Religion thread - 7

SaiK
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Post by SaiK »

I think better sense will prevail if we move our certain democratic formations from current majority and minority support kind of setup to issue based voting, and politics.

Lets take head count for each issue (that can be classified as required or deemed fit to be voted under issue based politics)... and proceed. Not all issues needs this. but something that triggers communal hatred, needs periodic voting in general at public booths all over India, and re-affirm their commitments towards a larger agreed policy.

and then all <SHUT TF UP>. this is insane, even bigger minds and experienced gurus of our laloo land that can preach harvad but can't think for genuine locals.
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Post by svinayak »

SaiK wrote:I think better sense will prevail if we move our certain democratic formations from current majority and minority support kind of setup to issue based voting, and politics.

Lets take head count for each issue (that can be classified as required or deemed fit to be voted under issue based politics)... and proceed. Not all issues needs this. but something that triggers communal hatred, needs periodic voting in general at public booths all over India, and re-affirm their commitments towards a larger agreed policy.

and then all <SHUT TF UP>. this is insane, even bigger minds and experienced gurus of our laloo land that can preach harvad but can't think for genuine locals.
Bhumiputras and cultural values needs respect and affirmation periodically.
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Post by SaiK »

Acharya, is that a question?

If yes, sadly its yes.. unfortunate evolutionary or karmic result of having a higher threshold for "tolerance".

lets see, how we shape up.
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Post by HariC »

shiv wrote:[

to a person who thinks that Hindus are against other faiths anyway. Just like that. ?
then why are we giving this said person the satisfaction of thinking he was right in the first place ?

I can give an example.

famous NDTV colonel comes on thsi board , does something to rile up our members and the thread goes into 9 pages. That guy is happy as hell.

That same colonel comes on this board to 'unglify' members, and everyone ignores him completely and dont give a ratshit about him.. Is he still laughing?

But then this is an internet fora and I am asking for the impossible...
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Post by vsudhir »

I can give an example.

famous NDTV colonel comes on thsi board , does something to rile up our members and the thread goes into 9 pages. That guy is happy as hell.

That same colonel comes on this board to 'unglify' members, and everyone ignores him completely and dont give a ratshit about him.. Is he still laughing?

But then this is an internet fora and I am asking for the impossible...
Ok.

The problem is 'ignoring' the lies (whether high-mindedly, out of patronizing indulgence, out of concern for not hurting other's sentiments or out of dhimmi considerations) has a downside.

Lies that go unchallenged long enough start acquiring the trappings of truthiness, conventional wisdom and so on until eventually they metastasize as.... historical fact ("hey, Presto!") (Lookup one Goebbels for references).

Secondly, tolerating the lies and the slander, which the yindoo has done
for far too long now, has gotten the yindoo what exactly?

Not tolerance in return, surely. Definitely not 'respect'. Or 'understanding'. Or dialogue. Just more demands, pushiness, shrillness and brazenness from the professional grievience establishment among the psecs, the marxists, the macaulayites and the theologically intolerant.

Standard disclaimers apply. IMVHO and JMT etc onlee.
/Have a nice day.
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Post by Raju »

HariC wrote:
then why are we giving this said person the satisfaction of thinking he was right in the first place ?

..
Probably because the said person is just a vehicle for channelizing wider resentment.
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Post by Sadler »

Acharya wrote:
Yes, I told my American boss once that only the Indian cow was holy and the American cow is not. Hence I can eat the American cow/beef. He was shocked and after that never made any statement about Hindu's at least in front of me.
:rotfl:

Good one. I heard the same once from an Indian friend.

Somehow, both porkis and EJs think that the very mention of "cow/beef" will send hindus into paroxysms of rage. And get the crap surprised outa them when the hindu comes back with a rather flippant answer. Way to go.
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Post by Johann »

Alok_N wrote:
Johann wrote: Alok,

I think we are talking past one another.

Religion's USP is not just about the ultimate nature/laws of the universe, which of course physics grapples with.

It also spends a lot of effort on the nature of consciousness, the origin of life, etc.
nice towel .. but no dice ... :)

the asertion, mispaced largely as it is, is that "religion" has anything of value to add to the debate about "origin of life" ...

sorry, you don't get such credit for zero effort ... prove that your so called "religion" indeed has something of value to add ...

else, deal with the fact that a Rastafarian, smoking some good ol' Afghani, has an equivalent amount to add to your understanding of origin of life ...
That is why I say those in esoteric physics are not the only scientists who are in a position to comment on various religion's degree of congruency with science.
"say" all sorts of crap you like ... but, then when it comes to providing evidence, crap such as yours fails the ultimate tests ... :lol:
Alok

Your militancy is once again misdirected as well as pointlessly and unfortunately personal - perhaps because you are making all the wrong assumptions about where I am coming from in this discussion.

