Religion Thread - 8

Locked
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

ShauryaT wrote:Sadler, any pointers to the differences? So far, the books I have provide a certain unity of flow between the old testament, the bible and the Quran.

TIA.
I think this piggybacking, by jesus himself (who used Hebrew scriptures), later christians and moslems, upon the Hebrew faith and scriptures had to do with the astounding poverty of scriptures in their own religions. Compared to the wealth of scriptures and history of the Jews, they had pittance. Hence the attempt, and to my chagrin a successful one, to usurp our scriptures by first jesus- whose followers claimed that he was our messiah- and then by mo'.

For 400 odd yrs, there was no mention of jesus as divine. he was simply a prophet. a few of the gospels (i forget which ones now) do not even mention his "immaculate" birth. all this came later when the hebrew word for "young woman" got mistranslated as "virgin (the greek parthenos from Isiah 7:14 per a book i recently read)." This was in an attempt to gain jesus legitimacy as the messiah prophesied in jewish texts. Suddenly he is divine. Now, dont get me wrong. i got no problems with either jesus or christians claiming that he was god/son of god/the best thing to happen since sliced bread. The problem is when they steal my f***ing history and claim it for their own.

Mo' pulled another jesus (or alternatively early christians) when he did the same to the jews.
S.Valkan
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 01:29

Post by S.Valkan »

Sadler wrote: Please be aware of it and desist from using terms such as "Abrahamic faiths" to describe christianism and islam. THESE ARE NOT ABRAHAMIC FAITHS. THERE IS ONLY ONE ABRAHAMIC FAITH: THAT OF THE HEBREWS.
I am not sure if you understand the usage, Sadler.

The word "Abrahamic" is used to refer to a specific kind of religion/faith,- where monotheism is accompanied by an iconoclastic zeal against idolatry.

There are several types of monotheisms, and ONLY the Abrahamic type is virulently against idolatry, and hence one has to distinguish them somehow.

Although the Hebrew faith poses no challenge or harm to Hinduism, the essential contribution of Abraham's 'smashing of idols' to the development of the intolerance of idolatry by Christians and Muslims is incontrovertible.

It is because of this reason that the word "Abrahamic" faith is used to denote the strain of monotheism that poses the gravest threat to Hinduism.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Sadler wrote: The question is: What are hindus going to do to ensure their own survival??
Thats why ISRO is launching Chandrayan, the Moon probe! 8)

Seriously there is a big disconnect between the present US driven by rapture and that founded in 1776.

Has any one seen the cover of December 2006, Harpers magazine with the neocon icons?


Image
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

Raju wrote:
JwalaMukhi wrote:'Goa Inquisition was most merciless and cruel'
link: http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/14inter1.htm
That is correct. But the bigger question is how can we settle scores today ? How do we go about showing those Goan Christians their proper place ?
The above IMO is uncalled for. Certainly, you can argue in terms of educating todays children and contemporary India on the atrocities of the catholic inquisition. But, do it in a way that shatters the high moral ground these catholics unjustifiably usurp without sinking to their level. IOW, do it with Indian smarts.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5350
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Post by ShauryaT »

Calvin,

Let me try to answer your questions in my own way.

>>Ok, Ok, but who is going to determine what the Dharma should be?

People will, through their representatives and through the structures of governance.

>>Is this going to be an individual who sits in a Court of Law?

Certainly, one of the tests they would have to factor in is do the laws and judgments pass the test of Dharma. i.e: Are they just and right? Are they consistent with the inherent nature of things?

>>Is this the President?

Well, not in the system we have now, where the office is almost meaningless.

>>Is this the LS or RS?

Yes, and what they pass has to pass the muster of being Dharmic, i.e, what is right and just and not violate the inherent nature or properties of things.

>>How does this system work?

Think of the constitution as an exposition of the preamble. The word Dharma becomes part of the preamble. So, instead of

SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC

It becomes

SOVEREIGN DHARMIC DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC

(Drop that Socialist word also, while we are at it)

>>To what extent are the precepts of dharma going to be subject to the loudest group (not the largest, the loudest) in the Hindu universe?

To the same extent that any issue is today, which are in the end subject to the constitution.

>>From the foregoing discussion we know that many Hindus are positively economically impacted by cow slaughter, as are many non-Hindus, so this is probably not even going to be resolved by the greatest good argument.

No, it is not an economic argument alone as it is inherently tied to the life of an animal that nurtures us. So, if in the present disposition a majority decides to ban cow slaughter, and a 1000 years from now, decide to reverse it, there is nothing inherently wrong. No fundamental rights have been trampled upon, have they? The greater good cannot be an economic argument alone. The nature of what is right today may not be the same tomorrow. There are some things, whose nature changes, such as the killing of a cow. There are some that do not, such as the properties of fire the nature of the sun and yes, the right to life of a man.

>>Secondly, does this mean that we are going to have to read up on the Hindu scriptures so that we can be educated enough to rebut the claims made on behalf of dharma by one group or another?

Yes. To the extent that Shri Krishna’s Gita helps you or judges understand the essence of Dharma. Similarly, a book by Shri Calvin or Shri Valkan could be read. Is there any book that has been written forever to theorize on what is just and right for all times? Since a great volume has already been written on the issue and it is Dharmic systems that the people of the land have lived in and prospered under, the most, there is much to be gained by a study of these scriptures.

