Religion Thread - 6

ramana
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Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2007 20:50

shiv wrote:
HariC wrote:If i may ask the experts here.

What is the rationale behind the earlier thought that crossing the oceans would make a hindu lose his religion? This practice existed till the eighteenth or the nineteenth century.


Don't know the exact answer but may be related to the mlechcha factor. My grandfather was ostracized by his family for travelling abroad in the early 1900s. Not that he cared.


In particular its sea travel. I think it is related to the rise of Islam and Arabic control of sea trade. They preferred trading with their co-religionists and sea faring Hindus had to change their ways to survive. If you note there were no restrictions on land travel till much later.

Anyways it s fruitful area of research. One can read up on the sacred texts site and also ask the 'lamented' dharmacharyas for guidance too.

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Postby SaiK » 30 Mar 2007 20:54

shiv, regarding the thali.. the tradition is purely for accounting purposes, and to help those handicap persons (think one is blind). normally, leaf servings are done in hundreds.. hence they came with an agree pattern, sope its easy on eyes to monitor, and see who is not gotten (you have to think about many people, who feels shame to ask for food), hence a pattern would help identify for the people who serve to ask if the person needs more food?

furthermore, a blind can easily find where what is kept. so is the reason for Indian Currency size are different to cater to blind.

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Postby svinayak » 30 Mar 2007 20:58

SRoy wrote:
Guru's are doing a great work here, but in a wrong fora. It is a strategic forum and primary objective should be to deduce threats and dangers to national security arising out of organized religious denominations.


How long will it take people to understand and learn. There are different forums for discussing religous practices.

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Postby Alok_N » 30 Mar 2007 21:01

religious beliefs enter in subtle manners in science ... for example, Big Bang Cosmology is in consonance with "creation" ...

physicists may argue with "creationists" about the mechanics of creation, i.e., it is a 14 billion year process versus 6 days ... however, they still have a linear model at heart ...

some others are inclined to think of "endless and beginningless", or cyclic, models ... here's a good read:

http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/cyclintro/

In this context, a new paradigm has been recently proposed by Paul Steinhardt (Princeton) and Neil Turok (Cambridge) - the cyclic universe - that turns the conventional picture topsy-turvy. (Perhaps the model should be called an old paradigm since it reinvigorates ancient cosmic mythologies and philosophies, albeit using the tools of 21st century physics.) In this picture, space and time exist forever. The big bang is not the beginning of time. Rather, it is a bridge to a pre-existing contracting era. The Universe undergoes an endless sequence of cycles in which it contracts in a big crunch and re-emerges in an expanding big bang, with trillions of years of evolution in between.


another partner in crime ... :)
Last edited by Alok_N on 30 Mar 2007 21:13, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2007 21:04

I humbly beg to differ. One has to realize where one stands before one chalks up plans to combat others. I submit that this thread has to go a few more interations say three more before we get to that aspect. And even then there will be unrealized souls participating and throwing it off track.

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Postby shiv » 30 Mar 2007 21:11

Acharya wrote:
SRoy wrote:
Guru's are doing a great work here, but in a wrong fora. It is a strategic forum and primary objective should be to deduce threats and dangers to national security arising out of organized religious denominations.


How long will it take people to understand and learn. There are different forums for discussing religous practices.


I think ramana is right.

Out of sheer curiosity I am asking anyone to point me to any forum that discusses threats to Hindus that does not digress the way this thread has done. I will visit that forum to learn how they do it.

I do not believe that such a forum can exist - and I will eat my words when I see it.

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Postby TSJones » 30 Mar 2007 21:19


elephants crap can give you the best shot of antibiotics & vitals ever.. this is serious if you are caught in wilderness no were to go and eat, need to survive, squeeze elephant's sh!t into your mouth.. you can walk 20 miles. baby elephants eats mother's crap as the first shot after being born.. its more than colustrum.


