Religion thread - 7

Bade
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Postby Bade » 02 Apr 2007 09:23

That seems a bit far-fetched to me, considering the fact that Kannaki is not part of the folk-lore surrounding the festival. You can not see any references to Kannaki in that celeberation.


Not really, if you take into account folklore which also identifies Kannaki with the Bhagawathy herself. :)

Yes, regarding buddhist influence or even practice yes there is plenty of evidence. But Shankara's time was definitely after Kannaki's and the practice seems to be limited to only one devi kshetram. why ? Attukal in trivandrum was also supposed to have been on her stop before heading for Kodungallur. And they do not have a Bharani theri pattu festival there. It points in the direction I hypothesized. I have no conclusive proof for sure but there is sufficient ground for the statement.

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Postby PIyengar » 02 Apr 2007 09:23

Bade wrote: Question: Is Buffalo slaughter allowed where cow slaughter is banned ? .


I was wondering about the same. I am not sure about India, but in pakistan there are two kinds of bovines:

The classic "zebu" mated with either Holstein or hereford/angus for milk or meat. And the native buffalo. Which produces a lot milk and is usually fat and happy without special dietary requirements.

Having eaten both (I was hungary and had run out of all vegetables :oops: )
There is not much difference (specially if you marinate the steak overnight in some yogurt with a pich of mustard and some wasabi).

So where Cow murder is banned, could the beefeaters murder buffaloes instead?? That way we could achieve a dharmic equilibrium of sorts... Hain??

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 02 Apr 2007 09:27

Well then Shivji I will go back to Gurudev and learn about BEEFISM. Gurudev will you enlighten us poor souls what is the difference between nice juicy tenderloin (the ONE for poor us adnyanis) than that of BEEF of the BEEF (Param BEEF the One and Only accessible to the chosen one)? Can a simple person like me achieve the BEEF of the BEEF? What Sadhana and Suchita is required? DO I have to leave nice comforts of my grihasti life to wonder in the wilderness of Rocky mountains? How will I know I am ready to be inducted? Please Gurudev my stomach is in hunger pains knowing how incomplete I am without BEEF of the BEEF.

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Postby Sajan » 02 Apr 2007 09:28

you have been trying to prove that Hindus are cruel to cows.

No, I have been trying to show why slaughtering cow is necessary, as a lot of people depend on that for food. I never said only Hindus are cruel to cows, the article that I quoted states that cows/bullocks are mis-treated in India and it is not necessarily by hindus alone. Whether the article appeared in Pakistani daily or not, I know that is a fact.

Also I am against cow-slaughter ban being imposed to appease the majority which infringes on individual freedom (to choose one's own diet), just like I oppose displaying ten commandments in US to appease another majority. If I remember right, Hindu American Foundation(HAF) was one of the parties that approached US-SC to ban that display (and I support them on that).

These are similar issues when you view from that perspective. In a muti-cultural society, majority can not push their views over the minority. IF I remember right, display of ten commandments was struck down by US SC.

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Postby Alok_N » 02 Apr 2007 09:28

Tilak wrote:
Sajan wrote:That seems a bit far-fetched to me ....


Just like it did earlier claming the above article, as being published in UK.


Tilak boss, please go easy on the tenderfoot followers ... they are but at the Holy Veal level ...

it is not everyone who appreciates the Holy Beef ....

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Postby Tilak » 02 Apr 2007 09:31

Sajan wrote:If I remember right, Hindu American Foundation(HAF) was one of the parties that approached US-SC to ban that display (and I support them on that).

These are similar issues when you view from that perspective. In a muti-cultural society, majority can not push their views over the minority. IF I remember right, display of ten commandments was struck down by US SC.


Oooh... Now you play == :oops:

Thanks but no thanks. I like playing my "Opressor" role.
Last edited by Tilak on 02 Apr 2007 09:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby SaiK » 02 Apr 2007 09:32

what crap? dharmic equilibrium ! sheesh~ comparing two type of murders, and you are taking dharmic (justice). a kill is a kill is a kill. killer will face Newtons laws.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 09:36

Vishy_mulay wrote:Well then Shivji I will go back to Gurudev and learn about BEEFISM.


