Religion thread - 7

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 01:17

Sajan wrote:I deliberately didn't tell the whole story about Kodungalloor Bharani and as I can see, Valkan and Disha have jumped the gun already.

frankly, I have no interest in whatever story it is you are trying to tell ...

but, admittedly attempting to bait/trap is not very useful ...

somehow, I doubt that you will trap Valkan but I am quite certain that you will manage to obfuscate the issue ...

if your goal is that now everyone should sit through pages after pages while your little game is played out, you will probably succeed ...

alternately, you can post your analysis of the situation and what your point is ... (I am generously assuming that you do have a point) ...

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 02 Apr 2007 01:33

Ahhhhh Sakhavu Sajanus Caesar returns with another barrage of misinformation!

Why don't you tell us why Marthanda Varma started the "Padmanabhan Dasa" system? (Oh wait, mebbe you are holding it back to trap us untermenschen?) Did the Kings of Travancore use this to stamp down other religions and lower castes? Okay, who do you think formed the bulk of his troops? (connected question- How did the Nairs, originally low caste groups of present day Kerala, ascend up the social ladder in these time?).
For that matter, how far did the "patronage" extend in ALL of India? Even the so called "Brahmana Conspiracy" that pulled down the Mauryas and propped up the Sungas did not result in any pogrom of the Buddhists (who DID misuse the imperial patronage), did it?

The realisation of the Supreme can be achieved through a variety of means..... Valkan is on the dot when he talks about Tantric and Satvic methods. The extreme methods of the Kapalikas and Kalamukhas were looked down upon by the "propah" devotees.... but even here there are a number of legends which point to the core idea behind Tantric Worship. (I remember HH posting one such legend in I-F). Maybe you (being a Mallu too) have heard of "Maraprabhu" or "Manjula Tree" legends of Guruvayoor. BTW, coming to bhakti of the "barbarian", ever heard of the legend of Kannappa of Sri Kalahasti? Heck... there was this practice called Veeracharam that would make Silas the Albino Monk look like Mohmd. Shah Rangila!
The Tantric methods are sometimes dismissed as Asampradayas and gained the bad rep due to the misuse by the Hippie types. Even from the ancient times these sects were subjected to much ridicule as seen from the socio-political satire Mattavilasa Prahasana (penned by the Pallava King Mahendravarma) and a number of Hindu religious texts. The birth of "realisation" via mortification, pain, trance or pleasure has sadly ample scope of attracting assorted sleaze bags and Dungeon Masters who use these perfectly viable paths as a cover for their hedonism. This is why the lay are NOT supposed to go into these without proper guidance as Valkan said. The weak/uninformed might be trapped in that transient state and find it difficult to push ahead into the light.

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 02 Apr 2007 01:34

heck i love this cow slaughter and beef eating discussions..

honestly, religious causes aside, beef from cows 'expired due to natural causes' wont be as tasty as freshly slaughtered cows. god forbid, what if tommorrow animal rights activists win and they want us to eat chicken meat only from 'chickens' that die naturally and not from slaughtered chickens?

, or even worse, vegetarians win and they want all meat to be banned because it might incite riots from veggie folks?

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 02 Apr 2007 01:39

Are there Dalits who are officers in the military? Are there tribals in the military?

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 01:41

are there Blacks who are presidents of countries in the west?

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 01:43

this sermonizing by folks whose ancestors are covered in blood is cute ...

next act:

TSJ will sing praises of how Native Americans are Free ...

C/D-ji may chime in with Aurangzeb, The Just ...

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 01:43

American cows are hygienic while Indian cows are holy. Prefer a non holy hygienic tender cow on spit. Hummmmm summer is coming. Bring on my 28 Oz's tenderloin (socked in beer (Heineken preferably for at least 2 hrs) and marinated with just salt and paper oH lala) serve with lots of beer. Now thats what I am dreaming.

Why not to convert this thread into various BEEF recipes looks every TSJ, Calvin and Vishy is more interested in steak than serious discussion.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 01:49

vishy,

may as well join in the fun before Shiv comes and locks the thread ...

here is a recipe for Dog I learned in the Northeast ...

1. Start with a Dog. Keep him hungry for days.

2. When he is starving, feed him losts of half-cooked rice.

3. As soon as the poor bugger is done wolfing down the rice, slaughter it.

4. Slow roast the dog over an open fire.

5. When done, slice open the dog.

now, the fun part ... discard the Dog ... The cooked Rice is the delicacy ...

you suppose a franchise called the The Hot-Dogger will do good business?