:eek: :shock: :lol:

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Postby Alok_N » 30 Mar 2007 21:28

where did elephant crap enter the picture? :(

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Postby shiv » 30 Mar 2007 21:46

Kumar wrote: If a ritual or karma, can start having effect just by ritualising, then it is possible to 'assign' a deemed utility to any ritual, and if properly 'assigned' that ritual gains a life and utility by itself, and not only in mental domain, but can apply to physical domain too.


I guess you are right.

Ritual too can be a form of devotion.

But the layers upon layers upon layers of ritual are complex and non-transparent. I have, from time to time."utilized" the services of someone I know to translate and write down the meanings of some rituals

They are important in that they play a role in Hindu life, but one of the questions I had was that could a demographic Islamic invasion or evanjihadi efforts have any serious effect on what I perceive (perhaps mistakenly) as a decline in the proportion of people who are aware of the origin and purpose of Hindu ritual.

Perhaps this decline (if present) could be blamed on Evanjihadis and Islamists of history (from centuries ago) for having upset Hindus lifestyles consistently for millennia leading to a near fatal decline in the continuity of "informed Hindu practice" as opposed to practice for the sake of tradition.

The reason I ask this is that if my suspicion is right - fighting evanjihadis and islamists today will have no effect on the continued decline of Hinduism. The decline can only be arrested by internal self correction. If evanjihadism/Islamis are to be fought at all - that must be done in specific areas where they may have some influence.

The big assumption I am making here is that Hinduism is in decline because I am getting an (personal) impression of a paucity of people with real understanding and knowledge, and a huge majority of questioners seeking answers. Is my impression mistaken?

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Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2007 21:58

Alok_N wrote:where did elephant crap enter the picture? :(


saiK, in a fit of saiitis brought this into the discussion.

saiitis- a condition ocassionally inflicting members who post in cryptic language which is familiar to them as C programmers and drives the others up the walls. Named after one member- Sai who I thought left us or got reformed.

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Postby Prem » 30 Mar 2007 22:02

S.Valkan wrote:
negi wrote:Valkan ji would you please care to elaborate what do you mean by the term 'God' at least in the context of whatever you have posted.


The "God" in quotes refer to the Judeo-Christian concept of an extra-cosmic entity that "created" this universe out of nothing.

1.Why did God create universe and Mankind(specailly the ones who debate 'God's very existence)

2.If the same God is responsible for creating Hindus,Christians and Muslims then what exactly are we discussing over here ? that it is my idea of God which is more accurate than yours (other religion) or something similar ?


Those are questions better asked of someone that believes in a singular act of "creation".


In SD, God did not create but constructed or set the stage for material universe and its controling laws ( Srishti and Rachna havd differenet meaning).

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Postby Alok_N » 30 Mar 2007 22:10

Prem wrote: In SD, God did not create but constructed or set the stage for material universe and its controling laws ( Srishti and Rachna havd differenet meaning).


my limited knowledge on such subjects has it that the Hindu model for time is also cyclic, consisting of Yugas, supercycles etc ...

does this model admit a "zero" of time? ... all I have seen are estimates of when the present cycle started ... is there any mention of number of cycles prior to the present one? ...

a zero of time is essential for "creation" ...

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Postby svinayak » 30 Mar 2007 22:15

shiv wrote:

The big assumption I am making here is that Hinduism is in decline because I am getting an (personal) impression of a paucity of people with real understanding and knowledge, and a huge majority of questioners seeking answers. Is my impression mistaken?


The only assumption correct is that the education and media puts down the discussion of Hindu religion and practices in the last 30 years. This is due to entire generation educated on the fake 'secular/marxist' education who now control the education and media desk of the country. It is as simple as that.

But there is a large silent mass which keeps the traditions and is not given a voice. If you search you will find it.

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Postby svinayak » 30 Mar 2007 22:24

shiv wrote:
Out of sheer curiosity I am asking anyone to point me to any forum that discusses threats to Hindus that does not digress the way this thread has done. I will visit that forum to learn how they do it.

I do not believe that such a forum can exist - and I will eat my words when I see it.


Shiv, No offense but everybody who is participating in this forum is a product of indoctrination and mass media propaganda including you(at least for 50 years if not for 80 years). The first one is due to marxist education and the later is due to media under the control of western powers.