Beef is only one of the issues that is used as a stick to beat Hindus with.

What is not mentioned is the idea of wantonly "slaughtering" life is abhorred in Hindu dharma, but that also does not mean that Hindus do not kill or do not allow killing.

The reason I construct my sentence in this manner is because just like there are myriads of views on any given subject on Hindu thought, those who have been habitually opposed to Hindu thought have developed myriad sticks to beat the Hindu with.

Note the first stick to beat the Hindu

"Cow slaughter is banned"

Second stick:

"Beef sale was nearly banned"

Third stick

"Cows are ill treated by Hindus"

Let us not allow the beef issue to go away before all the inconsistencies are laid bare.

Then we will go on to another inconsequential issue that someone will surely bring up to beat the Hindu and spend another five threads on unravelling that.

Only in that manner can we hope to unravel the layer upon layer of excuses and rationalizations to show how Hindu thought and sentiment are all a piece of shit.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 09:41

Sajan wrote:
you have been trying to prove that Hindus are cruel to cows.

No, I have been trying to show why slaughtering cow is necessary, as a lot of people depend on that for food. I never said only Hindus are cruel to cows, the article that I quoted states that cows/bullocks are mis-treated in India and it is not necessarily by hindus alone. Whether the article appeared in Pakistani daily or not, I know that is a fact.

Also I am against cow-slaughter ban being imposed to appease the majority which infringes on individual freedom (to choose one's own diet), just like I oppose displaying ten commandments in US to appease another majority. If I remember right, Hindu American Foundation(HAF) was one of the parties that approached US-SC to ban that display (and I support them on that).

These are similar issues when you view from that perspective. In a muti-cultural society, majority can not push their views over the minority. IF I remember right, display of ten commandments was struck down by US SC.


I will take your word for it - but will watch you r actions as well. The bolded parts in your post that indicated ill treatment of cows do not gel with the defensive excuse you are making now.

Your views are allowed as long as you do not seek to disrupt by trolling or making off topic statements intended to inflame.

Type with care. This is a subject in which emotions run high.

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Postby Sajan » 02 Apr 2007 09:43

Thanks but no thanks. I like playing my "Opressor" role.

So are you saying that you would like to enjoy special rights while you are in minority, but wouldn't let others have similar rights while you are in majority ?

I think that is what the "beef issue" boils down to.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 02 Apr 2007 09:43

Shiv sorry for being sarcastic. I just hope this exercise will bring something concrete. My experience is that the posts just gets marred into repetition. Hope I am proven wrong.

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Postby SaiK » 02 Apr 2007 09:46

one should not alsoooo flame such that it needs constitutional amendments.!? again can issue based politics become majority reality?
Last edited by SaiK on 02 Apr 2007 09:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 09:47

Sajan wrote:
So are you saying that you would like to enjoy special rights while you are in minority, but wouldn't let others have similar rights while you are in majority ?

I think that is what the "beef issue" boils down to.



Islam says exactly that.

When Muslims are in a majority sharia must come into play. When they are in a minority, the law of that land must be followed by Muslims, but they must continue to follow sharia within their family lives.

I suppose you are wholly in agreement with that then

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Postby Sajan » 02 Apr 2007 09:52

The bolded parts in your post that indicated ill treatment of cows do not gel with the defensive excuse you are making now.

Does the bolded part that I quoted say anywhere that hindus mistreat the cow as Tilak claimed ? I think he jumped the gun when he saw that the article appeared in Pakistani daily by Praful Bidwaui (just like I did when I just read "News International").

Having said that, I think cows and bullocks are mis-treated in India. I have seen cows grazing through garbage in major cities in India (right in front of IIT Powai).

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Postby Tilak » 02 Apr 2007 09:53

Alok_N wrote:
Tilak wrote:
Sajan wrote:That seems a bit far-fetched to me ....


Just like it did earlier claming the above article, as being published in UK.


Tilak boss, please go easy on the tenderfoot followers ... they are but at the Holy Veal level ...

it is not everyone who appreciates the Holy Beef ....