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 01:53

Vishy_mulay wrote:Why not to convert this thread into various BEEF recipes looks every TSJ, Calvin and Vishy is more interested in steak than serious discussion.

yes, ALL BEEF, ALL THE TIME ...

Here is what I learned from a French colleague about how to cook a good rare steak ...

1. start a fire

2. get a steak

3. Introduce them, as in "Fire this is steak ... Steak this is Fire"

Serve.

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 01:55

How dare you kill RICE? My majority religious sentiments are stamped over. RICE killing should be banned everywhere. That DOG was the reason behind RICE killing. TSJ where are you? Dont you think just because Alok wants to kill RICE, it is ok with EJs? Why you are not bringing issues about brown and black rice? Why they they should be neglected? Do BLACK rice get equal cleaning? Oh God sheer injustice I say.

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 02 Apr 2007 01:56

A few posts ago, you insinuated that Hindu Dharma is not tolerant. Now, it is obvious that such an insinuation doesn't stick. What the government does - as a consequence to popular conviction - can't be blamed on Hindu Dharma as such.

It is not obvious to me at all. Is the injunction against cow slaughter religious, or cultural? I thought the primary premise was that it was cultural (dharmic?) and not religious. Then we find that there are religious strictures against cow slaughter that are being used by present day journalists, and indeed, holy persons (a simple google search will illustrate this). Regardless of which this is, such a situation serves to negatively affect freedoms of individuals.

What the government does - as a consequence to popular conviction - can't be blamed on Hindu Dharma as such.

Can "popular conviction" be "blamed" on Dharma?

Why doesn't the govt. allow free sale of prescription and illicit drugs, or legislate against smoking ? Is it only to "punish" people, or prevent death/injury ?

The discussion of this issue will take a while, suffice to say that an indepth (i.e., non-superficial) analysis will indicate that these laws are not driven by the prevention of death or injury, as much as they are driven by revenue motives and lobbies. The "prevention of death or injury" is a public veneer, to push other hidden agendas. Similarly, speed limits are fundamentally about local government revenues, but are pushed in the guise of reducing fuel consumption, and protecting other motorists from the "probability" of a crime being committed. As I noted, there is a long discussion that we can have there, and by and large, it is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

In any event, like PETA, the Cow Belt people believe in the animal rights of cows, and its violation triggers an automatic response.

The contention is that this "automatic response" is ultimately "premeditated" in nature, as there is not an immediate threat to human life or limb, and accordingly human beings have the luxury of time to think. Accordingly, the protection against "falsely shouting fire" does not apply, as slaughtering the cow doesn't place human beings at risk - it is the deliberate action of the mob that places other human beings at risk.

In the context of "falsely shouting fire", the act of shouting is what causes human beings to act irrationally to save their own life or limb, placing their own life or limb in danger.

The threat of mob violence is being used to PROTECT civilians.

The threat of mob violence is being used to prevent cow slaughtering. Cow slaughtering by itself doesn't physically harm "civilians." Civilians are not at danger of anything other than the mob violence itself.

Valkan says:

Sure.

in response to:

How is this different from Shah Bano? Was the government of the day justified in saying "lets not take chances", and modify the constitution?

See, here is where I disagree with you. Man has certain rights that a "social contract" between social groups should not be able to take away.

And more than anything else, the notion that "preventing mob violence" by appeasing the mob, should be called what it really is - "mob rule." Is "mob rule" what we really want?

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 02 Apr 2007 01:59

TSJones wrote:Are there Dalits who are officers in the military? Are there tribals in the military?

No, last I heard Dalits have moved to America en masse. and live in "reservations", after they were handed out "Small Pox" blankets, as Christmas Presents..

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 02 Apr 2007 01:59

Is beef served in the military? Chow hall? Field rations?

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 02:02

Vishy_mulay wrote:How dare you kill RICE? My majority religious sentiments are stamped over.

vishy, you appear to be an expert on such matters ...

I am seriously concerned about the rights of Cannibals ...

Just because the majority is against it, is that sufficient reason to BAN MANSLAUGHTER?

We should be marching up and down Raj Path to protest such Species Discrimination? ...

Aren't Homo Sapiens being Elitist? ... Why should Homo Sapiens not be slaughtered just because it husts the sentiments of some Elitists?

Many, many, questions on this "Beef about Beef" thread ...