Please take no offense on my next para.
Now your post shows classic symptom of an brainwashed person who even though is a Hindu is thinking and visualizing Hindu practices based on what you read and hear in the media and school textbook. Your views can be used for a classic study of social transformation due to education and media indoctrination.

This is where the problem is. We need a person who is in a bubble and not contaminated to discuss such topics.

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Postby Prem » 30 Mar 2007 22:25

shiv wrote:
Acharya wrote:
SRoy wrote:
Guru's are doing a great work here, but in a wrong fora. It is a strategic forum and primary objective should be to deduce threats and dangers to national security arising out of organized religious denominations.


How long will it take people to understand and learn. There are different forums for discussing religous practices.


I think ramana is right.

Out of sheer curiosity I am asking anyone to point me to any forum that discusses threats to Hindus that does not digress the way this thread has done. I will visit that forum to learn how they do it.

I do not believe that such a forum can exist - and I will eat my words when I see it.


Sharing of thoughts, emotions and concerns is nececessary for sense of belonging and earning eact others trust before going to battlefield. 8)

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Postby SaiK » 30 Mar 2007 22:25

jee ramana, you made me a disease!.. rhymes with mastitis... but, God can be in there too. :)

btw, it was actually crap got it into god, err.. god became crap, sorry.. god is in crap too.

another thing.. just met a Xtian.. and his convictions.. and he goes on.. God Came to him, and told him.. it was a revelation~.. he is now in good spirits.
God saved him.

how does one qualify such feelings?

re-incarnation of "Sai" :wink: (kidding/ramana)

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Postby Prem » 30 Mar 2007 22:39

Alok_N wrote:
Prem wrote: In SD, God did not create but constructed or set the stage for material universe and its controling laws ( Srishti and Rachna havd differenet meaning).


my limited knowledge on such subjects has it that the Hindu model for time is also cyclic, consisting of Yugas, supercycles etc ...

does this model admit a "zero" of time? ... all I have seen are estimates of when the present cycle started ... is there any mention of number of cycles prior to the present one? ...

a zero of time is essential for "creation" ...


Who said anything about creation ? :P
The material world has existed for ever as one of the manifestations of Supreme reality. What is there to gain by counting the numbers of cycles? Zero is our own limitation , imagine pre-zero /Nirgun where there is no Breath ,no Mind , no Thought , no Light and no Darkenss i.e move beyond the conceptional stage and experience( not observe) "THAT" as it is .

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Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2007 22:42

Gawd, I thought we lost you or you got reformed! Anyway glad to see you reincarnated! This version lapses into old habits only ocassionally. The previous one was quite stressful!

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Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2007 22:51

Also as SBN writes in his article Indians are the products of two colonizations.

With respect to us Indians, there is one thing we need to constantly keep in mind. We are the products of two colonialisms: the Islamic and the British. True, we were overrun by many other conquerors, but they did not colonize us. Colonialism is not merely about conquering territories, ruling over people and extracting revenues. It is a far more inhuman process, involving violence of all sorts: from the purely physical to the purely psychic. Colonialism alters the way we look at the world and it displaces native ways of experiencing the world through sheer violence. To the colonized, there is no simple or naïve return to the lost world possible. Colonization forever changes the world of the colonized. Though tragic and reprehensible, this is what colonialism does and we need to understand this truth about ourselves in the first place.

If Islamic colonialism damaged the transmission of our culture, British colonialism, building further on this result, introduced a new framework for experiencing the world. More than that, it also introduced a new way of talking about our experience of the world. This framework told us many new things about ourselves: we were backward and primitive, steeped in superstition, and dominated by antiquated structures. The British taught us too what these structures were: the caste system was the Indian social structure and ‘Hinduism’, ‘Buddhism’, ‘Jainism’, ‘Sikhism’ etc. were our religious structures. For reasons I cannot go into here, Indians took to this way of talking about themselves the way ducks take to water.

