutes after I had written a response to Acharya was "This man must be part of the silent mass"

The problem I see with assertions like "silent mass exists" and your statement "if one keep's one's mind/heart/eyes open, they pop out of nowhere in your life ." is that they are both indicators of faith and hope.

I am not saying that faith and hope are wrong. But I believe faith and hope are no substitute for action. The silent mass are silent because they are silent - and they have been silent too long. And they are steadily being silenced by action from others.

Once again - I speak as a doctor. I see seriously sick people who are basically heading towards death.They and their relatives come to me with faith and hope. It is my responsibility to take action. In many instances fate/God/whatever wills it that I am capable of taking some action within the limits of my training and experience. After I have taken all possible action to help the patient, I too have to sit back in faith and hope - and that faith and hope often bears fruit and the patient recovers. Very often, after major surgery, I do tell relatives that I have done all that is in my power, and will do anything more that I can that is within my power, but after that point we all have to wait for healing and recovery to occur. During this phase we all rely on faith and hope alone.

The relevance to this thread is "faith and hope" are great after you have taken all possible action to do what is in your power to reach a particular goal.

If you feel that Hindu minds are colonized and that the culture is under threat you have no business simply waiting with faith and hope until you have done all that you physically can to make sure that what is under threat is no longer under threat and what is colonized is uncolonized.

Can you or Acharya claim that? If not, then faith and hope may both be misplaced as the religions that rely on action will continue to act while those who wait with faith and hope will continue to wait as their past fades into history.

If it is in your power to act, you must act first, not remain silent, with faith and hope.
Last edited by shiv on 31 Mar 2007 09:05, edited 2 times in total.

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 996
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Postby sivab » 31 Mar 2007 09:02

S.Valkan: You can think whatever you want.

Last post on this.

Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 09:06

sivab wrote:Alok_N: Because if someone has not tasted sweetness no amount of bookish explanation about sweetness can give same understanding as eating one teaspoon of sugar.


do you have any distinctions between "contemplation" and "bookish knowledge" at all? ... I gather that you consider the latter in contempt? ... what about the former?

at the same time, even if you experience "sweetness" a million times, you will be no closer to conveying "sweetness" to someone else than if you had never experienced "sweetness" ever ...

Last post on this.


that is quite alright ...

Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 09:42

shiv wrote:If you feel that Hindu minds are colonized and that the culture is under threat you have no business simply waiting with faith and hope until you have done all that you physically can to make sure that what is under threat is no longer under threat and what is colonized is uncolonized.

Can you or Acharya claim that? If not, then faith and hope may both be misplaced as the religions that rely on action will continue to act while those who wait with faith and hope will continue to wait as their past fades into history.

If it is in your power to act, you must act first, not remain silent, with faith and hope.


well put and acknowledged as such ...

I must say that I am slowly awakening to the call for action ... realities of domestic life are constraints that one has to consider, but surely not succumb to ...

someone posted the concept of Dharma Yudh ... initially, I didn't latch on to that, but after viewing TSJ's posts, something is stirring ...

in some ways, in Gita terms, I am Kimkartavyavimoodh (unable to decipher one's course of action) ... this is the precise position where Arjuna found himself in before Sri Krishna removed doubt ...

I must say that I am awakened to action but the course of action is far from clear ....
Last edited by Alok_N on 31 Mar 2007 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

TSJones
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3022
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 09:43


If it is in your power to act, you must act first, not remain silent, with faith and hope.


Now you guys see why the medical practice is called the "healing art". And I mean that in the good way, not the bad.

Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 09:51

TSJones wrote:
If it is in your power to act, you must act first, not remain silent, with faith and hope.


Now you guys see why the medical practice is called the "healing art". And I mean that in the good way, not the bad.


I assume that the "good way" is that "Jesus will save yer ass" and the "bad way" is that "My snake oil will cure yer cancer" ...

heal thyself healer ... :)

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21166
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Postby Prem » 31 Mar 2007 09:55

Alok_N wrote:
TSJones wrote:
If it is in your power to act, you must act first, not remain silent, with faith and hope.