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 02 Apr 2007 02:03

TSJones wrote:Is beef served in the military? Chow hall? Field rations?

Marines who are getting their ass blown off, in Iraq can tell you if "beef saves".

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Apr 2007 02:09

TSJones wrote:Are there Dalits who are officers in the military? Are there tribals in the military?

There is an entire regiment (the Mahar Regiment) that is composed of people from a caste that could be considered among the 'Dalits'.

There is another regiment (Sikh Light Infantry) that recruits heavily from the 'Dalit' castes among the Sikhs.

Both these regiments have a long and illustrious history with many medals for gallantry in combat.

The officers in the armed forces are recruited on merit after a competitive selection process. No data is kept about their castes, but there is no reason to assume that there aren't Dalit officers in the army.

As for the tribals there is at least one regiment that I know of, the Naga regiment, that recruits from the Naga tribals of the Northeast.

Tribals of Jharkhand region join the Bihar regiment in large numbers.
Both these regiments again have an illustrious history with many medals of gallantry.

India's last President was a Dalit.

The head of the constituent assembly that wrote India's constitution 60 odd years ago, was a Dalit.

You don't know these elementary facts about India, and yet you continue pontificating.

Since you probably wouldn't believe the words of a Yindoo anyway, why don't you at least take some lessons from Johann about historical and modern India?

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 02:09

Tilak,

please don't make fun of WOT related issues ...

Congress has left its indelible mark on All Foods Right and Relevant ...

they are the proud inventors of Freedom Fries ...

so the technically correct question to ask is, "Are Freedom Fries served in Iraq?" ...

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 02:15

ok, enough Beef Gyaan ...

I promise to delete all my Beef posts if others do ...

but, quite honestly, we have barely scratched the surface of all that is there to the topic of Beef ...

parting thought: Bovine Emissions is being studied as a legitimate source of Greenhouse Gases ...

Should the Kyoto Accord ban Beef?

India should enter this in the next round of negotiations ...

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 02 Apr 2007 02:21

Who is "pontificating"? I just asked a few questions that I did not know the answers to.

It appears I have upset people by asking questions so I will stop. But I would make the observation that dietary considerations can be very important.

1. ABout 150 years ago Indian troops had a problem with bullets lubricated with beef lard.

2. Emergency rations that the US military drops are vegetarian. This was held in great ridicule by Afghans.

3. McDonalds was sued by a Desi lawyer for using beef flavor in their vegetarian fries in the US.

And so it goes. So, no more questions from me.

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 02 Apr 2007 02:21

TSJones wrote:Is beef served in the military? Chow hall? Field rations?

Interesting question - Was beef served in the Indian military - I guess it depends on regiment to regiment.

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 02 Apr 2007 02:23

Alok_N wrote:
Vishy_mulay wrote:How dare you kill RICE? My majority religious sentiments are stamped over.
vishy, you appear to be an expert on such matters ...

I am seriously concerned about the rights of Cannibals ...

Just because the majority is against it, is that sufficient reason to BAN MANSLAUGHTER?

We should be marching up and down Raj Path to protest such Species Discrimination? ...

Aren't Homo Sapiens being Elitist? ... Why should Homo Sapiens not be slaughtered just because it husts the sentiments of some Elitists?

Many, many, questions on this "Beef about Beef" thread ...

Alok,

going by your argument, tommorrow we will ban chicken slaughter and then banning goat slaughter, then you will want a vegetarian india - and THEN we will have riots...

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Apr 2007 02:25

TSJones wrote:Is beef served in the military? Chow hall? Field rations?

The troops in an infantry regiment of the Indian Army are usually recruited from the same part of India. The food they are served takes into acount their nutritional needs and the cuisine that they are used to in their part of the country, and their religious taboos.

For example, the Jat regiment whose troops are mostly vegetarian Hindu Jats from the north and northwest, would not serve any kind of meat in the chow hall. The Rajput Regiment would serve meat but no beef. A regiment with many Muslim troops would not serve pork. I have not read any regulation anywhere that units with majority of Muslim or Christian troops cannot be served beef.

Instead of poking fun at the Indian Army, if you really want to learn the nitty-gritty of how the Indian Army works, you should page Brigadier RayC. He can tell you all you need to know but you should talk to him with respect.

BTW, a lot of Indian Army regulations were written by the British. Do you think they would not have had beef served in the mess halls?

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 02:28

Alok,

going by your argument, tommorrow we will ban chicken slaughter and then banning goat slaughter, then you will want a vegetarian india - and THEN we will have riots...