Alok ji,

Official Paki has shown up out of thin air. Now I can say we are truly being watched.. :(

Sajan wrote:I have seen cows grazing through garbage in major cities in India (right in front of IIT Powai).


Ban IITian's. :lol:
Last edited by Tilak on 02 Apr 2007 09:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Shwetank » 02 Apr 2007 09:55

Sajan for the third time reply to my post will you. I thought you were trying to actually make a point but now you just switched to the cow thing and posted an article with terms like skinny, undernourished and brutaly beaten up?? what the hell was the point of that? not very objective is it? didn't shiv just rebut you by posting another opinion with the opposite viewpoint? how was yours more valid than his? like someone said you are making your assumptions and theories into facts. Even throwing around theories about some festival about which anything at all can be true and others have once agian thrown a counter theory with some kind of pseudo-reasoning behind it too.

No, I have been trying to show why slaughtering cow is necessary,

I don't see how you have shown that at all and I don't see why that is so, Grains are necessary but a particular kind of meat is certainly not.

the only point you finaly made is that cow slaughter impinges on individual rights which is being discussed by others and has nothing to do with the stuff you posted earlier.

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Postby SaiK » 02 Apr 2007 09:56

i have seen humans and their offspring scavenging garbage!~.. needs human rights watch as well. btw, what has that got to do with Religion thread. ill-treatments of all kinds to all kinds must be stopped anywhere on the planet.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 09:58

Sajan wrote:Does the bolded part that I quoted say anywhere that hindus mistreat the cow as Tilak claimed ? I think he jumped the gun when he saw that the article appeared in Pakistani daily by Praful Bidwaui (just like I did when I just read "News International").

Having said that, I think cows and bullocks are mis-treated in India. I have seen cows grazing through garbage in major cities in India (right in front of IIT Powai).


Note that your post did not say that cow slaughter was good or bad, It only spoke of cow suffering.

You are now changing the subject again.

I believe this is being done deliberately to disrupt the topic of cow slaughter because you have done it yet again.

I will allow you to defend yourself again, but it is clear that you are deliberately changing the subject from cow slaughter to cow suffering in india

Torn shirt vs open fly.

It does not seem to be your intention to stick to the topic of debate. It is your intention to disrupt. This time I am giving you a formal admin warning. You are out if you disrupt.

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Postby Sajan » 02 Apr 2007 09:58

Islam says exactly that.

When Muslims are in a majority sharia must come into play. When they are in a minority, the law of that land must be followed by Muslims, but they must continue to follow sharia within their family lives.

I suppose you are wholly in agreement with that then

I don't remember supporting Sharia anywhere. Why do you think I would support Sharia when I don't support display of ten commandments ?

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 02 Apr 2007 10:05

Touba Touba Sajanji sasural waloke sath yeh kya battamiji? How can napak 10 commandments be compared to Gods only law Sharia? Touba Touba yeh kahan aa gaye hum? :oops:

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Postby Tilak » 02 Apr 2007 10:08

Sajan wrote:Does the bolded part that I quoted say anywhere that hindus mistreat the cow as Tilak claimed ?


Excuse me.. What exactly did I claim ? apart from your selective editing skills and an observation I had..

Here is your == for the day. Paki's are fools and so is Pro-fool..
Last edited by Tilak on 02 Apr 2007 10:12, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby svinayak » 02 Apr 2007 10:08

shiv wrote:"Cow slaughter is banned"

Second stick:

"Beef sale was nearly banned"

Third stick

"Cows are ill treated by Hindus"

You left out

Hindus are banning the eating of BEEF

Only in that manner can we hope to unravel the layer upon layer of excuses and rationalizations to show how Hindu thought and sentiment are all a piece of shit.


I call it a sophisticated socio-political-psychological movement
to discredit Hindu intellectual and political leadership or what is left of it.
Last edited by svinayak on 02 Apr 2007 11:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 10:21

Sajan wrote:
Islam says exactly that.

When Muslims are in a majority sharia must come into play. When they are in a minority, the law of that land must be followed by Muslims, but they must continue to follow sharia within their family lives.

I suppose you are wholly in agreement with that then

I don't remember supporting Sharia anywhere. Why do you think I would support Sharia when I don't support display of ten commandments ?