Now you guys see why the medical practice is called the "healing art". And I mean that in the good way, not the bad.


I assume that the "good way" is that "Jesus will save yer ass" and the "bad way" is that "My snake oil will cure yer cancer" ...

heal thyself healer ... :)


Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)said Trust Allah but tie the Camel . 8)

TSJones
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3022
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Postby TSJones » 31 Mar 2007 10:00

Alok_N wrote:
TSJones wrote:
If it is in your power to act, you must act first, not remain silent, with faith and hope.


Now you guys see why the medical practice is called the "healing art". And I mean that in the good way, not the bad.


I assume that the "good way" is that "Jesus will save yer ass" and the "bad way" is that "My snake oil will cure yer cancer" ...

heal thyself healer ... :)


Oh yer just jealous cuz you couldn't sell the idea of absolute zero to a crowd of tribals with malaria. :lol:

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 10:02

Someone classified Hindus into 3 groups. Let me post some thoughts on that - hopefully relevant to this thread.

It was said that Hindus can belong to groups A, B and C

Group A: a very small minority, understand are "realize" what Hindu thought is all about. They do not need God. they are on a different mental plane.

Group B: This group believe that it is possible and desirable to join group A but are not there yet.

Group C: vast majority. Runnin' on faith.

There is nothing in this classification that suggests that any particular groups is susceptible to evanjihadism.

The fundamental point is that a Group A person can emerge from a man who has been an evanjihadi all his life. Outward conversion to a faith does not touch a group A person internally.

Does a group A person belong to ANY religion?

Do only Hindus reach group A?

The only answer I have to these questions is "NO" to both.

In the ultimate reality of Hindu thought, religion is totally pointless. While that appears to be a strength, it can also be called a weakness.

It remains a strength as long as you understand and acknowledge the truth in there.

It becomes a weakness the minute you try to pin it down and say that a group A person is always Hindu. He can't be.

So what are Hindus trying to protect? What is worth protecting? It is worth protecting the Hindu intellectual property that guides you to become a completely fulfilled Group A human being.

In addition, the Hindu dharma has defined, centuries ago means of dealing with questions of existence, life, death, joy and sorrow and the universe in a unique way that gives you the choice of either using God as a prop, or action and service as a prop, or by rejecting all that and taking a third route and "realizing" the truth - after which you can do pretty much what you like with your life.

The thought process, the reasoning, the arguments and counter arguments need to be preserved, along with the freedom to express counter thoughts to existing thought. That is all that Hindus have, along with a rich accompaniment of stories, poems, literature, art, architecture, dance, music, science and culinary innovation.

There is so much that some losses have occurred and others are occurring even as we talk. Preservation means acting on keeping what we have.

Is this preservation occurring or not occurring?

Vishy_mulay
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 09 Feb 2007 09:21
Location: Melbourne

Postby Vishy_mulay » 31 Mar 2007 10:16

TSJ, did it hurt when I took a below belt shot? So much so that the great TSJ actually posted a illogical ranting reply (Ranting is defined as to speak or write in a angry or violent manner). May be you realised it and deleted your post. We SDF are continuously being assaulted by ignorant people like you for last 200 years . Do you now have some idea how we feel?

OTH will you please answer my query "Have you ever been to tribal and semi tribal areas of India?" Do you know anything about them?" Do you think they will be happy to have alcoholic and BPL life style as American Indians Enjoy with Hesus, ACs and toilets (great gift of EJs)? Sorry forgot to ask Have you ever been to any reservation area? Seen how original tribals of great land of free are treated? Can you spare some of your worries for your own countrymen?

Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 10:17

I seriously regret posting something about person A, B, C ... they were not meant to be "groups of society", just an allegorical example to make a point ... :(

rathi

Belonging, Freedom and Knowledge

Postby rathi » 31 Mar 2007 10:32

Some time lurker, first time postor.