I dont have a personal religion.

However all religions claim to answer a number of questions.

Your contention was that advanced physicists are the only scientific discipline fit to comment on religion's claims from a scientific point of view.

Once again, the point is not that religion has the answers that it claims to have- the point is that for example when it comes to a religion's standpoint on the origin of life it is biologists, doctors, etc not physicists are best placed to take on religion.

It isnt dark matter, but the predictions of germ theory, or watson and crick's prediction of the structure of DNA that establish creationism as nonsense. Similarly neurobiologists and cognitive science types are better placed to take on religious views on the nature of human consciousness.
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Post by JCage »

HariC wrote:
shiv wrote:[

to a person who thinks that Hindus are against other faiths anyway. Just like that. ?
then why are we giving this said person the satisfaction of thinking he was right in the first place ?

I can give an example.

famous NDTV colonel comes on thsi board , does something to rile up our members and the thread goes into 9 pages. That guy is happy as hell.

That same colonel comes on this board to 'unglify' members, and everyone ignores him completely and dont give a ratshit about him.. Is he still laughing?

But then this is an internet fora and I am asking for the impossible...
You have misread the incident in totality. First time, he even had people willing to hear him out, take his words as gospel because after all- like he told everyone repeatedly, he had served. Second time, people were not so charitable and some gave back as good as they got. But still- he managed. Third time- well, he got plastered nice and solid and he couldnt hide behind his uniform, as he had been shameless enough to do so the first couple of times around when he was shown to be wrong but promptly brought up his "service" to deflect any criticism of his statements. By the third-fourth time, even if he had used this tactic again- dont think it would have worked.

The point is simple, he wanted BR as a pulpit to preach his creed. But it didnt work. So off he went blogging and came to BR to get some "followers". That didnt work either. So he is silent. For now.

If there is a moral to this story, it is that turning the other cheek does not work, especially when the "other guy" is a jacka$$.

That holds particularly true whether one deals with NDTV colonels or ambulance chasers or evanjehadis or whatever.
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Post by Johann »

TSJones wrote:
I usually ask people if they *REALLY* believe Europe and the West today be struggling with poverty, disease, and technological catch-up today if it had never adopted Christianity?


Probably not. It was the monks who kept scholarship alive during the dark ages. They also preserved the ancient texts for the renaissance to study.
What happened to the many secular/Pagan academies that preceded the monks and which were the main institutions of learning?

Supressed by the Church, because the transmission of knowledge couldnt be left outside the church's control. Augustine, who received a classical Greco-Roman education believed that too much rational discourse was dangerous to the faith of the majority.

The emergence of universities all across Europe in the 12th century reversed that trend, making knowledge available to those outside the Church, and without close theological controls on debate.

So one must ask again - would the dark ages in W.Europe have been as dark without Christianity?
Last edited by Johann on 02 Apr 2007 22:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SaiK »

I have a new theory... All religious issues are basically due to self-interacting dark matters and self-repulsive dark energies.


:idea:
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Post by Kumar »

Am I the only one here with a boring lifestyle, i.e. with no meat, no eggs, no sea-food, no-alcohol, no smoke .... (definitely no beef)

I haven't had this strong "minority" feeling on this board before. Where are you my fellows in creed! Show yourself, and be counted! :)
Last edited by Kumar on 02 Apr 2007 23:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Raju »

Kumar wrote:Am I the only one here with a boring lifestyle, i.e. with no meat, no eggs, no sea-food, no-alcohol, no smoke ....
You are now "In a minority of one" :lol:
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Post by SaiK »

Kumar, when was your kind in majority!? :P
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Post by Kumar »

SaiK,

I guess during the peak of Jainism-Buddhism period.

My mom used to tell me not to disturb the plants or trees after dark, presumably because they were sleeping. And seeing someone hurting ants or turmites, even their eggs or mice or mice-babies etc would make her wince with utter discomfort.
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Post by Aditya_V »

Kumar, I am one your kind but we will always be a minority
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Post by S.Valkan »

Johann wrote: However all religions claim to answer a number of questions.
Undoubtedly.

However, there are two kinds of religions:

Type 1 which says "Here, take this faith capsule, and be satisfied. Don't ask questions, or you will be impaled with toothpicks in Hell when you die, and we will disptach you there right now in the most gruesome way contrivable".