However, these or any scriptures or book cannot be held as the sole reason and be the deterministic argument. The judgments have to flow from the words of the constitution.

>>(In a Constitutional system, where individual rights are called out, ultimately, there is a constitution for reference, and a Supreme Court passes judgement on the constitutionality of the law)

No fundamental change in the process. The only fundamental change is the concept of a “divorceâ€
Last edited by ShauryaT on 03 Apr 2007 20:59, edited 1 time in total.
Vishy_mulay
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 09 Feb 2007 09:21
Location: Melbourne

Post by Vishy_mulay »

I do make one solemn request to BRF members. Please do not lump christianism and islam with the Hebrew faith. That these religions have forced themselves on Jews is an established fact. Please be aware of it and desist from using terms such as "Abrahamic faiths" to describe christianism and islam. THESE ARE NOT ABRAHAMIC FAITHS. THERE IS ONLY ONE ABRAHAMIC FAITH: THAT OF THE HEBREWS.
Sadler, I was (am) ignorant about the fine differences which Christianity and Islam could not comprehend and Jewish scholars didn't bother to clear. One of my very good Jewish friend (who had Rabbinical training) actually summarised it as Christendom got hold of Torah and interpreted it through the limited biased view to gain legitimacy without taking into account the fine philosophical understanding (in this regard I was surprised how many different interpretations and commentaries are available for Torah from 1st century). Sensitization occurred later and Judaism suffered because of the perceived superiority of Christianity (quite parallele to how SD suffered during colonization).
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Raju wrote:
JwalaMukhi wrote:'Goa Inquisition was most merciless and cruel'
link: http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/14inter1.htm
That is correct. But the bigger question is how can we settle scores today ? How do we go about showing those Goan Christians their proper place ?
Raju, What do you mean by this? Please explain and be warned that you need to provide a good explaination or face the music.
Greg
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 29
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:42

Post by Greg »

@sadler
What do the forum members here think will happen to these faiths if the followers of the European god ------(and I say this with the prejudice that it deserves as the spread of christianism and its purported evangelical bent is the newest form of colonialism. IOW, killing satan worshipping heathens is no longer profitable as the west/white man and his god can sell the heathen his burgers, cokes, etc and make a buck. A dead hindu aint buying cokes anytime soon, know what I mean?)
you know that Jews have fluorished quite well in the US - which is more or less run by the followers of Christ. I daresay, people of other faiths have also done quite well.
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

abhischekcc wrote:

For a Hindu, the right to be left alone also is an individual right. 8) Something that the EJs abuse. You seem to have a fixation that if the red carpet is not rolled for EJs in India by Hindus, then Hindus must be an intolerant people. I think the inherent contradiction of your view is obvious to anyone who is not god-toxified.
Another significant addition to BRF Vocabulary. Good one, Mr. AB.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

all inheritance means good and bad.. history reflects many.. that which carries forward are those that are good. bad history should not be left as is, and talk about it negatively, but should be used as good feedback for the future strategic and social restructuring.

I have another theory..

The word "God" and its understanding inherited from the word "Human" and its understanding. Hence God has a -is a- relationship with Humans. Hence, if God understanding is something else, then we should not use the term "God".
Last edited by SaiK on 03 Apr 2007 21:08, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Post by shiv »

I think Raju was trying to be sarcastic - but did not construct his sentence right.

Anyhow - I guess he must reply to the query.
Raju

Post by Raju »

well...I am trying to know the motivations of the poster, when someone raises a past instance of injustice there also needs to be a closure. What else ?
Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 259
Joined: 13 Feb 1999 12:31

Post by Kumar »

Historically hindus have had a bad experience with non-dharmic religions in power. Islamic rule in India & Christian rule in Goa were the most explicitly violent. British rule OTOH didn't do so much external/physical violence, but has done a lot of violence on the fundamentals of hinduism using state patronage.

Vast land and property holdings of churches in many Indian cities, usually in prime locations, were essnetially a gift by the British to the churches. No one has so far questioned how the churches acquired those huge properties, and whether anything needs/can be done regarding some repatriation.

Partition again confirmed the fear that given given sufficient political power , non-dharmics will choose to wipe out hindus & hinduism, rather than opt to co-exist as equals. Happenings in the NE christian states also add fuel to the fire.

The present government has a strong minority face. But the way it has tried to outdo every previous government in "minority appeasement" while simultaneously trying to divide hindus on caste-lines, has reaffirmed such fears.

What real evidence is there that Hinduism in India will be protected if non-dharmics gain political power?

And given that only homeland for hindus is India, this question gains a poignancy when hindus see mass-scale, foreign money and inspiration dominated, organized evangelization being attempted.

One can go on and on about individual-rights and constitutions etc. But that is not what hindus are worried about. Hindu worries are not that much about present, but about the future. Hindus are worried about the future where a dominant non-dharmic religion will twist/modify existing rules/constitution/rights etc to put hinduism at a distinct disadvantage against other non-dharmic faiths, as it has been done repeatedly in the past.

I had asked few months ago whether people grok that a reaction is brewing in the hindu community. Punjab and Uttrakhand elections confirm some of that. Even this thread confirms that. Even though I did grok a disquiet amongst hindus, I was still taken by surprise, by the intensity of feelings on these threads.

