Religion Thread - 8

S.Valkan
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Post by S.Valkan »

Kumar wrote: I think framers of the constitution thought that in a free hindu majority India hinduism would never really require any protection regarding education and temple funds etc. Therefore only protection that was specifically mentioned was for minorities.
Not really.

If you follow the debates in the Constituent Assembly, there is also a sense that - left alone - the Hindus of the day would have little incentive to change the rigid caste-based problems of the day, and that the 'socially liberal' Government of India must retain control, and speed up the integration efforts among "caste" Hindus and those that needed this assurance.

Even at this day and age, for example, some temple in Orissa refused to permit Harijans to enter the premises, even after a legal verdict, and instead opted to make everyone stay out.

Until Hindus at large mend their own ways first, this "elite" thinking of Constitutional Amendments is rather pointless.
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Post by mandrake »

What is the name of this website?

Bharat Rakshak.


Sadler asked
The question is: What are hindus going to do to ensure their own survival??
Start a BRF magazine with these articles pointing out the EJ conspiracy.


I agree with Saik's point, We have no problem with religions that co-exists.


However Calvin might or might not have made one thing clear, why isnt the Indian Christians vocal against this in the scale needed? :lol: and that is what matters most, to show how secular they are. :)



Isnt this this kind of hypocricy, whjen Africa buys Gripen, US objects but it herself sells it to poland?
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Post by Abhijit »

I am not sure when they would manage to get past the required 2/3 majority.
Things have to get far worse before the realization that Hindus are getting screwed dawns on the general populace. The current condition of prosperity will actually work for and against the revival. When more and more people find work and livelihood, they tend to enjoy the fruits of prosperity before thinking about the larger issues. So that works against such a realization. On the other hand, with prosperity comes a natural desire to obtain more understanding and appreciation of the culture - hence the ever-growing popularity of Hindu festivals. People will follow a commercialized (non-spiritual, non-advaitic) route to being proud and unflinching supporter of their Dharma. The more the prosperity spreads, the more it is difficult for EJ's to snare souls. But if the EJ's try to stop the prosperity they will have a more militant antagonism from Hindus.
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Post by Kumar »

Valkan,

Caste based issues were surely on constitution-framers' minds. But that is not the point.

A non-discriminatory thing would have been for the govt to keep the option of meddling with any religion for public good. Why pick "only" hinduism?

There was no need for "special protection" for minorities unless they perceived a threat to them by the hindu majority. Thats what I was talking about.

These protections only for minority religions are now causing the demands for the constitutional amendments.

No one here has been objecting to govt enforcing caste equality in the temples.
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Post by svinayak »

joey wrote:
However Calvin might or might not have made one thing clear, why isnt the Indian Christians vocal against this in the scale needed? :lol: and that is what matters most, to show how secular they are. :)
Now we have to go to the details. There is competition between Catholic, methodists, baptists and Pentecostal denominations and all of them are there inside India.

Indian Catholics to make sure that they are the dominant have ongoing battle with the baptist and other EJ inside India. Indian catholics also make sure that Jews do not stop and tell the truth about Christian history.
Methodists work with the Jews since they see Catholics as rivals.


You have to know the BATTLE OF THE MIND in the rest of world to understand the dynamics inside India among various groups.
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Post by S.Valkan »

Acharya wrote: Then Hindus have the right to expect the govt to prevent foreign EJs to thrive inside India.
There are laws to that effect.

Enforcement of the law is the problem.

And so is the use of loopholes to circumvent the law, often with the help of corrupt Hindu babudom.

Take for example "evangelical" tourist visas.

Since missionary visas are no longer issued, and existing ones not renewed, what are evanjihadis doing ?

They are exploiting the "India Tourism Year" efforts, and getting tourist visas.

Once they are in India, they undertake fraudulent conversion activities by joining up with similar "tourists" in a group and pooling their resources, often violating the "police registration" requirements.

And, often, this happens right in front of Hindu babudom, and they just don't bat an eyelid if they get some "chai-pani" to overlook the infractions.

Why are you blaming the "government" when the malaise is all the way to the bottom ?
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Post by Greg »

@Valkan
That lopsided effect is because of a third predator in the equation, - man.