Type 2 which says "do the analysis yourself, and verify if you come to this conclusion we reached. If you don't agree, choose a different answer available elsewhere."

Now, obviously, the INSTRUMENTS of knowledge available 5000 years ago did not include microscopes, telescopes, EM spectral analyser etc.

So, their instruments were Perception, Inference and Testimony.

Of the three, Perception and Testimony were subjective, but Inference was not.

Inference was considered most primary, because that was falsifiable to an extent through counter-logic by ANYONE willing to and capable of, etc.

So, the Type 2 religions definitely belong in a separate category.

Falsifying their grand conclusions about Absolute Reality must surely be done by Cosmologists and Particle Physicists who seek to answer, and uncover, precisely this same reality.

That's the basic point.

I won't discuss your point on consciousness because the word consciousness in English is nowhere close to the notion of Cit/Chaitanya/Prajna in Sanskrit.

When like magnetic poles are brought close to each other, they repel each other.

Do they have neurobiological appoaratus ?

How are they "aware" of the existence of a like pole ?

When there is a change of temperature, the thermostat reacts. How ? It doesn't have a brain to be aware of temperature changes.

The deeper you go into the orbital and spin structure, you will be further amazed at their "awareness". The EPR paradox is a case in point.

People who seek neurobiological explanations for Cit don't perhaps realize that.

Lastly, the Type 2 religions like Vedanta don't have problems with the "scientific" explanations, beginning with cosmic, and later earthly and evolutionary details.

If you look the "evolution" of life on earth, is it simply a faster mutation than the evolution/mutation of the earthly constituents like say river beds and coastal patterns ( which resemble fractals etc )etc.

Everything is changing to a different degree, some subtly, some blatantly.

The Vedantic concept of "evolution" is not restricted to "life", but of everything, like a reverse Asvattha tree - through a process called Vivarta, where the change is merely in form, not substance.

This is very much like how all evolutionary mutations can be conceptually described as a form of Julia Set F(x) = x-square + C, where C is the indeterminate constant of complexity introduced by the system at every iteration.

Image

And the constant of complexity is introduced due to spontaneous breaks in symmetry of the scalar field.

Which discipline of science will this fall under for falsification or verification ?

Ultimately, at both macroscopic or microscopic level, it is in the domain of Cosmology and Quantum Physics, no ?

The "theories" of intermediate steps using genetic algorithms are - although definitely interesting at the practical level - serve really no purpose at the ultimate level of reality under consideration.
Last edited by S.Valkan on 02 Apr 2007 23:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mort Walker »

Kumar,

As long as you are not a vegan, that is you do not eat any animal products including dairy, then you are not in a minority, at least not in India.

On the pork and beef issue. I was at a Pizza Hut in Indore, MP last year and pepperoni was offered as a toping. I really like pepperoni and sure enough ordered it as a toping on my pizza. The waiter came back in a few minutes to tell me that the state government has prohibited the import of pepperoni and is not available in MP as a Pizza Hut topping. As many of us know, pepperoni is made with pork and beef.

Now my question is, is this playing politics with religion to please Hindus or Muslims? Or was I being lied to since the Pizza Hut ran out of pepperoni?
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Post by SaiK »

Valkan,

what is cellular automaton?
:)
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Post by Kumar »

SaiK wrote:Valkan,

what is cellular automaton?
:)
Also Setphen Wolfram's (of Mathematica fame) new book "A new kind of science" makes huge claims based on cellular automata.
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Post by S.Valkan »

SaiK wrote:Valkan,

what is cellular automaton?
:)
Do you assume the existence of a grid, or not ? :wink:
Raju

Post by Raju »

The waiter came back in a few minutes to tell me that the state government has prohibited the import of pepperoni and is not available in MP as a Pizza Hut topping. As many of us know, pepperoni is made with pork and beef.
Must be a symptom peculiar to MP. Pepperoni toppings are available everywhere else.
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Post by Kumar »

Aditya Vikrams wrote:Kumar, I am one your kind but we will always be a minority
Aditya,

Thank you. Be not a'frodo. the "Fellowship of the Few" grows. Soon it will be able to tackle the Dark (matter) Lord.
Raju

Post by Raju »

kumar,

danavas are of two types. Danava and Sudanava. Both will eat meat. but the Sudanava will eat it only until they have to vanquish the former. After that their role is over and they can change their ways.
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Post by abhischekcc »

Kumar wrote:Am I the only one here with a boring lifestyle, i.e. with no meat, no eggs, no sea-food, no-alcohol, no smoke .... (definitely no beef)

I haven't had this strong "minority" feeling on this board before. Where are you my fellows in creed! Show yourself, and be counted! :)
I am also one of the kind. I am a vegetarian bong :eek: .