For hindus, India is effectively the only home-land. And any encroachments by non-dharmic religions, with repeated records of intolerance towards hinduism whenever they gained demographic/political power, touches a very raw nerve.
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

Abhijit wrote: ....the EJ activities are group activities - there are traceable fund sources belonging to registered organizations.
Good answer. After all these threads, it should be obvious that EVJ are PBUH and have an extremely well-organized agenda supported in many places by direct "donations" by the us govt to "faith-based orgs." Only a PBUH would claim ignorance of such facts.
S.Valkan
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 01:29

Post by S.Valkan »

Sadler wrote:Compared to the wealth of scriptures and history of the Jews, they had pittance. Hence the attempt, and to my chagrin a successful one, to usurp our scriptures by first jesus- whose followers claimed that he was our messiah- and then by mo'.
The older a religion is, the more "history" it would have at its disposal.

The Torah aka Old Testament is known to have been embellished with myths and ethical codes from the Babylonians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Assyrians and other religious groups who unfortunately are no longer here to disparage the "usurpation" of the wealth of THEIR scriptures and history.

Since first Christianity, and then Islam, lay claims to have supplanted the 'older' revelation(s) and inherited the place of the ones they replaced, it is expected that they would try to "usurp" the history and scriptures of the ones they claim to have replaced.

The problem is more acute between Islam and Judaism.

Both Judaism and Islam have a purer monotheism than the Christian Holy Trinity.

So, while it is easy for Islam to disparage the "polytheism" of Christianity, Islam cannot reconcile itself to the existence of another, and much older, tradition of "pure" monotheism, without undermining its own stature.

Hence, the attempt by Islam to paint Judaism as having corrupted the original revelation ( Who was Abraham's "firstborn" that he sacrificed ? Issac or Ishmael ? ), so that it can retain the pride of place.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Post by svinayak »

Sadler wrote:
Abhijit wrote: ....the EJ activities are group activities - there are traceable fund sources belonging to registered organizations.
Good answer. After all these threads, it should be obvious that EVJ are PBUH and have an extremely well-organized agenda supported in many places by direct "donations" by the us govt to "faith-based orgs." Only a PBUH would claim ignorance of such facts.
Tracable fund source from foreign organization and also foreign govt agencies and dept.
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

shiv wrote:
But some are not tolerant of Hindus and Hindu sentiment. Tolerance for those who do not tolerate Hindus in India is fading.
I hope that this happens soon enough. In the final analysis, one can see that it may well be in the best interests of indian christians themselves to stop this EVJ-PBUH combine. Otherwise all they are doing is being mute spectators to the hijacking of their religion. I'd like to think that Hindu-christian relations are not irretrievably damaged as Hindu-Moslems relations are.

But, like Shiv said, the ball is in the court of the aggressor here which clearly is the PBUH-EVJ combine.
Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3512
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Post by Rony »

Greg wrote:
you know that Jews have fluorished quite well in the US - which is more or less run by the followers of Christ. I daresay, people of other faiths have also done quite well.
Fredom of religion in US is good-but only according to the christian and western standards.for example while the US has freedom of religion for islam and judaism,the "people of book",does they have the same freedom of religion to Hindus and other "pagans and heathens" ?.When i say freedom of religion,i mean recognition of that religious beleif by uncle sam.In "secular" france, Hinduism is not even recognized as a religion.even today in US,the southern baptists offical convention starts with a resolution to convert "heathens and pagans" with Hindus of course on the top list.Just imagine, a Hindu organization in India starting its conferance with a resolution of converting christians and islam to Hinduism.Our p-sec media and elite coupled with vote bank politicians will rip them off to pieces on television within hours !.so yes there is freedom of religion in US but no where in the scale of India.
Last edited by Rony on 03 Apr 2007 21:24, edited 1 time in total.
vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Post by vsudhir »

Kumar,

Nicely put. Your words have touched a chord in what I've been (not so successfully) trying to argue on this board for a while now.

The existential threat that an SDF perceives, for the free practice of SD thought and way of life a few generations into the future - subtle though it be and oft riddled with doubt, is not the figment of somebody's imagination. It is out there and it's presence is being felt in various ways.

This concern/fear/insecurity/whatever is the first step to acknowledging that a problem exists. It is the edifice of the hope that we aam Hindu janta out there are not blinded or dhimmified entirely. More than Punjab/Uttarakhand, the pragmatic (yup, vegetarian too) Gujju middle class in whom I saw the first inkling to a Hindu backlash, borne perhaps out of this insecurity.

SD concerns need to be urgently addressed. India remains the only home of Hinduism, repositary to some of the greatest spiritual knowledge in the world. It merits our concern.

Std disclaimers hold. Etc.
Manny
BRFite
Posts: 859
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 22:16
Location: Texas

Post by Manny »

Calvin wrote:Individual rights are relevant here precisely because the genesis of this particular discussion pertained to Evangelization, and the right to practice and "propagate" one's religion. The contention is that this right to "propagate" one's religion is a concept that doesn't exist in Dharma, is ultimately injurious to Dharma Followers, and therefore should never have been part of the constitution.