I was asking for your opinion.

Now you have stated your opinion. I was just curious to see if your opinions are in consonance with each
other on various issues.

You do not support Islamic law sharia, which in your view is as undesirable as the public display of the Ten commandments

You don't support the Ten Commandments *being displayed*, but you have not stated whether you agree with those Ten commandments or not.


Your opinion on cow slaughter is "Cows are ill treated in India"
Last edited by shiv on 02 Apr 2007 10:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 10:29

Acharya wrote:I call it a sophisticated socio-political-psychological movement
to discredit Hindu intellectual and political leadership or what is left of it.


Acharya - I believe Hindus have been naive and unsophisticated - making a whole lot of jokers appear sophisticated in comparison.

In the loud howling about minority rights being trampled because they might get less beef than they may need, what is forgotten is the Hindu sentiment that killing cows is not on.

Now where is the acknowledgement of this sentiment or any talk of ways in which it could be accomodated? Hindus will just have to batter their sentiment down the throats of unbelievers in a ghastly caricature of the loving methods used by evanjihadis and Islamists.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 10:54

Hindus tend to go too far in many ways to show that they welcome new thought and new ideas even if the idea is disgusting to many of their kin. Beef eating is one such thing. Some people eat beef, others hate the idea. A third group will eat the stuff merely to show that they agree with the idea that it is OK to eat beef.

This behavior is in keeping with lack of fixed dogma in Hindu thought. Everything can be changed.

The mistake that Hindus make is in assuming that everyone will show this attitude. They do not. Rigidity is considered a positive trait, and flexibility an indicator of lack of conviction.

You could probably show a flexible person the advantages of rigidity, but you are unlikely to get a rigid person to become flexible.

Introducing rigid "red lines" that must not be crossed for Hindus is a good idea. Lots of Hindus eat beef, but lack of acknowledgement of the sentiment that cow slaughter is abhorrent to some should be a red line that is handled by beating the person who crosses it. Getting beaten by dogma is a familiar feeling to the person who grows up in rigid faiths. The only new sensation is getting beaten by someone else's dogma.

Raju

Postby Raju » 02 Apr 2007 11:08

Bade wrote:Question: Is Buffalo slaughter allowed where cow slaughter is banned ? .


Bade, I believe that is already the case in India. Buffalo meat is available all over India, it is just beef that is banned excepting in North East and a state in peninsular India and W. Bengal.

Desi buffalo meat is believed to have a higher proportion of fat than beef which is believed to be leaner. Beef also tastes more dry and buffalo tastes rich since it has a higher fat content. And also for this reason a lot of people who eat red-meat avoid eating buffalo due to its artery clogging properties.

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Postby SaiK » 02 Apr 2007 11:08

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17815402/
Eating beef can cause mutation... perhaps the reason that many in beef eating countries tend to become GAYs!?!?. of course this needs to be proved, but down 100 years from now, I shall be quoted.

Now its up to those beef eaters to decide how they would like to look like say 1000 years from now. The Real Aliens!

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Postby Sajan » 02 Apr 2007 11:16

but lack of acknowledgement of the sentiment that cow slaughter is abhorrent to some should be a red line that is handled by beating the person who crosses it

So are you advocating that anyone who doesn't acknowledge the sentiment regarding cow-slaughter in India should be beaten up ?

Using the same logic, what if someone in US says that "lack of acknowledgement of the sentiment that 10 commandments are the foundation of western judicial system and hence anyone who crosses that line by opposing the display of 10 commandments in a US courthouse should be beaten up" ?

To any impartial observer, you are showing the same symptoms that you are accusing the islamists of (i.e. one set of rules while you are in minority, another set of rules while you are in majority).

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 11:19

Sajan wrote:So are you advocating that anyone who doesn't acknowledge the sentiment regarding cow-slaughter in India should be beaten up ?
< snip >
To any impartial observer, you are showing the same symptoms that you are accusing the islamists of (i.e. one set of rules while you are in minority, another set of rules while you are in majority).


Yes.

They are effective aren't they?

Can you suggest anything more civilized? Not being that way has not helped Hindu sentiment one whit.