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Postby SaiK » 30 Mar 2007 22:56

sorry ramana.. got into habits of using abstract sentences.. that helps me post faster than .. & convey more than.. required. perhaps i lack the skills of the greater kinds valkan, kumar alok shiv et al.

i dunno i can reform.. but if we can refine, especially those that helps ward of EJs, and thats where I was focusing. when i get silence, i was thinking my posts were just there and nobody cares.. never thought it could cause wide band disturbances.

let me work on it .. its a growth anyway (evolution in me) :wink: .

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Postby SRoy » 30 Mar 2007 22:58

ramana wrote:Also as SBN writes in his article Indians are the products of two colonizations.

With respect to us Indians, there is one thing we need to constantly keep in mind. We are the products of two colonialisms: the Islamic and the British. True, we were overrun by many other conquerors, but they did not colonize us. Colonialism is not merely about conquering territories, ruling over people and extracting revenues. It is a far more inhuman process, involving violence of all sorts: from the purely physical to the purely psychic. Colonialism alters the way we look at the world and it displaces native ways of experiencing the world through sheer violence. To the colonized, there is no simple or naïve return to the lost world possible. Colonization forever changes the world of the colonized. Though tragic and reprehensible, this is what colonialism does and we need to understand this truth about ourselves in the first place.

If Islamic colonialism damaged the transmission of our culture, British colonialism, building further on this result, introduced a new framework for experiencing the world. More than that, it also introduced a new way of talking about our experience of the world. This framework told us many new things about ourselves: we were backward and primitive, steeped in superstition, and dominated by antiquated structures. The British taught us too what these structures were: the caste system was the Indian social structure and ‘Hinduism’, ‘Buddhism’, ‘Jainism’, ‘Sikhism’ etc. were our religious structures. For reasons I cannot go into here, Indians took to this way of talking about themselves the way ducks take to water.


Acharya is the only person that shares this view with me...at least openly. Lets see how this thread goes.

I suspect Shiv can also see that, but he playing the devil's advocate at the moment.

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Postby Prem » 30 Mar 2007 23:06

SRoy wrote:
ramana wrote:Also as SBN writes in his article Indians are the products of two colonizations.

With respect to us Indians, there is one thing we need to constantly keep in mind. We are the products of two colonialisms: the Islamic and the British. True, we were overrun by many other conquerors, but they did not colonize us. Colonialism is not merely about conquering territories, ruling over people and extracting revenues. It is a far more inhuman process, involving violence of all sorts: from the purely physical to the purely psychic. Colonialism alters the way we look at the world and it displaces native ways of experiencing the world through sheer violence. To the colonized, there is no simple or naïve return to the lost world possible. Colonization forever changes the world of the colonized. Though tragic and reprehensible, this is what colonialism does and we need to understand this truth about ourselves in the first place.

If Islamic colonialism damaged the transmission of our culture, British colonialism, building further on this result, introduced a new framework for experiencing the world. More than that, it also introduced a new way of talking about our experience of the world. This framework told us many new things about ourselves: we were backward and primitive, steeped in superstition, and dominated by antiquated structures. The British taught us too what these structures were: the caste system was the Indian social structure and ‘Hinduism’, ‘Buddhism’, ‘Jainism’, ‘Sikhism’ etc. were our religious structures. For reasons I cannot go into here, Indians took to this way of talking about themselves the way ducks take to water.


Acharya is the only person that shares this view with me...at least openly. Lets see how this thread goes.

I suspect Shiv can also see that, but he playing the devil's advocate at the moment.


MMS 's speech at Oxford must be the product of this phenomenon .

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Postby Bade » 30 Mar 2007 23:08

Alok, Kumar et al.

What is more fundamental ?
The physical laws themselves or the abstract mathematics that help formulate the laws.

Which came first ?
Does the abstractions of mathematics which in principle does not require a physical instance for its existence be considered equivalent to SJA?

Does the abstractions of mathematics evolve with the creation/cycling of space-time or it exists independently ?

"Me head hurts" already. :lol:

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Postby S.Valkan » 30 Mar 2007 23:08

SriKumar wrote:Agreed that it is difficult to objectively measure happiness and I cannot supply proof, but would you not agree that there are swamijis/yogis who own nothing and are happy?