Individual rights and liberties are in the realm of civics. Dharma etc is in the realm of religion and faith of the individual. It is the civic rights of individuals that protects the individuals right to belief. Dharma or otherwise.

As for as the right to practice and "propogate" ones religion. is actually an Individual right to free speech. Basically one stands on the soap box and freely speaks about the virtues of his/her religion and it gives an opportunity to others who may disagree and provide information contraty to the original speaker. This arbitration of ideas in an open society forces the bubble of truth to rise above. Thats the theory and concept. There is nothing wrong with that.

In an institutionalzed evangalism.. Its not restricted to individuals... Its a conspiracy for ethnic and cultural cleansing of societies. Primarily of foreign power. The Catholic Church to the Southern Baptist convention, they conspire to ethnically cleanse societies. They strategize, they recruit Ph.Ds and MBA and statisticians to do compettive analysis and collect vast sums of monies with the sole intent of cultural cleansing. The Joshua project is one such organization.

http://www.joshuaproject.net/

This does not fall under individual liberties and right to free speech. This falls under conspiracy in the scale of spread of communism.

East Timur is a prime example. Whats happening in Eastern India is another example.


Manny
Last edited by Manny on 03 Apr 2007 21:29, edited 1 time in total.
JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Raju wrote:well...I am trying to know the motivations of the poster, when someone raises a past instance of injustice there also needs to be a closure. What else ?
Well, Raju, the answer to your question is in the second link I posted, I am reposting below to clarify.

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/mar/16gupta.htm
[b]You may say that all these terrible things happened hundred of years ago and have little relevance today. But, it is precisely such thinking that has enabled the perpetrators of religious persecution in India in the name of Christ to get away without even an apology[
The idea is as Sadler pointed out, not get into a Stockholm syndrome and start praising the Perpetarators. Just as an example: How about demanding an apology for "Massacre at Jallianwalabagh"? instead of praising the colonizers. These are constant reminders to be kept alive so that humanity does not plunge into that mistake again.
pradeepe
BRFite
Posts: 741
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 20:46
Location: Our culture is different and we cannot live together - who said that?

Post by pradeepe »

Minor quibble.
It becomes

SOVEREIGN DHARMIC DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC

(Drop that Socialist word also, while we are at it)
IIRC, "socialist" has been dropped a long time ago. Will look up the preamble again.
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

A great post, Mr. Vina.
vina wrote:
But look at the same record elsewhere.. What does the Pope pontificate against most in Europe.. Oh my Gosh.. Secularism and increasing secularization .. What about the Muslims ? .. The general islamic attitude to secularism is too well known (which Islamic majority country other than Turkey where secularism is military imposed is so ?) ..So why is secularism which is good for Christians and Muslims in India not the cherished thing among the religious in their Europe , and the Islamic world.. Is it because, they are losing their flock , or the fear of doing so ?

Now coming back to prosyletization, it is the natural response of any entrenched power group to fight for the protection of their turn.

What does the Pope do in Latin America, where the Evangelicals are focusing massive amounts of resources and efforts.. predominantly in the catholic countries such as Brazil etc ? Do they roll over and die ? .. Isnt the Catholic church led by the Pope fighting back ?

If some one like the Sajan dude comes up and says it is a free market.. well. get real, it is not, and it never is.. Not in ANY country.. What is the harsh response to Islam in countries in norther europe (France, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands etc) but a response to what they percieve as an attack on their way of live (post Christian - liberal way of life mind you). ? Why do you expect the Hindus in India to react differently ? Why the double standards between the response of the Oireopeans and the Indians to a similar power projection threat ?

Fundamentally , do the people in India want to see Mega Churches, TV Evangelists and the folks like Pat Robertson and his hate speech a free run in India, especially given India's sensitivity to religion and delicate social fabric.. Absolutely NOT .. Do they have a fundamental right to come into India and propagate ? .. No. The rights to propagate religion is for Indian citizens and does not automatically entitle foreigners to come in and do stuff which has severe social, political consequences and the potential for conflict.. ABSOLUTELY NOT and the govt is well within its rights to regulate that kind of activity.

....Finally I would definitely do away with the religion thread. Get the focus into the power/political effects of religion.. That is a far more important and relevant thing for this forum
Raju

Post by Raju »

They are reminders alright, but they are also festering wounds.

Our angst...is it directed towards the outsider or to the insider ? If it is to the latter then how much longer shall we go on seeking for some closure ?

Shall the society remain perpetually divided on this basis...if not, what is the timeframe ? Especially considering the Generation-X of any community isn't exactly aware of these historical issues ? Are we seeking an apology from them as well ? Or is the idea to remind them...so that they can apologize ?

An apology for Jallianwalabagh was sought from the British IIRC, but they haven't acknowledged it yet !
How about demanding an apology for "Massacre at Jallianwalabagh"? instead of praising the colonizers. These are constant reminders to be kept alive so that humanity does not plunge into that mistake again.
Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 259
Joined: 13 Feb 1999 12:31

Post by Kumar »

Raju wrote:Our angst...is it directed towards the outsider or to the insider ? If it is to the latter then how much longer shall we go on seeking for some closure ?

Shall the society remain perpetually divided on this basis...if not, what is the timeframe ? Especially considering the Generation-X of any community isn't exactly aware of these historical issues ? Are we seeking an apology from them as well ? Or is the idea to remind them...so that they can apologize ?
Raju,

Jihadi/Evanjihadi efforts are the ones that reopen those wounds, and remind hindus what horrors could yet come to pass.