But I nver feel like minority ever. Wherever I am, I am always in a majority of one. 8) So, now our kind is a majority on this board. :P
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Post by TSJones »

Kumar wrote:Am I the only one here with a boring lifestyle, i.e. with no meat, no eggs, no sea-food, no-alcohol, no smoke .... (definitely no beef)

I haven't had this strong "minority" feeling on this board before. Where are you my fellows in creed! Show yourself, and be counted! :)
:shock: What do you do when you want to celebrate and get a little rowdy? Seriously. Are you a yoga master or something like that?
Last edited by TSJones on 03 Apr 2007 00:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by S.Valkan »

abhischekcc wrote: I am also one of the kind. I am a vegetarian bong :eek: .
How is that one of a kind ?

There are a substantial number Bengalis who are Gaudiya Vaishnavas ( a branch of which has gained ISKCON fame ).

Although, one can argue that the even the most sublime Vaishnava Purana ( reverently called the Fifth Veda ) Srimad Bhagavatam suggests that meat-eating is a natural part of the cycle of life:

Ahastani Sahastanam
Apadena Chatuspadam
Laghuni Tatra Mahatam
Jivo Jivasya Jivanam
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Post by Manny »

Sadler wrote:
Acharya wrote:
Yes, I told my American boss once that only the Indian cow was holy and the American cow is not. Hence I can eat the American cow/beef. He was shocked and after that never made any statement about Hindu's at least in front of me.
:rotfl:

Good one. I heard the same once from an Indian friend.

Somehow, both porkis and EJs think that the very mention of "cow/beef" will send hindus into paroxysms of rage. And get the crap surprised outa them when the hindu comes back with a rather flippant answer. Way to go.
The explanation I give is about..how in some culture (CHinese/Korean) they eat dogs. But Imagine if the same folks open a Dog restaurant in the mid west. IS it your religion or is it your culture that would make it an Anathema? They usually pipe down after that.

But I do like a nice Prime Rib. :)

Manny
Last edited by Manny on 03 Apr 2007 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kumar »

TSJones wrote:
Kumar wrote:Am I the only one here with a boring lifestyle, i.e. with no meat, no eggs, no sea-food, no-alcohol, no smoke .... (definitely no beef)

I haven't had this strong "minority" feeling on this board before. Where are you my fellows in creed! Show yourself, and be counted! :)
:shock: What do you do when you want to celebrate and get a little rowdy? Seriously.
Want to celebrate: Sing or play Tabla.
Want to get rowdy: Wasszzat?? :)
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Post by SaiK »

from my little thoughts..

cause, one cannot start deriving without an origin pattern.. hence the assumption. i guess, that includes if it needs to be proved for something that is tending to infinite. since, there exists scope for growth [including knowledge], how could one not assume something is conclusive, hence given. again, there is no proof available that is to say, outside the scope of finite experiences, there exists "no finite patterns".

?
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Post by TSJones »

Kumar wrote:
TSJones wrote: :shock: What do you do when you want to celebrate and get a little rowdy? Seriously.
Want to celebrate: Sing or play Tabla.
Want to get rowdy: Wasszzat?? :)
Are you a yoga master? Breath control, etc.?
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Post by S.Valkan »

SaiK wrote:from my little thoughts..
cause, one cannot start deriving without an origin pattern.. hence the assumption.
?
Good.

That is why this model wouldn't pass muster when challenged logically.

The only way out is a cyclic model ( as in most Indic religions ), with the Potential Energy of the Absolute Vacuum acting as a probabilistic agent for the spontaneous break in symmetry leading to the "origin" pattern.
Last edited by S.Valkan on 03 Apr 2007 00:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kumar »

No master. Just a student.
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Post by Manny »

I have had lunch is those reastaurants in Nehru Place, N.Delhi. And many of the eateries there, when they serve "mutton", they actually serve something thats neither goat nor lamb. Its either beef, camel or horse. I would bet my life on it.

So I know, many people in Delhi are eating anything by Mutton.

If you want unadultrated mutton its safter to go to a Muslim butcher or a muslim run restaurant.