Why stop at vegetables? Dont they have life? How can you be so insensitive to grains, roots, leaves and shoots? I am really disappointed by your lack of sensitivity towards RICE KILLING. Why it does not bother you when small small RICE grains are mercilessly killed by boiling them in hot water. How cruel? Have we really lost our heart?

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 02 Apr 2007 02:29

Kakkaji wrote:
TSJones wrote:Is beef served in the military? Chow hall? Field rations?
I have not read any regulation anywhere that units with majority of Muslim or Christian troops cannot be served beef.

mess halls?

Kakkaji, correct me if i am wrong. Christians in india are predominantly mutton eaters, not beef eaters. beef eaters in india are mostly Muslims and ofcourse , desi expats in teh US who went over to the McDarkside burgers..

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Apr 2007 02:32

Re. all this fuss about 'ban on cow slaughter' by Calvin:

Why isn't the slaughter of dogs and cats for food allowed in the U.S.? Isn't that an infringement on the rights of Korean-Americans and others whose native culture allows consuming these animals for food?

Recently there has been a big movement to stop the slaughter and export of horse meat to France for human consumption. As a result, the slaughterhouses are closing, and many horse owners in Kentucky are abandoning their horses and starving horses are wandering around the countryside.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Apr 2007 02:34

CPrakash wrote:Kakkaji, correct me if i am wrong. Christians in india are predominantly mutton eaters, not beef eaters. beef eaters in india are mostly Muslims and ofcourse , desi expats in teh US who went over to the McDarkside burgers..

Not sure. Perhaps Calvin and Rakesh can respond. I know Rakesh is a Christian from a state where cow slaughter is legal, and fresh beef is readily available.

I think many Parsi delicacies are beef-based.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Apr 2007 02:39

Kakkaji wrote:

Recently there has been a big movement to stop the slaughter and export of horse meat to France for human consumption. As a result, the slaughterhouses are closing, and many horse owners in Kentucky are abandoning their horses and starving horses are wandering around the countryside.

Can India approve Horse meat and horse slaughter? Can it be the biggest exporter.

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 02 Apr 2007 02:40

Kakkaji wrote:Re. all this fuss about 'ban on cow slaughter' by Calvin:

Why isn't the slaughter of dogs and cats for food allowed in the U.S.? Isn't that an infringement on the rights of Korean-Americans and others whose native culture allows consuming these animals for food?

if the US had a 130 million population segment that eat cats and dogs, you can bet your money that eating cats and dogs would perfectly be legal in the US. but they dont and hence the ban.

Whats the beefeating population in india? See my post above for an idea.

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 02:40

I started eating BEEF in India in a Parsi joint in PUNE (anyone from Pune will know the joint in camp). Yuuuuummmm still remember the old Bawa yelling at us yindoos for not following the religion. Man but those beef curries and samosas were right from heaven. Wish I can take texan angus beef to Bawa and ask him to cook it in his estyle.

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 02 Apr 2007 02:42

Vishy_mulay wrote:I started eating BEEF in India in a Parsi joint in PUNE (anyone from Pune will know the joint in camp). Yuuuuummmm still remember the old Bawa yelling at us yindoos for not following the religion. Man but those beef curries and samosas were right from heaven. Wish I can take texan angus beef to Bawa and ask him to cook it in his estyle.

This thread could be a rallying point for us Hindu Beef Eaters ...

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 02 Apr 2007 02:42

Now it is most likely that ancestors of Calvin ... were Hindus but here they are fighting for their religion as if their life is under threat.

What is my religion?

And what, specifically, am I fighting for? Before you snap back a response, please review the preceding threads and *think* about what my posts have been about.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 02 Apr 2007 02:46

TSJones wrote:Sajan:

Please tone it down or you will be gone. I very much want to see you to continue to contribute your knowledge about the situation. Please consider that even objective observations with direct links to news is going to be highly controversial here. Don't add ridicule the way they do, because well, the forum here is to honor India and they think India is under constant attack from America anyway. I know you will take my words in the best manner, not as a put down. Thanks in advance. - TSJ

PS: if you want me to erase this message, I will certainly be glad to.

Now this is the strength of evangelical religions. I am sorry Sajan for my assumption here that you are a Christian either converted or born. It sounds so from your posts. My apologies if I am wrong.