So for a proper closure, organized assaults & encroachments upon hinduism hve to be tackled.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5350
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Post by ShauryaT »

pradeepe wrote:IIRC, "socialist" has been dropped a long time ago. Will look up the preamble again.
What the 42nd added in the preamble, was not what was amended in the 43rd or 44th or subsequently, to my knowledge.
Raju

Post by Raju »

Evanjihadi efforts are the ones that reopen those wounds, and remind hindus what could yet come to be.
Yes, but some posters here make no such distinction between evanjehadis or the rest. Reading through posts one gets the impression that the angst is towards a larger 'them'.

So who is actually to be blamed ?? Evanjehadis/Islamists or entire communities ? Is this distinction going to be enforced upon in each and every subsequent post...or is there going to be the 'broad brush treatment'.
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

S.Valkan wrote:
Sadler wrote: Please be aware of it and desist from using terms such as "Abrahamic faiths" to describe christianism and islam. THESE ARE NOT ABRAHAMIC FAITHS. THERE IS ONLY ONE ABRAHAMIC FAITH: THAT OF THE HEBREWS.
I am not sure if you understand the usage, Sadler.

The word "Abrahamic" is used to refer to a specific kind of religion/faith,- where monotheism is accompanied by an iconoclastic zeal against idolatry.

There are several types of monotheisms, and ONLY the Abrahamic type is virulently against idolatry, and hence one has to distinguish them somehow.

Although the Hebrew faith poses no challenge or harm to Hinduism, the essential contribution of Abraham's 'smashing of idols' to the development of the intolerance of idolatry by Christians and Muslims is incontrovertible.

It is because of this reason that the word "Abrahamic" faith is used to denote the strain of monotheism that poses the gravest threat to Hinduism.
What i am asking for is that the term Abrahmic faith be restricted to the Jewish faith only. That the others claim kinship with Abraham is no reason to club them together with my faith.

You are also absolutely right in that nothing set off ancient jews as idol worship. Having said that, Abraham and others of his times and their descendants did not have hindus in mind when passing their strictures. The strictures against idol worship (and these are extremely strict or even virulent as you put it) are more aimed at preventing the Jew from 'straying' than preventing a non-jew from worshipping an idol. I have talked to many jews: nominal, orthodox, even a few ultra-orthodox, modern, zionist et al. And i explicitly put forward this question: What do you think of a Hindu from India worshipping an idol? Bar none, i got the reply that it was none of their (meaning jewish) concern. It just does not concern us. It is none of our business. And, it is this inward projection of "intolerance" that allows us to pass angry (virulent?) judgement on our own people but does not allow us to extend that to non-adherents.

I am not sure if you will be satisfied with the above. I simply do not have your understanding of faith, even of my own faith as i am a nominal jew. But be assured that the day i find a jew who passes such judgement on non-jews (be they hindu, buddhist or even christian), they will find themselves with me squarely in their faces.

Added Later: If however, you clarify that by Abrahamic you mean the Jewish faith only, then i have no problem with your words above. No faith, neither mine nor anyone else's should be above criticism. There are numerous passages in ancient Hebrew texts that can only be called intolerant in today's milieu. So, why is then that unlike christians and moslems, we simply have not inflicted the kind of murderous righteous slaughter that they have? The same could be said of Hindus/Hindu faith.
Last edited by Sadler on 03 Apr 2007 21:52, edited 1 time in total.
JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Raju wrote:
They are reminders alright, but they are also festering wounds.

Our angst...is it directed towards the outsider or to the insider ? If it is to the latter then how much longer shall we go on seeking for some closure ?


Shall the society remain perpetually divided on this basis...if not, what is the timeframe ? Especially considering the Generation-X of any community isn't exactly aware of these historical issues ? Are we seeking an apology from them as well ? Or is the idea to remind them...so that they can apologize ?
There is no need for angst for the sake of angst. The idea is to make the society to be vigilante and help the society to counter any such tendencies towards such atrotcities.

The idea is all about integration. The integration will come only if mistakes are identified and remedial actions are taken. The remedial actions could just be being vigilant. The idea is not about just apology, it is about acknowledgement of the wrongs and avoidance of repetition. It is not about making Generation-X feel guilty, it is about creating awareness. Most poeple when they are made aware gnerally will see the wrong. It is better that they are made of aware of these issues instead of sweeping them under the carpet. The time frame is difficult one.. However, one thing is certain, sweeping them under carpet, just because it is inconvenient to deal with the truth is unacceptable.
Raju

Post by Raju »

The remedial actions could just be being vigilant. The idea is not about just apology, it is about acknowledgement of the wrongs and avoidance of repetition.
How is it going to be repeated ? Are we going to be invaded again ?

Are we seeking acknowledgement from insiders or outsiders ? Plz clarify this ?

And secondly how do we know many people do not acknowledge the wrongs and are silent about it ? Or is the intention to get people belonging to X,Y communities on a guilt trip ??
TSJones
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3022
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Post by TSJones »

Elijah had a worship competition with the Phoenicians(?). The Phoenician priests and Elijah set up their own alters right next to each other and they invited everyone to witness the competition.