Parts of this thread have been absolutely illuminating. And, I thank Shiv for raising some fascinating questions. I am not sure if Shiv achieved what he set out to do so, but it definitely made me spend some hours trying to organize the clutter in my mind.

Here is how I slice and dice the thoughts:

Strand 1 (a.k.a The Emotional strand ): I am attached to Hinduism because I was born into it. In spite of things in it which I might not agree or be upset about, I still cherish it because I belong to it, and it belongs to me. Its like the bonding I have with parents, siblings, relatives and friends; inspite of liking or disliking of certain traits or habits in them. They are mine, and I am theirs. So at times it leads to blind devotion, or performing rituals and practices that I do not have a firm understanding upon. I do not need to be qualified or mastered Sanskrit or any other language. I like something that I belong to, and belongs to me.

Strand 2 (a.k.a: The Freedom strand): The choices born out of the lack of rigidness offers plethora of opportunities and freedom for personal growth (and the religions too). If I don't resonate with something, I can always find something else in the religion that I resonate with and carry out my every day activities and life. It does not make me guilty. With that burden not hovering over me, I am able conduct my life the way I perceive to be the best. Cherry picking is not always bad. I pick what I consider the best and leave the things that I don't like. I do not need to be qualified, I do not need to have master Vedic or Classical Sanskrit, I do not need to have read all the scriptures, I do not have to visit temples and perform rituals. Well I can do so, but I can also not do so. I like what I practice and the freedom.

Strand 3 (a.k.a The Understanding strand): Once I started reading some of the English translations of the scriptures and commentaries, it begins to dawn upon me the magnificent thinking capacity of the ancestors. Each read of a text enthralls and fascinate me, even if I don't grasp all that is being said. The amount and quality of thoughts presented increases my respect towards the people involved. The cocktail of secular and religious offerings showcases some of the best aspects of the ancient culture and people. I like what I understand (which is only the tip of the iceberg).

Now, the three strands weave together to form a string to the religion - Hinduism. They nourish and nurture one another. It is not necessary to have all the three strands. Some have just one or all the three; and the strength of the strands depend on the individual. I have the freedom to conduct my life without having to understand or bonding. I can bond without having to understand. I can seek to understand without practicing or bonding. Sometimes my understanding increases the bonding.

From the emotional point of view, anything that seeks to ridicule or tarnish Hinduism is a threat.
From the choice point of view, anything that seeks to reduce the choice by introducing rigidity in way of life is a threat.
From the understanding point of view, anything that seeks to undermine or disconnect us from the vast and rich thoughts is a threat.

So what I would like to protect? The connection to an entity that offers a sense of belonging, freedom and great knowledge.

ps:
Now you realize why I don't post and just lurk. My mind is still cluttered :( .

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 10:41

Alok_N wrote:I seriously regret posting something about person A, B, C ... they were not meant to be "groups of society", just an allegorical example to make a point ... :(


Point taken and I will try and discourage further misinterpretation of your /temp folder content.

But a thought that occurred to me is what does a person who has realized the absolute truth do with his worldly existence after the event.

It turns out that many of those who have been there/done that (we have to take their word for it) end up saying and talking "good" things that are positive and helpful and seem to have knowledge, force and "pull" that makes their words heavy with wisdom.

Could the same people turn out to be harmful to human society? Or just bystanders who do nothing, good or bad.

It is possible I guess.

Would it ever be possible for a person who has realized the absolute truth to reason as follows:

"The only way humans of this world can stop having misery is for to conform to x rules (say Islam). Once everyone is there, they will be on the path to realization of the absolute. I will guide them from there"

If this can happen, the status, belief or action of a person who realizes the absolute need not be in consonance with the idea of "saving Hindu dharma".