I think a lot of confusion still persists on the question of Ananda, as also some claims regarding the "practical" means to attain that state of Ananda.

Why do we seek Ananda ?

Let's deal with an example.

No-one is irritated that the eyeball is in the eye-socket, or that eyes see,- it is all natural.

But the moment, we have a speck of dust in our eye, we cannot stand it,- the condition is unnatural, and must be gotten rid of.

Similarly, no-one complains if one is Blissful.

But as soon as there is Sorrow, we feel that it is unnatural, and that we must do something to remove it.

If Ananda was just a thought/experience like Sorrow, then what difference does it make if we experienced Bliss or Sorrow ?

We seek Bliss/Ananda because that is our natural state of being.

The moment we experience limitations, we feel unhappy, and feel an urge to change the situation.

When a person says "I want" this or that to be happy, what that person really means is that the limitation troubles him, and all he really wants is to be free of all wants.

To say "I want" is really to say "I don't want to have any wants".

In other words, the fundamental problem is the sense of limitation and lack of Bliss, and the consequent desire to overcome limitation and attain Bliss.

This is crucial to understand,- without correctly identifying the problem, it is impossible to identify the solution.

How to overcome limitation ?

Simple, says one and all,- DO something to BECOME infinite.

Right ? :)

If you read books, ask people, a myriad of solutions are presented to you :

1) Chant, and be happy

2) Meditate and be happy

3) Raise your Kundalini up from Muladhara to Sahasrara, and be happy.

4) Do devotional service and be happy

5) 'Merge' with Brahman in Yogic Samadhi and be happy

and so on...

The question is, how do you BECOME infinite ( Ananta ) ?

You KNOW you are finite, and all your actions are finite.

Finite + Finite can NEVER be infinite.

So, can you EVER become Infinite ?

No, right ?

But, some "practical" advisors in this forum will say that "through Yoga and Samadhi" you can EXPERIENCE the Infinite Bliss, the Anantam-Brahman-Anandam.

What does that tell you ?

There was a chocolate bliss, an icecream bliss, a trip-to-Bahamas/Maui-bliss, and so on that you experienced in all these years, and now - to get enlightened - you have that one more bliss to experience,- Brahman-Bliss.

All you have to do is to blank out all thoughts through some techniques or some intoxicant ( yeah! ), and - presto - Brahman-bliss will be there in all glory!

Well, how do you KNOW that it is Brahman-bliss ? Does the Bliss come and identify itself "I am Brahman-bliss" like the mythical burning-bush did to Moses ?

So, why is it any different from the Bliss you 'experience' after copulating with the most beautiful maiden, or eating the most scrumptious meal etc ?

Well, says the advisor,- it is different because there is no thought when you experience it.

This is strange,- it means that where Thought is, Brahman is not, and vice versa.

Well, Brahman is Purnam, or the Whole. So how can "thought" be outside the Whole ?

Now, when my Samadhi ends, I am back to square one,- limited and Unhappy.

So, obviously, what I experience did nothing to end my problem.

Now, we already saw that you CANNOT become Limitless.

So, what's the solution ?

Well, let's see if we got the PROBLEM correct.

The Problem is that I don't know who 'I' am, and incorrectly identify myself with 'objects' of my knowledge,- body( I am tall), senses(I am near-sighted), mind(I am unhappy), intellect( I am successful) and so on.

In other words, the problem is one of Ignorance.

And ignorance can only be removed by knowledge.

The FACT that I am already Satyam-Jananam-Anantam does not help me, because I am ignorant of it.

The KNOWLEDGE that 'I am Satyam-Jnanam-Anantam Brahman' will dispel that ignorance about my Self, and remove the root problem of my unhappiness ( I am limited ).

The Swamis/Yogis who are happy without having anything - as pointed bout by SriKumar - are so because they have ATTAINED this knowledge.

It is knowledge alone that liberates. 'Sa Vidya Ya Vimuktaye'.