He told the priests to have their god light their alter fire. Well, the priests got to chanting and singing for hours. No alter fire. Then they cut themsleves and poured their blood over the alter and chanted and sang some more.Still no fire.

Elijah however, had the inside track with God. He prayed and then thunder rumbled and then a bolt of lightning struck his alter and a fire started! Everyone was amazed. Elijah then had the priests killed for being frauds.

The above story is from memory only. I may not have every word right so please accept it as paraphrasing. I have attended Sunday school since I was a three year old child, so some of the stories I could have mixed up.

I have stories about Daniel in Babylonia too! Did you know their god was a dragon? Archeologists have found this dragon motief in ancient Babylon. Forget the gods name but its impressive. Daniel had a competition with it, too. :)
Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 259
Joined: 13 Feb 1999 12:31

Post by Kumar »

There are two main groups of religions and they are often called "Dharmic" and "Abrahamic".

But most of the issues that energise people are related to proselytizing part of Christianity and Islam.

Since Jews have a first claim on Abraham, and if they don't wish to be clubbed together with proselytizing religions, then it is better to respect that wish.

I think in Indian context, wherever one could use the term "Abrahamic" one can as well use the term "Non-Dharmic". And just as "Judeo-christian" is often used, "Christo-Islamic" could be used too.
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

Greg wrote:@sadler
What do the forum members here think will happen to these faiths if the followers of the European god ------(and I say this with the prejudice that it deserves as the spread of christianism and its purported evangelical bent is the newest form of colonialism. IOW, killing satan worshipping heathens is no longer profitable as the west/white man and his god can sell the heathen his burgers, cokes, etc and make a buck. A dead hindu aint buying cokes anytime soon, know what I mean?)
you know that Jews have fluorished quite well in the US - which is more or less run by the followers of Christ. I daresay, people of other faiths have also done quite well.
Excellent point. And i am surprised that it took such a long time to bring this up.

The reason is that this survival and flourishing as you call it was not unchallenged. Jews were still discriminated against. But here in the US there was a "sub-human" even lower than the despicable jew: the negro. We escaped, therefore, meeting the mercy of jesus due to the presence of slavery. This is a very cynical statement, but nonetheless logical and i believe to be true.

having said that, let us also not forget that this nation that wiped out an entire race (native american) also ended slavery (albeit not soon enough) of its own accord. IOW, there were enough well meaning christians who found the act of slavery to be morally despicable. And it was a powerful enough country such that no outside forces could have forced Americans to shed this noxious practice. Americans themselves did it. There's a huge section of the US that is still naive in the affairs of the world. Who may donate to their churches but have no real grasp of the agenda of the ones using those donations.

In the US today, there exists a huge section of (nominal) christians who are devoutly religious and proudly display the bumper sticker "I do not have to love Bush to love America." It is these christians who have shed their earlier baggage and are ready to be devoutly religious without any pretensions of religious superiority.

Like i said, the nominal christian wears the above bumper sticker and is most likely a democrat.

In a few recent discussions with Indians, i have been told that the last statement is true of a significant number of Indian christians as well. In which case, their support should be enlisted in the cause against EVJ. Now, the question is whether there is enough awareness in the IC (indian christian) to realize that joining forces with fellow hindu indians is also in the best interests of the IC??
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

This is an email message / not open link.
The Brahmin community today, is in the cross hairs of the Christian evangelists. Conversion to chrsitianity among pattars has reached alarming proportions in places like Mumbai, Chennai and other parts of the country. It is time we woke up to this serpent in the grass and saved ourselves and our children from etting converted.

According to a Christian historian, Dr. T. R. de Souza:

"At least from 1540 onwards, and in the island of Goa before that year, all the Hindu idols had been annihilated or had disappeared, all the temples had been destroyed and their sites and building material was in most cases utilized to erect new Christian Churches and chapels. Various viceregal and Church council decrees banished the Hindu priests from the Portuguese territories; the public practices of Hindu rites including marriage rites, were banned; the state took upon itself the task of bringing up Hindu orphan children; the Hindus were denied certain employments, while the Christians were preferred; it was ensured that the Hindus would not harass those who became Christians, and on the contrary, the Hindus were obliged to assemble periodically in Churches to listen to preaching or to the refutation of their religion."

"A particularly grave abuse was practiced in Goa in the form of 'mass baptism' and what went before it. The practice was begun by the Jesuits and was alter initiated by the Franciscans also. The Jesuits staged an annual mass baptism on the Feast of the Conversion of St. Paul (January 25), and in order to secure as many neophytes as possible, a few days before the ceremony the Jesuits would go through the streets of the Hindu quarter in pairs, accompanied by their Negro slaves, whom they would urge to seize the Hindus. When the blacks caught up a fugitive, they would smear his lips with a piece of beef, making him an 'untouchable' among his people. Conversion to Christianity was then his only option."