Having people of any particular group or belief or state of mind is of no consequence to preserving Hindu dharma. All that is required is the intent to define what is "Hindu" and to act to preserve it.

Am I right or am I wrong? If wrong, why am I wrong.

Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 10:56

TSJones wrote:Oh yer just jealous cuz you couldn't sell the idea of absolute zero to a crowd of tribals with malaria. :lol:


oh, the idea was selling well, until one "tribal dude" asked, "please show us an example of absolute zero" ...

I had to apologize thusly, "TSJ is busy and can't be shown at short notice" ...
:)

pradeepe
BRFite
Posts: 741
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 20:46
Location: Our culture is different and we cannot live together - who said that?

Postby pradeepe » 31 Mar 2007 13:13

Wasn't sure. Pls let me know if not relevant. I'll delete.


Miracle nun: 'I wrote John Paul II's name and I was cured'

Saint?

Alok_N
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 19:32
Location: Hidden Gauge Sector

Postby Alok_N » 31 Mar 2007 18:08

adding further thoughts to this ...

shiv wrote:If you feel that Hindu minds are colonized and that the culture is under threat you have no business simply waiting with faith and hope until you have done all that you physically can to make sure that what is under threat is no longer under threat and what is colonized is uncolonized.

Can you or Acharya claim that? If not, then faith and hope may both be misplaced as the religions that rely on action will continue to act while those who wait with faith and hope will continue to wait as their past fades into history.

If it is in your power to act, you must act first, not remain silent, with faith and hope.


Shiv,

I have no problem with your characterization ... I can't speak for Acharya, but I certainly have not done anything to influence the situation ...

of course, there are issues of other responsibilities that keep me tied down, but then so does everyone else have similar issues ...

secondly, there are issues of capabilities ... you as a doctor provide healing ... in my profession, I encourage folks to seek gyaan ... the large disconnect is that I am parked in a country other than India ...

as has been clear to me for a long time that all I can do within the two constraints above is to write a book easily accessible to folks, as in essentially free ...

Once in a while, I have pushed Valkan to share the burden of the book project ... for me, typing away on the internet is practice in writing ... so, these threads do serve the purpose of dry runs ...

shiv wrote:Would it ever be possible for a person who has realized the absolute truth to reason as follows:

"The only way humans of this world can stop having misery is for to conform to x rules (say Islam). Once everyone is there, they will be on the path to realization of the absolute. I will guide them from there"

If this can happen, the status, belief or action of a person who realizes the absolute need not be in consonance with the idea of "saving Hindu dharma".

Having people of any particular group or belief or state of mind is of no consequence to preserving Hindu dharma. All that is required is the intent to define what is "Hindu" and to act to preserve it.

Am I right or am I wrong? If wrong, why am I wrong.


I have no claims to absolute knowledge, so I will be careful in my reply ...

contemplation of the absolute leads one to realize the contours of truth ... contour is a wrong word, just like "attributes" is a wrong word -- they are all limiting ... which is why the Japanese use the word Mu, which essentially is meaningfull and meaningless simultaneously ...

but, if you allow me to employ such terminology, I would state that pursuing the absolute leads one to humility and compassion ... in that state of mind, it is near impossible to "defend" something actively because the defence is by necessity a violent act in the mind ...

at the same time, there is no indication that acceptance of a limiting doctrine (such as Islam) is an outcome either ...

so what is the essence?

this is the part where it gets difficult ... I will address this in a later post ...