Who's hunting the evangelical hunters to their extinction ? Scientists ?
Hunting of big cats by man entered the equation relatively recently. Moreover, Man hunts more deer than Tigers. :) The deer population has withstood the carnivore onslaught quite succesfully – with or without man and his rifle. Big cats simply don’t have the fertility rates that are comparable to deer. Of course, Islam disrupts the analogy from that standpoint. I am relying on world wide trends and not the Indian census, where Muslim rate of growth may be comparable to Hindu/Buddhist rate of growth.
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Post by Kumar »

Acharya wrote: Then Hindus have the right to expect the govt to prevent foreign EJs to thrive inside India.
...
You have not answered my question
There are two options. I think in the previous version of the thread I had mentioned them too.

(i) Demand internal reforms within Christianity and Islam, so that their proselytization practices can't be abused for organized socio-political subversion and propagation of hate.

(ii) Enact stronger legal/constitutional protections against such evangelization practices.


So, option (ii) corresponds to what you were saying.
Last edited by Kumar on 04 Apr 2007 02:30, edited 3 times in total.
S.Valkan
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Post by S.Valkan »

Kumar wrote:Why pick "only" hinduism?
I think we touched upon that in the last post.

Minority protection was a vow of the INC ever since Motilal Nehru tabled his formula for the "self-rule" of India.

That needs no special discussion.

The question on why Hindu religious trusts were targetted is the one that needs to be understood.

It is best understood in the consensus of the Constituent Assembly that Hindu religious trusts of the day were - if left to their own devices - NOT going to change the caste rigidity in their policies and procedures, and hence the 'liberal' Govt. needed to retain control and make things happen.

I'll point you to a simple example.

Are non-Brahmin children admitted to the Gurukulams run by the Kanchi or Shringeri Maths even today ?
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Post by SaiK »

I don't get it.. Govt has religious institutional controls for Hindus, and would have nothing for other Religions.. If corruption is what that needs control, then it might as well put other Religions in the dock.

I see a strategic failure, especially when we have a larger enemy in the neighborhood with a religious plank and a govt. that is run by terrorist institutions.

Its time, to move the Govt setup to a Hindu Accounting General setup, then view religious institution has an industrial setup. same is true for EJs and Muslims.. they need to file taxes., get rapped by CAG and what not.

This is all social EVIL.. nothing to do with Hinduism as Religion. Corruption is inherent with society that is so diverse and does not agree on a common civil code of living.. plus the added catalyst - socialism.

btw, Acharya: Max Mueller was a Catholic~.. It all started in his days. A well organized division, is never challenged.. hence under control by western thoughts.
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Post by S.Valkan »

Greg wrote:Big cats simply don’t have the fertility rates that are comparable to deer.
Aiyo Rama,- I did say that there is a threshold ratio, no ?

Since the tigers here are like the Borg, assimilating every hunted individual deer into their 'tiger' collective, their numbers are not dependent only on breeding.

Once the tiger numbers exceed the 'replacement' threshold of deer, the deer evaporate quite fast.

Precisely that has happened from Gandhara to Gurdaspur and from Murshidabad to Mizoram.

If you add a higher birth rate of tigers, the problem compounds further, no ?
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Post by svinayak »

SaiK wrote:
btw, Acharya: Max Mueller was a Catholic~.. It all started in his days. A well organized division, is never challenged.. hence under control by western thoughts.
India was an anomaly for the Europeans in 1700/1800s. All denominations came together to create a unified western narrative from 1850s(AIT) and negated Indian philosophy completely.

This is the most successful western project so far.
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Post by Kumar »

S.Valkan wrote: The question on why Hindu religious trusts were targetted is the one that needs to be understood.

It is best understood in the consensus of the Constituent Assembly that Hindu religious trusts of the day were - if left to their own devices - NOT going to change the caste rigidity in their policies and procedures, and hence the 'liberal' Govt. needed to retain control and make things happen.
I know & agree.

But what creates problems is the constitution's reformist zeal regarding hinduism, and clamming up regarding other religions.

If hinduism needed reforms, didn't Islam too? Aren't muslims Indian citizens? Then why did Constitution develops cold feet regarding establishing uniform personal law? Muslims can happily run their personal affairs by shariat while oppressing women's rights, women who are Indian citizens too. While the govt retains the option to discipline hindus.

Examples abound that in Indian constitution, Hinduism has been taken up with particular severity, as compared to other religions.

Some may call it tough love, but many are starting to call it discrimination.
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Post by S.Valkan »

Kumar wrote: If hinduism needed reforms, didn't Islam too? Aren't muslims Indian citizens? Then why did Constitution develops cold feet regarding establishing uniform personal law?
Surely the Muslims need reforms, but the DEMAND for such reforms must come from WITHIN Muslim society itself.

As it stood in 1947, the Muslims who opted to stay back in India were promised that their personal law would be untouched.

Forcing a UCC on them is to go against the grain of those solemn principles and promises of the Constituent Assembly.
Examples abound that in Indian constitution, Hinduism has been taken up with particular severity, as compared to other religions.

Some may call it tough love, but many are starting to call it discrimination.
People need to be familiar with the discourses of the time that went into creating the Constitution, and the laws of the land, so that they can be disabused of this notion of "discrimination".

The DEMAND for change in Hindu society came from WITHIN Hindu society, led by Dr. B.R. Ambedkar and others, and the Constituent Assembly unanimously acted on those suggestions.

Once the same happens from WITHIN Muslim society, surely there will be change there as well.
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Post by svinayak »

Kumar wrote:
But what creates problems is the constitution's reformist zeal regarding hinduism, and clamming up regarding other religions.

If hinduism needed reforms, didn't Islam too? Aren't muslims Indian citizens? Then why did Constitution develops cold feet regarding establishing uniform personal law? Muslims can happily run their personal affairs by shariat while oppressing women's rights, women who are Indian citizens too. While the govt retains the option to discipline hindus.

Examples abound that in Indian constitution, Hinduism has been taken up with particular severity, as compared to other religions.

Some may call it tough love, but many are starting to call it discrimination.
This is part of the Fabian socialism ,Frankfrut school , Critical Theory, Cultural Studies heritage inserted inside India to the dumb Indian elite from 1930s before independence.


This has effectively made Hindu reform as part of sociology change whose entire framework is a western colonial racist model.


Image
Last edited by svinayak on 04 Apr 2007 06:10, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Kumar »

S.Valkan wrote: I'll point you to a simple example.

Are non-Brahmin children admitted to the Gurukulams run by the Kanchi or Shringeri Maths even today ?
Do those gurukulam attending brahmin-children qualify for any quota benefits by the govt?

Govt discriminates against a large number of children "based on their birth".

When that discrimination by government ends, one will be on a much stronger footing to demand gurukulams opening to admit children from all castes too.
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Post by S.Valkan »

Kumar wrote: Do those gurukulam attending brahmin-children qualify for any quota benefits by the govt?

Govt discriminates against a large number of children "based on their birth".

When that discrimination by government ends, one will be on a much stronger footing to demand gurukulams opening to admit children from all castes too.
That's a classic case of putting the cart before the horse.

Which came first,- the Mandal Commission, or the Gurukulam-for-Brahmins-only ?

Where was the outrage from the "elite" BEFORE this reservation fiasco of the last 30 years ?

Kindly see things in the proper perspective.
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Post by Kumar »

Valkan,

Enough water has flown down the Ganga to make this issue of horse & cart irrelevant. Why can't affirmative action be means & opportunity based? Why does it have to be "birth" based?

Just to get the proper scale of things, how many children attend those gurukulams? What kind of living they eke out after that education? IIRC Kaushal had mentioned that he visited one of those gurukulams and saw that they lived lives of extreme poverty.

HH had argued that many brahmin families consider their traditional knowledgebase as propreitary and not public. This is the knowledge that has been their livelihood for generations and developed and preserved by their forefathers. They arduously preserved it by copying voluminous tomes generation after generation writing on palm leaves. It qualifies as their ancestral property and isn't automatically a public property, unless they choose to make it so. They can selectively choose to pass it on to whoever they wish.

Can one approach a smith and demand that the smith must teach him his tricks of the trade? Is the smith being discriminatory if he chooses to teach only his children or children of other smiths?

Unless all such private tutoring/mentoring is made compulsorily accessible to all citizens, it is just a bogey to demand the same from those gurukulams.
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Post by Kumar »

Does anyone know the recruitment policy for those gurukulams?

I have heard many times that they only accpet brahmin children as students.

What I would like to know whether there are further restrictions on which families or which geographical regions those children could come from?

If I ran a gurukulam, I would have it caste neutral. But I find passing judgements on those gurukulams difficult, given the current affirmative action policy, and the suspicion that they have a lot of propreitary materials.

A simple example is teaching of Samavedic singing according to a particular shakha. I truly wish that this were in public domain. Some of it has been published, but a lot of it hasn't been. And if Samavedi families want to treat their methods as propreitary material, then I can't argue against that.
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Post by svinayak »

Kumar wrote: And if Samavedi families want to treat their methods as propreitary material, then I can't argue against that.
No they dont. I come that sampradhaya
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Post by Kumar »

Acharya wrote:
Kumar wrote: And if Samavedi families want to treat their methods as propreitary material, then I can't argue against that.
No they dont. I come that sampradhaya
So they would teach anyone, or just immediate family?

Which shakha? Kauthuma?
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Post by Manny »

Kumar wrote:Valkan,

Enough water has flown down the Ganga to make this issue of horse & cart irrelevant. Why can't affirmative action be means & opportunity based? Why does it have to be "birth" based?

Just to get the proper scale of things, how many children attend those gurukulams? What kind of living they eke out after that education? IIRC Kaushal had mentioned that he visited one of those gurukulams and saw that they lived lives of extreme poverty.

HH had argued that many brahmin families consider their traditional knowledgebase as propreitary and not public. This is the knowledge that has been their livelihood for generations and developed and preserved by their forefathers. They arduously preserved it by copying voluminous tomes generation after generation writing on palm leaves. It qualifies as their ancestral property and isn't automatically a public property, unless they choose to make it so. They can selectively choose to pass it on to whoever they wish.

Can one approach a smith and demand that the smith must teach him his tricks of the trade? Is the smith being discriminatory if he chooses to teach only his children or children of other smiths?

Unless all such private tutoring/mentoring is made compulsorily accessible to all citizens, it is just a bogey to demand the same from those gurukulams.
Every knowledge base has a shelf life. Copy right protection is not into perpetuity.

Except ofcourse if you were Disney.

:D
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Post by svinayak »

Kumar wrote:
So they would teach anyone, or just immediate family?

Which shakha? Kauthuma?
It is passed on to different families. In One example it was not passed to the son but a young person from a different family. Aptitude is more important and not the background.
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Post by shyam »

Where can I find old religion threads? I can't find them in trash can?

Thanks in advance.
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Post by ramana »

Because they are archived and not trashed! 8)

There is an archive for the Religion thread.
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Post by shyam »

Oops! thanks.

I think earlier EJ threads and Xenophobia thread also must be in that archive.
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Post by Greg »

This Muslim mullah claims that Hindu scriptures prophecize the emergence of Mohammed and Islam. Sounds like one of those crackpot theory but, I am more interested in knowing if this preacher is an Indian. Dont take the link too seriously (and more importantly, dont shoot the messenger). :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJHbEWs-m_s
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Post by svinayak »

Greg wrote:This Muslim mullah claims that Hindu scriptures prophecize the emergence of Mohammed and Islam. Sounds like one of those crackpot theory but, I am more interested in knowing if this preacher is an Indian. Dont take the link too seriously (and more importantly, dont shoot the messenger). :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJHbEWs-m_s
He was caught redhanded trying to recruit potential Indian jihadi on the internet.
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Post by Greg »

Guys, I just typed in HINDU on youtube search engine and have been going through some clips. Dont worry, I am not going to post all of them but this one is extremely frustrating (and informative). Its short and reflective of much of the discussion on this thread.

Its about some jackass interviewing a Catholic priest in Vatican (formerly Hindu). The priest is actually quite "Godly" and tries to explain his spiritual philosophy that is congruent with a life well-lived (he considers himself Hindu as well as Catholic - much to the interviewer's chigrin). Some combative exchanges on the priest's definition of heaven and who can go there.

If Hindu converts (to Christianity) are half as bright as this priest, it will be the converters that will feel threatened in the long run. Fascinating.

Part 1 and 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9du7x03JRq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvWfr2VQ ... ed&search=

fair warning: The interviewer is a Jackass of the nth order and is likely to drive orthodox Hindus up the wall. I feel absolutely sorry for the poor priest for having to deal with such a lowlife.
Last edited by Greg on 04 Apr 2007 06:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by vsudhir »

The US differs from almost every other industralized country markedly in its religiosity.

The strength of xtianity in the US has one great positive spinoff - it gives the US the ideological and purpose-driven 'antibodies' required to successfully combat izlamism.

That immunity Europe has lost. And a great lesson this is for nonagressive systems of thought (post modernist atheism and SD perhaps?) in how an aggressive, uncompromising and purposeful ideology can completely overrun them.

And the results of this loss in immunity show up in all manner of different EU statistics - starting with demographic catastrophe - with one constant underlying theme.

The European continent that had successfully fought off the izlamic hordes in the past is dying and may now fall without a shot being fired, possibly.

That scenario though, is unlikely to come to pass in America.

Hey, just thinking aloud. Strains of Steyn's influence ('America alone') are unintentional. Feel free to feel offended.

Std disclaimers hold. Etc.
Have a nice day, all.
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Post by svinayak »

Greg
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Post by Greg »

@vsudhir
The strength of xtianity in the US has one great positive spinoff - it gives the US the ideological and purpose-driven 'antibodies' required to successfully combat izlamism.
The spinoff does not adequately offset the obstacle it poses to science education in this country. It would be great if they can be kicked out of the classrooms in the bible belt. Nearly 50% of American public believes in creationism (of some sort) - or at least reject the most salient outlines of evolution. At this rate, we are looking at a severe dichotomy emerging. A small population that populates the science and tech frontier and a large majority that is having trouble with Galileo and Darwin. :(
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Post by Karan Dixit »

Karan:
1. Are there any other "minor courtesies" that may arise?
2.Polygamy is an interesting situation. Quite frankly, it seems to me that if two consenting adults (or four or ten) want to do this, they should be allowed to. (although, quite frankly, I find one more than enough) Similarly, for gay marriage. One may make the case, that as society becomes less tied to its Judeo-christian religious roots, at least in the US, the marriage institution will change with the times.
1) Well, there could be few more issues. But this one is the main one. Hindus living in Christian or Islamic countries expect to live under cultural ethos of those countries. It is very easy to understand that if you are in the business of brutal killing of animals, you will have hard time in India. If the firework on Diwali annoys you, India is the wrong country for you. (Note: my usage of “youâ€
Last edited by Karan Dixit on 04 Apr 2007 07:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shiv »

Raju wrote: Shall the society remain perpetually divided on this basis...if not, what is the timeframe ? Especially considering the Generation-X of any community isn't exactly aware of these historical issues ? Are we seeking an apology from them as well ? Or is the idea to remind them...so that they can apologize ?
I have noted the exchange of views between you and jwalamukhi. You bring up a very uncomfortable subject that I have addressed in my own mind. Sorry -but this is going to be a long post..

I believe both of you are right but in a nearly mutually exclusive way.

If your view holds, the historical facts will remain buried until they become innocuous - like the killing of Aztecs. (As compared to say records of Hitlers camps, or the inquisition).

If his view holds - is it going to be an indicator of a permanent irreconcilable cleft?

I have thought about ways in which these contradicting views can be reconciled with each other and there is no easy method. You cannot target (for criticism) a historic group without being insulting to their present day descendants. But does this mean for example, that Nazis could be criticized without upsetting all Germans?

Ulitimately there has to be a trade-off. Germans might have been upset, but the idea of raking up still fresh issues was not to punish all Germans. Until that became clear to Germans as a whole it is quite likely that many would have felt anxiety that they would be made to pay for things that they had personally not been part of. But as time showed, they were being asked for reconciliation, and not to take the blame or pay damages for what they had not done. Surely that is feasible in India?

There is also the flip side of the coin that is almost never brought out into the open.

When the mullah criticizes (in private) Hindu practices or passes a fatwa against a Hindu related act, is he restricting himself to a minor geographical area and acting for a small group of local people who have brought a problem to him, or can his judgement cover all Hindus?

Should a Hindu who has nothing to do with the original problem, upon hearing the judgement, assume that a judgement calling upon Muslims (for example) to not eat festival sweets offered by a Hindu is directed at some small local group, or should he feel that it is directed at all Hindus and at him? How is he to know?

On the other hand, does the mullah take the sensitivities of all Hindu into account when he passes the fatwa? Surely he should be expressing the very same sentiment that you have expressed about hurt feelings in the Hindu community and a permanent cleft.

Similarly, imagine an evangelist who suggests to a person that he will get this world and next world benefits from changing his faith because his existing faith is wrong, and the word of (his) God says so.

Is this exchange a private exchange between the evangelist and Hindu? If another Hindu hears this, should he consider the exchange as a private exchange that is not meant to be critical of Hindus at large, or should he feel offended that Hindu belief is being critcized? Should the evangelist NOT express the same sentiment that you have done and worry about the sensitivities of the larger Hindu community.

I believe that neither the Mullah nor the Evangelist are concerned about the sensitivities of the larger Hindu community.

In relation to the discussion between yourself and jwalamukhi, we can have a situation in which:

a) Records and discussion of historic excesses by Muslims and Christians are swept under the carpet by wellmeaning Hindus who do not want to perpetuate a cleft

b) A similar sentiment of NOT creating clefts is NOT followed by the mullahs and evangelists of today.

This in my view is wrong and unfair to Hindus.

The situation we find in India is that it is Hindus who do not want to talk about the violent history that involves evangelists and mullahs for fear of hurting the feelings of peopel of minority communities. The present day counterparts of those violent evangelists and violent mullahs are still active and do not acknowledge excesses of the past and still have no sensitivity to the feelings of Hindus today.

To the Hindu, the saddest part, and the part that causes most guilt is hurting the feelings of perfectly Indian Christians and Muslims today by raking up these issues.

But the only people who are helped by not raking up these issues are the unrepentant mullahs and evangelists.

The sad truth is that these issues have to be raked up at the risk of causing hurt to Christians and Muslims. Unfortunately, neither mullahs, nor Evangelists are in the slightest bit concerned about causing hurt to Hindus. The only way forward is to NOT hide hurt feelings and express them aloud and start taking the actions needed to set that right.
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Post by Karan Dixit »

Sajan wrote:
This is the logic western countries use when they deny the rights of minority. I do not see why same logic cannot be used in India for the sake of communal harmony
If I remember right, HAF (Hindu American Foundation) had successfully challenged display of 10 commandments in public places and won the case. So what types of rights are being denied there, I am just curious ?

Compare that with the call for banning cow-slaughter because it offends majority. Display of 10 commandments would have been perfectly fine with majority, but it was removed (along with nativity scenes) because it offended the minority in a secular country
Do you have a link? I would be delighted to learn that Hindus have that kind of influence in USA. :)

From what I understand Hindus are having hard time convincing the court in California to prevent printing of false information about Hindu faith in the state's textbooks.

Can you imagine one of the Indian states printing textbooks which would contain what muslims or christians would consider lies about their religions?
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Post by vina »

Karan Dixit wrote:Do you have a link? I would be delighted to learn that Hindus have that kind of influence in USA. :)

From what I understand Hindus are having hard time convincing the court in California to prevent printing of false information about Hindu faith in the state's textbooks.

Can you imagine one of the Indian states printing textbooks which would contain what muslims or christians would consider lies about their religions?
The 10 commandments was a violation of 1st Amendment.. So it was struck down.

For the California text books, the slanted material against hinduism existed for a long time.. thanks to the influence of the "historians" of the JNU/ Eminent Sarkar/ sweeping uncomfortable things under the carpet /spinning sanitized or alternate history types and their counterparts in western campuses. Why blame the state of California for that.

It became an issue only when enough hindus migrated to California, saw what their children were exposed to in school regarding the religion and organized.

This has relevance to the Raju & Jwala Mukhi exchanges.. What happened in Hinduism (epsecialy the academic / religious studies circles) was that in India, it was simply verboten and Hindus did not get into that area and so by default in the West and in India it was under control of the some crazy
nuts and by agenda driven marxist idealogues in India. So when you give up control over your destiny to others, obviously you lose control over how your religion and culture gets projected..
shiv
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Post by shiv »

There is a very common sociological trick that occurs widely among humans.

It does not mean that someone studies sociology and then applies the trick. It only means that the behavior of groups of humans encourage practitioners of this trick, at least some (but not all) of whom discover it by accident.

Imagine a teacher who strips and fondles young girls. Such teachers exist. They exist because the teacher realises that he is respected in society. He has a sexual urge and crosses the limit one day. he does the usual human guilt thing. He threatens or bribes the girl and pretends that nothing has happened. He finds, over time that nothing happens and is encouraged to do it again and again.

At some stage a complaint does come out against him. But that gets suppressed because. overall he is considered a good teacher in the community and anyone who criticizes him has a malicious grudge against him.

Even better if the teacher belongs to some kind of minority. A sex crazed Indian male teacher in England might be able to make a racism allegation to protect himself. A teacher from a religious minority might be able to allege religious discrimination.

The "model" of social manipulation that allows the teacher to get away is:

1) Have a respectable public persona and public support

2) Restrict your objectionable activity to the private domain

3) Deny, stonewall and accuse people of discrimination, racism and bias.

I believe that evangelists and mullahs in India follow exactly this model.

They have respectable public persona that is given to them by virtue of their education, their faith and Indian laws.

They criticize Hinduism and Hindu practices in private.

They deny, stonewall and allege religious or racial discrimination.

The reason why anyone might want to keep quiet about this and not holler this out loud from every rooftop can be described in the Kannada word sankocha[/a]. I can think of no exact Hindi or English alternative. It is akin to shame/embarrassment or "sharam"

It is a feeling of self doubt because you, a small person has to take on a public persona in public and that you might be shamed for doing that.

That feeling is misplaced in the case of evangelists and mullahs who live in India and speak out openly against Hindus and are able to control actions groups of people, or serve as heir guides or advisors.

The private actions of a public persona cannot be totally private when those actions affect the larger community in some way. Religion stops being a "private affair" when a public persona uses his influence to create a bias or cleft in the comunity.

The actions of evangelists and mullahs in questioning and criticizing Hindus is wrong and reprehensible and should not be hidden, or wished away as "private" or kept under wraps for fear of hurting the sensibilities innocent members of minority groups.
vsudhir
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Post by vsudhir »

@greg
The spinoff does not adequately offset the obstacle it poses to science education in this country. It would be great if they can be kicked out of the classrooms in the bible belt. Nearly 50% of American public believes in creationism (of some sort) - or at least reject the most salient outlines of evolution. At this rate, we are looking at a severe dichotomy emerging. A small population that populates the science and tech frontier and a large majority that is having trouble with Galileo and Darwin.
Partly OT here but here's what I think.

1. The US public school system in general is failing expectations across the board. This has nothing to do with the creationist nonsense. Folk who can afford private, jesuit and catholic schools apparently gladly do so.

2. The value of the Judeo-xtian culture bolstered by the religiosity of the avg american John Doe cannot be overstated. Wait and watch as chaos unfolds over Europe over the next decade or so to understand why. Europe has no cultural will left to fightback the izlamist tide sweeping ashore. If the Paris riots of '05 were bad, watch for continental scale upheaval sooner rather than later now.

3. The US system actually works well. Church and state are reasonably separate....

Oops SHQ is getting really miffed now. gtg. More later.
Karan Dixit
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Post by Karan Dixit »

Calvin wrote: Shiv brings up this Tuesday as a public holiday. I have no objection to making Tuesday a public holiday at all. Why is this? This is because it doesn't affect a person's ability to sustain his life, protect his property, or his liberty.
One does not need beef to sustain one's life. You can sustain your life with high protein beans and high carbohydrate breads. This is not about sustaining one's life. It is about one man proclaiming that he has right to piss on another man.
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