The Goan inquisition is regarded by all contemporary portrayals as the most violent inquisition ever executed by the Portuguese Catholic Church. It lasted from 1560 to 1812. The inquisition was set as a tribunal, headed by a judge, sent to Goa from Portugal and was assisted by two judicial henchmen. The judge was answerable to no one except to Lisbon and handed down punishments as he saw fit. The Inquisition Laws filled 230 pages and the palace where the Inquisition was conducted was known as the Big House and the Inquisition proceedings were always conducted behind closed shutters and closed doors. The screams of agony of the culprits (men, women, and children) could be heard in the streets, in the stillness of the night, as they were brutally interrogated, flogged, and slowly dismembered in front of their relatives. Eyelids were sliced off and extremities were amputated carefully, a person could remain conscious even though the only thing that remained was his torso and a head.

Diago de Boarda, a priest and his advisor Vicar General, Miguel Vazz had made a 41 point plan for torturing Hindus. Under this plan Viceroy Antano de Noronha issued in 1566, an order applicable to the entire area under Portuguese rule :

"I hereby order that in any area owned by my master, the king, nobody should construct a Hindu temple and such temples already constructed should not be repaired without my permission. If this order is transgressed, such temples shall be, destroyed and the goods in them shall be used to meet expenses of holy deeds, as punishment of such transgression."

In 1567 the campaign of destroying temples in Bardez met with success. At the end of it 300 Hindu temples were destroyed. Enacting laws, prohibition was laid from December 4, 1567 on rituals of Hindu marriages, sacred thread wearing and cremation. All the persons above 15 years of age were compelled to listen to Christian preaching, failing which they were punished.

A religious fatva was issued on the basis of the findings of Goa Inquiry Commission. It stated,"...Hereby we declare the decision that the conventions mentioned in the preamble of the fatva as stated below are permanently declared as useless, and therefore prohibited".

Prohibitions Regarding Marriages

* The instruments for Hindu songs shall not be played.
* While giving dowry the relatives of the bride and groom must not be invited.
* At the time of marriage, betel leaf packages (pan) must not be distributed either publicly or in private to the persons present.
* Flowers, or fried puris, betel nuts and leaves must not be sent to the heads of the houses of the bride or groom.
* Gotraj ceremony of family God must not be performed.
* On the day prior to a wedding, rice must not be husked, spices must not be pounded, grains must not be ground and other recipes for marriage feast must not be cooked.
* Pandals and festoons must not be used.
* Pithi should not be applied.
* The bride must not be accorded ceremonial welcome. The bride and groom must not be made to sit under pandal to convey blessings and best wishes to them.

Prohibitions Regarding Fasts, Post-death Rituals

* The poor must not be fed or ceremonial meals must not be served for the peace of the souls of the dead.
* There should be no fasting on ekadashi day.
* Fasting can be done according to the Christian principles.
* No rituals should be performed on the twelfth day after death, on moonless and full moon dates.
* No fasting should be done during lunar eclipse.

Conventions

* Hindu men should not wear dhoti either in public or in their houses. Women should not wear cholis .
* They should not plant Tulsi in their houses, compounds, gardens or any other place.

Following the law of 1567, orphans were kidnapped for converting them to Christianity.

On September 22, 1570 an order was issued that :

* The Hindus embracing Christianity will be exempted from land taxes for a period of 15 years.
* Nobody shall bear Hindu names or surnames.

In 1583 Hindu temples at Esolna and Kankolim were destroyed through army action.

"The fathers of the Church forbade the Hindus under terrible penalties the use of their own sacred books, and prevented them from all exercise of their religion. They destroyed their temples, and so harassed and interfered with the people that they abandoned the city in large numbers, refusing to remain any longer in a place where they had no liberty, and were liable to imprisonment, torture and death if they worshipped after their own fashion the gods of their fathers." wrote Sasetti, who was in India from 1578 to 1588.

An order was issued in June 1684 eliminating Konkani language and making it compulsory to speak Portuguese language. The law provided for dealing toughly with anyone using the local language. Following that law all the symbols of non-Christian sects were destroyed and the books written in local languages were burnt.

The Archbishop living on the banks of the Ethora had said during one of his lecture series, "The post of Inquiry Commission in Goa is regarded as holy." The women who opposed the assistants of the commission were put behind the bars and were used by them to satisfy their animal instincts. Then they were burnt alive as opponents of the established tenets of the Catholic church.

The victims of such inhuman laws of the Inquiry Commission included a French traveller named Delone. He was an eye witness to the atrocities, cruelty and reign of terror unleashed by priests. He published a book in 1687 describing the lot of helpless victims. While he was in jail he had heard the cries of tortured people beaten with instruments having sharp teeth. All these details are noted in Delone's book.

So harsh and notorious was the inquisition in Goa, that word of its brutality and horrors reached Lisbon but nothing was done to stop this notoriety and escalating barbarity and it continued for two hundred more years. No body knows the exact number of Goans subjected to these diabolical tortures, but perhaps it runs into hundreds of thousands, may be even more. The abominations of inquisitions continued until a brief respite was given in 1774 but four years later, the inquisition was introduced again and it continued un-interruptedly until 1812. At that point in time, in the year of 1812, the British put pressure on the Portuguese to put an end to the terror of Inquisition and the presence of British troops in Goa enforced the British desire. Also the Portuguese power at this time was declining and they could not fight the British. The palace of the Grand Inquisitor, the Big House, was demolished and no trace of it remains today, which might remind someone of inquisitions and the horrors inside this Big House that their great saint Francis Xavier had commenced.