That is why the Gita says,- "Na hi Jnanena Sadrisham Pavitram iha vidyate" [ There is nothing as purifying as knowledge ]

I hope it clarifies any doubt at least for some people.
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Postby SaiK » 30 Mar 2007 23:10

Alok_N wrote:in my childhood, I saw 3rd rate miracle making like vibhuti appearing on Sai Baba's picture etc ... didn't impress even a 6 year old ... :lol:

Alok, its true.. i believed it happened.. when I was 6-8.. but I was inquisitive to find out at what time God comes in and puts vibhuti.. and then it was those pink floyd days, "wall ..", I was listening in the night.. lights off, came in a swarm of NBC resistant creatures in the night.. climbed up "The Wall!" [whitewashed with construction Lime], and perhaps were in mass mutation.. eating & scratching "the wall".

the by products became vibhuti! Sai Baba enlightened me.. asked me if I understood maya!.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 30 Mar 2007 23:18

Acharya, I was interested in same points you raised. Many moons back I posted some semantic questions about systematic approach with which SD is defamed by mass media and no one bothers to counter it. Gora sahib realised that Western religions were not in same league with SD when it comes to philosophical thought process. Hence they had to put other more evolved though processes down to establish perceived western superiority. When raj disappeared, another zealous followers of one book, one prophet and singular believe system took over and that is Leftist. leftist and evangelicals are one and only. One believe in Bible, Jesus and one Biblical God, other believe in Communist Manifesto, Marx and zealously believe that God does not exist. Independent India saw these intellectually bankrupt leftist taking over and pushing their agenda of pseudo secularism zealously as Ejs push pseudo Christianity. No one on this forum wants to discuss it, analyse it and try to figure out way to counter it. Ej threat is real but not as bad as what leftist have done or in process of doing it with young generations. Assaults on SD is not from outside or other faiths. Its from inside with brain washed leftist (with strong Maoist movement its going to be very difficult future and I am really worried about it) and I don't see any resistance to Leftist agenda in Indian Education. Just my 2 cents and rants FWIW.
Kakaji and Alok thanks.

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Postby svinayak » 30 Mar 2007 23:26

Vishy_mulay wrote: Gora sahib realised that Western religions were not in same league with SD when it comes to philosophical thought process. Hence they had to put other more evolved though processes down to establish perceived western superiority.

This is the story of Indian COLONIZATION. That is why they did not have any problem in giving independence after they had setup the education with secular/Marxism.

When raj disappeared, another zealous followers of one book, one prophet and singular believe system took over and that is Leftist. leftist and evangelicals are one and only.
Independent India saw these intellectually bankrupt leftist taking over and pushing their agenda of pseudo secularism zealously as Ejs push pseudo Christianity.

Created by colonisers and Again supported from outside after independence.


No one on this forum wants to discuss it, analyse it and try to figure out way to counter it.

This should be main focus of this thread.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 30 Mar 2007 23:29

SRoy,
I do not consider Islamic colonization did sever damage since Hindu civilization was defeated by it but was not broken. We evolved to counter it. British did lot of social engineering in India which no one criticised for long time. Many Indians including our PM thinks raj brought good things to India but no one ask is that true? If true at what cost? and if not true what was the damage? No one in India is ready to take stock and find problems of colonization. Few people think about it and frankly majority just ignores it. Same is true with leftist. No one thinks about their agenda in modern India and how its going to affect all of us.

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Postby S.Valkan » 30 Mar 2007 23:36

Vishy_mulay wrote:Ej threat is real but not as bad as what leftist have done or in process of doing it with young generations.


You are directly contradicting Abhijit, who says 99% of Hindus are faithful, and will remain faithful.

What are the leftists ( communists ) doing ?

They are simply challenging the traditional beliefs, and 'educated' young people - who have no clue why their families do what they do ( and CAN'T get the answer from their family and friends ) fall prey to the Evanjihadis and /or communists.

Do you see any large section of Muslims falling prey to communists ? Why not ?