Thats my experience

Manny
Last edited by Manny on 03 Apr 2007 00:22, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Sadler »

vsudhir wrote:
What happens if the yindoo too decides to show the finger instead of care what the other faiths think of his intolerance? What happens if the IWH decides to go rigid and unapologetic and decide not to get all guilted up? Well, what you are seeing on this board is eggsactly a trailer of that. Must admit that the SDRE IWH yindoo onlee showing spine and refusing to take a guilt trip is so a rare a sight, it is a tad unsettling, even to a card carrying SDF like myself......
Bravo. We need more of this.

A while back i had posted that in response to a company in the US putting the image of Hindu deities on toilet seats, Indians should have started a mass collection and converted every single toilet bowl to show jesus. Much like americans then, indians could have also claimed "freedom of speech" and averred firmly that should the US company stop its practice, so would Indians. And further more, made the US company or any interested christians the $$ to repair and restore the toilet bowls to remove images of jesus.

Well, the supporters of EVJ (evangelical-vatican jehadis) and PBUH (purveyors of bile und hatred) pilloried me for saying exactly the same thing.

Two eyes and an arm and a leg for an eye.
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Post by SaiK »

..later, i need to step out.
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Post by Aditya_V »

S.Valkan
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Posted: 02 Apr 2007 06:38 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abhischekcc wrote:

I am also one of the kind. I am a vegetarian bong .


How is that one of a kind ?

There are a substantial number Bengalis who are Gaudiya Vaishnavas ( a branch of which has gained ISKCON fame ).

Although, one can argue that the even the most sublime Vaishnava Purana ( reverently called the Fifth Veda ) Srimad Bhagavatam suggests that meat-eating is a natural part of the cycle of life:

Ahastani Sahastanam
Apadena Chatuspadam
Laghuni Tatra Mahatam
Jivo Jivasya Jivanam
I think Srimad Bhagvatam also states that 5 places where Kali resides is where there is meat eating, Alcholism, Gambling, illicit sex and excessive gold? I think this confirmed in the Garuda purana as well. So while people can certainly live through meat eating- as per vaishnava schools no bhakti can develop if you eat meat.
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Post by Manny »

You guys must have heard of Rajeev Malhotra, here in the US. He fights a lonely battle against anti Hindusim among the academic circles.

http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/p ... ndrome.htm


Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Manny
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Post by SBajwa »

Sikh perspective about Meat vs Vegetarian.

Many Sikh gurus ate meat.

Sikhs have a Rahit Maryada that is approved by Akal Takht. Akal Takht Jathedar is elected unanimously by a Sarbatt Khalsa (all Khalsa).

Rahit Maryada was first started by Sri Guru Gobind Singh in 1699 when Khalsa was created. He forbade the Halal Meat then. Then... he also declared that Sarbatt Khalsa can amend/change rules. So! if you go by Sri Guru Nanak dev, he says "people who argue over food are fools", while Guru Gobind Singh, when creating Khalsa army, forbade Halal, eating/not-eating other meat was left to personal choice.

After guru gobind singh Banda Bahadur (was vegetarian) was huge influence among Sikhs to become vegetarians., under his influence Rahit Maryada was changed to make Amritdharis eat only vegetarian foods while Keshdharis can eat anything but halal.

Even today! the Gurudwaras in Patna (Bihar) or in Nanded (maharashtra) serve Goat meat (named as Maha Prasad) in a specific Pangat (a langar queue)., due to the tradition started from the times of Guru Gobind Singh.

Guru Hargobind ji hunted and ate meat.
Guru Harrai ji hunted and ate meat.
Guru Tegh Bahadur ji hunted and ate meat.
Guru Gobind Singh ji hunted and ate meat.

Why meat is not served in langar is because langar is available to everybody (christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists, athehists, scientologists, vegans, etc) and thus the most common form that is acceptable to everybody is vegetarian.
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Post by S.Valkan »

Aditya Vikrams wrote: I think Srimad Bhagvatam also states that 5 places where Kali resides is where there is meat eating, Alcholism, Gambling, illicit sex and excessive gold?
Actually, no.

But some sectarian Vaishnavas try to claim so in their "Purports" on stories of Jada Bharata.

However, as described earlier, Tantra can be of Vamachara mode, which is radically opposite to Sattvic Vaishnava Bhakti, where the duality is sought to be maintained.

And, usually, Shakti-Bhakti can be of Vamachara mode, and BhadraKali is Shakti.

Hence, the "impurities" may well be considered as being there in SOME form of Shakti-Bhakti.
So while people can certainly live through meat eating- as per vaishnava schools no bhakti can develop if you eat meat.
Once again, the "Bhakti" here is the Sattvic Bhakti of the Vaishnavas.

Doesn't hold for Shaktas.
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