Dr. Trasta Breganka Kunha, a Catholic citizen of Goa writes, "Inspite of all the mutilations and concealment of history, it remains an undoubted fact that religious conversion of Goans is due to methods of force adopted by the Portuguese to establish their rule. As a result of this violence the character of our people was destroyed. The propagation of Christian sect in Goa came about not by religious preaching but through the methods of violence and pressure. If any evidence is needed for this fact, we can obtain it through law books, orders and reports of the local rulers of that time and also from the most dependable documents of the Christian sect
JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Raju wrote:
The remedial actions could just be being vigilant. The idea is not about just apology, it is about acknowledgement of the wrongs and avoidance of repetition.
How is it going to be repeated ? Are we going to be invaded again ?

Are we seeking acknowledgement from insiders or outsiders ? Plz clarify this ?

And secondly how do we know many people do not acknowledge the wrongs and are silent about it ? Or is the intention to get people belonging to X,Y communities on a guilt trip ??
Please note that creating this awareness is not just for people belonging to X,Y communities. It is awareness to ALL the communities. If you think that people belonging to X,Y communities are going to take a guilt trip, can you please explain why do you think so?
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

Acharya wrote:
Sadler wrote: Good answer. After all these threads, it should be obvious that EVJ are PBUH and have an extremely well-organized agenda supported in many places by direct "donations" by the us govt to "faith-based orgs." Only a PBUH would claim ignorance of such facts.
Tracable fund source from foreign organization and also foreign govt agencies and dept.
Acharya, check previous threads.. i have posted off again from an email..if you need the complete email let me know.
Raju

Post by Raju »

I think in Indian context, wherever one could use the term "Abrahamic" one can as well use the term "Non-Dharmic". And just as "Judeo-christian" is often used, "Christo-Islamic" could be used too.
So we are willing to make subtle distinctions when we need it ? Good.

But there is no such need in case of some other communities. Extrapolating that one comes to the conclusion that the fight is a larger one and not just restricted to proselytizers alone.
If you think that people belonging to X,Y communities are going to take a guilt trip, can you please explain why do you think so?
Let's say you are part of X,Y community, bag & baggage, past mistrust, festering wounds, suspiscion et al...how would you respond ?

Suppose they too seek some kind of acknowledgement for some reason real/imagined, would you oblige ?
Greg
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 29
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:42

Post by Greg »

@Rony
Fredom of religion in US is good-but only according to the christian and western standards.for example while the US has freedom of religion for islam and judaism,the "people of book",does they have the same freedom of religion to Hindus and other "pagans and heathens" ?.When i say freedom of religion,i mean recognition of that religious beleif by uncle sam.In "secular" france, Hinduism is not even recognized as a religion.even today in US,the southern baptists offical convention starts with a resolution to convert "heathens and pagans" with Hindus of course on the top list.Just imagine, a Hindu organization in India starting its conferance with a resolution of converting christians and islam to Hinduism.Our p-sec media and elite coupled with vote bank politicians will rip them off to pieces on television within hours !.so yes there is freedom of religion in US but no where in the scale of India.
My understanding is that evangelical groups of all religions are allowed to preach (and try to convert) in the US, as is the case in almost every democracy that I can think of. Just because a country is ruled by followers of Christ, it does not follow that other religions will be wiped out or even marginalized. It appears that the Evangelists find more success with conversion of Hindus in India rather than in the US. In the US, the religion that has made significant inroads is Islam - not Christianity. In the 70s and 80s, Hare Krishna sect was also succesfull in its influence. The apple founder, Steve Jobs' fondest youthful memory is his weekly trip to Hare Krishna temple for a vegetarian meal (and gentile Hindu preachings I suppose). The constitution that protects individual and minority rights transcends the evangelical desires of it religious majority and tolerates the evangelical desires of its religios minorities. My last word on this. :)
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Post by SaiK »

The constitution that protects individual and minority rights transcends the evangelical desires of it religious majority and tolerates the evangelical desires of its religios minorities. My last word on this. Smile
there is nothing like evangelical desires of Hindus as minorities anywhere on the planet! wake up. i am sure its your last post on this.
Abhijit
BRFite
Posts: 530
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Bay Area - US

Post by Abhijit »

Sadler:
Now, the question is whether there is enough awareness in the IC (indian christian) to realize that joining forces with fellow Hindu Indians is also in the best interests of the IC??
This is the key question - I tried to ask Calvin this but I haven't received a response yet. Rakesh has been very explicit about his answer to this question - he has unconditionally condemned the EJ practices - even before the start of this series of threads.
IMO Islam has more or less lost the goodwill of the average Hindu because of the complete silence or active opposition of Islamic leaders in India against the excesses of their co-religionists - There are a hundred reasons and incidents that I can quote. I am still hopeful though that because of the stupid overreach of Islamic jihadists the problem may be solved or at least managed before it gets uglier than Gujarat.
I am not so sanguine about the ability or inclination of EJ's to learn their lessons. Firstly EJ's carry the swagger of America - the same swagger and stupid sense of superiority that made them invade Vietnam and Iraq. But I am sanguine about the Indian Christians. As luck would have it, I haven't met any Indian Christians who wore their EJ support on the sleeve and I am willing to believe that it is because they genuinely do not. The onslaught of EJ's can be stemmed only by the Indian Christians or else it will also get ugly.
Locked