As this thread shows, once again...

Maybe the methods of Evanjihadis and Islamists are desirable after all? A long as they are applied to someone else.
Last edited by shiv on 02 Apr 2007 11:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Anand K » 02 Apr 2007 11:20

Quote Sajan
Have you heard of "ezhava memorial" ? I am posting the following for your benefit. I think that should be enough to prove how under the Travancore monarchy, lowercastes and minorities were systematically discriminated.


Sakhave, you are tying to imply that the "Padmanabha Dasa" system somehow authorized the King to "exterminate the enemies of the faith and the upper class" a-la the Islamic King, being Zil-e-Illahi ("Shadow of God")unleashing Jihad on the Kufr. The Padmanabha Dasa system was effectively a "charter" with the people/nobles that promised a return from the Law of Primogeniture to "Marumakkattayam" (i.e the king stays unmarried....oh okay, the king's biological descendants have no right to the throne and the nephew is the heir). The last king tried to put his son on the throne and this led to a civil war that nearly destroyed Travancore you see. The Padmanabha Dasa system had NOTHING to do with religious fundamentalism or even chaturvanya as you claim.
The enemies of the state were dispatched without mercy.... in some quite heinous methods if I may add, .... and these were mostly the high caste Hindu nobles hnair had mentioned. The mainstay of the Travancore forces were the “Maravppadaâ€
Last edited by Anand K on 02 Apr 2007 11:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sajan » 02 Apr 2007 11:22

You don't support the Ten Commandments *being displayed*, but you have not stated whether you agree with those Ten commandments or not

Religion is a strictly personal choice. As long as my choices are not imposed on others (which is what the display of 10 commandments does or banning the cow slaughter does), it is immaterial to you as to whether I agree with all/some/none of the 10 commandments.

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Postby SRoy » 02 Apr 2007 11:25

Sajan wrote:
but lack of acknowledgement of the sentiment that cow slaughter is abhorrent to some should be a red line that is handled by beating the person who crosses it

So are you advocating that anyone who doesn't acknowledge the sentiment regarding cow-slaughter in India should be beaten up ?

Using the same logic, what if someone in US says that "lack of acknowledgement of the sentiment that 10 commandments are the foundation of western judicial system and hence anyone who crosses that line by opposing the display of 10 commandments in a US courthouse should be beaten up" ?

To any impartial observer, you are showing the same symptoms that you are accusing the islamists of (i.e. one set of rules while you are in minority, another set of rules while you are in majority).


And any impartial observer will notice that your are creating a strawman argument with you "what if" crap.

1. Sentiment w.r.t. to cow slaughter is being overlooked as ascertained with the facts from law in force in Kerala and WB (with some NE states).

2. Your "what if" lines are mere conjectures, injected here to derail the thread.

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 11:26

Sajan wrote:
You don't support the Ten Commandments *being displayed*, but you have not stated whether you agree with those Ten commandments or not

Religion is a strictly personal choice. As long as my choices are not imposed on others (which is what the display of 10 commandments does or banning the cow slaughter does), it is immaterial to you as to whether I agree with all/some/none of the 10 commandments.


Indeed religion is a personal choice. Killing cows is not your religion is it?

My religion abhors the killing of all animals, including cows. Why is your choice of killing cows being imposed upon me, flouting and insulting my religion?

Should your choice be OK over my religion?

Why not have my religion over your choice?

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Postby abhischekcc » 02 Apr 2007 11:38

Aaha, so the esteemed BR members have started discussing food, eh.

This topic is entering the terminal stage as per the behaviour of the species BRus ravenous. Whenever ppl run out of arguments to make, they start discussing food.

So, we have gone from abstract conceptualization to food over the weekend :mrgreen:

Did we manage to discuss the implication of religion on national security, as was the wont behind the thread? :P

I guess time to safely shaeedize this topic.

Raju

Postby Raju » 02 Apr 2007 11:41

the 'food' discussed in this topic is intricately linked to the religious belief ...any compromise on that 'food' and the religion will collapse or so I am led to believe.