How can Hindus possibly fight such a zombie machine (evangelical religions)? Now it is most likely that ancestors of Calvin and Sajan were Hindus but here they are fighting for their religion as if their life is under threat. If we fail then we too risk being either dead or turn into a zombie ourselves trying to spread these religions to our family and friends. X'nity and Islam being spread so far and wide that they get supporters from many different parts of the world. This support comes in many different ways; material, political, manpower, intelligence etc. They get new perspective, new thinking, new support with their spread in different countries. How can that be tackled? No wonder Sadler commented with exasperation that they just can't be stopped/defeated.

Well efforts can be made towards that but what is the price we are willing to pay for that? Shiv's question in earlier thread was very pertinent "What is exactly that we want to preserve?" Elephant headed god? Monkey god? Flesh eating goddess with multiple hands? Valkan I think attempted an answer to that question but it may vary for others. That itself sounds like a probelm to me as it displays lack of unanimity. Despite of saying all this I myself is at loss explaining what is it that I want to preserve.

There is so much energy that is being wasted on this topic in India that if it were to be directed towards nation building that will be a great force to our advantage.

I believe India and Hinduism is not much of a potent threat to these zombie machines. I mean if it really were then we would have seen joining hands between X'nity and Islam just like they did to defeat USSR. Communism was a much potent threat in that it relegated religion to back side without caring for either religion. Both the God and Allah recognized that as a threat and they readily joined hands. Once that was achieved, they are now back at their age old game of slitting each other's throat (metaphorically) in the name of religion.

How are Hindus going to tackle that?

This is just my personal question that I wanted to share. I DO NOT WANT ANYBODY TO POST AN ANSWER TO THE LAST QUESTION ON THIS OPEN FORUM FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. This is my sincere request to you all.

Edit: Sorry Kelvin...I thought I double posted and deleted my earlier post.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 02 Apr 2007 02:48

TSJones wrote:Is beef served in the military? Chow hall? Field rations?

No the Indian Military does not serve beef. More so, the Army insists on Jhatka style as opposed to Halal.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Apr 2007 02:50

TSJones wrote:2. Emergency rations that the US military drops are vegetarian. This was held in great ridicule by Afghans.

IIRC, the Afghans ridiculed these rations not because they were 'vegetarian', but because they consisted of items they had never seen before and did not like the taste of.

India has sent to Afghanistan tons of 'high-protein biscuits' made from wheat, and the Afghans found them just fine.

When I first came to the US, I intensely disliked the smell and taste of even vegetarian items that were served in the college dining hall. American food is an acquired taste for me.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Apr 2007 02:56

CPrakash wrote: if the US had a 130 million population segment that eat cats and dogs, you can bet your money that eating cats and dogs would perfectly be legal in the US. but they dont and hence the ban.

Maybe but if I read Calvin correctly, he is arguing for the rights of a minority of one. By that standard I am sure there is at least one person in the US that would like to eat dogs or cats.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 02 Apr 2007 02:57

How can Hindus possibly fight such a zombie machine (evangelical religions)? Now it is most likely that ancestors of Calvin and Sajan were Hindus but here they are fighting for their religion as if their life is under threat. If we fail then we too risk being either dead or turn into a zombie ourselves trying to spread these religions to our family and friends.

I hope Kelvin

doesn't mind if I post these lyrics from the Cranberries (um cranberries, boiled in sugar and water reduced down, yum):

Another head hangs lowly,
Child is slowly taken.
And the violence caused such silence,
Who are we mistaken?

But you see, it's not me, it's not my family.
In your head, in your head they are fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are crying...

In your head, in your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie,
Hey, hey, hey. What's in your head,
In your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie?
Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou...

Another mother's breakin',
Heart is taking over.
When the vi'lence causes silence,
We must be mistaken.

It's the same old theme since nineteen-sixteen.
In your head, in your head they're still fighting,
With their tanks and their bombs,
And their bombs and their guns.
In your head, in your head, they are dying...

In your head, in your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie,
Hey, hey, hey. What's in your head,
In your head,
Zombie, zombie, zombie?
Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, oh, oh,
Oh, oh, oh, oh, hey, oh, ya, ya-a...

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 02 Apr 2007 03:24

I guess I can skip archiving this thread.

Folks please dont feed the trolls.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 02 Apr 2007 03:26

No the Indian Military does not serve beef.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 02 Apr 2007 03:39

please check the facts ... how can a non-beef eating army have won against TFTA beef-eaters?

could it be that they had Beefeater Gin?

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 02 Apr 2007 04:11