Vishy_mulay
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 09 Feb 2007 09:21
Location: Melbourne

Postby Vishy_mulay » 31 Mar 2007 18:33

Shivji, Change is the only constant in human life. There were/are and will be changes in SD. Some changes came due to external aggression (Ejs, Ljs,Ijs), some changes were natural progression (linguistic changes) and some were forced by Law of the land (prevention of polygamy, inheritance for daughters). Many changes were good and had positive impact on SD.
To have change, you need freedom of thoughts. I believe that the more sects any religion has, the more evolved it is due to presence of debate and differences. Hence I welcome all different schisms in SD.
Taking into account these two points, should we be afraid of changes in SD? Do we really have idea about what changes are good and what changes are bad? Do we as SDF really understand our heritage? Is it worth preserving or should it be allowed to evolved?
Do you think if world becomes one faith one book one prophet (IJs and EJs wet dream), will independent thought process survive? Will type A person (as characterised by you) will be allowed to thrive? Corollary even though SD don't have monopoly for reaching group A level, can it provides buffer for all others who believe that there are alternate pathways irrespective of what RELIGION says.

JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Postby JwalaMukhi » 31 Mar 2007 18:36

Have seen usage of word ‘idol’ worshipper quite liberally. IMHO some of the translation of the word [b]“idolâ€

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 19:05

Vishy_mulay wrote:Taking into account these two points, should we be afraid of changes in SD? Do we really have idea about what changes are good and what changes are bad? Do we as SDF really understand our heritage? Is it worth preserving or should it be allowed to evolved?
Do you think if world becomes one faith one book one prophet (IJs and EJs wet dream), will independent thought process survive? Will type A person (as characterised by you) will be allowed to thrive? Corollary even though SD don't have monopoly for reaching group A level, can it provides buffer for all others who believe that there are alternate pathways irrespective of what RELIGION says.


All difficult questions, but I believe I thrive in an environment in which things are happening and I don't know what is happening and am not sure if something that is happening is good or bad.

In such a situation it pays to indulge in a bit of reductionism

a)What is it that people are alleging is being lost? Define that if possible. If you can define it - target what you have defined as valuable for preservation fisrt. Preseervation will have to be memes - humanmemory, books, electronic media

2) If we are unable to say what exactly is being lost, preserve and document anything and everything - like pieces from an archeological site - for future classification into usefulor useless.

3) Define threats accurately. Unless threats are defined with some accuracy, remedies may go waste targeting non threats. or minor threats are targeted while major ones are ignored.

Of these three routes, I see plenty of bandwidth, fire, brimstone and agni being expended on point number 3 - "Evanjihadis", "islamists" "Leftists", "secularsts", "Sonia Gandhi", 'The UPA govenrment", The Vatican, US churches, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indian education

I also see a great deal of lamentation saying that things are lost, or things are preserved by hidden people, or that no one is bothered.

Very little attention is being paid to the obvious surge of Hindu presence and clout on the ground in India. I believe there are things that are notable about the Hindu surge because the "surge" may achieve some goals and prevent the loss of some things, but there may be other things that are being lost. Those losses may have little to do with any of the threats that I have named above.

For example TV is killing off traditional village dance and dramam grousp that kept tradition alive in rural India. The TV programming is very Indian- all sari clad women doing "Saas bhi kabhi bahu thi", so you can't blame Sonia or evanjihadis, and the many of the private TV channels are Indian channels paid by Indian ads. We love that and we hate the government and doordarshan. But nobody seems to mention the fact that the fast disappearing village dance and drama groups are aired only on the hated Doordarshan, largely controlled by the pseudosecular UPA, Ironic isn't it.?
This is what I mean by defining threats more accurately, and even before that is done - see what stes can be taken to preserve.

If you are an Indian NRI - get a video camera - go to a puppet show in a village dramatizing the Ramayana, record it and distribute it freely. Do not get worried by US concerns of intellectual property. It is yours.

Do not be embarrassed by booboos, dirt, gaudiness or shoddiness. That the the dhimmi in you that makes you feel those things.

Just a few thoughts.
Last edited by shiv on 31 Mar 2007 19:31, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 19:22

If you are not already doing it, purchase a Hindu calendar.

Get acquainted with Hindu months and seasons, Frankly - if you live in Indi - only that will get you in tune with the "pulse" of India because the calendar is tuned to the seasons and food production.