But I believe that the categories of animals being discussed on this thread, viz dogs, cows and in other instances pigeons, lambs etc are animals with certain divine characteristics that seem to be particularly associated with man. A dog was the sole companian Yudhistra was left with on his final journey, and is a very symbolic statement. Cows, pigeons, lambs etc seem to have been particularly created to give companionship to man seeing how important their sacrifice was in certain rituals that were practiced by the ancients. It seems their sacrifice was a good substitute to human sacrifice itself which means that their importance rating was pretty high on the body-soul matrix.

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Postby abhischekcc » 02 Apr 2007 12:04

Raju wrote:the 'food' discussed in this topic is intricately linked to the religious belief ...any compromise on that 'food' and the religion will collapse or so I am led to believe.

But I believe that the categories of animals being discussed on this thread, viz dogs, cows and in other instances pigeons, lambs etc are animals with certain divine characteristics that seem to be particularly associated with man. A dog was the sole companian Yudhistra was left with on his final journey, and is a very symbolic statement. Cows, pigeons, lambs etc seem to have been particularly created to give companionship to man seeing how important their sacrifice was in certain rituals that were practiced by the ancients. It seems their sacrifice was a good substitute to human sacrifice itself which means that their importance rating was pretty high on the body-soul matrix.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Har de har.

BTW, since when did pigeon sacrifice become part of Hindu rituals??

body-soul matrix

Nice. :D

Raju

Postby Raju » 02 Apr 2007 12:10

BTW, since when did pigeon sacrifice become part of Hindu rituals??


Lamb and cow sacrifice was practiced during the vedic era. Pigeons were sacrificed as per descriptions given in the old testament. All of these are believed to be 'clean animals'.

Anyways nice to know that you are being so entertained. :D

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Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2007 14:59

Don't lose track of the beef discussion so easily.

Check the links if you wish, but I will quote the relevant figures.

1) India ranks 49th in a list of 49 countries for beef consumption

2) In case it is felt that the above statistic is because of poverty or hunger, you will find that India has over 280 million cattle, and has 15% of the world cattle population

India has plenty of cattle, but Indians in general do not eat them. This statement is no big deal. Everyone knows that Hindus have a thing against eating beef. Any reference to any medium with info about India will tell you this, and tell you this fact without rancor or criticism.

So if an Indian complains that he cannot get beef in India he has a valid complaint, and the reason is well known and widely accepted. Such Indians exist and are part of India.

But what if an Indian complains that his inability to get beef in India has something to do with discrimination against other faiths? That is the exact context in which the discussion about beef came up in this thread.

Let me quote the first time beef was brought into the discussion

.this idea of "fundamentally accepting of all faiths" doesn't square with a lot of the reality on the ground. If the premise were real, then we wouldn't have beef being banned,


See what I mean? The alleged (and false) "unavailability" of beef in India is being quoted as an example of intolerance of Hindus to other faiths.

An Indian who alleges that lack of beef in India is proof of discrimination against other faiths surely has an agenda that goes beyond the yearning for beef. Who else would want to use beef availability as a stick to beat Hindus or India with? It occurs to me that a person who fundamentally has something against Hindus will complain that the relative lack of beef in India is aimed at making people of other religions suffer.

But this specious intolerant argument is tolerated by the very people who are accused of intolerance. Indian tolerance tolerates the intolerant, but they don't know a good thing when it hits them in the face.
Last edited by shiv on 02 Apr 2007 15:10, edited 1 time in total.

abhischekcc
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Postby abhischekcc » 02 Apr 2007 15:09

Thanks for specifying.

However, neither is pork widely available in India. Is that a sign of muslims discriminating against everybody else?

Looking at the link you provided, India does not figure in the top 32 pork eating countries.

I think that most commoners in India prefer to avoid controversial areas.

negi
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Postby negi » 02 Apr 2007 15:16

Well when it comes to eating habits in India ,how has been the general trend for say last decade or two ,has the number of non-vegetarians increased vis a vis vegetarians (specially considering the fact that nowadays a lot is being aired about avoiding red meat etc..)?

Btw admins Radar thread needs immediate attention,else who knows I&B ministry may ban BR for uploading explicit content. :shock:


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