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Postby Bade » 30 Mar 2007 23:45

If one wants a revivalism the only way possible is to make it mandatory at the school level for a ancient Indic traditions class, which also implies Sanskrit as a language to be taught to all.

With equal emphasis on a science based approach to the rest of the curriculum we can be halfway there in enlightening a waste majority towards a national identity irrespective of religious affiliations.

This should prepare most to be free to think and choose whatever fancies one takes to for the pill to satiate their neurological shortcomings.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 30 Mar 2007 23:48

Valkan, How many Muslim leftist you know who survived long enough to project social engineering as a cool thing. Look at the media management of projecting pseudo secular being so cool and evolved (only applies to SDF). Everything related to SD is put down. Does that mean there are no problems in SD? yes there are many and I will be first to accept it. But is everything about my heritage is wrong? Was there anything good about my heritage which will make me feel proud? People are product of social acceptance. If an environment is created where my heritage is always put down, subconsciously I will not like to learn more about it. 99.999999999% people don't like to go to the bottom of the matter and believe in what is spoon fed. You asked me why Hindus are only vulnerable? my counter question is when in independent India Islam and Christianity were targeted as SD? when was social engineering applied to young Muslim and Christian generation so they feel inferior to others? Society is made up of people and its human tendency to be part of large group which it self is control by social engineering. It is only the family traditions which kept SD intact in this assault. I don't know whether that will be true in future.

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Postby SaiK » 30 Mar 2007 23:48

Well, Brahman is Purnam, or the Whole. So how can "thought" be outside the Whole ?


Is it not "timeless-ness" a "thought" process., if so, adding the time variable, you get "Whole" to be finite as well, given that "Whole is understood" {meaning, in my understanding of the infinite, once its understood, it becomes finite}. hence, the "thought process(time bound)" that Atman (more near to finite thoughts), and a well "understood(state of mind)" brahman (more near to infinite) are linked yogic meditation (again my understanding).

if thought is time bound, then "Whole" as to be time bound as well. hence, there is discrepancy in interpretation of bhraman = whole. perhaps its a partial one.

ps: i am assuming "timeless-ness" is an invalid theory.. i may be wrong. i am still thinking speed of light or the future fastest thing, is time bound as well.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 30 Mar 2007 23:56

Is it possible that we are so brain washed that we don't even perceive the subliminal attacks on SD? Every time I heard something bad about SD, my gut reaction used to be whats wrong with us? Now my first question who will benefit from this defamation of SD. Tangential thinking brings lot of interesting pieces of information in context of SDF social engineering. Am I paranoid? May be but then my heritage taught me to accept other peoples point of view way before Voltaire did.

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Postby pradeepe » 30 Mar 2007 23:59

Rakesh, Valkan,

Was reading a collection of teachings by Sri Paramahansa Yogananda. The context is one of trying to "still" ones mind as in eliminating all thoughts. He then makes a reference to pslam 46:10 - "Be still and know that I am GOD".

What is the "I" referring to here.

Thanks much.

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Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2007 00:08

Vishy_mulay wrote:May be but then my heritage taught me to accept other peoples point of view ...

may be we have to listen and not accept other peoples point of view.. it could start a new thought process perhaps validating your point or invalidating it. if you can externalize the outcomes, it might as well brain-wash others.

btw belated congrats on your dissertation approval.

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Postby RajeshG » 31 Mar 2007 00:10

ramana wrote:Also as SBN writes in his article Indians are the products of two colonizations.

With respect to us Indians, there is one thing we need to constantly keep in mind. We are the products of two colonialisms: the Islamic and the British. True, we were overrun by many other conquerors, but they did not colonize us. Colonialism is not merely about conquering territories, ruling over people and extracting revenues. It is a far more inhuman process, involving violence of all sorts: from the purely physical to the purely psychic. Colonialism alters the way we look at the world and it displaces native ways of experiencing the world through sheer violence. To the colonized, there is no simple or naïve return to the lost world possible. Colonization forever changes the world of the colonized. Though tragic and reprehensible, this is what colonialism does and we need to understand this truth about ourselves in the first place.

If Islamic colonialism damaged the transmission of our culture, British colonialism, building further on this result, introduced a new framework for experiencing the world. More than that, it also introduced a new way of talking about our experience of the world. This framework told us many new things about ourselves: we were backward and primitive, steeped in superstition, and dominated by antiquated structures. The British taught us too what these structures were: the caste system was the Indian social structure and ‘Hinduism’, ‘Buddhism’, ‘Jainism’, ‘Sikhism’ etc. were our religious structures. For reasons I cannot go into here, Indians took to this way of talking about themselves the way ducks take to water.


Ramana

IMO Balu described colonialism better here..

http://colonial.consciousness.googlepag ... traditions

This is the lot and daily life of cultures and peoples colonised by the western culture. The colonisation, as many have pointed out, was not merely a process of occupying lands and extracting revenues. It is not a question of us aping the western countries and trying to be like them. It is not even about colonising the imaginations of a people by making them 'dream' that they too will become 'modern', developed and sophisticated. It goes deeper than any of these. It is about denying the peoples and cultures their own experiences; of rendering them aliens to themselves; of actively preventing any description of their own experiences except in terms defined by the colonisers. This is the truth about what the Kakars and the Sarkars of my world sell, no matter how they package it, no matter how they market it.

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 00:28

pradeepe wrote: He then makes a reference to pslam 46:10 - "Be still and know that I am GOD".

What is the "I" referring to here.


I'll let Rakesh answer the question about his scripture.

However, if you think carefully, the operative clause is "know".

How do you know anything when your mind is blank, and no thoughts arise ?

You have to understand that both "I" and "God" are thoughts.

If no thoughts exist, how can "I am God" be known ?

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 00:37

SaiK wrote:Is it not "timeless-ness" a "thought" process.

ps: i am assuming "timeless-ness" is an invalid theory.


The usual misconception.

The concept is Tri-Kala Abadhitam ie. Uncontradicted in the three modes of time.

In other words, Brahman is uncontradictable at any time,- in Past, Present and Future.

Take a styrofoam cup.

If I ask you, what is the reality ? Does a cup exist, or styrofoam ?

Most people will say, both.

Now, if I break the cup up into pieces, and ask you the same question,- what is the answer ?

It is styrofoam only, no cup.

So, Styrofoam is uncontradicted in BOTH cases, but the "thought" ( form ) of cup arose in the first instant, and dissolved in the next instant ( so it is contradicted ).

Is Styrofoam there when the "cup" thought is there, or not ?

Or, is it ONLY there when the "cup" thought no longer exists ?

Similarly, why should you have to extinguish thought to "experience" Brahman or Purnam or Whole ?

It is ALWAYS there. It spans across time, and not bound to any instant of time, and HENCE timeless.

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Postby S.Valkan » 31 Mar 2007 00:43

Vishy_mulay wrote: Everything related to SD is put down. Does that mean there are no problems in SD? yes there are many and I will be first to accept it. But is everything about my heritage is wrong? Was there anything good about my heritage which will make me feel proud?


And who is to blame for the success of this social engineering ?

Shouldn't you KNOW what your heritage is ?

Can you tell a Muslim that everything about Islam is wrong ?

At the very least, he will laugh at you, and at worst threaten to kill you.

Why doesn't it work with Muslims ?

Because they know ENOUGH about their heritage to ward off such pestilence.

So, instead of blaming EJs and LJs( Left-jihadis ), why not raise the knowledge level of the Hindu society ?

Expose them to science/logic, and challenge them to prove the conclusions of Hinduism wrong, scientifically/logically. :)

After that, see what the Left-jihadis can do!

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Postby bala » 31 Mar 2007 00:49

I do not consider Islamic colonization did sever damage


This OT: but the damage of Islamic conquest and the forced conversion is manifest in today's TSP, BD and India's own Muslim population (which is one of the largest in the world). The British conquest did not increase Xtian influence that much nor did the Brits co-mingle with the population a la the French or other colonizers. Of course the economic damage caused by the Brits to India's world share of economic trade is huge.


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