Document the festival that your household celebrates. Document the particular special dishes that are made in your house. Document the remedies, the superstitions and the curse words.

I mean document - i.e write the fcking thing down somewhere and make is accessible - an act that Hindus have never been good at.

If there are any specialprayers said or slokas that have been drummed into your head. Write them down - in English if need be. Just write it down. There are often different versions and minor differences in the same chant.

Ask for explanations and write them down. Weddings, naming ceremonies, deaths, post-death rituals, house-warming ceremonies, other ceremonies. There is so much to be documented but the average educated Hindu does not actually write these down and depends on some unknown entities to preserve. That is a mistake. It's up to you now. Spend the energy you have to curse Sonia in doing some serious documentation and record keeping of YOUR family. Write down a geneaological chart. Where was grandpappy from? What did he do? What about his grandparents? Where was their village? Were they displaced?

Will post more as I think of it.
Last edited by shiv on 31 Mar 2007 19:35, edited 3 times in total.

Vishy_mulay
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 09 Feb 2007 09:21
Location: Melbourne

Postby Vishy_mulay » 31 Mar 2007 19:24

Shiv wish we had few more thousand people like you who do not hesitate to speak in certain terms in these uncertain days. I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to bring this threads focus to identify what forum members take on problems with SD (if there are any). Without understanding problems of SD, it is impossible to think about possible remedies. I have not seen serious talk about inner reflections of SDF. I have also been getting involved into pot shot matches (TSJ seriously your posts are offending without any concrete understanding about Dalits and tribals of India and I retaliated) and frankly that is not what this thread is about. Dont know whether this thread will achieve its potential as serious cathartic debate process is missing.

Calvin
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Postby Calvin » 31 Mar 2007 19:32

Shiv:

When you talk about preservation of dance and other cultural aspects of life, these are concerns that generally cut across religions. For example, even vernacular literature and poetry is under "assault" by the mass media. Perhaps an analogy is McDonalds vs. McJihad.

It appears that this is a discussion of conservatism vs. progressives - although not in the usual sense of those words - rather than of religion alone.

There is so much to be documented but the average educated Hindu does not actually write these down and depends on some unknown entities to preserve. That is a mistake. It's up to you now. Spend the energy you have to curse Sonia in doing some serious documentation and record keeping of YOUR family. Write down a genaeological chart. Where was gnanpapy from? What did he do? What about his grandparents? Where was their village? Were they displaced?


These are all very relevant actions that individuals can take. However, as I read this, I wonder if the relevance is restricted to the Hindu. It appears to me that many Indians, of even the non-subcontinental religions, tend expend much more energy in speech rather than in such action and documentation. In fact, so much of geneology is oral, and in many cases, the younger generation (including myself) tend to ridicule the pastime of the elders of joining the dots of who is related to whom, where they came from etc.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2007 19:42

Calvin wrote:Shiv:

When you talk about preservation of dance and other cultural aspects of life, these are concerns that generally cut across religions. For example, even vernacular literature and poetry is under "assault" by the mass media. Perhaps an analogy is McDonalds vs. McJihad.

It appears that this is a discussion of conservatism vs. progressives - although not in the usual sense of those words - rather than of religion alone.


Like I said Calvin - "think archeological site". Document, record and preserve. Analyse and judge later.

I think there has been too much analysis and not enough documentation. Too many conclusions with a little data and no visble effort to collect data that should have been collected for decades.

Heck the government is supposed to clean the bullshit outside my house. If the government does not do it - I curse - for a while, but after that I clean it or my kids will be walking into my house with that bullshit on their shoes.

Whether the government is pseudosecular or not, people have to get a grip on what is being lost and what must not be lost and start recording it.

Conservative or not, nobody should have any problem with documentation.

Calvin
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Postby Calvin » 31 Mar 2007 19:49

I don't disagree. I am just saying that these concerns are "secular" in nature - in that people of all types, all religions, all literary interests will support.


Return to “Religion Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest