Religion Thread - 10

pradeepe
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Postby pradeepe » 07 Apr 2007 23:32

aditya wrote:
she needs to be in the dock and charged.




huh!

Why so? Is someone going to slip on the flag and break their bones? Is someone's freedom going to be violated by the flag lying at her feet?


I call it is I see it. My religious sentiment takes a back seat in such matters. You want to wallow in such hypocracy, its your choice.

Not just breaking a leg and a bone. Thousands of lives have been given for the same thing that the flag represents.

As for the rest, spare me please. Atleast until I voice an opinion.

Raju

Postby Raju » 08 Apr 2007 00:10

**THE PREVENTION OF INSULTS TO NATIONAL HONOUR ACT, 1971

(Amended by the Prevention of Insults to National Honour (Amendment) Act, 2003)

Whoever in any public place or in any other place within public view burns, mutilates, defaces, defiles, disfigures, destroys, tramples upon or otherwise shows disrespect to or brings into contempt (whether by words, either spoken or written, or by acts) the Indian National Flag………. or any part thereof, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.

Explanation 1. – Comments expressing disapprobation or criticism of the ………Indian National Flag or an alteration of the Indian National Flag by lawful means do not constitute an offence under this section.

Explanation 2. – The expression, "Indian National Flag" includes any picture, painting, drawing or photograph, or other visible representation of the Indian National Flag, or of any part or parts thereof, made of any substance or represented on any substance.

Explanation 3. – The expression "Public place" means any place intended for use by, or accessible to, the public and includes any public conveyance.

Explanation 4. – The disrespect to the Indian National Flag means and includes-

(a) a gross affront or indignity offered to the Indian National Flag; or

(b) dipping the Indian National Flag in salute to any person or thing; or

(c) flying the Indian National Flag at half-mast except on occasions on which the Flag is flown at half-mast on public buildings in accordance with the instructions issued by the Government; or

(d) using the Indian National Flag as a drapery in any form whatsoever except in state funerals or armed forces or other para-military forces funerals; or

(e) using the Indian National Flag as a portion of costume or uniform of any description or embroidering or printing it on cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins or any dress material; or

(f) putting any kind of inscription upon the Indian National Flag; or

(g) using the Indian National Flag as a receptacle for receiving, delivering or carrying anything except flower petals before the Indian National Flag is unfurled as part of celebrations on special occasions including the Republic Day or the Independences Day; or

(h) using the Indian National Flag as covering for a statue or a monument or a speaker's desk or a speaker's platform; or

(i) allowing the Indian National Flag to touch the ground or the floor or trail in water intentionally; or

(j) draping the Indian National Flag over the hood, top, and sides or back or on a vehicle, train, boat or an aircraft or any other similar object; or

(k) using the Indian National Flag as a covering for a building; or

(l) intentionally displaying the Indian National Flag with the "saffron" down.

3A. MINIMUM PENALTY ON SECOND OR SUBSEQUENT OFFENCE

Whoever having already been convicted of an offence under section 2………. is again convicted of any such offence shall be punishable for the second and for every subsequent offence, with imprisonment for a term, which shall not be less than one year.

2.2 A member of public, a private organization or an educational institution may hoist/display the National Flag on all days and occasions, ceremonial or otherwise. Consistent with the dignity and honour of the National Flag -

(i) whenever the National Flag is displayed, it should occupy the position of honour and should be distinctly placed;

(ii) a damaged or dishevelled Flag should not be displayed;

(iii) the Flag should not be flown from a single masthead simultaneously with any other flag or flags;

(iv) the Flag should not be flown on any vehicle except in accordance with the provisions contained in Section IX of Part III of this Code;

(v) when the Flag is displayed on a speaker’s platform, it should be flown on the speaker’s right as he faces the audience or flat against the wall, above and behind the speaker;

(vi) when the Flag is displayed flat and horizontal on a wall, the saffron band should be upper most and when displayed vertically, the saffron band shall be on the right with reference to the Flag (i.e. left to the person facing the Flag);

(vii) to the extent possible, the Flag should conform to the specifications prescribed in Part I of this Code.

(viii) no other flag or bunting should be placed higher than or above or side by side with the National Flag; nor should any object including flowers or garlands or emblem be placed on or above the Flag-mast from which the Flag is flown;

(ix) the Flag should not be used as a festoon, rosette or bunting or in any other manner for decoration;

(x) the Flag made of paper may be waved by public on occasions of important national, cultural and sports events. However, such paper Flags should not be discarded or thrown on the ground after the event. As far as possible, it should be disposed of in private consistent with the dignity of the Flag;

(xi) where the Flag is displayed in open, it should, as far as possible, be flown from sunrise to sunset, irrespective of weather conditions;

(xii) the Flag should not be displayed or fastened in any manner as may damage it; and

(xiii) when the Flag is in a damaged or soiled condition, it shall be destroyed as a whole in private, preferably by burning or by any other method consistent with the dignity of the Flag.

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Postby aditya » 08 Apr 2007 00:13

Thousands of lives have been given for the same thing that the flag represents.


But this is a subjective sentiment (which I happen to share), nationalistic as it happens and not religious. It is quite similar to religious Abrahamic sentiments. Some object to any representation of their Prophet, others object to how a flag is displayed.

So even among Hindus, the equivalent of an "abrahamic religiousity" exists in non-religious matters.

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Postby Alok_N » 08 Apr 2007 00:18

aditya wrote:So even among Hindus, the equivalent of an "abrahamic religiousity" exists in non-religious matters.


it is the law, boss ... what is all this "abrahamic religiosity" stuff? ...

I sense a deep-seated desire to find "equal-equal" no matter what ...

what is the attitude towards this law in "Jingopura"?
Last edited by Alok_N on 08 Apr 2007 00:20, edited 1 time in total.

Raju

Postby Raju » 08 Apr 2007 00:20

yeh Ibrahim beech mein kahaan aa gaya ??/when & where did Ibrahim enter the picture ??

Is he a lurker on this thread too ?

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Postby Alok_N » 08 Apr 2007 00:21

Raju wrote:yeh Ibrahim beech mein kahaan aa gaya


omnipresent ... :lol:

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Postby aditya » 08 Apr 2007 00:38

Alok_Nji: sure, it's the law. But in a democracy, is it beyond discussion? As far as the national flag is concerned, I agree there is the obvious issue of decorum, but in that case why don't we have such elaborate laws for spitting paan in the street?

In the former case, the disrespect is towards a national symbol. In the latter case, the disrespect is towards the country and its citizens - the very thing that the national flag represents.

As for the "abrahamic religiosity": you cite the law as an axiom, others will cite the book. I see equal-equal.

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Postby Alok_N » 08 Apr 2007 00:43

very well ...

Indian Penal Code == Bible or Quran ...

wah! ... no more from me ...

Raju

Postby Raju » 08 Apr 2007 00:44

oh btw where is this 'jingopura' ??

Is it near the hip & happening town of 'Landi Kotal' by any chance ?

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Postby RajGuru » 08 Apr 2007 00:46

aditya wrote: Is someone's freedom going to be violated by the flag lying at her feet?

Note the dichotomy here: Hindus who won't hesitate to call a respected Hindu "this woman" at the drop of a hat want her banged up in Tihar for something that can objectively be described as little more than a lack of decorum.


Unlike some folks who put God in front of Country before they take on any issue We Indians put Country before anything else. Anyone who disrespects our National Honour must be punished. Obviously you have no fcuking clue about the honour of our National Flag. Your argument is like those typical JNU leftist dudes. I wont respond to people like you on a public forum as I dont want to get banned for posting abusive language. Hope you got the message.

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Postby svinayak » 08 Apr 2007 00:48

samuel wrote:

What's real is that we are at a new juncture in an almost 500 year history. The Brits are gone and our nation is on the march. The Anglo-Saxon narrative will not do anymore, if for nothing else than that neither the anglos nor the saxons count.


India counts in the world in 60 short years. Amazing for a country that was not self-governing for almost 500 years, for a hindu way of life that remained suppressed for all that time. We are just learning to govern ourselves. We need a Hindu narrative that helps us learn what worked and did not in governing ourselves, simply because clinging to imported narratives is embarrasing to our image.

Hitching a Hindu narrative to our economic rise would be easy, binding our people to it not difficult, and such an approach will also present a view to the world that is likely to be accepted.


More importantly we need an expansion of Hindu civilization first to its original geography and then beyond where no Hindu has set foot before.
Hindu narrative starts with awareness of who we are in the world compared to other races and civilization. It start with knowledge of the Hindu history and Hindu mimes buried among all the modern day Indians.
Last edited by svinayak on 08 Apr 2007 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Alok_N » 08 Apr 2007 00:50

Acharya wrote:More importantly we need a expansion of Hindu civilization first to its original geography and then beyond where no Hindu has set foot before.

Acharya boss turning into EvanHindu? :shock:

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Postby PIyengar » 08 Apr 2007 01:00

Alok_N wrote:
Acharya wrote:More importantly we need a expansion of Hindu civilization first to its original geography and then beyond where no Hindu has set foot before.

Acharya boss turning into EvanHindu? :shock:


"Ranjha Ranjha kardi ni main ape Ranjha hoi"

Saying a rosary of your name...I have become you... :shock:

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Postby Alok_N » 08 Apr 2007 01:06

aah, Maulavi C/D Mian has spoken ...

aagae aagae hum chalae, yaaron ki baraaton mein ... :)

10 threads worth of work will go down the tube if Hindu Evangelical and/or Imperial ambitions are now put on the table ...

what's up with that?

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Postby SRoy » 08 Apr 2007 01:09

PIyengar wrote:
Alok_N wrote:
Acharya wrote:More importantly we need a expansion of Hindu civilization first to its original geography and then beyond where no Hindu has set foot before.

Acharya boss turning into EvanHindu? :shock:


"Ranjha Ranjha kardi ni main ape Ranjha hoi"

Saying a rosary of your name...I have become you... :shock:

Mian Pee_In_Anger, apni batao, aap to nau so ninyanwe chuhey khaker haj ho aaye, aur humey bata raho ho :D

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Postby PIyengar » 08 Apr 2007 01:09

Alok_N wrote:what's up with that?


Yeah... I can just imagine an Hindu Tableeghi Jamaat... :)

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Postby rocky » 08 Apr 2007 01:11

Acharya wrote:
samuel wrote:

What's real is that we are at a new juncture in an almost 500 year history. The Brits are gone and our nation is on the march. The Anglo-Saxon narrative will not do anymore, if for nothing else than that neither the anglos nor the saxons count.


India counts in the world in 60 short years. Amazing for a country that was not self-governing for almost 500 years, for a hindu way of life that remained suppressed for all that time. We are just learning to govern ourselves. We need a Hindu narrative that helps us learn what worked and did not in governing ourselves, simply because clinging to imported narratives is embarrasing to our image.

Hitching a Hindu narrative to our economic rise would be easy, binding our people to it not difficult, and such an approach will also present a view to the world that is likely to be accepted.


More importantly we need an expansion of Hindu civilization first to its original geography and then beyond where no Hindu has set foot before.
Hindu narrative starts with awareness of who we are in the world compared to other races and civilization. It start with knowledge of the Hindu history and Hindu mimes buried among all the modern day Indians.
This will not happen until the average per capita income gets to respectable levels, and people are not bound by the shackles of earning roti for the day.

Once we can manage to feed everybody in the country, give them constant supply of water to drink daily, and electricity, the people will themselves find out the truth.

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Postby Sajan » 08 Apr 2007 01:53

For all the rhetoric from Anand where he was fighting the wind-mills, he ignored the main points raised in my previous post.

I didn't quote the kerala govt. website alone, I quoted an article from an extreme right-winger like Rajeev Srinivasan who had admitted that under the rule of Travancore kings, lower-castes were treated much worse than lower-castes in british India - direct contradiction to what Anand stated here.

Let me bring up another example - a very well known example of K.R Narayanan, former President. When Narayanan stood first in his BA examinations, he was offered the position of a clerk instead of the lecturer by the travancore govt at that time. This happened in early 40s, after the temple entry proclamation

http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstor ... d=13980815
Many a time, he could not pay fees on time until he obtained merit scholarship from the intermediate level and passed the BA (Literature) Honours examination from the Maharaja’s College, Thiruvananthapuram. He won the first rank in the University of Travancore.

university denied him a chance to work as a lecturer, which he well merited desperately wanted, simply because he hailed from a backward community.

tead, the authorities offered him the job of a clerk,ch he did not accept. In protest, he refused to accept his degree.



you claim Tam Brahms dominated Travancore bureaucracy.... well tell us what was the % of Tam Brahms was in the Diwan Peshkar post

I understand that you are very desparate. You might want to ask this question to the 10,000 people who signed "Malayalee Memorial". Or are you going to deny the fact that such an agitation took place in kerala ?

Most of the Diwans of kerala were tamil brahmins since the Veluthampi. For the most part, Diwans weilded all the power and some like CP Ramaswamy Iyer wanted Travancore to remain an independent country outside the indian union with his "american model" (except for the fact that the much hated commies made an attempt on Diwan Ramaswamy Iyer's life which caused the diwan to flee by night with half of his nose chopped off)

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Contents of BJP CD

Postby G Subramaniam » 08 Apr 2007 01:58

http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2007/04/that-communal-bjp-cd-transcript.html

Here are extracts from the verbatim transcript, translated by me from the Hindi original, of the VCD titled ‘Bharat ki Pukar’ released in early April 2007 by the Bharatiya Janata Party as part of its campaign material for the Uttar Pradesh elections. It is on the basis of the contents of this VCD -- which the BJP has now withdrawn -- that the Election Commission has filed an FIR against the party’s president, Rajnath Singh

I have seen the 52 minute CD in its entirety and it is pretty ‘sick-making’.

The VCD consists of a series of fictionalised scenes revolving around several dramatis personae including Masterji, a BJP campaigner, and an unnamed social worker. Apart from a few news clips, songs and extracts from real speeches by senior BJP leaders like L.K. Advani and Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the VCD is essentially a multi-scene, viciously communal soap with a simple plot line: Muslims are out to break-up India, turn it into a Pakistan and drive the Hindus out. The message to Hindus, explicitly stated by the principal protagonist, the BJP campaigner ‘Masterji’, is for Hindus to vote in the party and or end up wearing burqas and sporting beards.

Among the more vicious statements:


“Hindus will produce two children and Muslims will marry five times and produce 35 dogs each and make this country into an Islamic stateâ€

Raju

Postby Raju » 08 Apr 2007 01:59

Sajan, what grievous harm has Kerala done to you that it deserves so much praise in each of your posts ?? :lol:

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Postby Abhijit » 08 Apr 2007 02:21

yep. sajan has not answered my question. why does he hate hindus especially upper caste hindus so much?

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Postby aditya » 08 Apr 2007 02:42

RajGuru wrote:Unlike some folks who put God in front of Country before they take on any issue We Indians put Country before anything else.


And Marxists put their ideology before everything. Conceptually, it is the same framework!

But I know this isn't what you mean. What you probably want to say is that the country represents certain values that you put in front. This is not the issue in either case.

Anyone who disrespects our National Honour must be punished. Obviously you have no fcuking clue about the honour of our National Flag. Your argument is like those typical JNU leftist dudes. I wont respond to people like you on a public forum as I dont want to get banned for posting abusive language. Hope you got the message.


I'd ask you to ask yourself why you have the urge to be abusive towards someone who is on the same side as you - simply because he questions something that is considered an unquestionable given?

As far as the importance of the flag is concerned, what do you hope to achieve by going after someone who disrespects it? Whom does it affect? My point is that if someone shows disrespect towards the flag, it is his problem as long as he does not create a public nuisance. (It is also my prerogative to object in a democratic manner. So for example, I won't allow him to put a disrespectful poster on my wall.)

This is different to say, the Jholawala advocates who want the army pulled out of Siachen which is "just a barren piece of land" according to them. Well, here lies the difference. Siachen is a serious strategic issue and not about symbolism or personal sentiments.

Sorry, in some of the unnecessarily hostile reactions, I see a mental process that is similar to the folks who protest and get a publisher to be arrested because he printed a booklet containing pictures of revered figures in all religions, including those which consider such representations blasphemous.

Alok_N wrote:very well ...

Indian Penal Code == Bible or Quran ...

wah! ... no more from me ...


It is that way only if you choose to cite it as an unquestionable authority. Of course IPC itself is an entity that allows itself to be questioned - since it can be changed, amended and debated.

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 02:46

The purpose of the statement was to define the Hindu as a thoughful and analytical, giving, sensitive and tolerant person that he is. All qualities that cause jealousy and heartburn among others who seek to bring down what they cannot be.


Is this a necessary, or sufficient condition?

If it is a necessary condition, is any emotional, selfish, insensitive, intolerant person that lives in India not a Hindu by definition?

If it is a sufficient condition, is any thoughful and analytical, giving, sensitive and tolerant person living anywhere on the world a hindu by definition?

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Postby Sajan » 08 Apr 2007 02:50

Abhijit wrote:yep. sajan has not answered my question. why does he hate hindus especially upper caste hindus so much?


This reminds me of the antics used by folks like sadler in this forum - if you criticize israel, it becomes anti-semitism.

Similarly, if you question the popular hagiography in this forum, it becomes hatred for hindus!!

Anyway, for the benefit of Anand, I am quoting Rajeev Srinivasan again

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/aug/30rajeev.htm
Any 'lower caste' person only had to convert to Christianity and Islam, and immediately they escaped the worst of the discrimination. . In fact, had it not been for the Guru, the Ezhavas would have converted en masse to Christianity,
...
A mass movement forced the Maharaja of Travancore to make an epoch-making 'Temple Entry Proclamation' on November 12, 1936, throwing open all temples to all Hindus


But as you can see from the previous url in my post, discrimination continued even after this proclamation, as illustrated by the case of KR Narayanan.

Now this is precisely why I stated that there is a need for free-market competition in case of religion. Religion is just another product sort of like Coke vs Pepsi. Or Jesse Ventura put it, "a crutch for those who need strength in numbers".

As most of the discussion here proves very well, whether evangelicals or those fearing evangelicals, it is all about "strength in numbers". :D

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 02:51

Regarding the flag - the US has had its fair share of free speech/flag burning arguments - and one is reminded of the Prophet Cartoons from last year as well - how robust of an idea are we defending, if it can be defiled by being physically trodden on?

This flag thing is a sideshow and is not a commentary on anything other than the judgement of the persons involved.

As for the VCD withdrawal, is this another proof of the intolerance towards Hindus?

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 03:01

I'd ask you to ask yourself why you have the urge to be abusive towards someone who is on the same side as you - simply because he questions something that is considered an unquestionable given?


This is a thought shared by many on this forum when they read religious threads.

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Postby Sajan » 08 Apr 2007 03:08

If AnandK is going to claim that KR Narayanan's case was an isolated incident, here is another example of Dr. palpu. Also it debunks the myth that Anand was trying to perpetrate here that casteism was even more severe under direct british rule compared to the meriful maharajs

http://www.geocities.com/guruforum/drpalpu.htm
Kerala State. He remains ever an example of the persecution that the backward communities suffered in Kerala in those days. Though he came fourth in the examination conducted in 1884 by the Govt. for selecting ten students for the study of medicine, Palpu was denied the opportunity just because of his caste. But, he had no difficulty in getting admission to the Madras Medical College for the L.M.S. course. After getting the medical degree, he was again rebuffed by the Travancore Government when he applied for job in his native state. He was forced out to the neighboring state of Mysore for his employment just as he was sent out of the State for his higher education. He started his meritorious service under Mysore Govt. at the starting salary of Rs.100 when the Govt. of his own State would not give employment to any one from the backward classes even at the lowest level at the meager salary of five rupees.
......
‘Malayali Memorial’ which was submitted to the Maharaja of Travancore in 1891 marked the beginning of the united social effort in the state to press the demands of the backward classes. This mass petition in which Dr. Palpu was the third signatory complained about the ‘Divans’ (govt. officers) who came from outside the state, and appropriated a greater part of the jobs for their own people. The memorandum spoke about the pitiable condition of Ezhavas of the State who were denied even the lowest govt. jobs though their counterparts could occupy even higher jobs in the Malabar State due to the absence of any discrimination there The Govt. in its reply dated 1891 April 21st stated that since the Ezhavas were generally uneducated, it was better for them to pursue their present occupations like cultivation, coir making, and toddy tapping than trying to get education.



Hopefully Anand will stop propagating myth about travancore maharajas and their progressive attitudes now.

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Postby vsudhir » 08 Apr 2007 03:15

Sajan/Ceaser whatever,

Caste discrimination existed in the past. It may do so even today, in pockets here and there.

Nobody here (broadly speaking) supports caste discrimination. It is a social evil and should be purged from our social fabric.

The Travencore Maharajahs were imperfect people. So? Their mistakes are now Hindu/UC dogma? How? since when? Some here may mistakenly attempt defending the mistakes of these travencorians. That is their prerogative and their problem. My question is, what is your point exactly?

Its possible, just possible, that you may actually have a point to make. So, what is it? If I have misread your intent regarding a purpose on your part, let me know.

/Have a nice day.

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Postby pradeepe » 08 Apr 2007 03:15

Re. the flag. Aditya. Me thinks you have an agenda and have been looking for pegs to nail it down.

This issue to me doesnt belong in the religion thread at all. My issue was plain and simple. Why are you dragging religion into this. Please stop.

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Postby Tilak » 08 Apr 2007 03:16

Sajan wrote:As most of the discussion here proves very well, whether evangelicals or those fearing evangelicals, it is all about "strength in numbers". :D


Yes, but Evanjihadi's in Ventura parlance will get "Smacked Down with chairs" :oops:

Sajan wrote:perpetrate here that casteism was even more severe under direct british rule compared to the meriful maharajs


The same "Christian" british who put "Indian's and dogs not allowed" sign's ??. [Indians - Hindu's, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians incl..]. :D
Last edited by Tilak on 08 Apr 2007 03:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Greg » 08 Apr 2007 03:21

@Alok_ N

all motifs in physics are unscientific by their nature ... take the picture of atoms that show a nucleus with orbiting electrons ... it is essentially wrong ... some civilization, 3000 years hence would laugh at the stupid symbol ... similarly, when you think of a god with 4 hands or 4 heads etc, try to understand that symbol rather than just laugh at it ...


When Von Behring first reported his findings indicating a presence of antibodies in the mammalian serum, he described a model of antibody structure that, based on today’s knowledge is indeed inaccurate. However his work is deemed scientifically ground-breaking because it advanced our understanding of immunity in a manner that was conducive to progressive and ever-more accurate discoveries. The same can be probably be said of Rutherford’s representation of atomic structure. But the analogy to Gods and Godesses with four arms and heads is harebrained because the ideas and framework that such symbols represented have not led to a meaningful scientific advance in the last 3000 years.

In any case, I am not laughing at these symbolic motifs in Hindu scriptures. This type of symbolism was primarily designed to introduce the readers (or listeners) to a Hindu code of ethics and morality. From that standpoint, they have done their job and catalyzed a highly tolerant civilization that has survived tumultuous times without enslaving another people or commiting an ethnocide on its minorities. My main point has been and remains that Hindu scriptures, however important from a metaphysical standpoint, are roughly just as unscientific as scriptures that emerged from other religious philosophies. As I mentioned earlier, to compare and contrast the scientific credentials of religious scriptures is discuss which bacterial strain is most similar to hippopotamus.

as for texts, there are various levels ... if you have a question about an explanation in the Ramayana (which I believe is a lower level text) then you should seek the answer in the Vedanta ... would you like to learn cutting edge biology from an elementary school textbook?


I fully expect elementry school textbooks on sciences to be at least on the right track and simplify only to introduce concepts and principles that would enable the students to access the material in more advanced texts. The point is that the path painted by these introductory texts leads to specific and explicitly stated scientific understanding. Does transition from Ramayana to Vedanta lead to explicitly outlined scientific understanding or does it simply lead to just another body of arcane symbolism that requires allegoric interpretation? And what scientific knowledge can be distilled from the entire body of Hindu scriptures?

as for your lengthy claims of "commercialization" etc, please understand that $1B is peanuts ... the industry spawned by Quantum Mechanics is measured in trillions of $$ ...


Historically, the overall economic contribution of chemistry and biology would include oil and gas industry, chemical industry, pharmaceutical and biotech industry, plastics, rubber industry and so on. The valuation would likely dwarf the industry spawned by quantum mechanics. But you seem to have missed the main point. The company that was valued at $1B is one of hundreds of biotech companies that are started by biologists and chemists who make important discoveries in an explosive area of science. These discoveries are a rapidly growing body of intellectual property that is protected by law for the express purpose of commercialization.

Physicists who discovered quantum mechanics and those who now study fundamental physics don’t get to patent the laws of physics or their understanding of absolute reality (Vedantic or not) and to profit from it. Most of these physicists will have to remain satisfied discussing the virtues and shortcomings of linear and cyclical models of time with ganja-smoking sadhus. The contrived comparision to a whore’s income that you seemed to enjoy is much more apt here I am afraid. :)

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 03:25

similarly, when you think of a god with 4 hands or 4 heads etc, try to understand that symbol rather than just laugh at it


It seems to me that most practitioners of the faith, have a different, likely "unscientific" view of these multi-capitalized-multi-limbed images.

Secondly, has the "understanding" of the symbol *led* to new scientific understanding, or is scientific understanding been seen in the symbol post-facto?

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Postby mandrake » 08 Apr 2007 03:37

vsudhir wrote:Sajan/Ceaser whatever,

Caste discrimination existed in the past. It may do so even today, in pockets here and there.

Nobody here (broadly speaking) supports caste discrimination. It is a social evil and should be purged from our social fabric.

The Travencore Maharajahs were imperfect people. So? Their mistakes are now Hindu/UC dogma? How? since when? Some here may mistakenly attempt defending the mistakes of these travencorians. That is their prerogative and their problem. My question is, what is your point exactly?

Its possible, just possible, that you may actually have a point to make. So, what is it? If I have misread your intent regarding a purpose on your part, let me know.

/Have a nice day.


Caste exists among Muslims as well in India, the infamous Zamindari system.

I know many teachers who enjoy more than general caste peoples.

See all these caste/waste is Bull, Caste is a means of extracting more from already the poverty stricken peoples.

You dont see peoples are going gung-ho over this caste in educated and better off families, but they are more hindu than the iliterates are.

Poverty and illiteracy gives your opponent who is powerful and has money the chance to use whatever as a means of tool to extract most from you.

Caste system has been hjacked as well for centuries.

Problem is peoples are addressing the caste system only, not the poverty,and why the system was hijacked by 200 years of british manipulated system of caste.

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Postby JwalaMukhi » 08 Apr 2007 03:42

Calvin wrote:
similarly, when you think of a god with 4 hands or 4 heads etc, try to understand that symbol rather than just laugh at it


It seems to me that most practitioners of the faith, have a different, likely "unscientific" view of these multi-capitalized-multi-limbed images.

Secondly, has the "understanding" of the symbol *led* to new scientific understanding, or is scientific understanding been seen in the symbol post-facto?


Just because people who have been schooled to learn that letter "A" stands for "Abraham" alone and nothing else will have issues with deciphering "A" to be anything other than Abraham. Having said that, a chemical reaction when symoblically represented using letters will confuse even more to the graduates of that school and would seem like some ganja smokers have played with letters.

Well, just to be sure the "understanding" has led to the symoblism to capture that understanding and not other way round. In any case evenif no understanding was forthcoming, they have definitely not come up with 4000 year old earth history.

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Postby Tilak » 08 Apr 2007 03:46

joey wrote:Caste exists among Muslims as well in India, the infamous Zamindari system.


Caste system among Indian Christians
In some parts of India, Christians are stratified by sect, location, and the castes of their predecessors. For instance, the Syrian Nasrani Christians in South India retain the middle caste status in society. Starting from the 16th century, Portuguese missionaries converted some of the lower-castes to Christianity[1].

Presently in India, more than 70% of Christians are Dalits, but the higher caste Christians (30% by estimates) control 90% of the catholic churches administrative jobs [1]. Out of the 156 catholic bishops, only 6 are from lower castes[2][1].


ARCHBISHOP ARULAPPA CONDEMNS VATICAN FOR PROMOTING A DALIT BISHOP AS HIS SUCCESSOR IN HYDERABAD, INDIA :)

Recently Vatican has promoted Bishop Marampudi Joji of Vijaywada as the Archbishop of Hyderabad to succeed Archbishop Arulappa. Bishop Joji is a dalit bishop from Andra Predesh. In India, there are 156 bishops in the Catholic church which has a population of 25 million. Except 6 bishops, the rest of them are coming from the upper caste community. Even these six bishops were appointed very recently by Vatican through the pressure given by 20 million dalit Christians of India who form 75% of the total Catholic population. [b]Yet in the Indian catholic church, both in the hierarchy and in the structure, dalit Christians have no place at all. The whole Catholic structure has been invaded by the upper caste community.[/b] Vatican was totally ignorant of this fact. It is only recently that the upper caste bishops unwillingly recommended six dalit priests as bishops in order to yield to the pressure of the dalit Christians. Generally Vatican accepted candidates proposed by the bishops in India but Vatican was totally ignorant of the fact that caste played the crucial role in the recommendation of the bishops. For example: In Tamilnadu, out of 16 bishops, only three are dalit bishops.

Now the appointment of a dalit bishop as the archbishop of Hyderabad has irritated both Arulappa, the upper caste bishop who is retiring after a lengthy period. The upper caste clergy and the people are furious over Vatican for promoting a dalit to a metropolitan area. One has to remember that in Andra Predesh, 85% of the Catholics are dalits. Yet dalits are not respected. The remarks of Arulappa betrays his caste fanaticism with which he ruled over his diocese all these years. He goes to the extent of condemning the decision of Vatican for promoting a dalit as an Archbishop for the first time. He has already set timeline that Joji would not even last in Hyderabad for five years. Above all these, he has accused the dalit bishop Joji that he would work only for dalits. Is it not the reflection of his own strategy by which he has been supporting his own caste men and women during his tenure?

In fact, Arulappa was himself not a native of Andra Predesh. He hails from Velacherry, Tamilnadu, from the archdiocese of Madras. He was an ordinary priest in the parish of Veperi. But he was directly promoted as the archbishop of Hyderabad. The only criteria for him was that he was an upper caste priest, belonging to the Naidu community. He was recommended by another upper caste bishop, Mark Gopu, a Reddi from Thatchoor to continue the caste lineage. Although Arulappa was an outsider, the people of Andra Predesh accepted him as their Bishop. Now Joji, a native of Andra Predesh is appointed to succeed him. All the more, Joji is the first dalit archbishop appointed by Vatican in India. Vatican is at least realising her mistakes of the past and correcting her ways. Instead of welcoming bishop Joji to the diocese, Archbishop Arulappa and his upper caste group are maneuvering the situation. Is it not hypocrisy on the part of Arulappa to have lived all his life with this kind of deep caste mentality? Is he not betraying his own Indian bishops who declared that caste discrimination is denial of Christianity and inhuman? It is tragedy that bishop Arulappa could not digest the fact of a dalit becoming as his successor. Was he truly a representative of Christ during his tenure as the bishop of Hyderabad? Was he merely an hypocrite, perpetuating caste mentality within the church? This is only a sample of larger issues with which the Indian church is struggling with. It reveals the fact how caste plays a vital role in the Catholic church of India. It indicates how the dalit Christians have been suffering martyrdom all these years in their own churches. Even during this Jubilee year, on 23rd January 2000, the Catholic Bishops Conference of India asked every Christian to eradicate untouchability and caste mentality which is a sinful reality". :shock: Yet the shepherd sets a bad example for his flock to follow the footsteps of Jesus in our daily life. If so, how can the kingdom of God will flourish in country that has several million non-Christians?
Last edited by Tilak on 08 Apr 2007 03:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Abhijit » 08 Apr 2007 03:53

Similarly, if you question the popular hagiography in this forum, it becomes hatred for hindus!!

You still haven't answered my question. Let me repeat it for the third time. Why do you hate hindus, especially upper caste hindus so much?
If you answer this question instead of attacking other forum members we may have a possibility of a debate.

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 03:58

the "understanding" has led to the symoblism to capture that understanding and not other way round.


People often see images in the clouds. A lot of what one sees, depends on where one sits, and is not as much a commentary on the object of one's observation as it is on oneself.

What is stated above, is effectively a hypothesis, and until someone can show that by deciphering the symbology they can reveal something new to the prevailiing scientific paradigm, one doesn't really have a proof of the hypothesis.

Often times sites like "debka" (for instance) will highlight those predictions they got right, and sweep under the carpet those that they got wrong. Until they get every prediction right, they cannot be said to have the inside track to Intelligence in the region. The same principle can be extended to this particular discussion on science and dharma.

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Postby Calvin » 08 Apr 2007 04:01

Why do you hate hindus, especially upper caste hindus so much?


This is a LOADED QUESTION - a logical fallacy, like the "when did you stop beating your wife" question. As anyone knows, loaded questions are to be treated with the derision they deserve, perhaps with a riposte in the same abominable tradition such as "when did you stop hating lower caste hindus?" or "when did you stop hating christians and muslims?"

A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption. The question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife. If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded.

Since this example is a yes/no question, there are only the following two direct answers:

"Yes, I have stopped beating my wife", which entails "I was beating my wife."

"No, I haven't stopped beating my wife", which entails "I am still beating my wife."

Thus, either direct answer entails that you have beaten your wife, which is, therefore, a presupposition of the question. So, a loaded question is one which you cannot answer directly without implying a falsehood or a statement that you deny. For this reason, the proper response to such a question is not to answer it directly, but to either refuse to answer or to reject the question.


http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

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Postby JE Menon » 08 Apr 2007 04:08

The flag issue, as I understand it, is a matter of law. Right now the law is quite clear about it. Based on what has been posted, it seems quite clear that auntie is breaking the law...

What exactly is the issue here?

If one is saying that attachment to anything should not be absolute as a general principle, that is fine - and applies to all things including "God" - be that Vishnu, Christ or Allah or anyone else...

And on that basis, if the law about the flag should be changed, go ahead and do what needs to be done...via the democratic methods available. Not by breaking the law. You could do that as well, but do be prepared for the consequences.

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Postby JwalaMukhi » 08 Apr 2007 04:09

and until someone can show that by deciphering the symbology they can reveal something new to the prevailiing scientific paradigm, one doesn't really have a proof of the hypothesis


No need that something new has to be revealed. It could just be to help explain something old. A simple equation when symoblically represented for example E= mC^2 does not have reveal something new everytime one looks at it.


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